RPG Superstar 2015
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka mamaursula
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I am sorry but I disagree here - I had to deal with violence on a daily basis. There wasn't a day where I wasn't punched or tripped or had my school-bag thrown on the roof, pushed into a garbage bin or into the trough, because I was a gamer and a geek.I didn't fit in I was bad at Rugby, I couldn't surf or play cricket.
When the 60 minutes episode on D&D thing happened, my life got more difficult.
The worst teasing the hardest stuff to deal with was that done by female students.
It was repeatedly pointed out to me that I was less than male and I would never be attractive to anybody....
I proved them wrong and have a wonderful wife and daughters... It took me a very long time to trust people .
I am not suggesting in anyway that male gamers do not suffer at the hands of others.
I am suggesting that within this community we also suffer. If we believe Clark, SKR and the others in the know who say that only 5% of the entries were from women, that leads me to a little math:
5% Top 89 entries = 4.45, round up to a whole 5 women.
Trusting the mathematical estimates from other RPGSS threads, 5% of approximately 700 items = 35 entries by women.
35 women out of 700 entries.
The point of my post was to open a dialogue to help the 5% of our community's population grow and foster inclusion to further participation, not argue over who had it worse when they were growing up.
It is never okay that people are beat up, mocked, harassed, emotional and physically abused or pushed to suicide or homicide because of their hobbies. A hobby that hurts no one and encourages team thinking and problem solving. I am sorry that you suffered as a teen-ager, I did too. I had no girlfriends, every last individual I counted as a friend was a guy, because I have always been the 5%.
EDIT: for spelling because apparently the little red squiggly line wasn't enough of an indicator for me.
<lots of things, both sad and promising>
*sigh* We are so much starting that discussion about the state of gaming industry when it comes to women designers once the Super Star goes into the later phase. Don't think we forgot about it.
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There is a LOT I would love to say on this subject. ...I just helped a friend of mine with a project about this very issue for a Women's Studies class.
...However...I don't know if this is really the time or the place. I love that we can talk about this and that people want to start a dialogue, but I feel like we're getting rather off topic. I also don't want to steal any thunder from the Top 32.
These conversations need to happen, but we're touching on issues that reach far beyond the scope of RPGSS.
Though, as far as RPGSS is concerned, there is one thing I'm trying to figure out. Almost all of my friends are gamers, and close to half (or possibly even over half, I'd have to count) of those friends are female. Now, level of interest runs the gamut, but everyone is at least a part of the hobby. As far as I know, I'm the only girl who's seriously taken up any game design projects. Even a girlfriend of mine who's been gaming as long as, if not longer, than most of the guys I know never discusses game design. She's more into other systems than Pathfinder/DnD, but I don't remember her ever mentioning any homebrew stuff. I actually don't think she's ever run a game. Another friend of mine who's newer to the hobby is about to run her first game, so maybe she'll get more into design because of that.
...In contrast, most of my guy friends have tinkered with design somewhat. Whether it's building a custom setting, or even just tweaking and reskinning items and NPCs to fit a different theme, they pretty much all do it.
Why is that? Because I think that's part of why we don't have more females submitting to RPGSS.
Women will rule the world, just in time for the machines to take over, true story. As our future rulers may I represent men for a moment and ask that you amazing, strong, and powerful matriarchs of the future do us a teenie favor. [kneels] Please, please, please [grovels] do not do to our fantasy genre [/grovels] what you ladies did to the vampire genre [/kneels] we'll be good I promise.
(Tongue firmly in cheek here, I game gamed with many women and you ladies are truly underrepresented in the media perception of what it is to be a gamer.)
Having flashbacks to being the only dude in a women's lit class because hey, its still a lit class. I'll be sitting quietly in the corner now...
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Women didn't "do anything" to the vampire genre, any more than women like Britney Spears "did something" to the pop music genre. :/
"I hate Twilight" is the edition war of vampire fandom. There's no point to it except t bash others and make yourself feel superior.
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"I hate Twilight" is the edition war of vampire fandom. There's no point to it except t bash others and make yourself feel superior.
Well, to be fair, there are other things besides lame vampires not to like, such as the terrible message it sends to young women in regard to relationships and their role in them, among other things.
