Which skill(s) do you think is/are underwhelming, underdevelopped... or downright useless?
I might get hated for that, but I seriously think that both Craft and Profession are underwhelming, underdevelopped... and downright useless.
Why? Crafting is LOOOOOOONG, for nothing. A longsword should take 1 day to forge, no more. Due to the time it takes to make, you'd be better off buying the item you item instead of crafting them. Furthermore, the skill lacks elements that would make items better. I remember in a Dragon issue (358, I think), there was an article about adding non-magical enhancements to items with expert crafting skills.
Why? Profession... is useless, it has no use. Which adventurer is gonna stop adventuring to work? Furthermore, aside from questions about the profession you're doing, there's no skill check nor related bonus to these. (Brewer) doesn't give you a bonus to identify a faulty drink or even in Alchemy; (Baker) and (Cook) don't have you prepare specific meals that grants temporary bonuses, and I actually expected to get a list of 10, 15 or even 20 meals that would use these skills; (Gardener) and (Herbalist) don't give you bonuses to identify plants and deal with plant creatures; (Librarian) doesn't give you bonuses to Gather Information and Search releated to books; (Merchant) doesn't give you bonuses to check item values; (Miner) doesn't give you bonuses to identify mineral structures; and so forth... Profession is just not used efficiently enough to be even considered when selecting your skills.
I said my opinion, what about yours?
Perform - it's nine separate skills.
I don't have bards in my games so it's a moot point but on the rare occasion it has come up I house rule that when Perform is needed for a check it's the sum of the individual perform skills. Only when it is specific to a type of performance does it count against the specific skill.
If I did allow bards I would seriously consider cutting their skill points by 1 and giving them 3 Perform skill points to allocate amongst the different performance skills.
I agree with the OP on Craft, it's broken. I quite like profession as a skill though. But I house rule it so that a profession skill can be added to another skill to give a healthy bonus when making a check. So a Profession (Carpenter) would give a bonus to Craft (woodwork) or Profession (Gambler) gives a bonus to some Knowledge (Local) checks, sleight of hand checks, perception, bluff or sense motive checks that are gambling related.
profession sailor is super useful in Skulls and shackles ,but i guess its a campaign by campaign basis.
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Stealth is actually a pretty bad skill if people ran it the way it's supposed to be run.Stealth is good if you run it the way it's supposed to be run, only when people try to be RAW maniac there can be problems.
The problem is everyone I've ever played with runs Stealth like it's World of Warcraft, a skill you just turn on or off and you suddenly are invisible.
Stealth does not work that way.
I can't tell you how many times I've been playing and people are like "I Stealth over there" and it's like "how do you stop the guard from seeing you" and the response is "I'm stealthing...duh" to which I wanna reply "Across an open courtyard in broad daylight with no cover or concealment."
And they look at me like I'M the stupid one.
Well heck, it's been a bit since this was dredged up...
Please note on page four I break out the craft skill and a commoner 2 can make 28.5gp a day in equipment. Someone that's actually build to be a crafter can do much (much) better.
Say human for the 1/2 level bonus on craft, skill focus and the 2 for 2 feat a trait some decent intelligence etc and you'll easily be making a sword a day.
However in my games I usually run a "trade" skill instead of profession, appraise, or craft.
I replace diplomacy, bluff and intimidate with persuasion and subterfuge.
"Profession X doesn't give you bonuses in A, B, C..."
My question - Why not? Maybe the two GMs I've played with have been doing it their own way, but I've always been able to use Profession for the very things you listed. Plus, say there's a half day with nothing going on, roll Profession and get a little extra gold. I like it.
As a GM I love Appraise but it takes a bit of work with Excel. Usually the group divvies up loot after the session via email and I give them all their individual valuations.
Makes dividing the loot more entertaining, especially as the emails fly back and forth so it's worth the effort.
Bluff.
It's a good NPC skill I guess.
