This isn't a complaint. The character in question is a solidly built fighter with a high AC, but the player isn't pulling weird feats, equipment, or magic items to achieve the AC, so it's not like a cheese thing. I'm sure other groups have similar characters.
My situation is thus:
My party is 8th level. Most party members have ACs in the low 20's, which is where you'd expect it. The fighter is rocking a 29 AC with his armor, feat bonuses, Dex, shield, and magic items. It's higher, usually, during combat, and someone hastes or buffs him. And the player is smart. He'll fight defensively at times, and even takes a total defense more than I've seen with any other character. It's his build, and he plays it well.
But...
As an example, last night I ran a combat with a CR 10 creature. For the fight, after buffs from the Sorcerer, Druid, and Cleric, the fighter was rocking a 34 AC. This guy, Mr. Billy Bad-A himself, had three attacks at +16, which would have murder-raped the rest of the party, but in the 9 rounds of combat this fight dragged on, the beast managed to hit the fighter 3 times. When it got the occasional swipes at the other party members, it couldn't miss, but I couldn't land a blow on the fighter. The creature's minions needed a Nat 20 to hit the fighter, even with flanking and haste, only having a +13 to hit. They managed to hit the rest of the party occasionally, but other than critical threats, unable to touch the fighter.
This, to me, is a worrisome trend. Most encounters I can come up with involve creatures that need a Nat 20 to hit the fighter. If I use creatures with a higher attack bonus, they'll have trouble missing even the reasonably ACed other party members. So in pure melee / physical encounters, the fighter is actually burdened by his group, as he'd be better tanking all the attacks and the group would be wasting less resources. The options seem limited:
1. Keep playing as normal and need Nat 20's to hit the fighter.
2. Use creatures with higher attack bonuses and have trouble missing the other characters.
I realize I can do dickish things like Sunder his gear constantly, but I already rolled up a foil for the fighter, his nemesis, who focuses on Sunder. Grappling is out as the Druid always keeps a Freedom of Movement prepped. Spellcasting doesn't seem to work because of how easy it is to silence a caster (It's hard to stay away from a hasted, silenced fighter and a trip focused, whip-wielding bard). And it's not that I want to kill anyone, or disallow them to play their character concepts, but I want to be able to challenge the entire party.
Disarm, touch attacks, silent spells, will saves. a defensive tank, played defensively, should be hard to hit, physically at least. Make a combat using shadows of the party, see how they handle it. can be like an overlord watching these fighters, learning how to combat them.
Will saves?
Area of effect, reflex saves?
Dispel Magic?
Rince and repeat.
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Shadow, Greater x2 = CR 10. AKA the mid-level front-line fighter killer.
Also, never forget the value of many weaker foes (preferably with sneak attack) all flanking and using Aid Another: surround him and watch him weep as the one that's about to hit him racks up a juicy +16 to hit from flanking and Aid Another.
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Can't hit the fighter? Stop attacking the fighter. Even dumb opponents will eventually wise-up to the concept that bashing your head against a brick wall is counter-productive.
You could also put the team against high AC targets and see how they deal with it. Anything that drags out a fight increases the chances of rolling those nat 20s.
Silent spells are definitely great, and keep an eye out for those that simply don't have verbal components to begin with. And then there are spell-like abilities.
EDIT: Swarms? Maybe not at 8th level, though.
@OP - How much damage is the fighter doing? I think intelligent foes would probably try to get around him to instead attack squishier party members.
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Let him. Don't increase the attack bonus of your enemies to try to hit him. He invested in this for a reason, so he deserves to feel invulnerable.
If you want to challenge him, challenge him not on his strengths, but on his weaknesses. How are his saves? Will he always be able to prevent baddies from reaching his casters?
In warfare, you don't waste all your resources trying to breach a pillbox. If you can't take it, you go around it.
It sounds like this group is well organized and plays smart. That's good! Of course you could challenge them by increasing the numbers, but it's much more fun to challenge them with fights for which their standard tactics don't work. Flying creatures can attack anyone, not just the fighter. And trip doesn't work so well on fliers either.
What is his touch AC? Our evil GM popped us with a pair of ropers once when our ACs passed 30. Ouch! Snatch and drop into the underground pool to drown.
Touch opponents are but one answer, you'll want some others to keep the game lively.