I think we can all agree that there are a lot of different experiences, and they're uniquely different and have a unique perspective to share with other gamers, male or female. I would simply caution against discounting an opinion simply because it doesn't match up with YOUR experience. Just because your experience was different does not make this an agree/disagree paradigm -- in other words, just because someone else's experience was different does not make it less valid than yours. Keep that mind, please.
If that is in response to me (if it's not, then I guess ignore this), this is what I said, with some emphasis:
I think if you want to do this, it's important also not to necessarily assume that all women aren't submitting because they feel afraid to because of worrying about being taken seriously. Some might. I know in the thread that Sean started some female posters said they had that hesitation. I don't (I had hesitations, but not that one). Others don't. And I personally feel patronized in fact when people assume I might not participate in something because I might "feel intimidated" because I am a woman, as well meaning as the person making that assumption might be (I am not saying you are making that assumption, I am talking about a general situation). Others on the other hand do need some kind of reassurance this is a fair game.
I think I did a fair job of acknowledging there are different experiences and in fact was asking for those different experiences to be acknowledged. All I asked was not for all women to be lumped into one experience or category, because I think nuance and variations of experience exist. In other words, we basically agree, I think?
Moreover just because I said I did not have such hesitations is certainly not me saying anyone else is wrong for feeling differently than I do. If I somehow implied otherwise, I sincerely apologize. That was certainly not my intention.
I've been rambling on a bit, but this was my point:
The best way to find out? Ask. Don't assume the one overriding issue you think it is is the real problem (maybe it is, but don't assume). Run a formal survey. Talk to people at cons.
I think if folks really want to discern better about the whys and hows of superstar demographics and women's participation, some formal examination of it may be in order. We can all talk about our individual experiences all day, but in the end we're a small sample of both gamers in general and even of women gamers in particular. A broader attempt at information finding--and outreach--may be called for. In my opinion, of course.
I think it's better to ask people how they feel than assume how they feel. Am I being unreasonable?
Honestly, I think it's wise to listen to everyone and learn from everyone.
Again, I think we basically agree. I just would like to see that done on an even larger scale (were it possible, of course).
Well, to be fair, there are other things besides lame vampires not to like, such as the terrible message it sends to young women in regard to relationships and their role in them, among other things.
But that has nothing to do with "what women did" to the vampire genre, right? And we're getting a bit sidetracked, no? Though I agree with everyone in this thread who says there are things to talk about and I have the utmost respect for everyone who's sharing their stories and feelings. So thanks for posting :)
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My reasons for wanting more women in the industry are selfish... More talent = more people playing = more product = my hobby being sustained.
Also it makes my hobby more accepted and mainstream and should my daughters be interested RPGs they have unlike my young self a larger community to support them and less horribleness to deal with.
Gender is not an indication of quality. It may have an effect on theme and what is explored within the work but does not make it any less compelling or interesting.
The success of The Hunger Games, and Harry Potter, just to name some recent books more than puts a nail in the coffin of the women can't write scifi/fantasy b!*~*%~@, that should have been buried by the talents of Julian May, Ursula LeGuin, and Anne McCaffrey (who's book have pride of place on my book shelf).
The woman who introduced 12 yearold me to these authors a good friend of my mother cautioned me and said you may not like these books as they are written by women....
I said why...they are writing about Dragons Aliens and Wizards what's not to like. She smiled and kept lending me her books. It didn't matter to me what gender the hero was, or who wrote the book... I was there for the magic of being taken to another world.
So to the women that enter Superstar the more of you that enter the more magic I get to experience and the bigger and more accepted my hobby becomes.
Please keep entering and my thanks to you for making my hobby bigger and better.
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Women didn't "do anything" to the vampire genre, any more than women like Britney Spears "did something" to the pop music genre. :/
"I hate Twilight" is the edition war of vampire fandom. There's no point to it except t bash others and make yourself feel superior.
This happens every time I try humor online, guess I sell it better in person. I added a joke to the thread to try and break up what was quickly turning into a discussion that is important but misplaced here.
As to Twilight, I don't bash it to feel superior I bash it for the same reason I'd bash a series of books I actually love the Sword of Truth Series. I don't like Propaganda cloaked in my genre reading, its insulting to the audience.
Twilight = Social conservative family value propaganda (abstinence, the prolife even if it'll kill the mother.)
Sword of Truth Series = actually kind of scary American Nationalistic Propaganda, don't believe me reread what happens when a true democracy is given a choice (spoiler they choose evil), take another look at the BBE (communism), I could go on but that discussion also doesn't belong here.
