Hi everyone.
I'm here because in the last few sessions that i'm mastering, i've encountered some trouble with the eidolon of one of our party member.
The problem is that they're at lvl.6 and the Eidolon is just too powerful, meaning the other party members usually just wait for him to get rid of enemies (getting tired and nervous).
It is a quadruped Eidolon:
HP: 39
AC: 22
TS: 6/8/1
BAB: 5
STR: 20
DEX: 18
CON: 14
WIS: 10
Feats:
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Cleave
Evolution (with 2 extra evolution):
Claw (1p)
Improved N.Armor (1p)
Pounce (1p)
Tail (1p)
Sting (1p)
Ability Increase STR (2p)
Ability Increase DEX (2p)
Energy Attacks (2p)
Items:
Belt of STR +2
Attacks:
Bite: 5 (BAB) + 5 (STR) + 2 (Charge) - 2 (P.Atck): +10
Claws (x2): 5 + 5 + 2 - 2: +10
Sting: 5 + 5 + 2 - 2: +10
Damage:
Bite: 1d6 + 5 (STR) + 4 (P.Atck) + 1d6 (Energy Atck): 16
Claws (x2): 1d4 + 5 + 4 + 1d6: 30
Sting: 1d6 + 5 + 4 + 1d6: 16
Tot: 62 Damage when charging.
What should i do to conciliate the power thirst of our Summoner with the Balance desire of the others party members (Wizard, Cleric, Fighter)?
Thx in advance, and sorry for my english :)
Assuming the rest of the party has magical weapons a few incorporial creatures would take the wind out of his sails a bit.
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First thing to do, in all threads like this, is to check the actual build is legal. Most 'powerful eidolon' problems (if not all?) can be traced to this.
Check if the thing's been built right, before you go throwing powered-up opponents at it.
I'm just passing through, with things to do, so I'll just post the link to the rules HERE.
Are you rolling for hp every level, or assigning high average (which in the case of a full BAB creature, would be 6)?
(6+2CON)x5=40, so he's in the expected ballpark, there.
And what's the source for the extra evolutions?
You say 'with two extra' but don't explain the source (I'm assuming the PC has learned evolution surge, lesser?).
Unbuffed build should have bite, limbs, limbs (which you haven't listed), plus 9 extra. You list 11 points of evolutions, none of which are the free ones from the base form.
You need to show the unbuffed build, how it walks around 24/7, because it needs to be compared to the PCs when they're buffed.
If that build is based on evolution surge, then it's only that good for 20 minutes per day, if the master blows every one of his highest level spell slots on it. And if that's the case, he's not hasting the party, healing his eidolon, dropping opponents into pits, protecting them from energy, scouting invisibly....you get the idea.
I'd be interested to see the build of the party's designated combat specialist, as well. Often, in threads like this, the players feeling overshadowed have made poor decisions in their own PC's build.
What damage is the summoner's fighter buddy dealing, with his 3 attacks/round, with a Large greatsword? That's 9d6, or 54, before adding any Str bonus (times 1.5, remember), weapon training, feats, or weapon qualities.
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@Snorter: a level 6 eidolon has 9 evolution points baseline + 2 if the summoner spends feats. Not counting the baseline evolutions. If the summoner was a half elf spending favored class points the eidolon could have 12. The eidolon looks legal.
@Dema: This is not even an optimized eidolon. If it is overshadowing the party, your table is not into optimizing. Be happy. An optimized build of most classes would match or exceed the posted build by 5th level.
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Ok, I'll look at from an edit PoV.
The eidolon's Fort save should be 7 -base 5, +2 from con
The eidolon has above average hit points, but well within the range of 5d10+10; I presume these were rolled.
Sting attack should do 1d4 damage for a medium eidolon.
Level 6 eidolon has 9 points, I presume the extra two come from feats and favored class abilities so 11 points looks ok.
Other than that the build looks legal. You're running into problems due to a couple of factors. One is that summoner is extremely easy to optimize - it compares well with other optimized characters of equal level, but if the rest of your group is playing more relaxed builds, the summoner can easily stand out. Alchemists have similar problems. Trust me when I say that in the right hands a well built fighter, barbarian, or paladin could put out similar damage numbers.(off the cuff raging barb at that level could be attacking at +13/+8 for 4d6+19 per attack or so)
Also, level 6 is in the sweet spot for pet classes. Eidolons and animal companions can start to lag behind as the party get high level.