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Most fights, do nothing. Like mcv said, he's invested a lot into making the character. Don't take it away from him
Occasionally, throw in spellcasters and touch attacks. Don't forget NPCs can use aid other and there are teamwork feats that can boost the effectiveness of aid other and flanking.
Aid other is a great tactic that can allow you to hit the tank without overpowering the rest of the group.
Let them have their moment of invincability becouse it fades fast at higher levels and remimber 20 on the die is an hit no matter what.
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I have a level 8 fighter in PFS.
He has a 31 AC, with a 15 touch so touch attacks are a pain. But if he's like me he's probably boosted his saves too. With ghost touch on his weapon incoporeals are a breeze. So what is the threat? Fliers, fliers are the bane of my existence. I have good dex but my heavy shield makes it impossible to use a bow. So fliers can neutralize me pretty easily. If you have fliers who can get past your fighter and hit his back line before he can get in position to defend them you make his AC a weakness rather than a strength
His damage output shouldn't be that high when he has that much defense at this level, so have the enemies just ignore him after the first attempt to hit him fails.
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I'd hate to hear about a player getting "special treatment" based solely on good decisions and tactics.
But swarms ignore armor class, maybe make a swarm of Spell Resisting critters.
Incorperals poop on tanks that don't have appropiate armor, specifically there is the Witchfire that our DM threw at us and it roasted my armored jabroni keester!
Also you could alter the Young Red Dragon a little and give it some grapple feats and fly off with the fighter (or anyone really). He may have to use one of his 3 true strikes to accomplish the grapple.
Just don't pick on the poor guy/gal, I had a DM decide that every thing we came up against suddenly "had that feat" that let it hit the 28+ AC monk. It was completely excessive to the point that the little CR 6 Monks flurry looked like +20/+20/+6/+6. (On a side note I don't think understands the whole attacks descending by +5).
Finally if the fighter continues to frustrate you, just sneak into their house at night and beat them with a stick. :D
Grapple him. Sure, the Druid has freedom of movement prepared. Make him cast it. Then dispel it. Or it may wear off Ina few hours -- grapple him _then_
Try nets to entangle him. Pit traps and opponents bull rushing him toward them. Some opponents use touch attacks.
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It's always worth considering how smart your opponents are. Animals and stupid monsters won't know the difference between one fleshy human thing and another, but humanoids are likely to figure out pretty quickly who they can hurt and who they can't.
It might be fun to emphasize this to the group by having some leader figure shout at the others: "Leave the ironclad one! Get the others!" or "Don't hit him, tackle him! Take him to the ground!" It makes sense that the most strategically inclined enemy figures this out first and tells the others, but it also explains to your players what's going on.
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Here's another question.
If that fighter was rocking a DPR build and butchering your BBEG in 2 rounds tops of attacks, also getting hit 3 times, would you still be complaining?
A 9 round combat. Wow. That's EPIC. Think of all the resources the party is burning trying to win that fight over that time period. He's actually using tactics and playing it smart.
And it sounds like they are having a good time. So LET THEM.
There are a ton of ways around a high AC. Use them when you need them, but otherwise, let them shine and have fun.
==Aelryinth
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I've got a similar situation with my party, which was also level 8 until the end of our last session and just leveled up to level 9. The party paladin has a base AC of 32, and he's pretty ineffective offensively unless he can smite. He is also a very good player and uses tactics effectively. I deliberately avoid metagaming my encounters to exploit his low saves and low touch AC. I build my encounters according to what "makes sense" for my world. The end result has been that the paladin has been a very effective tank. With all his own and other part buffs his AC has gone as high as 37. There have been many encounters where none of my monsters or NPCs can hit him without a natural 20.
But he's only one character and can only control a limited part of the battlefield. So while it is extremely difficult to hit him, which extends combats significantly, the rest of the party is like sitting ducks. If I beefed up encounters to hit him, the rest of the party would be pounded to oblivion. So what I tend to do is have the biggest or one of the biggest monsters tie him up and then the rest of the party has to deal with the rest of the bad guys.
However, in our last session's major encounter the party ran across some giant flying grappling snakes, and the largest one managed to grapple him and carry him away from the rest of the party. That pretty much took him out of the fight entirely. He and the large snake had a good time with grapple checks and self-healing while the rest of the party was in a serious fight that required their full attention and resources.