I agree with Mark.Unlike male gamers, we know that we truly face ridicule. I am actually pretty shy and reclusive, mostly because I don't like much of the world.
I am sorry but I disagree here - I had to deal with violence on a daily basis. There wasn't a day where I wasn't punched or tripped or had my school-bag thrown on the roof, pushed into a garbage bin or into the trough, because I was a gamer and a geek.
I didn't fit in I was bad at Rugby, I couldn't surf or play cricket.
When the 60 minutes episode on D&D thing happened, my life got more difficult.
The worst teasing the hardest stuff to deal with was that done by female students.
It was repeatedly pointed out to me that I was less than male and I would never be attractive to anybody....
I proved them wrong and have a wonderful wife and daughters... It took me a very long time to trust people .
I hear that. I got into A LOT of fights, with my dad (who played DnD) being the only familiar supporter of my habit, teaching me how to box to fight back. Vented a lot of anger out up till high school. And pretty much no one in my family understood the appeal of gaming. Add to the fact that until college, I was the only Puerto Rican in a 100 mile radius of any game store. Got a lot of stares and people surprised that I could read English and do the math in DnD, HERO, and other games... and I had a temper. I beat up people that pushed me around, people that pushed the other gamers around, and gamers that pushed me around. Before I moved onto college, the gamers in SC either loved me or feared me, but by God, they respected me.
Of course, I've calmed down quite a bit since my teenage years. I don't get into fist fights. I used to be vocal on Table top gaming forums and gaming forums like League of Legends and RPG.net about the lack of portrayal of other races, usually met with remarks like "Go back to Mexico." which really just caused me to quit trying. It's why I like Paizo. I feel like they do a much better job than other companies in representing everyone. Most video game forums are toxic and I find this place (usually) a good reprieve from that.
This isn't to get into some kind of a pissing contest on "How Bad We've Had It !" More just what was said so far struck a chord with me.
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Good lord, am I still on the internet? This has been the most respectful public discussion of women in gaming that I've read in years. I'm sorry not to contribute much of value, but this is really making me want to spend more time on the paizo forums.
Good lord, am I still on the internet? This has been the most respectful public discussion of women in gaming that I've read in years. I'm sorry not to contribute much of value, but this is really making me want to spend more time on the paizo forums.
You just hit on one of the reasons it's so bad: the internet. While it does not excuse or condone the sort of trash-talking and outright hateful language that gets thrown around when people bring up sexism in gaming, it makes it easier. Penny Arcade was right on the money with G.I.F.T. (Warning: naughty written words.) A lot of these men wouldn't be saying a damn thing without the anonymity of the internet.
That's not to say that sexism doesn't occur otherwise, but it certainly isn't as...volatile in person, usually.
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9
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Every gaming group I have has women in them, they keep me honest as far as inclusiveness is concerned, in terms of plots NPCs and behaviour. The women at my table teach me to be a better GM and I think more women in the industry would broaden the ideas of good design.
This happens every time I try humor online, guess I sell it better in person. I added a joke to the thread to try and break up what was quickly turning into a discussion that is important but misplaced here.Women didn't "do anything" to the vampire genre, any more than women like Britney Spears "did something" to the pop music genre. :/
"I hate Twilight" is the edition war of vampire fandom. There's no point to it except t bash others and make yourself feel superior.
This thread began as a discussion of the fact that few women entered the contest--but more have than in the past--and none won. That it eventually evolved into a discussion of the particular challenges women face in the game industry does not seem "misplaced" to me. Why does it to you?
Especially since the conversation DID go off topic for awhile--something you and I BOTH contributed to, talking about people who received a lot of votes but didn't win--I was actually glad that it was going back to a subject close to the original. You came off as wanting to veer it back off topic, rather than the other way around.
Now, an attempt to inject humor is all well and good (and I definitely can relate to the feeling of trying to make a joke on these boards and someone taking it all too seriously), but did you really think a joke that specifically targeted women in speculative fiction was a good idea in a thread like this? Further, I don't think the conversation that was going on here is one that should be silenced or diverted from.
ETA: Also, I am pre-caffeine so I probably sound more preachy than I mean to. I seem to be having trouble with tone these last few days. Take commentary with appropriate dash of salt.
