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Interesting comments, thanks.

After reading that I think I realize I do not want to be "super effective". Partly due to party composition and partly to player dispositions. Here is a brief group rundown:

GM: I know the rules better than him and he does not really care about bending them for the story or to be soft-handed.

Me: cleric and I like rules and rules mastery.

Dave: veteran d20 player who probably knows the rules better than GM but bites his tongue so we play instead of bog down. Playing divine caster/rogue of Saranrae.

Cat: playing sisters who both have levels in monk and one is a druid while the other is a bard. Happy to bend rules.

Young adult no. 1: Numerian warrior with plasma pistol. Probably will never read the rules.

Young adult no 2: paladin who seeks the sunsword and will probably never read the rules.

Young adult no. 3: probably total newb who will never read the rules. Playing 2wf ranger.

Young adult no. 4: total newb who will probably never read the rules. Playing wizard.

This boils down to the GM doing his best to balance narrative combat with mechanical options and in my opinion being far too soft. So maybe I should take the options that I anticipate will bring me joy instead of being combat or socially effective. Hmm...

I have a cleric of Lymnieris who needs to figure out which domains to choose.

Typically I like a domain that expands my spell selection while providing a nifty ability.

I am thinking of Community for the abilty to remove some conditions. And Protection for the resist to saves.

But I am open to other ideas.

Right now he is 4th level. Some campaign info that might be useful:

The Charm/Lust domain is tempting but we are playing a kitbashed version of Return or Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. So I expect a bunch of undead.

The GM also tends to not like the same level of treasure I typically expect from Paizo or anyone else who likes treasure. Plus I have no clue what WoTC would include, especially since I am familiar with the iconic treasures available in the original I6 module. With that in mind it is why I am considering the Protection domain, to free up the cloak of resistance spot for say a cloak of the bat/manta/anything different.

I also do not expect the characters to reach high than 7th level. That is when the GM typically ends a campaign.

And finally we could have about 7 characters in the group. 8 if the person playing 2 sisters brings both characters. This is another reason I expect low treasure and XP.

So, ideas?

Spending 2 hero points to die a couple rounds later would probably cause my brain to first stop considering hero points as resources. I'd probably stop using them proactively, to modify die rolls, as well. I might then expect myself to reconsider what it is that I enjoy about the game in general. Knowing myself, any anger toward the DM or situation would eventually subsibe, but while I was angry I'd consider rolling up new characters with the intent of getting myself killed as quickly as possible. I know of course people would say I'm being passive aggressive, but perhaps it is just how I interpret the character creation and death cycle. "What are you talking about, I'm just enjoying thinking up new characters. It's a coincidence they keep dying".

blahpers wrote:
Wycen wrote:

The guy hiding In my closet is correct. It is possible he wanted to use persisent spell, but because "piercing" starts with P he thought it was the same thing.

The DM should have caught this since "roll twice and take the worse result" was what caused him to stop giving out mythic tiers.

...That's where the GM decided mythic was too much?

: I

Some people in this group have a history of playing fast and loose with the rules. I enjoy rules mastery, so I attempt to act as rules lawyer, including when, ESPECIALLY when it favors the DM. Personally I think he's a bit too laissez-faire with assuming the players actually know the rules, but I can't do anything about that. And even I get things wrong.

The scenario was after we got our first mythic tier and were battling an agile mythic dragon for our second. The wizard PC chose the mythic ability that forced 2 saves vs. spells. But he forgot that little caveat that only non-mythic creatures had to make 2 saves. The DM's dice luck was not with him. Then there's the other PC casting mythic spells ignoring the required mythic spell feat/ability.

Plus now we are at 13th level with 6 players so it requires too much time to make sure everything is challenging or balanced.

The guy hiding In my closet is correct. It is possible he wanted to use persisent spell, but because "piercing" starts with P he thought it was the same thing.

The DM should have caught this since "roll twice and take the worse result" was what caused him to stop giving out mythic tiers.

I know the myhic archmage can cast spells and force non-mythic targets to save twice and take the worse result, but are there any feats that do the same thing?

I was pretty authorative when it came up this weekend, but now I am thinking about maybe domain powers, feats, magic items, etc.

Actually since it was a wizard trying to pull the wool over the DM's eyes, maybe an arcane discovery I am not familiar with?

As long as you are willing to let them sell them for any amount of money, they are not "useless".

Essentially forcing 4 rolls to fail a save would be too good. I'd not allow it.

No it is not considered official, but some GM's are happy adding things from other publishers.

Duiker wrote:

I've been running Reign of Winter with mythic. They got their first tier with the Black Mantle, as everyone else has noted, it makes sense.

