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DPR is only one very small part of a build. One that a smart opponent can negate. But, aside from ignoring all aspects of the game other than the one your are min-maxing for:
AC 23 is very, very low at level 20.
Why don't you try something more realistic. How about a Red Dragon, Great Wyrm.
That's a 43 AC after casting the shield spell that is standard on his list. He's not even the highest AC dragon at this level.
We can ignore the fact that Anti-Magic field is also on his standard spell list and he only needs to roll a 4 to beat your spell resistance. After all, your not interested in strategic solutions to problems, just DPR.
While we're at it, we'll say the same target has a touch AC of 20. After all, targeting a weaker defense is a way to raise DPR.
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Uggo Thud
645 DPR vs AC 42 using only equipped items and class abilities.
DPR would be higher, but I could not find the damage mods for weapons larger than colossal.
Uggo Thud
Male Oread Alchemist 1 Barbarian (Titan Mauler) 14 Fighter 5
CN Huge Outsider (native)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 13, flat-footed 25 (+7 armor, +1 Dex, -2 size, +6 natural, +5 deflection)
hp 451 (14d12+5d10+1d8+313)
Fort +35 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +14, Will +15 (+3 vs. fear); +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +4 and one size larger to resist effects of wind
Defensive Abilities bravery +3; DR 3/—; Resist acid 7, fire 7
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee (C) +3 Furious, Impact, Speed Adamantine Falcata +49/+44/+39/+34/+29 (12d6+79/17-20/x3) and
. . Bite (Tusked) +33 (1d8+23/x2)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks bomb 1d6+0 (1/day) (dc 10), pounce, rage (40 rounds/day), weapon training abilities (heavy blades +3)
Spell-Like Abilities Magic Stone (1/day)
Alchemist Spells Prepared (CL 1):
1 (1/day) Expeditious Retreat
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Statistics
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Str 54, Dex 12, Con 39, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 11
Base Atk +19; CMB +44 (+47 Bull Rushing); CMD 58 (62 vs. Disarm, 62 vs. Sunder)
Feats Bolstered Resilience, Brew Potion, Critical Focus, Endurance (Ioun stone (scarlet and green cabochan)), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Falcata), Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Falcata), Multiattack, Power Attack -5/+10, Raging Brutality (+14), Raging Vitality, Strike Back, Throw Anything, Toughness +20, Weapon Focus (Falcata), Weapon Specialization (Falcata)
Traits Adopted, Killer, Tusked
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+10 jump), Appraise +1, Bluff +1, Climb +26, Diplomacy +21, Disguise +1, Fly +10, Handle Animal +5, Heal +6, Intimidate +9, Perception +10, Ride +5, Sense Motive +2, Spellcraft +24, Stealth -7, Survival +6, Swim +26 (+30 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion), Use Magic Device +24 Modifiers alchemy +1
Languages Common, Dwarven, Ignan, Terran, Undercommon
SQ big game hunter, evade reach (10 ft), jotungrip, mutagen (dc 10), rage powers (beast totem +4 ac, beast totem, greater, beast totem, lesser, clear mind [1/rage], come and get me, energy resistance: acid, energy resistance: fire), titanic rage
Combat Gear Mutagen: +4 STR, -2 INT, +2 Nat AC, Ring of forcefangs; Other Gear Giant-hide armor (cloud giant), +3 Furious, Impact, Speed Adamantine Falcata, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +6), Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of dueling, Goggles of night, Goz mask (60 minutes/day), Headband of mental prowess (Int & Cha +6) (Diploma, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), Ioun stone (pale green prism), Ioun stone (scarlet and green cabochan), Manual of bodily health +4, Manual of gainful exercise +5, Ring of protection +5, Sash of the war champion, Winged boots (3/day), 34799 GP
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Special Abilities
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Alchemy +1 (Su) +1 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Beast Totem +4 AC (Su) +4 Natural Armor while raging.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su) Pounce ability and 1d8 claw damage while raging
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Big Game Hunter (Ex) +1 to hit and +1 dodge bonus to AC vs foes larger than self.
Bolstered Resilience Increase DR against a single attack
Bomb 1d6+0 (1/day) (DC 10) (Su) Thrown Splash Weapon deals 1d6+0 fire damage.
Bravery +3 (Ex) +3 to Will save vs. Fear
Clear Mind (1/rage) (Ex) Reroll a failed Will save while raging.