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Getting back to the contest, I wonder if changing up the Round 1 category could change the demographics. It seems to me (and these are of course broad generalizations, to which there are many exceptions, and on which we shouldn't base any assumptions about individuals) that males tend to be more interested in the technical/rules-oriented side of RPGs (such as designing new items), while females are more interested in the social/character-oriented side. It might be a worthwhile experiment if next year, rather than designing a Wondrous Item in the first round, we had to do a 300-word write-up of an NPC. Do you think that would shift the demographics of the contestants?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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It is never okay that people are beat up, mocked, harassed, emotional and physically abused or pushed to suicide or homicide because of their hobbies. A hobby that hurts no one and encourages team thinking and problem solving. I am sorry that you suffered as a teen-ager, I did too. I had no girlfriends, every last individual I counted as a friend was a guy, because I have always been the 5%.
Wanted to comment on this. I found it ironic, since most all my friends growing up were gamers, or women, or sometimes both.
Then again, before I even started school, I hung aorund with my sister and my parents' friends' children, all of which were female. *shrug* Always been more comfortable around women.
Of course we also benefitted from the fact that we had quite a few violent people who were in our gaming group. Hard to mock the gamers when you know they include the school wrestling champ, a black belt in a couple martial arts, a borderline sociopath and a big scary ogre with anger issues. Mock us at your own risk.
@ DeathQuaker: point taken [me] Chugs Kool-Aid [/me]
While I have gamed in large larps with female gamers, player tabletop rpgs with female gamers, and GMed for female gamers I have never seen a female GM and I've been gaming since 1989.
I have seen female players design character classes, write extensive well written character background, design new races, design new classes, and new religions but never items.
I'm going to generalize based on personal experience. By no means am I trying to offend anyone, this has just been my experience with female gamers, end disclaimer. In general every female gamer I have player with is more story focused and RP heavy then the average male. The most devious political gamer I've ever run across was a female gamer and I've never run across a female munchkin player.
Based on this data I look at RPG superStar and see:
1) Generally game designers tend to be GMs
2) Working out Item Mechanics might not be as appealing as a more RP focused open call (I suspect if the opening round was design a villian you'd see a larger group of female gamers entering the ring and based on what I've seen the ladies would dominate the top 32.)
I also suspect there is a light gender bias as all the judges are men and perhaps the Y-Chromisome carries some difference in preferance then the double XX.
I was going to write a rant here but surprise its a link, this author did a better job than I can.
Worth a read and written by a femanist
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Star Voter Season 6
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Well, to be fair, there are other things besides lame vampires not to like, such as the terrible message it sends to young women in regard to relationships and their role in them, among other things.
"I hate Twilight" is the edition war of vampire fandom. There's no point to it except t bash others and make yourself feel superior.
Amusingly, there's a similar backlash in the BDSM community I've seen to the unholy offspring of Twilight, 50 Shades of Grey.
I've not read them, but I have seen people saying they glorify an abusive relationship, not a D/s relationship. Now part of this might be the 'edition wars' of kink, since I've seen an uptick of (mostly women, because I don't check male profiles) "Ohmygod50shadesofgreywassoawesomeIwanttofindoutmoreaboutit" profiles.
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Good lord, am I still on the internet? This has been the most respectful public discussion of women in gaming that I've read in years. I'm sorry not to contribute much of value, but this is really making me want to spend more time on the paizo forums.
This. In spades. I am boggled in the best way possible, even if it is a little derailing from the original thread topic. So much respect in so many directions.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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@Gm Spiral
Ok, I'm amused by that rant. "While some argue that the book is pro-choice, as Bella chooses to carry out her pregnancy, the way Bella’s pregnancy is depicted and discussed–along with the strong pro-abstinence messages of the saga, the religious underpinnings and the motherhood-is-the-natural-and-happy-ending-for-all-females tone–result in a narrative that leans far more towards the anti-abortion stance."
I've not read the book, but the "It's pro-choice, but because she chooses to keep the baby and there's <gasp> religion involved, it's an anti-abortion screed." Ruins any credibility for me.
It's like a feminist getting mad at a woman who chooses to be June Cleaver. Or for that matter, a andronist getting mad that a man chooses to be Mr. Mom. Is the author saying that if you don't have lots of sex, abort the kid, and want to be a mom, you're not a feminist? Really? From the section she quotes, it's two people (albiet kids) discussing the baby and 'choosing' to keep it. Shocking!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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Re: Women in RPGSS in general.