Some basic advice: don't always let the beastie pounce. It has to have a straight path with no difficult terrain or interposed enemies or allies to get at its target. Put the bad guy behind some minions, around a corner, or in some difficult terrain and suddenly no pounce for mr Deathcat. Be prepared for your player to buy wings for this thing, it's the next logical step.
Energy resistance against whatever energy type it does, as well as miss chances and flying foes will make this critter sad right now as well.
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@Snorter: a level 6 eidolon has 9 evolution points baseline + 2 if the summoner spends feats.
Thanks. I caught myself on that one, and edited my post.
We still need to know the source of the extra evolutions, since if it's via spell, it doesn't last long.
Muggle and Mudblood enemies, when faced with PCs who are obviously toting spell-buffs, should play for time. Make them bash through locked and barred doors, make them climb over barricades, deny charge lanes. Can ScorpionCat handle a ladder? Or climb a rope?
You don't even have to look as though you're picking on the eidolon specifically. An area dispel into the whole party means the creature's flames just went out - reduce max damage/round by 24.
If it's via the master spending feats, well, there go his 1st and 5th level feats, meaning he just made his weak point even weaker...
@Flamdri: I don't like Cleave either, i'll try to change the Summoner's mind about it :)
@Snorter: HP is rolled (except the first one (half-dice)) every level.
The two extra evolution points came from the "Extra Evolution Feat" taken twice (i don't like that choice either but he is firm about it).
So it has 9 + 2 evolution at 6th level.
I beg pardon for not showing the free evolutions (bite, 2x legs).
@Ryric: Sorry for the Sting, my fault it is obviously a d4 (1 less damage in average).
About the TS it is not 4 (base) + 2 (con)?
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The real thing that worries me is that the Fighter and the Wizard are really upset by the Eidolon.
Wizard is an illusionist one, while fighter is a two-handed-"tank".
I agree with you that Summoner is quite brainless and in not a long time it will be surpassed by the other members of the group (expecially the Wizard and the Cleric).
By now i'll follow your advice to let'em encounter un-pounceable monster or situation in wich a mindless "Go Eidolon" would result in a semi-disasater for the Summoner, or maybe some sleep addicted monster who use to cast Slumber on the poor guy :)
You reassured me a lot, and i owe you a debt ^^
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(Coming in and out, while tidying my daughter's room. Just picked up a Pokemon DVD, which seems appropriate, and got me thinking...)
In most episodes of Pokemon, especially the movies, where they discover some Legendary Epic GoofyThing, there's a climactic scene, where the children are stood on a beach, watching the heavens exploding, and exclaiming "I'm glad we're safe back here!".
The distance restrictions on Life Link mean that summoner has to hurl himself into the eye of the hurricane, if he doesn't want his pet to be crippled to half hit points.
100 feet from ground zero isn't a great distance (and in practice, you have to be a lot closer than that), when you consider all your opponent's medium-range spells start at 110.
And if he's blown all his feats and spells making his eidolon better, then he's effectively a level 6 Expert, and they don't belong, facing CR 6-10 BBEGS.
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You're right about the base save of 4. Must have read the wrong line of the chart.
I'm not suggesting making every encounter nerf the eidolon; I'm just saying that not every encounter should play to its strengths (flat, unobstructed charge path right up to a bad guy protected by mediocre AC). The beastie is still decently powerful if it has to move+attack anyway.
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100 feet from ground zero isn't a great distance (and in practice, you have to be a lot closer than that), when you consider all your opponent's medium-range spells start at 110.
In an indoor setting I've found this to not be an issue while playing. My summoner typically remains just around a corner, meaning opponents have no line-of-sight.
By 6th level, invisibility is an option.
As for pounce: in the tables I've played at, pounce is rarely an option due to lack of straight lines and other players in the way.
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In an indoor setting I've found this to not be an issue while playing. My summoner typically remains just around a corner, meaning opponents have no line-of-sight.