Come and Get Me (Ex) Enemies get +4 to hit and damage you, but attacks provoke AoO from you
Critical Focus +4 to confirm critical hits.
Damage Reduction (3/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Resistance, Acid (7) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Acid attacks.
Damage Resistance, Fire (7) You have the specified Damage Resistance against Fire attacks.
Endurance (Ioun stone (scarlet and green cabochan)) +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Energy Resistance: Acid (Ex) Acid Resistance while raging
Energy Resistance: Fire (Ex) Fire Resistance while raging
Evade Reach (10 ft) (Ex) Reduce chosen foe in line of sight's reach vs you by listed amount.
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Giant-hide armor (cloud giant) This drooping, many-folded suit of +3 hide armor is made from the tanned skin of an actual giant. Once per day on command, the wearer can grow to match the size of the appropriate giant, as if using giant form II. This transformation lasts up to 15 minutes, and ends when the wearer commands. Most good folk consider wearing the skins of intelligent creatures to be abhorrent. Giants gain a +2 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls against the wearer, or +4 if the wearer’s armor is made from the same kind of giant as the attacker.
Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, giant form II; Cost 34,665 gp
Gloves of dueling These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp
Jotungrip (Ex) Wield 2 handed weapon of appropriate size in 1 hand, but take -2 penalty.
Killer Add weapon's critical modifier to its critical bonus damage.
Mutagen (DC 10) (Su) Mutagen adds +4 to a physical & -2 to a mental attribute, and +2 nat. armor for 10 min.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Power Attack -5/+10 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Rage (40 rounds/day) (Ex) +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Brutality (+14) Add Constitution bonus on damage rolls
Raging Vitality +2 CON while raging, Rage does not end if you become unconscious.
Ring of forcefangs This band negates any force spell or spell-like ability targeted at the wearer. Doing so gives the ring a number of charges equal to the spell level of the incoming force effect. The ring can hold a maximum of nine charges. If an incoming force attack would charge the ring beyond this limit, the ring does not negate the attack or gain charges, and the attack affects the wearer normally. On command, the wearer can use the ring’s charges to cast magic missile, unleashing one missile (1d4+1 force damage) per charge but no more than five missiles per round.
Note: When first added, the magic missile spell for this ring will have all its charges expended - as the ring absorbs charges, these can be un-spent.
Construction
Requirements Forge Ring, Heighten Spell, magic missile; Cost 4,000 gp
Sash of the war champion This bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer’s shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, cat’s grace, remove fear; Cost 2,000 gp
Strike Back A readied melee attack can be used against a foe whose reach allows them to attack you, but whom you could not attack.
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Titanic Rage (Su) Enlarge person while rage, but 2 rds of rage used per rd & exhausted at end.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +3 (Ex) +3 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Winged boots (3/day) Fly as spell for up to 5 minutes. +4 to fly checks.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
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DPR is only one very small part of a build. One that a smart opponent can negate. But, aside from ignoring all aspects of the game other than the one your are min-maxing for:
.....
We can ignore the fact that Anti-Magic field is also on his standard spell list and he only needs to roll a 4 to beat your spell resistance. After all, your not interested in strategic solutions to problems, just DPR.
.....
*Parts of quote edited for brevity*
EXACTLY Artanthos. People seem to have just ignored this when I said it two..no, probably three times.
THIS is why the fighter is better, in general, in combat, than an eidolon. They can do more than just DPR and they can do it all very, very well. I'm talking about pure fighter, too. With barbarian, alchemist, etc, you can go nuts. I keep saying pure fighters won't have more dpr than an eidolon aiming for the same goal.
If an eidolon isn't dealing hundreds of points of damage per round, then it's not dealing all that much. In order to get enough accuracy to not miss like a 3/4 class, you end up having a massive damage per hit which pushes you beyond fighter territory in damage. Doing this, reduces the eidolon to a very narrow purpose due to evolution point costs. Especially if you aren't a half elf.
Eidolons are sort of like rogues, monks and fighters all in one. Narrow your focus down to almost only one little aspect of a thing by optimizing, or broaden your horizons and be versatile but not as singularly potent.
If you were to take any of these optimized eidolons and have them in a situation that didn't involve dealing hundreds of points of damage per round...these eidolons would become almost instantly useless. No scent, no flight, no immunities or resistances, no breath weapons or unnatural auras, fast healing, damage reduction, nope. None of that stuff. Low ac, etc. Buffing such an eidolon is the equivalent of enchanting a vorpal sword with crit range 2-20, with the Keen enhancement.
