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Hi everyone.
We've been having some discussion in the super secret judges chambers. I proposed I be able to post the top 89 items so that those interested can see what items were voted into the top 89 by you the voters. I thought this was important for a couple reasons: first, you know the top 32, but not the alts and not the balance of the 89. Therefore it is hard to determine where any items in your own personal top 32 list might have fallen by voter rank. Second, I think it enhances our discussion on how the judges chose what we chose and why by showing you the other items we chose between. Seeing only the top 32 and not the others that were available to us makes that conversation only half informed.
Part of the judges chambers discussion was how to provide the items without revealing ranking because that isn't something we want to do yet at this part of the contest. So it was decided that an alphabetical list of the top 89 was best.
Also, one of the concerns is that posting this list would lead to criticism of the judges, why we chose one over another. But the judges all felt we had reasons for our choices and that it would actually aid not hinder the discussion and that this community is a good supportive community. We also felt that as the critique my item threads were started that one by one we would mention if an item was top 89 so if the info was going to get out, why not just let it out.
So, without further ado, here is your top 89 as you voted them, in alphabetical order (not by rank):
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Argent Cigarillo Case
Blackbriar Boots
Blightseed Oil
Bracelet of Versatile Summoning
Bracers of the Skinchanger
Candle of Distant Assurance
Captain's Tricorne
Chalice of Communal Dweomer
Cincture of Calistria
Clasp of Winter’s Embrace
Dimensional Stable
Disappearing Weapon Cord
Door Chalk
Earthen Spine
Ego Shroud
Erastil's Footprints
Fan, Dragonscale
Flute of the Macaw
Glove of Saturation
Gloves of the Grenadier
Greaves of Twisted Earth
Hand Wraps of Unerring Flows
Ironseeker Compass
Lantern of Ethereal Light
Light Shelf
Mage’s Battlecloak
Mantle of a Thousand Hands (alternate)
Marbles of Mischief
Matryoshka of the Planar Cadre
Medicine Poppet
Mother Tree's Unctuous Night Tea
Norn Thread (alternate)
Orator's Torc
Orb of Hungry Fireflies
Paper Messenger
Patchwork Cat
Pilgrim's Reliquary
Record of the Fallen
Scatterstep Boots (alternate)
Shoes of Sudden Escape
Shrieking Talisman of Expectorant Curses
Shroud of Certain Return
Softening Powder
Stolen Tears of the Winter Witch
Summoning Siphon (alternate)
Surcoat of Accord
Swarmbane Gauntlets
Tabard of Cunning Tactics
Talisman of the Umbral Oak
Tears of the Fey
Tempest Regalia
Traveler's Hair Tie
Vestments of Divine Embrace
Volcanic Helm
Weathered Quiver
Winter's Clutch
Witchfrost Heart
Now if you have a gripe about an item that is NOT in the top 89, you will have to take that up with your fellow voters, not with the judges.
ALL of the above items had a positive vote count, in other words they did not have more votes against than votes for. In other words, the top 89 comprise ALL items that had a positive vote count, meaning those items that had more votes for than against (and a couple--three or four--that were tied). We felt that was a natural and logical cut off for creating our group of keepers from which we judges then sorted out the top 32. I dont fully understand the math but there is an easy way and a more complicated way to sort it out and we used the more expansive way, meaning more items for us to consider.
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I am one of the few that did not make the top 89, but I made the cull.
There is always hope next time around!
Wow! I'm impressed with this, Clark. You really can't get much more open than that. Now, hypothetically if I was looking to enter the competition next year, I'd look at the Top 89 when people post them in the Review threads and attempt to work out what separated the 32 from the other 89.
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I am one of the few that did not make the top 89, but I made the cull.
There is always hope next time around!
Inkwell, that just means the voting public voted against your item in the pairings more times than they voted for it. That doesnt mean it was bad :) Thus the perils of a public vote system.
One of the reasons we are being so transparent in this is to see how well we think the system works.
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wow.
Proving once again Paizo listens to it fans.
Nice, thanks to Clark & the rest of the judges for doing this.
Personally, it DOES make me more secure about my tastes that a LOT of my favorites are represented in that list. Hell, two of the alternates are in my top 32, and the other two were high in my keep folder.
Clark, I think you judges just made around 50 people really happy (since you already revealed a few of them before this).