Why? Crafting is LOOOOOOONG,
The most broken item in the game requires a craft skill
(and by broken I mean a huge, positive cash flow when using the item).I personally find all professions, minus sailor, to be a complete waste. Appraise and intimidate are rarely used in the campaigns I have been in.
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Bluff is a pretty useful skill if you can be creative... I often use it to confuse NPCs into giving me information. Or convincing them I'm on their side. I also use Bluff as "Seduction" (a case could be made about using Diplomacy instead, but I see Bluff as more fit for a one-night-stand deal and Diplomacy for an actual romance).
Intimidate is pretty good too. It's basically Diplomacy for people you don't like (and/or who don't like you). And shaken is a decent debuff... -2 to all attack rolls and saves is pretty disturbing. Cornugon Smash makes it very useful.
Craft/Profession are nearly useless by RAW, but I usually give my players the kind of bonus the OP mentioned if they have a rank in a relevant skill (e.g.: a bonus to gather info at the library if they have ranks in Profession(Librarian) or bonus to identify tastes/smells of different food ingredients if they have a rank in Profession(Cook).)
It's unfortunate that by RAW, some skills are so amazing (Perception and UMD) and others are just a waste of skill ranks. But with a little creativity and a good GM who enjoys seeing said creativity, those skills can be both fun and useful.
They won't be UMD, though... heh
Appraise is the most useless. Ride is junk unless you're specifically mounted. The knowledges that aren't used to identify monsters and aren't History are also pretty lousy.
A lot of the skills usefulness depends on the GM and the scenario. I tend to drop hints (or outright give information) via the Knowledge skills, which aid the players in the campaign.
Swim is almost useless in a desert campaign, Fly is useless if you can't etc so it's difficult to call the situational ones junk.
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Appraise is almost universally rubbish, I'd rather just tell the players what things are worth because I don't want to have to keep track of that.
Craft and Profession skills often get play in my games, as does Perform. Some of the knowledges are just locked story gates that prevent PCs from learning backstory and that's a problem. I'd rather just replace most knowledges with Monster Lore & Research (players need to roll Research checks in the wild to see if they've learned something in their past, otherwise can take 10 or 20 in a library/place of learning), and tell people backstory if it fits with what their character might know.
Appraise.
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Why would you as the GM have to keep track of the value of the appraised item? Isn't that the player's responsibility?
If a PC fails the Appraise check on the golden idol they find in the dungeon (thinking it's worth 110 gp when it's really worth 150 gp) then the player holds onto it long enough to gain a level (and another rank in Appraise) and wants to Appraise the idol again I have to go back through my notes to the original page where I put the idol (assuming I didn't add it in to help players meet WBL).
Suffice to say, it's one of those skills that's supposed to add realism, but just bogs down gameplay. I'd rather just say: "This is what you got, this is what it's worth what do you want to do next?" Rolling appraise checks just slows things down.
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Why would you as the GM have to keep track of the value of the appraised item? Isn't that the player's responsibility?
If a PC fails the Appraise check on the golden idol they find in the dungeon (thinking it's worth 110 gp when it's really worth 150 gp) then the player holds onto it long enough to gain a level (and another rank in Appraise) and wants to Appraise the idol again I have to go back through my notes to the original page where I put the idol (assuming I didn't add it in to help players meet WBL).
Suffice to say, it's one of those skills that's supposed to add realism, but just bogs down gameplay. I'd rather just say: "This is what you got, this is what it's worth what do you want to do next?" Rolling appraise checks just slows things down.
Can you re-roll appraise checks? That seems very metagamey to me.
"Hey bob, what's this golden statue worth"
"...100 gold."
"That seems low to me Bob. Stick it in your backpack and go wander around for a month, and then try again."
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Meta game is not a dirty word.
Rogue: "I make an Appraise Check." (GM rolls in Secret)
"110 gp"
Wizard: "Let me see that."
"160 gp"
(Actual value 150 gp).