The eidolon I posted doesn't need any + to hit or + to damage. Any offensive buff is largely useless because even with damage reduction the eidolon will deal so much per hit that only things with dr15 or more over epic and fast healing are going to live more than a round. I mean 252 dpr through ANY DR 10 sounds like plenty of damage to me. And we already know he's not missing. At this point, buffs are attempts to make the eidolon more than just some generic looking bullet.
Okay, so in high level play (which most don't play and takes long to get there) a Fighter can beat the Eidolon in usefulness in combat, sometimes. Everywhere else the Eidolon is probably better. And then the Summoner does his action.
What is your point again?
Aye, Immortal.
The Eidolon by itself is fairly equal to a fighter. Plus it comes with this nifty spellcaster with its own set of actions attached to it, and skills and stuff.
That's the rub. WIth buffs from the summoner, many of the weaknesses of the Eidolon go away. The fighter has no class abilities that get rid of his own weaknesses, for the most part.
This uber eidolon IS a glass cannon, we can all see that. But it's still a viable replacement for a fighter, and with summoner buffs, does the job really well, too.
==Aelryinth
Aye, Immortal.
The Eidolon by itself is fairly equal to a fighter. Plus it comes with this nifty spellcaster with its own set of actions attached to it, and skills and stuff.
That's the rub. WIth buffs from the summoner, many of the weaknesses of the Eidolon go away. The fighter has no class abilities that get rid of his own weaknesses, for the most part.
This uber eidolon IS a glass cannon, we can all see that. But it's still a viable replacement for a fighter, and with summoner buffs, does the job really well, too.
Also, a note for AMF - you can't 'hand them off'. They are an emnation centered on you, not something you cast on an object and give to your melee toon.
And while I enjoy a good fighter build, a winged aasimar is NOT 99% of fighters. In a true fighter discussion, race should play no part whatsoever, to keep the example as universal as possible.
==Aelryinth
I'm not sure what games some of you guys are playing, but the fighter in over games pretty much at every level is better than the eidolon, of course it could be because our GM believes in intellegent enemies, and it's pretty easy to exploit the many weaknesses of the eidolon.
What weaknesses exactly? And the fighter has no weaknesses? Or does your GM only exploit weaknesses of eidolons?
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An intelligent enemy should be able to at least determine that the eidolon is summoned or an outsider and take steps appropriately. On that basis alone you get many 'hit or miss' results such as enemies trying to dispel it (miss) and enemies simply fighting it as an outsider (hit?).
Also, if an enemy group is intelligent and resourceful, even if weaker than your party, what would a real group of people do if a nasty r@p# beast was annihilating an ally a turn? I would think that their tactics would reflect the situation. And if we are talking about the kind of levels where an eidolon can consistently one shot targets (8+) then the versatility of the enemy group should be able to compensate for the single optimized strategy the eidolon has (move, then full attack, or charge then devour your soul). I admit, if your party is working perfectly, the eidolon should probably always have the option of soul devouring charges and five foot movements into full attacks. But things aren't static, circumstances (including terrain) can change and of course, someone could just try hitting the eidolon back....if it's devouring souls, it's not tanking blows like a champ either (except via the enhanced lifelink).
I am arguing about the Eidolon only. The summoner class is a whole other ballgame. I think they are extremely powerful and clearly moreso than a fighter. But that's because of the spellcasting, the eidolon and the summoned monsters...if it were just a commoner with an eidolon, I'd have to say the fighter is a better class than the summoner. But the argument here is between fighters and eidolons. Fighters don't need to sacrifice anything to get combat versatility. Every level and each piece of gear adds more options to something they can do extremely well.
And unless the fighters race increases his effective character level in some way (Aasimars don't) then it is perfectly fair to pick an Aasimar fighter just as it is to pick a catfolk or dwarven or half orc one.
My point is that when a fighter gets a new slew of feats, he's not JUST hitting more times and hitting harder. He's more capable of dealing with a combat situation beyond JUST that. He can better protect others, better fight defensively, better deal with not being able to full attack, better able to fall back on a ranged weapon and be just as effective with it. The eidolon can not do ALL of these things no matter how much optimization you squeeze in on it.
Yeah but that can be said about every character in a group. Also, if you dedicate all resources just to counter the PET of a still useful caster, then a group already has won. Eidolon dies? Summon Monster/Summon Eidolon.