But man, I have had to rewrite every single combat encounter. We just finished book 3 and although you're supposed to level 9 for the final fight, my group was level 7 tier 3. And even combined together three of the big fights into the boss fight, they still smoked it without trying.

The only reason I'm able to keep up is because I'm playing in a Wrath of the Righteous group that's in book 5, so I've picked up a solid background in the mythic rules that way. If you haven't played/run mythic and you convert an AP, your players are always going to be ahead of the learning curve on you.

Particularly at tier 3 things go up in power and potential. The mythic book says you could consider a mythic tier equal to half a level. I find that comparison only vaguely useful as mythic powers simply do not fit well into typical level progression.

You'll have to expand the information you want.

Are you looking for some way to shorten the summoning ritual that takes 1 minute to perform?

Are you looking for a summoning spell that summons your eidolon? The poster above provided you the spell that will summon your eidolon for a short period of time and with s short casting time.

To shorten the summoning ritual, the only thing I can think of is a mythic ability.

I'm playing a campaign right now that limits teleportation. The game is meant to be a sandbox, so teleporting somewhat disrupts the hexploration aspect of a sandbox.

Our solution.

Each teleport spell works like the lower level version.

So, Dimension Door does not work.

But Teleport now works as per the Dimension Door rules.

Greater Teleport works like Teleport.

There are flaws in this when you start adding extra source books in.

Example, Ice Crystal Teleport becomes Ice Crystal Dimension Door.

No boost to hit points because while you get hit points ever tier, they are not based on tier level, but based on your mythic path.

I'm not super familiar with what being "feral" means, but a technical issue I see is that your eidolon knows the languages you know. Thus if you don't know any languages, your eidolon wont. Thus your eidolon can't be the "character".

How I handled it with one of my groups.

First, I wondered if it was a case of the DM not being aware of the rules or maybe using home rules. In the end, I decided it was a combination of not knowing the rules, not caring and seeing these home rules as "making sense" and assuming 3.5 and Pathfinder are similar. Later, trying to get my head around the gaping rules ignorance, I came to the conclusion that due to self selection bias, (always playing with the same people) nobody had ever challenged their knowledge of the rules.

My first step was to email the DM and ask what I had hoped was something of an innocuous question to develop a deeper conversation. I asked, "how come your monsters don't fight to their fullest capabilities?"

I've been playing d20 since it came out, so I KNOW and EXPECT how certain things works. A Huge size monster should threaten a larger area than just the squares adjacent to it. Things like that.

This lead to a phone call with the DM. I had practiced a script I had hoped to use to tease out what the problems might be. The DM's reply derailed my script and so rather than arriving at, "you don't know the rules" I abandoned the idea completely. Essentially the DM said "it makes sense to me that you get a bonus to backstab". Well, as anyone who actually has read the rules knows, Pathfinder has no "Backstab" (except perhaps in an obscure feat or trait I don't know about). Backstab hasn't been part of DnD, and thus Pathfinder, since 2E.

If you can apply the idea "that it makes sense to me" to explain away one rule, you can apply it to anything.

My next consideration was my level of annoyance, the other players, and other factors, like we only play 2 or 3 hours a session. If I bog down the game always correcting rules that nobody else cares about, is that fun?

Ultimately, I removed myself from the game.

Edit: Before rejoining, I told the DM my concerns while we ate dinner during a local gaming convention and it was suggested I run a game.

Recently I rejoined them with a new character and quickly saw that they still play their homebrew d20 system inspired by Pathfinder, but they don't play Pathfinder. With that in mind, should I play more, I'm changing my character in order to highlight certain rules. Like now I've taken a level of rogue, specifically to start using sneak attack the way it should be used.

I wish you luck on your attempt, but you may have to accept that some people do not like or want what you like and want in a game.

I guess I hadn't comprehended the language in that mythic ability, but I'm now inclined to believe that only functions for Crafting mundane equipment.

And that is bad design on the part of d20pfsrd. That's 3rd party material mixed in with Paizo stuff. I wonder if that means they fixed the Iceberg terrain and black pudding" link being mythic spells...let's find out.

I'd say yes.

Was that the Kickstarter with the trailer that had cool artwork, like a nautilus shell ship and wanna-be mermaid-green skinned Orion slave girls?

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My summoner with the Leadership feat counts the eidolon against his score.

Rationale behind this is simple, the core rule book was written before the summoner ever existed. Maybe some day they'll get around to including a mention in the text, but it is clear that an eidolon should be treated as a "familiar, special mount, or animal companion".