Just because of the layout of the campaign, they will next be encountering an area infested with undead, and it will be interesting to see how he deals with touch AC opponents who can make him cry without caring about his super AC.
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There are plenty of ways around high Ac but what I find worrisome is the mind set of "My player focused on being good at this! How do I negate all his work and his whole concept?"
Seriously lets not punish someone for putting forth a lot of effort to be pretty good at defending his friends.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Advanced chaos beast with a buffing-buddy. Four attacks per round, and a single failed save drops his AC to single digits.
I'd say: Give them a variety of challenges and keep things realistic. Don't tailor your foes to this one specific character: Some fights will end up as cakewalks, just as a party with a strong paladin or high save DC caster would stroll through some types of fights with little effort.
As others have noted, many foes (even some animals) will switch to less direct tactics once directly damaging the fighter proves impossible. Have them use combat maneuvers against him, make an "end run" around him, or hammer him with special abilities. (I wouldn't take sundering entirely off the table, either, but wouldn't resort to it often. It's a mistake for characters to become too dependent on one or two items of gear.)
Also, make the terrain a more important part of your fights. The world is full of places that aren't well suited for heavily-armored warriors: The party will generally overcome such situations, but they'll burn through resources doing it.
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First of all it is not just the fighter that is involved. You stated that after being buffed by a Cleric, a Druid, and a Sorcerer was when his AC went to unhittable. At that point you have four players involved which means everyone is contributing to the combat. If he was able to achieve this on his own then maybe there might be a problem. By having the other players boost the fighter they are using good tactics and should not be punished. When all players are involved in winning the combat you have challenged the whole group not just one player.
If the other players where summoning up creatures to fight the BBEG and none of the casters where threatened because they were protected by their summoned creatures would you feel the same way? The fact that everyone is not being attacked and rolling to hit does not mean they are not involved. As long as no one is getting bored with the combat you are good.
One thing I would do is check to make sure the buff's are legal. Keep in mind that bonuses of the same kind do not stack. If he has an amulet of natural armor the druid's bark skin does not stack with it.
I don't think you should negate all his hard work and good build. But he needs to be challenged occaisionally also or it gets boring.
Maybe some group just throws a bunch of sticky/hooked nets over him then ignores him while they go after the others.
Or drops a wall behind him and infront of the others.
Drop the whole group in a flooded passage.
Flying alchemist dropping bombs on them.
Without being spiteful, try to turn the tables on them. Have an enemy with a similarly high AC.
See how your players is going to work around it, and get some inspiration.
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I have a level 8 fighter in PFS.
He has a 31 AC, with a 15 touch so touch attacks are a pain. But if he's like me he's probably boosted his saves too. With ghost touch on his weapon incoporeals are a breeze. So what is the threat? Fliers, fliers are the bane of my existence. I have good dex but my heavy shield makes it impossible to use a bow. So fliers can neutralize me pretty easily. If you have fliers who can get past your fighter and hit his back line before he can get in position to defend them you make his AC a weakness rather than a strength
Potions of fly and strength-based one-handed ranged weapons (such as javelins or chakram) can help against the occasional fliers. Also, if anyone gets past you to the back line, having the Bodyguard feat and the benevolent armor property can go a LONG ways towards protecting your mates. Throw in Iron Will, Greater Iron Will, a cap of the free thinker and a headband of unshakeable resolve, and you will have a well-rounded fighter more than capable of protecting himself and his allies.
The creature's minions needed a Nat 20 to hit the fighter, even with flanking and haste, only having a +13 to hit.
Let's say you can trip the fighter (I'm guessing his CMD isn't as high as his AC) and you have flanking from a minion - effectively +6 to hit. The +16 boss would then need a 12 to hit AC 34. If you also have three minions doing Aid Another, the boss would be hitting on a 6.
Sounds like your PC is doing his job very well. No need to single him out for meta-game targeting. His schtick works great, and it seems to involve most of the group, based on the sheer number of people buffing him. That's desirable play, and you do not want to be shutting that down. That said, there are ways a smart villain can get around a character like his. Most enemies shouldn't be doing this, but if now and again the party is going up against a tactical mastermind, you have some ways to sidestep around him.