Party tries to sell item many sessions later for 160 gp. GM doesn't remember what the actual value was and doesn't want to hunt through his books. So he just gives the players the money. What a hassle.
When we appraise gems or jewelry or anything else, the appraised value gets written on the player's character sheet. If the GM has a different value he can keep it or not, depending on how detailed the GM wants to be. Usually if we have some situation where an appraised value is wrong, there's some sort of story hook involved.
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Why would you Appraise an item for more than it's worth? You can't sell it for more than it's worth, so what's the point?
I'm not saying Appraise is a great skill, I just don't see how it's a "book-keeping nightmare" for the GM.
From the examples that people have been giving, it just seems like you're creating the "book-keeping nightmare" yourself.
If anything, I think the problem with appraise is that it bogs things down.
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Why would you Appraise an item for more than it's worth? You can't sell it for more than it's worth, so what's the point?
Because you failed your appraise check and think it's worth more than it actually is.
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A while ago I had this discussion with some friends. I'm glad to see we're not the only ones geeking out over this tidbit:)
I copied the skill list and rated everything on a scale of 1-5.
--- --- --- --- --- ---
Rating 5 - Extremely useful skill, worth max ranks for many characters. Having this skill adds a major capability to the character or party. Strongly written game mechanic.
Rating 4 - Useful skill, worth max ranks for some characters. Strongly written game mechanic.
Rating 3 - Average skill, worth a few ranks for many characters or max ranks for a few. Usable game mechanic.
Rating 2 - Infrequently used, easily supplanted with low level spells or powers. Not worth max ranks for almost any character. Weak game mechanic.
Rating 1 - Rarely used, no combat application. Worth few if any ranks for any character. Weak game mechanic.
--- --- --- --- --- ---
5 - Acrobatics
5 - Disable Device
5 - Perception
5 - Stealth
5 - Use Magic Device
4 - Diplomacy
4 - Fly
4 - Intimidate
4 - Spellcraft
4 - Survival
3 - Bluff
3 - Escape Artist
3 - Handle Animal
3 - Heal
3 - Knowledge (Arcana)
3 - Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
3 - Knowledge (Local)
3 - Knowledge (Nature)
3 - Knowledge (Planes)
3 - Knowledge (Religion)
3 - Ride
3 - Sense Motive
2 - Climb
2 - Linguistics*
2 - Swim
1 - Appraise
1 - Craft
1 - Disguise
1 - Knowledge (Engineering)
1 - Knowledge (Geography)
1 - Knowledge (History)
1 - Knowledge (Nobility)
1 - Perform**
1 - Profession
1 - Sleight of Hand
* Summoners of all kinds need a certain limited number of languages for directing their summoned creatures.
** Bard class abilities make Perform extremely useful for that class only.
I mostly agree with Blueluck's evaluation, save for Sense Motive. I'd rank it as (5) rather than (3). Also, swap Knowledge(Dungeoneering) with Knowledge (History). I find the later more useful.
I can understand that. I still don't find it as useful, but then again I haven't encountered many aberrations or oozes in my games. Knowledge (History), however, pops up all the time. Thus, my ranking differs.
I'd definitely put Bluff and Sense Motive up to 4 each, Diplomacy up to 5, and drop Disable Device, probably to 3. Knowledge (History) is the most useful of the useless knowledge skills, so I'd probably give that a 2.
I think Ride and Handle Animal are too situational--if you have neither a mount nor an animal companion, they're basically 1s.
Yus. I like Kn. History mostly because many important checks in my experience go "Kn. History or..." and Kn. History is always better than having to have 5 different "Or..."'s when those are usually Geography, Local, or Nobility anyway.
Though, outside of a Feint maneuver, can someone tell me when Bluff has ever come in handy for them? I've gotten a lot of mileage out of Sense Motive, but I've only seen Bluff in use once. And while it was funny how ridiculous the lie was (and how they believed it after the DC was made), it wasn't something I ever thought "I NEEED that".