I agree with the sentiment of the judges on this, it does matter what floated to the top yet still didn't make it. I sense that the debate between superstar for this competition and superstar for the average voter is going to take primacy this year.
I see many things here that I voted on and felt deserved the chance, and many others that I feel we're too gimmicky, poorly executed, or poorly written, yet often voted on anyway because the core idea was cool(er). Perhaps this is also food for thought, for here they all are.
I really hope all of the almosts post up in the critique thread - if they can get in there before me and the crowd, that is :-)
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Wow, I'm surprised how many of those I never saw.
It's like I said, if we can't defend our choices we shouldn't be judges. We are all very comfortable with what we chose and why and seeing the ones not selected helps inform your understanding of why we selected the ones we did. Plus, this community is so great and supporting we knew it would be a very high level discussion. Plus, as I argued to the powers that be, turning the brains in this community loose on this information may lead to analysis and results and thoughts and patterns that we haven't noticed ourselves, which only helps our analysis of the process. So have at it!
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So, without further ado, here is your top 89 as you voted them, in alphabetical order (not by rank):
Thanks for doing this. It definitely provides some context. And massive encouragement for those in these 57. And helps for me to know my fellow voters liked many of the same items I did, so I'm not *completely* off base!
clasp of winter's embrace
stolen tears of the winter witch
winter's clutch
witchfrost heart
I said in another thread that the wintry/witchy items were out in force this year, and they were almost all strong. Proof of that right here.
Wow, I'm surprised how many of those I never saw.
I've seen almost all of them, but I don't think I saw any of the alternates. Go figure.
Interesting. I've seen every item on that list. There are a couple I'm surprised aren't there. Means my personal top 32 had a couple that ranked below 89.
Hwell, that confirmed my sinking suspicion that my item and skills were a tad too pedestrian and lacking this year...didn't even break into the positive vote 89.
But as usual, thank you Clark for posting these.
My choices for favorites again largely coincide with these top 89 voted. Something like 65-70 of these were items I picked as up votes.
Strangely, the vowel as a first letter in the names were a small group.
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Yay! I'm first- alphabetically!
I am amazed the community voted the top 89 in perfect alphabetical order! What are the odds!?
On a more serious note, I think I see a pattern. Creativity and flavor are very important. The item needs to spark the imagination in some way to get up voted. Being niche, SAK, SIAC or wordy is less of a factor. At least that is what I am seeing. I saw almost all of these items and I remember them because of some evocative aspect they had.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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Clark, thanks for the list! It's indeed very useful to know what kind of items the voters liked.
Would it be possible to get the judges' comments on the top 89? I presume you wrote some comments for each of the items when you were debating on which items make the top 32?
Thanks, Clark & Sean & Wolfgang, for letting the Top 89 be made public. I'm excited to see that the voters liked my dragonscale fan. I'm also looking forward to posting it in the critique thread to get feedback for improvement. For now, I'm off to critique more of the Top 32. :)
Wow! I'm impressed with this, Clark. You really can't get much more open than that. Now, hypothetically if I was looking to enter the competition next year, I'd look at the Top 89 when people post them in the Review threads and attempt to work out what separated the 32 from the other 89.
I look at this sentiment somewhat differently. I'd also be looking at the top 89 for the reason that they were all popular with the voting public. What separates the Top 32 from the rest of the Top 89 is only that three people with casting votes got to pick them from the rest. Now Sean, Clark and Wolfgang hae pedigree, nous, experience and gravitas, but ultimately they are still just three people with their own likes, dislikes, bias and eccentricities. Next year there could be three (or more or less) different judges, or the whole thing could work completely differently, without a community vote first up.(But I'm betting against that. This has been way too fun!!!) And those judges will/could have different likes, dislikes, bias and eccentricities.
One could say that the same bias/likes etc is true of every voter, but there are thousands of us and our voting patterns are just as eccentric let alone our methodology or favouritism - overall our eccentricities have been math'd and averag'd as it were to become a "rule of the top 89" - the "publically positively favourite".
So, to conclude - I think the rule of the top 89 is the key, whatever that may be. Find that, and you have a chance that the judges of 2014 may pick you for the Top 32.
This competition has been very interesting this year - it seems the judges vote only once ever year, then provide feedback. This year there was a pre-judge sorting of popularity. Then the judges picked from a select group - the "positively voted" as it were. Now the voting is back in the hands of the voting public. And that is why the voting public's Top 89, or "positively Superstar" are the items to watch.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9
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Thanks for the list Clark! It bears proof that one single person can't vote an item onto or off of the list! I had a few items in my keep folder I never voted against that didn't make the top 89. One of them I saw over 40 times and another almost 30 times.