Guardian has abilities that helps eidolons, and the marshal path has abilities that help allies, which could include your eidolon, party members, NPC's, etc. There isn't really a good way to make your eidolon "mythic", but guardian path has the most relevant. I think the hierophant path includes 1 or 2 mythic abilities also found in the guardian path that works for eidolons.

2 mythic tiers is workable. Once you grant the 3rd tier which provides the Recuperation ability, you have made every encounter a 15 minute work day, if they manage mythic power points properly. Tier 3 also opens up newer and powerful mythic abilities.

In our game the DM caught on before granting tier 3, so we have 2 tiers and that's all we'll ever get for this campaign. And while I admit I'd love to play with some higher level abilities, I'm happy how things are working now.

I can't remember how I interpreted this rule, but I believe I too arrived at the specific overriding the general, since when our DM started regretting adding mythic powers to the game I warned him to absolutely stop advancing us before we reached tier 3 and really got crazy.

LazarX wrote:
All souls that die go to Pharasma to be judged. She sends them to the deity that most closely models the ideals the mortal lived by. A Mythic character who grants spells isn't such a creature, he's more of a middleman.

Not everyone uses that cosmology.

A mythic character who dies still has an amazing legend and stories that don't die just because he or she did.

I've heard the pokemon comparison before, but I prefer the Final Fantasy summon comparison.

But whatever the case, for my current summoner I've used the link to the eidolon as a means to first provide a reason for my character to become more confident, and now more cold-hearted (since my eidolon is a remnant of an ancient primordial cold creature).

For buffing and general utility, I suggest a druid with a domain instead of animal companion or a witch.

What are you interested in and perhaps more importantly, what does your DM do with the Leadership feat? Does he create the NPC, control the NPC, or anything else? (and if he doesn't, he should really have a say in building the NPC).

Also, based on your levels, I'm guessing you are in the 2nd adventure, Trail of the Beast, but correct me if I'm wrong. That might provide info to suggest monstrous cohorts.

Other than the intro text for the chapter, I have not read about Legendary items, so I'm not sure how they'd interact with the mythic paragon feat.

As for Divine Source, yes, Miracle as a spell like ability is possible at tier 7.

You could use the race building rules from the Advanced Race Guide. Here's an example of how they would build an ogre: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder/exampleRac es.html#_other-race-examples

With that you can factor in the size if you want to go Large, or stay Medium.

I use this to build my eidolon: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons

You must indeed be 8th level before you can take that evolution. The why's and how's of Herolab will have to be explained by someone else.

I predict the thread will not stay on topic for long. We once had a 3E player with 4 classes for a 7th level character. He suffered from being almost useless. But I'm helping to fulfill my first prediction.

I believe you cannot threaten when you go full defensive, and as such, can't provide a flanking circumstance, but I could be wrong.

I'm guessing you want small aquatic for DEX and armor class, but I think you'd be better off with a medium serpentine in the long run. But perhaps you'll want to look at an archetype, like master summoner or broodmaster instead since you're summon monster ability will be just as useful, if not more so, when you only have 1 level of summoner.

I knew "from scratch" would come back to haunt me, but I completely forgot the base price = market price, but is halved for construction. GRRR!

If it were just one item that would be ok, I could move on and not worry about it. But, I also want to put a value on the dozen or so inferior and unused item in the party treasure so we can put that potential gold value to use. Cloaks and rings are easy but the weapons and armor are all different.

Wait a second... if we sell items for half value... then the construction cost is effectively the sell value... maybe?

I thought I knew how to value, in terms of gold pieces, magic armor and magic weapons. And by extension, I thought I knew the rules for crafting these items, specifically the cost. But I have never before actually taken Craft Magical Arms & Armor and attempted to craft an item from scratch or improve upon an existing set of armor or weapon. Craft Wondrous Items always got the attention.

In my current game I have a desire to craft a suit of armor from scratch so I read the rules. Closely. Which is why I use the term "from scratch" because I believe that might be a slightly different cost calculation. Which caused me to dig through the forums searching for other threads about this.

I want to use the right terminology, but I suspect based on recent conversations with my group about magic item creation that some terms will be mixed which is why the magic item creation rules need to be overhauled, but I digress.

If I make a +1 dagger, (from scratch, lets us ignore the mundane crafting portion of this exercise) is the construction cost 2000 + 2 (dagger cost) + 300 (masterwork cost)?

Or, 2000 + 1 (half market price) + 150(half market price for masterwork)?

Or maybe just 2000 as the text seems to indicate the cost is subsumed in the base price, which for a +1 magic weapon is 2000.

I don't know why the construction cost would be different for mundane versus magic, but then again, we never calculate the cost of the cloak involved in a cloak of resistance, etc. At least with the groups I play with.