On the origianl topic, I am sad if there are a number of women who play, saw the contest and decided not to enter because they felt intimidated because their 'plumbing is on the inside' (to paraphrase Samantha Carter.) I encouraged all of my PFS fellows I game with to enter. I don't care if the top X are men, women or highly skilled chihuahuas. I do care if I can get a high number of Buckeyes in there. :-)
It doesn't matter if the product comes from Lisa, James, Jessica, Mark, DQ, Neil, or Michelle Obama to me. What matters is if the product is good. Please, everyone, male or female (or chihuahua) keep posting ideas and work. Heck, I've put PDFs out there, and I'm just some schmuck who got lucky twice. :-)
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Getting back to the contest, I wonder if changing up the Round 1 category could change the demographics. It seems to me (and these are of course broad generalizations, to which there are many exceptions, and on which we shouldn't base any assumptions about individuals) that males tend to be more interested in the technical/rules-oriented side of RPGs (such as designing new items), while females are more interested in the social/character-oriented side. It might be a worthwhile experiment if next year, rather than designing a Wondrous Item in the first round, we had to do a 300-word write-up of an NPC. Do you think that would shift the demographics of the contestants?
I think that it's a possibility enough that it would be worth trying, personally. Not necessarily the NPC thing particularly (you need to have something mechanical), but trying a different opening round that aims at a slightly different aspect of game design. (I am biased though, honestly, because I don't like designing items, personally.)
I know they really love their wondrous item round because it's brief and yet allows both creativity and mechanics knowledge be shown off. I think it can't be the only way to do that though.
It might also give folks a break from designing items for a year. It's been like what, 5 years now?
Just IMO. Paizo has their own vision for how they want things to go so we'll see.
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I'm female. I GM. I virtually never make up new items or classes, and when I do, it's to shore up a weakness in the party ("No one wants to play a cleric? Don't worry about it; I'll take care of it.") or because one of my players has come to me with an idea of how they want their character to develop ("You want to be an unarmored paladin with sacred tattoos? I can make a prestige class for that."). Iow, I can see an itch and figure out a way to scratch it that is hopefully not unbalancing, but I don't tend to just dream up new statblocks and monsters for fun. I do make my own NPCs, encounters, campaigns, settings, and maps; that's the creative part of adventure design to me, not the numbers and mechanics.
I have no idea whether I can be considered "normative" for female GMs or not. Like DeathQuaker, I'd rather that the bar for entry not be another wondrous item, but if Paizo's looking for people who can design items and statblocks, it makes sense that they ask for items and statblocks.
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I virtually never make up new items or classes, and when I do, it's to shore up a weakness in the party ("No one wants to play a cleric? Don't worry about it; I'll take care of it.") or because one of my players has come to me with an idea of how they want their character to develop ("You want to be an unarmored paladin with sacred tattoos? I can make a prestige class for that."). Iow, I can see an itch and figure out a way to scratch it that is hopefully not unbalancing, but I don't tend to just dream up new statblocks and monsters for fun. I do make my own NPCs, encounters, campaigns, settings, and maps; that's the creative part of adventure design to me, not the numbers and mechanics.
I have no idea whether I can be considered "normative" for female GMs or not. Like DeathQuaker, I'd rather that the bar for entry not be another wondrous item, but if Paizo's looking for people who can design items and statblocks, it makes sense that they ask for items and statblocks.
Joana, that is a very interesting post. I have always been the DM (or GM as is the vogue these days). And like you my favorite part is creating new elements to permit the players to do the things they want to do. I like to work cooperatively like that. I agree that there is not much about this contest that values that approach, and in fact modern design from 3E on has really in large part been against the "DM fiat" style that you are talking about and that I really like. I am a rule 0 kind of guy--the rules are here to help us, if you don't need them then change them or ignore them or use them as you see fit. That is real old school gaming there. The problem is, as a publisher for 3E/pathfinder you simply cannot embrace those ideas in published works since the system is so rules intensive.
So the question I am taking away from your post (whether you intended it or not :) ) is whether that skill, that flexible creativity which is so vital to being a good DM in my view, needs to find a way to be incorporate into RPG Superstar because I am not sure that it is in proportion to its value. Maybe that's why I was so fond of some of the first year's tasks, such as Christine's great Chase on Charred Ground. I thought she really took DM fiat and created a mini-system, much like the ones you describe, to create a great encounter.