Roughly 40% of the judges picks were in my Keep folder.
Roughly 33% of the voters picks were in my Keep folder.I would say I'm even more out of touch with the voting public than I am with the judges, except I connected with the voting public on the most important level of all: I designed an item they voted into the Top 89.
(My item was the disappearing weapon cord.
I have a similar feeling. I picked 25 of the Top 32 in my list. 4 of my keeps didn't make the top 89 list. My auto-reject list had 29 items and only 7 made the top 89 (4 made the Top 32).
Thank you for this, Clark. It is heartening to know that I had at least made it to the top 89 (Glove of Saturation). Now I just get to wait until the critique my item thread to see what prevented it from being top 32. I have my suspicions, but I would rather see what the judges say, to see if it was what I suspect.
I just hope I wasn't the dreaded, unanimous "no" of # 9
Wow, I am a bit stunned I did not make it even to the top 89. I think RPG Superstar just isn't the way for me to break in.
What do you mean? Maybe you made the top 93 or the top 102. As Clark said, the top 89 is all the items with a positive vote count...plus a few more. It's not a magic number. Don't be discouraged.
That said, no reason to put all your breaking-in eggs in one Superstar basket, either.
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Record of the Fallen was mine, I made it to the top 89, and that feels like an accomplishment to be proud of. I wish I'd made it farther, but there's always next year!
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I am amazed the community voted the top 89 in perfect alphabetical order! What are the odds!?
On a more serious note, I think I see a pattern. Creativity and flavor are very important. The item needs to spark the imagination in some way to get up voted. Being niche, SAK, SIAC or wordy is less of a factor. At least that is what I am seeing. I saw almost all of these items and I remember them because of some evocative aspect they had.
Yep, I'm noticing this as well. Flavor is definitely one of the most important parts for these items, and having a bit of gonzo seems to help a lot as well. I think those help a lot more in capturing the public's vote than having a good balanced item.
I do not, of course, mean to imply that these items are badly balanced. I just imagine that an item with awesome flavor would excite more people than an item with exquisite balance, or an item that seems overpowered but has some subtle powerchecks. This in turn will cause the items with great flavor to be voted up to the top, and in theory let the Judges figure out the balanced ones (or the ones that aren't so balanced, but have that intangible quality known as mojo).
Thank You Clark this will help allot...
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Echoing what's been said, I think the most important thing to take away here is two-fold. First of all, what did these items do well? Second, what did the items that made the Top 32 do to stand apart?
If you didn't make it to the unofficial "top 89" I still really hope you post your item in the critique thread. There are several items I quite liked, but maybe they needed a tweak or two, and I really would love to give feedback.
And, if you did make the list, I hope you'll do the same so we can continue to parse out what set the items apart in the eyes of the judges.
As always, Clark, thanks for posting this and just generally being awesome.
This was the first year that I've mustered up the courage to submit, so I'm pretty excited to see that I made this list! I will post my item in the critique thread tomorrow.
Thank you very much for posting the top 89!
I have followed this contest for years, this is the first time I entered. Voting definitely shed a lot of light on what I can do better for item design. My item was the mage's battlecloak, and I happily admit it needs some polishing and a few errors fixed.
Thanks Clark. This has certainly given me hope and rekindled my enthusiasm for RPG Superstar!
Jacob 1, I feel the same. I really liked my item, and I'm very curious to see what people disliked about it.
I'm honestly a bit ... baffled ... by some of the results, as several of these items were things I voted against almost every time I saw them. Now, a good chunk of my personal keper list is *also* on here but I apparently have to really rethink what I submit if I try again next year.
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Let me help you a bit with the likely difference between what the public may be looking for (thus, how to get voted into the top group) and what the judges are looking for (how to make the top 32 from that group).
The two groups (voters vs. judges) are, in my view, looking for different things. That, to me, explains why some items got voted into the top 89 but are not items we as judges would put in the top 32.
Let me try to explain. I think it will help. Neil and I have been saying this over and over for a long time: the voters are looking purely at items, often with an "I want that item!" view of what is good or bad; the judges, on the other hand, are looking at the designer behind the item. Because in the end we are not really picking items, we are picking the best 32 contestants for RPG Superstar and the goal of RPG Superstar is not to find a great set of items, it is to find a great set of potential new designers.