His CMB will high, but its not likely *that* high, and the fancypants armor does no good at all against touch attacks. Flank and you can almost certainly trip him, grapple him, or net him, then dogpile minions to attack him while he's at a disadvantage. This was historically a common way conscripts were used to defeat armored warriors. His saves are probably not too great either. Disabling spells like entangle, hold person, or worse, charm person will do the trick, but you should definitely not use those very often - those are complete shutdown options, and they can suck the energy right out of a game when you use them on players. For a less brutal version, have an enemy caster try to dispel his buffs.
If you've got a little tactical creativity, you can also try walling him off from the group with some obstacle. You might also try using one enemy to force him to defend one of the party's flanks, then attack the other flank with a second threat. He can only be in one place at a time, and if he's buffed, that's a sizable fraction of the party resources. And of course, you can always have guys who just ignore him and go directly after the squishies instead. Ranged attacks are especially good for that.
I am curious on his build...
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It's all fun and games until you realize what his Will Save is
Then it's just him crying uncontrollably while you dominate his character into murdering his own party members
I'M SORRY *CRUNCH*
IT'S NOT MY FAULT *SLASH*
I FAILED MY SAVE, I'LL MAKE SURE YOU GET A GOOD BURIAL *SPLORCH*
I mean, if you're the type of GM that gains sustenance from the delicious sobbed-out tears of your own players, that is
I'm not here to judge
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It's all fun and games until you realize what his Will Save isThen it's just him crying uncontrollably while you dominate his character into murdering his own party members
I'M SORRY *CRUNCH*
IT'S NOT MY FAULT *SLASH*
I FAILED MY SAVE, I'LL MAKE SURE YOU GET A GOOD BURIAL *SPLORCH*I mean, if you're the type of GM that gains sustenance from the delicious sobbed-out tears of your own players, that is
I'm not here to judge
Note to self: if ever gaming with Lamotius make an early investment in a clear spindle ioun stone and a wayfinder.
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Not sure if this has been mentioned but build a squad of halflings with the Helpful Halfling trait and have them use the aid another action to boost the attack of one attacker, only an AC 10. Do this 3 to 4 times and then you have an attacker who can hit like a truck.
I agree you sould let the player have his fun with a high AC.
But every, now and again design an encounter that will challage not counter his build...
Swarms, fireballs, ranged touch attack, magic missiles, channel neg. energy, confusion, burning disarm, let intellegent foes target his allies (i like the leader making orders to ignore him idea).
And when fighting him - use PA and fighting defensively (you only hit on a nat 20 anyway)
use creatures with plenty of attack - just add armor spikes on a fighter and let him TWF (with all the penalties).
Debuff him so he can't hit if he is using fighting defensively.
And yes it's okay to change encounter so they pose a threat to the players. Had a party with a syntesist, a pal/syntesist and a duel cursed battle oracle- nothing could hit the syntesists unless they rolled a natural 20 - and when they did - the oracle would use his misfortune ability... No one complained when evil clerics started to channel neg energy...
I've seen a tank fighter in my games and the AC does get high around level 8. I've noticed at level 8 a tanking fighter can boost their AC by as much a 5 points if not more if their AC was lower to begin with.
I wouldn't worry about it though. Let the fighter enjoy being unstoppable, it won't last. Throw in the odd touch attack to keep things a challenge but don't over do it. Let the fighter shine. 3 levels from now that AC won't matter.
Some (12) rogue archers with Inubrix arrows kicked the crap out of the AC fighters in our Shattered Star campaign. Inubrix ignores all armor and shield bonuses. Use a few if you ever want to wound him a little. Also Inubrix means the weapon does one size category smaller in damage and has the broken condition.
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Some (12) rogue archers with Inubrix arrows kicked the crap out of the AC fighters in our Shattered Star campaign. Inubrix ignores all armor and shield bonuses. Use a few if you ever want to wound him a little. Also Inubrix means the weapon does one size category smaller in damage and has the broken condition.
I thought Inubrix just ignored metal?
It's a balance. As a fighter that just happens to be what they are good at. 32 AC for me. do you know what makes me cringe? When I hear the Gm say "Will save!".
Dire Rats... Censored... Sweet...
His immense AC will dwindle with time... you can get it only so far, then the arms race just passed ac.... dont fret the advantage diminishes soon
It does diminish but it still helps out either way.
Diminish? Getting AC up to 60 is frighteningly easy. Almost nothing published can hit that.