Thanks for any input.

No ideas, eh?

In our group of 11th level mythic tier 2 heroes, nobody has ever inflicted 300+ points of damage in a round. Maybe over 100. Does that mean we aren't decent? We certainly could be more optimized, like the eidolon. Perhaps it has something to do with gaining our mythic tiers after 9 or 10 levels.

I do agree however that the wealth by level rules are bullcrap.

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While it was not Pathfinder specific, since Pathfinder was just a gleam in Paizo's eye when we were writing it, d20 Dawning Star by Blue Devil Games included a solar system, which you can sample with this free product:

Go to Dawning Star.

That extract comes from Helios Rising, a much bigger book.

So in our game we came upon a village of dead hill giants, and wanting to get more information out of the situation, I reincarnated the chief.

Now, the question, how to adjust the physical stats? I'm tempted to say just keep them the same, since bugbears get some good bonuses, but probably not as much in the STR category since going from Large to Medium would be a -8 penalty to STR.

Anyone have thoughts? I should point out I'm not the GM, but plan to pass along any ideas as combat is quite likely and so knowing what the bugger can do is going to be useful.

I find all the points spent on being able to cast a single spell are better used on things you can use repeatedly. You are spending 10, TEN!, evo points to possibly turn 1 creature to stone, once per day. You are also going to need to spend 2 ability increases on CHA, or give your eidolon a stat boosting item, which will mean you wont be able to wear that slot. If you give yourself a decent STR to be a martial summoner, then maybe missing out on that CHA boost is ok.

Of course, I don't want to poo poo the creativity behind the design and by spending all those points you will not be creating "some big ass monster that eats everyone", so there's that.

2 ideas come to mind that don't require the ultimate magic route, but each has its own problems.

First, re-skin the Swallow Whole ability to represent the victim being slowly paralyzed. Requires the bite and grab evolutions, and knowledge of the grappling rules, but damages the target and keeps them locked down like being turned to stone.

2nd, UMD. This would require 2 skills checks unfortunately, Emulate an Ability Score and Use a Scroll, but for 1 point the Racial skill evo will give you a +8 to a skill of your choice. Also the spell isn't on the summoner list so you'll have to buy or have a party wizard make the scroll.

Off the top of my head, there are 2 mythic powers that'll help.

Depending on your mythic tier, the mythic ability Seal of the Star Tower will keep Nocty's seductive aura and domination from functioning for 1 round or more. Irrepressible Soul will also help versus the domination, not sure about the seductive aura without rereading the text.

Short answer: no.

Longer answer: not really.

DM's might consider granting a simple mythic template, but then again maybe not.

I recommend discovering how to use companions/cohorts more effectively and possibly limiting the upper reaches of mythic tiers.

But I also never plan a character around reaching level 20 because of the groups I play with. The games almost never breach level 13 before ending/crashing. As such, I probably wont plan a character around reaching past tier 5.

Status update.

The dragon, or the DM really really rolled horribly. He failed nearly every save and lost a spell to being deaf thanks to Unleash Pandemonium.

So now we are trying to decide how to split the loot.

Are there grenade/splash type items that might be useful in fighting a dragon?

Specifically, vials of acid are out since this is a green dragon.
Tanglefoot bags are out since the dragon is pretty damn big.
And alchemists fire doesn't exist as a cultural artifact yet either.

So, liquid ice comes to mind, but maybe someone with more knowledge of all the alchemical equipment can point out some useful grenade gear?


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I would say Wall of Iron would be suitable for creating the walls of a building or fortress. Not necessarily a pretty or long lasting building, but maybe if you wedge it between 2 walls of stone, it'll hold up better?

I would suggest you determine the approximate power in relation to a monstrous cohort: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/leadership---final

Looking at the animal domain, you generally get an animal companion at 4th level. So the 1st feat I would peg at 4th level. 4th level is also when some animal companions gain power. 7th level is another popular point when animal companions get more powerful, so the 2nd feat could be at 7th level. Coincidentally 7th level is when you can take the Leadership feat, which in my opinion is a better choice for having a dragon companion, but if you want one from level 1 you have to do it yourself.

We don't yet have anyone who can cast Heal, Breath of Life is the best for the moment.

The cleric cohort has a specific spell load for fighting a dragon. The stealth cleric just discovered his spell selection is hampered by a hallway that dispels illusions (invisibility) and flight. The druid probably did a little customization, but I don't know to what degree.