This explains, I think, why voters tend to like and vote in walkie-talkie items or items that are really useful to a player while the judges never really seem to advance those kinds of items.
That was one of my concerns about a public vote to sort out the items. But having seen the results, my fears are allayed. I think the community of voters managed to find the best items, or at least the ones we likely would have marked as keepers.
The bottom line, though, is that if it is sufficiently awesome then both groups will like it.
Thanks for this list, even though it's so very double-edged...
It's nice to see what the next group of items would've been, but hurts even more to see that my entry (the Ethos Swarm Charm) didn't even make the top 89. Ouch!
And I was specifically trying to target the general audience too. I agree with the Jacobs; I will be looking forward to the feedback thread to see where I failed.
And be warned, I will be back next year with an item that will crush all that stand in my path. (Hey, maybe a golem, that should crush things real good, right?)
My item made the top 89! Brilliant! Thanks, Clark! : )
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*splutters* Holy crap, mine is up there. That was unexpected but a pleasant surprise.
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The disappointing part is not really that the voters didn't go for my item. I know that it had at least two flaws that could have turned people off. The worst part is that I know and knew the whole time that I did way better work in the practice threads than in the contest itself.
Most of the items that Struck me favorably are up there, but there are a few that I really hated that seem to not have rubbed most people he wrong way. It is probably the most useful lesson I will take away for next year is how to adjust my taste to that of the community (assuming that there is voting again).
The disappointing part is not really that the voters didn't go for my item. I know that it had at least two flaws that could have turned people off. The worst part is that I know and knew the whole time that I did way better work in the practice threads than in the contest itself.
Well, with all that practice, you'll have an amazing entry next year, I'm sure. :)
The disappointing part is not really that the voters didn't go for my item. I know that it had at least two flaws that could have turned people off. The worst part is that I know and knew the whole time that I did way better work in the practice threads than in the contest itself.Well, with all that practice, you'll have an amazing entry next year, I'm sure. :)
Oddly enough, that is exactly what people told me this last year. :) I think I just have to get my work out there to a larger audience this year since crowd pleasing is really he first part of the contest, as it really should be with a community this great.
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Please don't thank me, thank Paizo and thank yourselves.
It was my idea to do this, but they were the ones that gave me permission to post this information. For those of you who participate in contests of any kind, you probably know that it is extremely rare to have this level of transparency. Most contests don't reveal the "close but not quite" entries, at least that is my experience. That says a lot about not only how cool Lisa and Vic and all the people at Paizo are, it also says a lot about how Paizo feels about the quality of this community that you can receive such information and not have it cause hurt feelings and other negative reactions.
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...since crowd pleasing is really he first part of the contest, as it really should be with a community this great.
Well said.
I think you are right on the money, and that is one of the reasons I didn't have much hesitation* in the use of a public vote to help sort items. It's not like the voters are the unwashed clueless masses. We're not asking people to randomly sample the new Pepsi flavor. The voters here are members of this very informed and motivated community. So, as you say, pleasing this crowd is an appropriate thing to aim for since the community is that great.
Clark
*Not that any hesitation I might have had would make a difference, this is Paizo's decision not mine. But I like to think they would have listened to my concerns.
This explains, I think, why voters tend to like and vote in walkie-talkie items or items that are really useful to a player while the judges never really seem to advance those kinds of items.
Was that a dig at me, Clark? Was it? ;)
Kidding, kidding!
Seriously, though, I agree with what you're saying. I know when I was voting I tried to look I think the part that's confusing (for me) is that it's hard to find that line between where judges say "Players would totally want this, and I see the potential in this designer" vs. "I can see why players would want this, and it's not a bad item, but I think we have better choices avalible."
I think the "sufficiently awesome" bit also trips people up. Voters and judges agree that SIAC items are bad, BUT it seems like at least one gets in every year. I saw a few items that maybe tread close to that line or otherwise come off as unoriginal/overdone in their very core concept, but they were presented in a neat way that made me like them anyway. Is there any sort of litmus test for this on the judging end, or is it just gut feelings (or, more probably, honed intuition)?
Congrats to everyone who made the list. You guys (who aren't already on it) have a real chance of making the top 32 next year. Keep up the good work.