By 6th level, invisibility is an option.
As for pounce: in the tables I've played at, pounce is rarely an option due to lack of straight lines and other players in the way.
That's all true, which illustrates that it's often a self-correcting issue, dependent on the terrain.
Lots of open space, and charge lanes: lots of opportunity for enemies to get round the eidolon and other PCs, to sack the armchair quarterback (the level 6 Expert, who blew most of his feats on the pet).
Lots of cover to hide the summoner: lack of opportunities to charge and pounce.
Twisty passages and multiple doorways also mean plenty of mundane ways to stymie or reduce the advantage of invisibility. A simple beaded curtain is a way to give such a PC headaches, and the GM can't be accused of targetting the PC, since it's a believably-occurring feature in people's dwellings.
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I believe something in the nature of the encounters to date is contributing to the other players' issues, and none of us will be able to give specific advice, until we know what scenarios are being played.
An overabundance of single-enemy encounters, enemies without special senses (to target hypothetical invisible support casters), poor movement rates, no special movement modes (to evade or bypass a landbound combatant), no swarms immune to weapon damage....feel free to add to the list.
These aren't things that should be put in, purely to spite this particular player. These are the kind of things which should be appearing naturally, as opposition for generic level 6 PCs. Take a look at the options available on the Summon 1-3 list; you've got flyers, scent, ranged grapples, DR, energy resistances, see in full darkness,...all things that reduce the effectiveness of this eidolon, or allow them to bypass it completely.
And these are not full encounters in their own right. These are incidental chaff, encounter filler, that can be used to pad out an encounter with a low-level enemy caster, without even affecting the effective EL. The actual meat of the encounters should be creatures much more versatile than these.
Not every encounter should be difficult, some should be 'whack the sentry on the head, one-shot KO, game over', but the ones that matter, that are relevant to the main plot, that the players will remember, should have a variety of opponents, challenging environment, enough so that every PC is kept busy. That's why climax encounters with single-monster BBEGs are so often anticlimactic.
A npc with banish, anti-magic circles, banish weaponry. The eidolon is an outsider, and effected by many of the things affecting them. Sure, is a minute to resummon, but... bane weapons, clerics channeling against outsiders... that spell to take over a summoned creature. Sure opposed cha checks, and the summoner can banish as a std action, but that solves that problem. The summoner has other tools at his disposal, like the rest of the party. Remember the eidolon once summoned (has to be summoned each day, goes away when summoner is knocked out, or asleep, etc) comes back with same hp, or 1/2 if killed previous day (cannot be summoned for 24hrs after killed). So... Night attacks when summoner is asleep. Charm the summoner, or dominate the summoner, then the eidolon is on your side ^_^
Depends on the composition of the rest of the party - Do they have many frontline fighters other than the Eidolon? Is their composition solely based off the Eidolon taking all the enemies while a bunch of spellcasters or half-spellcasters take care of the magical sides of things?
Also, you can put pressure on an Eidolon without nerfing its statistics - throw in some enemies with DR/magic or Cold iron or silver, ect. Have some wizards cast debuffs or domination spells on the Eidolon. Have a few gunslingers touch AC rape the Eidolon from a distance. Perhaps even place the party into a tight walkway or gauntlet, and have the Eidolon fight a series of Magi (Maguses?) all shocking grasping it until the summoner's forced to sacrifice hp or let it die. Then place them into a fight with a bunch of Barbarians or whatnot now that they're down a major frontline shield and damage source.
Traps that run off will saves work wonders as well for pressuring a powerful Eidolon. Just don't aim for a TPK, but design encounters so that the strengths of the Eidolon are weaker and its weaknesses are being abused.
Also, you can put pressure on an Eidolon without nerfing its statistics - throw in some enemies with DR/magic or Cold iron or silver, ect. Have some wizards cast debuffs or domination spells on the Eidolon. Have a few gunslingers touch AC rape the Eidolon from a distance. Perhaps even place the party into a tight walkway or gauntlet, and have the Eidolon fight a series of Magi (Maguses?) all shocking grasping it until the summoner's forced to sacrifice hp or let it die. Then place them into a fight with a bunch of Barbarians or whatnot now that they're down a major frontline shield and damage source.Traps that run off will saves work wonders as well for pressuring a powerful Eidolon. Just don't aim for a TPK, but design encounters so that the strengths of the Eidolon are weaker and its weaknesses are being abused.