The wizard says he keeps one spell slot open for each level to overcome challenges we run into, but I don't know the truth of that. I suspect it is true because he seems to run out of spells pretty fast in extended combat. That is partly exasperated by the fact I don't think he bothers to craft scrolls. If we find a scroll, it is scribed into his spellbook(s) and as a campaign goal he's collected nearly every spell from levels 0 to 3 or 4, so it isn't that he doesn't have access to spells. The player doesn't bother to spend out of game time worrying about the game. When we first gained a mythic tier I posted to our group the "easy steps to making your character mythic" and 2 weeks later at the game table he asked me how to update his character.

My assumption of the dragon's lethality is based on remembering our previous battle with a non-mythic black dragon.

I just realized my PC's cohort has an extra 5th level spell slot and I'm trying to decide what spell I should put in that slot.

Here are my top 3 contenders and why:

1. Unleash Pandemonium. This 5th level spell from Sword of Valor creates a burst of storm activity that deafens anyone in the area, with no save. They also can make a will save to avoid being shaken.

2. Deathless. This 4th level spell from the mythic rules essentially keeps you from being killed by straight hit point damage, until the duration expires.

3. Spit Venom. This 4th level spell blinds the target for 1 round, no save or SR. Has the possibility of poisoning the target as well.

I like the first option because we expect to be fighting a green dragon and most of our group does not take spell resistance into account (or they do by hoping spell penetration will work). So no save and the dragon's initiative is lowered plus a possibility that it fails any concentration checks for spells it might throw our way.

I like the 2nd option because I don't want to get caught in a claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail/whatever else situation and being able to essentially defer all that damage (if it gets through stoneskin) would let me sleep better at night.

The 3rd option in one of those few spells with no SR and save (well, versus the poison, but that's secondary to the blindness). The duration is only 1 round, but that's one round to escape with.

Because I know somebody will ask, our party consists of:
Cleric focused on stealth and healing
Sorcerer focused on evocation
Wizard who sometimes pulls brilliant things out of thin air but can't remember what he was told 30 minutes earlier
And a rogue of some sort who just joined us who we have hand waved into the party.
Plus the cleric cohort.

We expect to encounter a mythic green dragon. I anticipate that while we may try to parley, eventually the wizard or sorcerer will provoke a fight. The sorcerer wants something in the dragon's hoard and the wizard encountered the dragon in a past life.

A few sessions ago our campaign ran into some Denizens of Leng. Long story attempted to be kept shorter:

We are on the trail of an artifact. We found a magic cloak that would guide you toward the artifact.

Following the cloak we found ourselves in a fungi forest and encountered the zoog. After trading some items of value, their chief brewed some tea which allowed us to see the Dreamlands and all its horror.

Urging us toward a mountain we were eventually ambushed by a group of cyclops slaves and their Denizen of Leng overseers. We captured one of the weird men but he didn't seem concerned about our questions and use of force to extract answers.

Eventually we came upon a ruin with a dock. At the dock was a blackship and we could see more of these men from Leng along with strange froggy-like critters, (moonbeasts) loading slaves on board.

Plus there was a gug guarding the outskirts of the ruins.

We attacked and managed to kill or drive off the strange creatures and disable the ship before it sailed through a black planar portal in the middle of the lake.

The slaves were a collection of lizardmen, vanara, goblins, ratfolk, bugbear, and maybe some other non-human-looking creatures who promptly either left for who knows where are went with us to find the location of the artifact, which is completely unrelated to the beings of the Dreamlands, though I'm sure they'd like it.

Dragon Disciple requires 5 ranks in Knowledge: Arcana. That means you have to have 5 levels before taking the prestige class.

From reading the later posts it looks like that is his objective, to become a dragon disciple.

It sounds like Taku Ooka Nin is more invested in the game than half the group. I would also suspect that having such a powerful PC does have something to do with taking combat seriously. Maybe not.

One incident can be written off as a bad day. But is this just one incident? I assume the guy playing on the ipad zones out every game, but have the others been unhelpful in other sessions?

I wonder perhaps if they know your stats and thus think "hey you have 10 points of DR, you should be able to shrug it off".

Our druid cast a mythic flame strike in our last session, but nothing triggered any questions at our table.

But reading this made me reread the text.

I don't think it adds "bane" damage. The wording:

The damage dealt increases to 1d8 per caster level (maximum 15d8). The area increases to a 20-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder. You may have the divine half of the damage affect only one specific creature type (as the bane weapon quality).

So, you can exclude other creatures from the divine damage by my interpretation. You might need to nuke your own party members, so you can cast it with "Oh, I'm going to make the divine damage affect only the aberration, but sorry Bob, hopefully the fire damage won't kill you."

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I hope the brawler beats up the monk and takes his stuff.

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