Your post has really got me thinking. Thanks.
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In terms of game mechanics fluency:
Speaking as a freelancer - PF is a beast, even with time to spare and the goal of not looking up that dang rule again. I finally took the plunge as a freelancer, having realized I'm probably going to be learning rules as long as it's in print.
If what you're writing is common among female PF gamers (and it basically paraphrases what my female gamer associates do say or convey in the game), then they're setting too high a bar. When I'm watching my daughter playing with her friends, there's a bit of that that seems culturally ingrained - the girls are too careful, too concerned about whether they can do it. Now, this means the boys get hurt more often. I think this is how people often parent differently to daughters or sons and it sticks fast. They teach their daughters carefulness and tentativeness and their sons recklessness and toughness. My daughter falls into the latter category, even though she's a girl. Maybe because of me, maybe not. She gets told "you can't do that, you're a girl" a fair bit, which she ignores, and I hope she continues to ignore. But there is an overwhelming emphasis in our culture (perhaps every culture) in the women being more reticent and thoughtful. To wait.
Not entering a contest protects against failure, but it also doesn't teach anything; what you've learned is that being inactive means no loss. The fact that geek culture cheerfully humiliates people who don't succeed must make things harder. Even though Paizo's boards are pretty welcoming, the overall game culture (and I include video games in this) can make a non-white/male/straight/rich gamer assume it's no different. But misogyny and other forms of jerk behavior gets called out pretty quick hereabouts.
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I'll chime in and say a lot of my GM creativity comes from responding to what my players want to do as well. I'm trying to get back in the habit of quizzing my players about their characters in order to get a sense of what kind of story they want to be able to tell with them. "What's your character's favorite downtime activity? What did you like to do as a child? Any family?" Etc.
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And *that's* my personal barrier to entry: I don't feel as though my knowledge of the mechanics of the game is strong enough to support an entry of which I can be proud.
I've certainly been there -- even when I have hard evidence in front of me that I'm more prepared/qualified/whatever than others, I tend to feel that I'm less so. :-)
There's an interesting essay here about the impact of gender in some other male-dominated spaces (law and business negotiations), based in part on a book called Women Don't Ask, which I suggest every woman read. Here's a key quote:
Males tend to convey more confidence than women in performance-oriented settings. Even when minimally prepared, men believe they can “wing it” and get through successfully. On the other hand, no matter how thoroughly prepared women are, they tend to feel unprepared. I have frequently observed this difference among my Legal Negotiation students. Successful males think they can obtain beneficial results in future settings, while successful females continue to express doubts about their own capabilities. I find this frustrating, because the accomplished women are as proficient as their accomplished male cohorts.
Male and female self-confidence is influenced by the stereotypical ways in which others evaluate their performances. When men are successful, their performance tends to be ascribed to intrinsic factors such as diligent work and intelligence; when women are successful, their performance is often to be attributed to extrinsic factors such as luck or the aid of others. This factor causes male success to be overvalued, and female success to be undervalued.
There's a ton to unpack there, and a ton to be discussed in terms of how we as a culture go about changing this, but the long and short of it for purposes of this particular discussion is:
Ladies, most of the guys who are entering don't have more experience, rules knowledge, GM-fu, skill with mechanics, or whatever than you do. The difference is that even if they're not certain of their knowledge or skill in an area, they'll give it a try anyway.
There's plenty to gain and little to lose here. So even if you're not completely sure you have what it takes, go for it.
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@ Jeff what you are saying borders on Evolutionary Psychology which has always made sense to me.
Heres a nice overview Linkified
Short version that's rellivant:
Men as hunters have a tendency to try spread my seed reproductive tactic and tend to be risk takers as this was an attractive quality to women (guy who takes risks brings home more meat.) Biologically the Y-Chromosome is indeed more subject to mutation thus men have the market cornered on geniuses and genetic development disorders.
Women had a less risky strategy in part because of the early life cycle of humans, since women care for infants in a hunter gatherer society rewarding behavior is group behavior. Monogamy is a good eveolutionary strategy for women as it ties an additional resource gatherer for the female's young. Biologically women are allot more stable than men, in fact when men have hormone issues it is quite possible to be genetically a man but go thru life with female sexual organs "woman" is a genetic default for human.