All good points. And the summoner is also vulnerable to a multitude of things. He doesn't ask the Eidolon to do something, he tells it to, so dominate the summoner, you get a free eidolon. Read up on Eidolons and what they can do. There are clerics that channel against outsiders, which works against synthesists, too. How often does the summoner sleep? Isn't sting a secondary attack, anyway... What kind of energy is the Eidolon attacking with?
DR10/Silver or Cold Iron, cheap for party members to have weapons to hit and eidolon is left out in the cold. if he compensates you just keep moving the DR goal line when you want tougher encounters
DR10/Adamantium
DR10/Good
etc etc
most critters with that have energy resistances as well
Another question: What is the point buy (or equivalent, if you roll stats) of the rest of the party? An eidolon's ability scores are unaffected by the system chosen to generate player character ability scores, so they are relatively more powerful in a low point buy game than in a high point buy game.
Also, how does the magical equipment of the player characters stack up to the wealth by level guidelines? One factor that seriously nerfs summoners and their eidolons is their requirement to share magic item slots. If the party is low on magical gear, this restriction has relatively less effect. The fact that the eidolon's only magic item is a belt of strength suggests a possible low treasure game.
But the only feature of the eidolon that could make it overpowered is the pounce evolution, which I have seen suggested as a "must have" elsewhere on these message boards. The evolution is quite legal at this level, but if you absolutely decide that the eidolon needs nerfing, getting rid of that evolution should do the trick.
Yea, pounce definitely has a tendency to be rough... maybe get some mobs with brace weapons? deal damage when they try to charge... maybe throw a big baddie in that has been watching them, perhaps dc 20 perception to notice a floating eye every once in a while, and learns how to beat the party, obviously focusing more on the eidolon since it seems to be the main fighter of the party.
Just a coupple of more suggestions for weapons to your arsenal.
1: It is ok to sleep/dominate/banish or any of the multitude of spells that directly takes out the eidolon, once in a while. Especially if that means you can make the summoner be slightly more careful with it.
2: Use minions. Put lots of small HP, easily disposable NPCs between the vilain and the eidolon. That way he can just charge them instead, and kill one per round, thats not a big deal if there is 10 minions and they have 10-15 hp each. Alternatively you can give the minions a spear and use the brace action, which should be able to hurt the eidolon a little. (remember he cannot charge an enemy and use some of his attacks for hitting other people than that enemy, and that cleave is an action in itself, so that wont work either)
3: Use combat manouvers. Even though the eidolon right now has a CMD of 24 which is on the high end, then he should continue to fall further behind there, meaning that a grapple monk/fighter/barbarian will have an easy time taking him out. Also dirty trick to blind him, or trip could be useful.
4: Use smart tactics. The eidolon can only be one place at a time, so you can always try to ambush the party from multiple places, forcing all of them into a fight.
5: What you really should try to avoid with a party that has a pouncing meatgrinder, is to have only 1 high CR opponent against the party. You need to use minions, multiple high level opponents, and/or terrain to make the combats interesting to the whole party. Im most MMO games the most interesting bosses/fights include multiple different things to do, and enemies to fight, try to construct the fights like that.
6: Use color spray from a low level mook to target the eidolon after it has charged, odds are he will be stunned and then dead in 1-2 rounds. especially if the rest of the party is not also in the fight.
Make the party fight a cyclops. Really. Immediate action it uses its Insight to choose to roll a 20 on its AoO caused by the charge (it has reach...), then it needs to roll a 9 to confirm the crit (eidolon has -2 AC from charging), with a great ax that deals 3d6+7 normally. A crit will deal 9d6+21, or 52.5 damage on average, more than enough to drop the eidolon.