And if you build your eidolon intelligently and not only for maximum DPR, it has so many uses even outside of combat that it can easily replace a party member.
I think paizo did a very poor job in the APG, especially with the summoner.
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Eidolons are not so powerful (from what I can tell) as to require that a group of enemies dedicate all of their resources to deal with just it. You have placed the eidolon as at least equal to or definitely exceeding any player, so much so that it requires an entire group of bad guy to deal with just it? Does this imply that it takes an entire group of enemies to deal with just your wizard and just the archer and just the cleric and just the rogue?
I agree, summoners are competent spellcasters...with better AC and hp than almost all others. This makes the summoner quite dangerous. They also have reasonable combat ability. The eidolon gives the summoner a lot of additional punch via bonus actions (and that is where the extra hp come from and some of the extra AC). Depending on what you set the eidolon to optimize on depends on which of these features you can capitolize on with your summoner/eidolon combo.
Did you focus on dpr? Then your hp isn't as high as you think (because hte eidolon should be taking a reasonable beating with it's low ac). Did you make it a tank? Well, now you will both live quite a while..but your damage output won't be fantastic.
Making an eidolon capable of being very useful outside of combat via intelligent design (ie not making it capable of dealing hundreds of damage a round that's CLEARLY never necessary until after levels 23+) is very possible. I TOTALLY agree on that point. You can make a capable combatant who is versatile both in and out of a fight. You can make an eidolon that has a reasonable mix of offensive and defensive capabilities, useful alternative techniques, and variegated out of combat capabilities that a party would find extremely useful.
THAT'S how I feel they should be overall. But we live in a world of optimizers so you don't see that so much. I concede that the combination of summoner and eidolon is terrifically effective and that the class is extraordinarily versatile. But really, it just feels like a magic based rogue/monk type thing that has twice the actions per turn. Since it is magic, it is a good bit more versatile (but since they made for few spells known it helps balance it out). I love the class, personally. You can (again, like a rogue) build them to do almost anything you want. Unlike rogues, it is very EASY do do anything you want without a lot of effort being put into it- or because you have no idea how the evolutions work and are taking them incorrectly.
But to prove my point about how here, we are largely optimizers and elsewhere there are 'regular players':
I don't see many eidolon builds that aren't half elf. When I don't, I find a lot of humans or small races on mounts.
But where are the dwarven summoners, the half orcs? Catfolk and Aasimar ones? These all have PERFECT role play flavor....but because of a few internet guides we see the same effect you get in collectible card games: it's called net decking- where people go online to find out what works and what is good, and then copy it, season to taste. Viola, they have a 'unique' character. This is where it becomes easy to see imbalances and where most arguments ultimately become silly because anything you can say about a summoner being good, I can just come up with some equally BS fighter build that makes it look like summoners don't know which end of the sword they're about to be stabbed with. And then you argue back and someone else chimes in with an optimized goblin dervish paladin barbarian ninja with a dip in Bull crap that makes both of our arguments look stupid. So, I'm not against you. I'm just saying that if you take 'average' game play, the main issue of summoners is they are easy to make powerfully useful mistakes with and the class, overall, is just very strong due to the action economy. If, for examples, no-spellcasting classes could get additional standard actions from Haste (the magic of haste disrupts accelerated spellcasting maybe) or some other slight but actually rather significant perk that worked along those lines and was seeded once or twice into various martials, then I doubt the summoner arguments would be *quite* so bad.
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And while I enjoy a good fighter build, a winged aasimar is NOT 99% of fighters. In a true fighter discussion, race should play no part whatsoever, to keep the example as universal as possible.
==Aelryinth
And yet, every single time time an eidolon is overpowered thread comes up, half-elf is specified as the summoners race.
Truthfully my fighter was not built as an aasimar for optimization reasons. I was building a character to fit a specific piece of artwork I happened to like. She's hardly optimized, but has answers for most problems in or out of combat.
Any class can be built to be overpowered. Any race has builds were it is optimal. A player that optimizes well will always outperform non-optimized characters regardless of class played..
@Dark Immortal
In my opinion and experience as Gamemaster you have to tailor your encounters around the abilities of your party. Now, I sure didn't want to imply that a single Eidolon can beat a whole encounter, but the usual answer I see, whenever the imbalance of Eidolons/Summoners comes up, is that you can add this or that to your encounter, which largely defines how an encounter plays out and how much the other party members can contribute.