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Heh... Perception and UMD should have a tier of their own. They are easily a 6 even when compared to the other powerful skill.
I'd make Sense Motive 4, it's pretty useful to "read the atmosphere" (e.g: "NPC X seems upset, even thouugh he acts politely" or "NPC is telling the truth, but you feel he's hiding something")
I see Survival and Disable Device as 3, they are useful, but you suually don't really need them very often. Heal may be a 3, but just barely. Tracking is a bit meh because if the GM wants you to find something, you'll find it anyway... heh
I'd up Linguistics to 3 as well, not only you get extra languages (always useful and fun!), but it also allows you to make forgeries and decipher ancient texts.
Escape Artist should be a 2. Unless your GM puts your char in chains all the time, it'll very rarely be useful. IMO, this is a "one-rank wonder".
Knowledge(History) may be useful enough to be 2. Not sure, though.
I personally like Knowledge(Engineering), as I usually let it be used to identify constructs, get info about buildings, ships, etc and try to figure how unkown mechanisms work. But that's just me. RAW, it's very rarely useful.
I removed K(Geography) from my games, now it's just part of Survival. K(Nobility) is gone too. Now it's part of K(History)
Yus. I like Kn. History mostly because many important checks in my experience go "Kn. History or..." and Kn. History is always better than having to have 5 different "Or..."'s when those are usually Geography, Local, or Nobility anyway.
Though, outside of a Feint maneuver, can someone tell me when Bluff has ever come in handy for them? I've gotten a lot of mileage out of Sense Motive, but I've only seen Bluff in use once. And while it was funny how ridiculous the lie was (and how they believed it after the DC was made), it wasn't something I ever thought "I NEEED that".
I guess I (when I PC), my players (when I GM), and my NPCs like to lie a lot more than you/yours.
I'm confused--what use did you have for Sense Motive that wasn't related to Bluff? They're opposed to each other--I thought the entire point of Sense Motive was to counter Bluffs.
Sense Motive also is also the "empathy" skill. If you want to know what someone is feeling, roll a Sense Motive. At least that's how I run it, any how.
It is related to Bluff, hence why I said up thread that Bluff is a good NPC skill, and I've had to detect enchantments twice now (one for a possessed enemy, and once to notice a Succubus was Dominating a group of dancers). I just don't think Bluff is a decent PC skill, but you're right: We don't lie much, except sometimes the Bard does.
Well actually now I think of it the Bluff skill would've come in handy in that same Succubus encounter because I was trying to pretend to be drunk at the time and the failure of that Bluff led to her laughably easy to shrug off Dominate spell, but that encounter ended so quickly I don't think it counts.
Plus I'm a Master of Many Styles whose primary defensive Style is Snake Style, so there is that.
The players in my Carrion Crown game have yet to even attempt Sense Motive on anyone though.
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My group also gets more mileage out of Profession and Knowledge by using them to give players useful information about plot problems. We had one campaign in which a guy managed to make black market connections unusually easily due to his ranks in Profession (Drug Dealer). Note: my party also likes nonstandard professions.
We also ran into a flower from an old Dragon magazine that was "Make a DC 40 knowledge (Nature) check, get a Wish," and have several times used various Profession, Craft, Knowledge, and Perform skills to impress important NPCs.
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The Appraise skill does more in the Pathfinder ruleset than you guys are suggesting.
It's a way for a fighter to tell, with a move action, which of an opponents visible accoutrements are magical.
It's a way to tell, from across the room, with a full-round action, which out of ten identical-looking chests holds the most valuable treasure.
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The Appraise skill does more in the Pathfinder ruleset than you guys are suggesting.
It's a way for a fighter to tell, with a move action, which of an opponents visible accoutrements are magical.
It's a way to tell, from across the room, with a full-round action, which out of ten identical-looking chests holds the most valuable treasure.
Since Appraise does neither of those things, I think it does exactly what I am suggesting, which is nothing useful.