Cyclops is only a CR5 monster, so its really about finding the right monster for the right job. It has low will and reflex saves which allow the wizard to shine, and its high attack bonus and damage lets the party "tank" (god i hate it when players think that tanking is a thing in PF and self nerf their fighter with "high" ACs that I end up hitting anyways with normal monster progression). The cyclops is also a decent HP bunker, so can handle most of the 1 character alpha strikes within its expected range APL vs CR. Also with the lowish CR vs the party, that leave room for additional monsters, heck a second one only boosts the encounter up to 7 which is "only" a tough encounter. Or you could just adjust its stats and give it the better NPC array, and add 2 levels of barbarian...
Why am I saying it is OK to toss in an "unfair" brute like the cyclops? Because lazy players who think the answer to everything is to charge need to find out what that means against monsters with powerful attacks, reach, and iterative attacks. Being 2 results easier to hit against a high +to hit and high damage beast should teach the summoner charging is dangerous really quick. A pounce build "needs" to charge to be effective, well that's on him, he is the one that put all of his characters resources into making a 1 trick eidolon.
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What does TS stand for? I do not think it is tail slap based on where you place it and the fact that it has a sting.
Have you been forgetting to target the summoner itself? if they fall asleep, bye bye eidolon.
I find that with less than full HD and wanting to wear the cloack of resistance on my summoner over the eidolon, my eidolon has always had poor saving throws.
Do you have the eidolon act on it's own initiative instead of the Summoner's? Does it have to wait for orders from the summoner effectively lowering it's initiative to the summoner? Does the summoner have pre-standing orders for the eidolon to act out before getting new directions?
Rend requires two successful claw attacks. Sting does not. I do not bother with rake until I get the feat that only requires one successful claw attack or until I have 4 claw attacks. I do like rend at all.
I dislike power attack and cleave either but it does present another option when you do not have a clear charge/pounce line.
I concur with all the DR options, heck, even the simple DR magic would do it's trick with the current eidolon build with no magic strike evolution or the feat to defeat silver and magic.
Energy resistance against whatever energy type it does, as well as miss chances and flying foes will make this critter sad right now as well.So would DR, touch attacks and anything requiring a will save.
I just dislike designing encounters to minimize a specific player.
Artanthos, you and I are so very much on the same page.
We've had Summoners and Master Summoners (and sometimes both) in pretty much every one of our parties since they became options and never have they been a problem at the table for the GM or the other players.
Now, to be fair, our parties tend to optimize a little and tend to play very smart - as such they usually appreciate what other classes bring to the table rather than lament that someone did something better than them.
What does TS stand for? I do not think it is tail slap based on where you place it and the fact that it has a sting.
I'm gonna guess Saving Throws, reversed, by the position. Meaning this eidolon has a +1 Will save and could be getting knocked out like a light.
Do you have the eidolon act on it's own initiative instead of the Summoner's? Does it have to wait for orders from the summoner effectively lowering it's initiative to the summoner? Does the summoner have pre-standing orders for the eidolon to act out before getting new directions?
I don't know if the OP shortcuts things and has companions run on the same initiatives as their owners (I've seen people do that, and I personally do at times).
If not though, communication between summoner and eidolon is free and doesn't need to be done on the summoner's turn. They basically are both able to act however they should.
Personally, I would outlaw the Summoner class outright. No NPC should ever outshine a PC.
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Personally, I would outlaw the Summoner class outright. No NPC should ever outshine a PC.
Eidolon isn't an NPC. Its a core component of a PC class. A summoner without an eidolon is a crappy conjurer. With an eidolon the summer is still balanced with the rest of the party given the same level of optimization for all characters. People who complain about being overshadowed by the eidolon aren't building very optimized characters.
Yeah, but if you make it a skill monkey the rogues will have cause to complain...
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I think this is why it helps to know what everybody is playing when you join or start a game. I was going for a mounted summoner character (gnome). I found out that another player was playing a summoner. I figured he would take broodmaster (he likes broods) so I figured we'd be ok. But he didn't want the overlap and picked Cavalier. I immediately erased the entire idea of a mounted summoner. The class and the Eidolon are flexible enough (more than flexible enough) to play any role needed. So I went with battlefield control and a furry death explosion as an eidolon. Eidolon charges, something dies. Cavalier charges, something else dies. I then make it hard for the stuff living to do what it wants. Everybody is happy.