Per example, the AMF tactic suggested by Artanthos might shut the Eidolon down, but it will also affect your whole encounter and this might lead to players not having fun. This problem exists not only in this context, every overly optimized character can lead to a frustrated party, even more so when said party isn't nearly as optimized.
However, I have less problems justifying specific encounter design to even the field if I have one such player, then if I have to do it because a pet is causing this issue and then the player of said pet has his own actions as well, which may further lead to frustration at the table, because frankly, the summoner is a very solid class even without his Eidolon.
Now I understand that this isn't a problem at tables where every player is properly optimized. But I guess that at the majority of tables this isn't the case, and this class is like a jackpot for your powergamer/optimizer. It's a candystore where he can pick the best abilities for his pet and gets some of the best spells as icing on the cake. As I said, there wouldn't be so many threads about this if the class where without issues.
And I totally agree with the rest of your post by the way. The good thing is, every group can decide for themselves what they want and what they don't want. I'm just hoping that paizo is a bit more careful in the future with class design.
Now I understand that this isn't a problem at tables where every player is properly optimized. But I guess that at the majority of tables this isn't the case, and this class is like a jackpot for your powergamer/optimizer. It's a candystore where he can pick the best abilities for his pet and gets some of the best spells as icing on the cake. As I said, there wouldn't be so many threads about this if the class where without issues.
If you're assuming that the characters at a table are not all that optimized, why does it matter if the summoner is a 'jackpot' for an optimizer?
If everyone in the group optimizes, then everyone stays at relative levels of power. If no one in the group optimizes, then everyone is still at relative levels of power. Any class can outshine the rest of the party if you've got one or two optimizers in a group that otherwise does not do that.
Don't get me wrong, I realize the summoner is a powerful class, but with similar levels of system mastery, I'm inclined to say it still comes out on par with others. Maybe there's some disparity in a few cases, but that's true of other classes as well.
there is the possibility that because the class is so easy to optimize/power game that it tends to draw player with the "i want to be the(that) guy personalty
i want to be the guy...
that can kill any monster in one round
that cant be hit by any thing
that can grapple any thing
that can "win" the game by him self
that the party cant make it with out
that is solo reason the town stands today
and so on and so on
it gives them a feeling of accomplishment with they my be lacking in life or the feeling of control over something they they tend to to have a need in life that powerful class like this one help give them.
i do agree that all class can be made just as good if not better then a summoner.
however these people tend not to have the skill or ability to make normal class this good or are not willing to put the work in to doing it.
(this is the reason i feel we have so may overpower builds that are wrong, these types of people do not read the rules or just disregard then then get mad when they are called out)
these are normally people who go online to get there builds (not saying all people that do this are just some)
there is noting wrong with want your moment in the spot light everyone need and wants it that well and good.
I.W.T.B.G people feel they need almost all the time and when someone has the light that is not them they tend to belittle the person or there act
as you can bet most people like this are not well like at the table they tend to take the fun out of the game for other.
with summoner being such a easy class to get what they want and power game
the class get a bad rap form the people that that tend to play them manly do to the player them self's
when 3.0/3.5 came first came out these people played barbarians for the high damage out put
optimize/power gamed builds do have there place and many groups play with the knowledge that that what they need to do to live.
i by no mends find this bad if that what the group is about.
the problem is when the group is a easy mode group and one guy is all about being they guy or is built for hard mode
to rap this up as i could go on and on.... i by no means am singling any one i know or that is on the form out if you feel offend by this post that is something you may want to reflect.
my only goal was to point out a reason we may have so may people that have had or are having problems with this summoner
i like the class a lot an yet have never played it my self as i don't like short spell list just not my cup of tea.
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The short spell list is pretty versatile. You have enough room to actually theme cast (ie cast spells that all fit a theme) and there is more than one theme you can go for: easily three. In fact, my summon fully intends to cast spells as often as a wizard and to know as many or more than a sorcerer. Granted, he'll have to use items to pull this off, but hey, that's what RPing is about right? The fact that you CAN play like the old wizard (effectively) and be versatile with a class that only gets a few spells known, period and still cast like a sorcerer is pretty cool. It's a form of optimization, sure, but the fact I CAN optimize to know several spells and cast hordes of them each day on a class specifically designed not to do that.....awesome.
And that's why we have problems with Eidolons. They're so good that all it takes is for someone to think the same way I did and be as good as I am at it (or better) and bam! You've got a beast.