A DC 20 Appraise check determines the value of a common item. If you succeed by 5 or more, you also determine if the item has magic properties, although this success does not grant knowledge of the magic item’s abilities. If you fail the check by less than 5, you determine the price of that item to within 20% of its actual value. If you fail this check by 5 or more, the price is wildly inaccurate, subject to GM discretion. Particularly rare or exotic items might increase the DC of this check by 5 or more.
You can also use this check to determine the most valuable item visible in a treasure hoard. The DC of this check is generally 20 but can increase to as high as 30 for a particularly large hoard.
Action
Appraising an item takes 1 standard action. Determining the most valuable object in a treasure hoard takes 1 full-round action.
So, with a standard action (and rolling a 25!), you can tell if a specific item is magical. Hooray, I can waste me turn trying to figure out whether or not the bad guy's sword is magical instead of just killing him and taking it. And it definitely works on only one item at a time, not his entire panoply of gear.
With a full round action, you can tell which item is the most valuable visible treasure in the hoard. So, with your 10 chests example, I could tell which chest was worth the most--since their identical, they'd all be tied and the check is useless.
It is never a move action, and you can't tell what's inside boxes, only what is visible. It is a worthless skill, and as others have said above, it also creates book keeping tedium.
Hush CHRIS!
I can't amaze peeps with my appraising skills if youse tell everyone how I do it.
The Appraise skill does more in the Pathfinder ruleset than you guys are suggesting.
It's a way for a fighter to tell, with a move action, which of an opponents visible accoutrements are magical.
It's a way to tell, from across the room, with a full-round action, which out of ten identical-looking chests holds the most valuable treasure.
Since Appraise does neither of those things, I think it does exactly what I am suggesting, which is nothing useful.
** spoiler omitted **
So, with a standard action (and rolling a 25!), you can tell if a specific item is magical. Hooray, I can waste me turn trying to figure out whether or not the bad guy's sword is magical instead of just killing him and taking it. And it definitely works on only one item at a time, not his entire panoply of gear.
With a full round action, you can tell which item is the most valuable visible treasure in the hoard. So, with your 10 chests example, I could tell which chest was worth the most--since their identical, they'd all be tied and the check is useless.
It is never a move action, and you can't tell what's inside boxes, only...
I disagree, but it is a difference in style of play.
Appraise, easily.
I ask for know: history and know: nobility checks at times, but that's probably because I use a homemade setting, and I like to work it's history into games. (Also I'm a history buff myself)
Craft and profession are good character background skills, and I try to give players opportunities to use them.
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I've adopted a houserule of 'everyone can take one rank in a profession, craft (not alchemy), or non-monster-identifying knowledge skill per level'. This allows players to take flavorful options without sacrificing utility. It's worked pretty well.
Does ANYONE actually put points into Fly?
Of course they do.
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mplindustries is correct in particulars:
1) I do indeed need a standard action to tell whether the guy across the room has a magical sword, armor, etc. Or I could do so before combat begins.
2) Appraised goods do indeed need to be visible. So, I can look at, say, the spread at the end of the movie National Treasure and spot the single most valuable item in the room. If we're still in combat, it'll take me six seconds.
Appraise is crazy-valuable, especially for warriors who lack other means to detect magic.
--+--
I concur that Fly is almost always a pointless skill.
For anyone who's not interested in making forgeries, Linguistics is also of limited use. Obscure Thassalonian inscriptions, or Aklo warnings written in blood? That's why the gods gave us wands of comprehend languages.
Fly is useful if the GM is enforcing the flying rules and you want to hover, make sharp turns, etc.
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Fly is useful if the GM is enforcing the flying rules and you want to hover, make sharp turns, etc.
Personally, I would have preferred it if they used Acrobatics skill for those sorts of tests myself, basically if you have an ability to fly your skill extends to the air as well.
Sort of like how the old James Bond RPG had the Evasion skill and then you had fields of experience like Skiing or Scuba diving that allowed you to use your Evasion skill whilst on skis or swimming.