And even if there is overlap, you can always role play the eidolon. Sure, yours can be a skill monkey and there might be a rogue with the exact same skillset, but you can keep your eidolon close at hand and let the rogue do his thing, or the rogue and eidolon can work together or scout multiple rooms simultaneously. Two tanks can soak damage better than one (depending on if they are tanking aoe's or not). Lots of ways to overlap completely and enhance game play rather than stepping on folks toes, too. You just have to work with people and role play it out.
I'm experiencing similar eidolon power issues with the game I'm currently running. The eidolon, not too dissimilar to the one described above but definitely powerful, can output a tremendous amount of damage on a full attack. But it does have its limitations. The best one I've found so far is a relatively poor Will save which makes it prone to being controlled by enemy spellcasters. Something this powerful turning on its own allies really makes a group (and the Summoner in particular) think twice about breaking the game.
Personally, I would outlaw the Summoner class outright. No NPC should ever outshine a PC.Eidolon isn't an NPC. Its a core component of a PC class. A summoner without an eidolon is a crappy conjurer. With an eidolon the summer is still balanced with the rest of the party given the same level of optimization for all characters. People who complain about being overshadowed by the eidolon aren't building very optimized characters.
i would have to disagree with you on it being a crappy conjurer with out the eidolon. the fact that the summon monsters last longer then a few rounds allows for some very creative use of the spells along with spells like create pit you have a strong field control
that being said if they were to have the pet taken away i'm well aware that they fall on the lower side of the power chart when it come to arcana casters but i do think it still playable if done smart along the same lines as a core witch
bracing for a charge...
Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging creature (see Combat).
Not sure if it was mentioned, but dont forget that they share item slots... so no belt for the Summoner while his pet has that belt of Str on. The same goes for any future gear he gives him.
TS is Tail Slap, however you can't have both tail slap and sting on the same tail.
That seems highly unlikely in context. Tail slap wasn't mentioned at all. The positioning and numbers in question are:
HP: 39
AC: 22
TS: 6/8/1
From looking at the eidolon, it seems to me that the other players made terrible characters.
it's very hard to overshadow a two handed fighter in melee combat. i would like to see the fighter build and stats, something tells me, the player did something crazy.
If the Eidolon can pounce from opponent to opponent and the fighter only gets full attacks occasionally it's very easy to get overshadowed.
nah. it can share the spotlight, but even with pounce there is no way a properly built two handed fighter gets overshadowed by an equal level eidelon.
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I disagree Ikarinokami. I am reasonably certain that I could make an eidolon beyond fully capable of utterly removing a single enemy from combat every round, round after round or at least throwing out enough powerful status effects and having enough alternate variety as to be enough to stand out in the wake of a reasonably optimized two handed fighter. As far as I know, the eidolons raw damage should win out (it gets more str than a two handed fighter could) and it gets more attacks and if it wants, can get 1.x5 str damage on several of those attacks. Perhaps the two handed guy can dish out 1k damage in a round and the eidolon only 500. But nobody cares at that point since 500-1k is meaningless. 1-300 is almost all you will ever need.
I concede that a fighter has more raw combat options than an eidolon, all day long- in combat. A fighter can stack on more tricks, cover more combat situations EQUALLY as well as an eidolon covers it's one or two tricks, etc. The advantage of the eidolon is the variety of evolutions and the shared summoner gear.
But it's all rocket tag eventually anyway. For a look at what I mean, check out This thread. The post 4th from the bottom is what I am referring to, but there are others on there that are very good. This isn't even optimized (intentionally not optimized) and it can kill any cr appropriate (and many higher) things. I'm sure a two handed fighter could the same, of course, with a good selection of feats.
they do not, for instance eidolons sucked at killing DR creatures. they get alot of attacks that do very little damage. They suck at killing high AC monsters, where a properly built fighters will leave them in the dust. I wont even get into the unbridled killing machine of a range fighter.
A power attacking two handed fighter is a combat machine. There is ZERO chance that fighter at 5th level, with weapon focus, power attack, weapon spec, high str and wielding a two handed weapon and having 5 feats should take a back seat to a eidolon. I want to see the fighter build. I play in a group with a very welloptimize ediolon, and my fighter is a far superior melee combatant. worse yet, he mention the cleric was being overshadowed? a fifth level cleric? then when clerics start being able to terrible things with there vast assortment of spells. I want to see the builds of the other players, because there is no way a 5th level fighter and cleric should be overshadowed. if it were a rogue, i could understand, but a cleric and fighter, please.
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I will concede that the eidolon outshining the cleric sounds like a cleric who has NO idea what it's doing. At low level, I argue the fighter is stronger, in general, especially optimized and using the proper weapon(s) and combination(s).
At mid levels, I find the fighters can be more versatile in answering (or posing) combat questions like DR, maneuvers, etc. They can specialize in and master more combat related things than an eidolon could ever hope to.
But in terms of things like raw damage or raw ac, there is a point where I have to disagree with you.
Let's say an 24 str fighter with weapon training x4, +5 greatsword, +6 str enhancement, Weapon Spec and Greater Weapon Spec, power attack (15 dmg). Ok. So let's figure this out?
30 str = 10 dmg(actually 15). Weapon Training adds 4, Weapon Spec and greater add 4, Power Attack adds another 15.
I'm assuming this fighter started with 18 str and put +2 in it, then put 4 of their 5 stat increases into str, too.
15+15+8 +12(greatsword) = 50. The average damage per hit fully power attacked is 50 a hit. That's rather impressive. The fighter is also almost always going to hit, too.
Eidolon:
Str 32. +6 str enhancement. Power Attack. Head x2, Extra Bite x5(for 1.5x str dmg). Claws x2, Large, Energy Attacks, Rend, Pounce, Improved Damage x2, Amulet of Mighty BS +5. Improved Natural Attack. (There are still 4-8 more evo points left to spend if half elf and not taking extra evolution feats).
38 Str = 14dmg. 21 on bites. Power attack = +6 (claws) and +9(bites). Energy Attacks = 3.5 dmg (1d6). INA + large +Improved dmg makes claws 2d6 and bites 3d6).
Bites = 21 +9 +3.5 +3d6 +5 = 50 average damage per bite.
Claws = 14 +6 +3.5 +2d6 +5 = 34.5 average damage per claw.
Rend = 21 +9 +3.5 +2d6 +5 = 44 average damage per rend.
This eidolon could have 3 bites, 4 claws and one rend. The fighter can have 4 swings with the greatsword.
50 x 4 = 200. That's ridiculous and more than enough to rock socks.
But..
50 x 3 = 150 (bites).
34.5 x 4 = 138 (claws).
+44 (rend). = 332 damage per round on a full attack or charge.
Neither is fully optimized, of course, and this does take into account very specific eidolons and fighters. But I think the general point is shown here.
My main statement is that in terms of RAW damage and RAW AC, the eidolons win (if they want).
But a fighter will always hit more often and have far more options in a combat than an equally optimized eidolon, because it requires a lot of focus for an eidolon to equal or exceed the better fighters.
The numbers above aren't fair in regard to some issues (accuracy), feat number and variety, etc. It's probable that a twf fighter can catch up or possibly beat an eidolon. But it's close. No, a fighter should not be outshone by an eidolon in a good fight, but outdamaged or out tanked? It looks like they can.
I threw together some (what I felt) were generic but rather focused versions of both. I did not use haste because I didn't see an extra 50 damage making up for the 132 the eidolon was already dealing over the fighter (and the eidolon could just be hasted as well).
Any eidolon trying to play OPTIMIZED fighter is going to be super narrow and a one trick pony. While this eidolon would compete with most very good fighters (I think), in terms of damage, it can't provide the sheer number of status effects, tactics, etc, and it's AC is Abysmal....it's a glass cannon. A fighter may not do nearly as much damage, but he'll do an incredible amount AND have a good AC AND have combat tricks, AND backup options. I went into the examples above not sure which one would actually come out on top. I did take the time to read through a fighter optimization guide to make sure I wasn't missing out on any significant amounts of damage for that full attack. If I am still wrong, please show me where. I think, though, that my example above proves an eidolon can compete with the best fighters in specific categories. Keep in mind this eidolon had not used all of it's evolution points or feats. I just focused on raw damage as an example.