What does that mean to this contest?
Submitting an entry is risk of rejection which in the huunter-gatherer lizard part of the brain is good for men bad for women.
Women are generally better at multi tasking while men are generally better at focusing total attention to one thing. This again goes back to the hunter-gatherer lizard brain, women needed to multi task because they generally are looking out for their young, while men generally needed to be able to remain calm and focused on one task because these traits are favorable to hunting. This means that the more technical the writing is the more focus it demands the less appealing it is for the female demographic.
Huzzah a use for 30+ credits in psychology whoot!
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While this isn't necessarily gender-related, it is worth noting that we're not running GM Superstar. The skills needed to make a great GM are not necessarily the same as those needed to be a good game designer, writer, or professional freelancer. I think there's certainly a lot of overlap, but as a developer, I would take a good freelancer who's a mediocre GM over someone who's a great GM but not a professional or inspired freelancer.
Personally, I think the "women don't like mechanics" argument (especially when coming from men) doesn't hold a lot of water, because that preference isn't gender-based at all; there are tons of men who don't like mechanics either. These folks, whether male or female, are just likely not the right sort of people to participate in this contest, and may not be the best fit for a career in freelance game design (since mechanics are a large part of what that job entails). I'd rather not see the discussion turn into "women like this and men like this" but rather what we can do to reach out to the women who do like mechanics and who would be well-served by entering the contest to get that 5% participation rate up to one closer to the 40% or 50% of the gaming population that women actually represent.
As far as the contest itself goes, we're always looking for ways to improve it. Since I'm the person at Paizo who typically works with the contest's champion and runners-up to get them acclimated to life as a freelancer; who trains them in our processes and best practices; who reports to the rest of the company with who among the annual contestants may be a good fit for other products or for graduation from Pathfinder Society Scenarios to Pathfinder Modules, Adventure Paths, or other assignments, I'm especially interested in seeing the very best pool of contestants enter and advance each year. So we're listening to the discussion here and will keep it in mind when planning future Superstar contests in years to come.
Disclaimer: Evolutionary Psychology is inexact, its a way of analyzing human behavior and while highly observational is difficult to study and prove. Its a school of thought, some of what I posted above is fact (the genetic elements, different risk taking strategies between the sexes) and some is applied theory. There are always exceptions to the rule.
Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7
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I'm a bit slow, but I'm finally 'not busy' enough to make comments.
As to Twilight, I don't bash it to feel superior I bash it for the same reason I'd bash a series of books I actually love the Sword of Truth Series. I don't like Propaganda cloaked in my genre reading, its insulting to the audience.
To be honest, most Sci-Fi (in particular) and Fantasy fiction have some form of propoganda or another - in fact, most literature does, because it comes from a single person, with their own point of view and perceptions.
Ender's Game: You have the subject of Birth Limitation brought up, Ender being a 3rd child, after all. The politics of bureaucracy and the fear of bureaucrats and what will happen when a war hero returns home, this sentencing Ender to Exile. The perils of an anti-religion society, balanced against religious extremism. (India and the Caliphate are the ones that were the aggressors in the name of Deities)
Pern: Pro-same sex relations and tolerance. With slight anti-organized religion undertones.
The list goes on.
If someone has an opinion, then it will get worked into their literature. And you're not going to get away from it. The thing about Propaganda, is it only annoys you, if you disagree with it.
NOW! moving back to the topic at hand -
I think women don't realize their creativity, or the enjoyment of dabbling into game design, simply because of 'tradition'. Why, I wouldn't have ever entered this contest, if I hadn't gotten my feet wet in an 'Iron GM' regional semi-file and realized JUST HOW MUCH FUN ... I had GMing and making up items on the fly.
And this... RPGSS is a GREAT forum for me to get things objectively reviewed and critiqued so I can GET BETTER!
And to be honest, I think the Archetype I wrote up was much better than my Wondrous Item. Which means, I'm getting better with each step.
Any way for us non-Top 32-ers to get archetypes reviewed? Or would that just bombard the boards too much?
Thanks for listening to my rant!
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I'm female. I GM. I virtually never make up new items or classes, and when I do, it's to shore up a weakness in the party ("No one wants to play a cleric? Don't worry about it; I'll take care of it.") or because one of my players has come to me with an idea of how they want their character to develop ("You want to be an unarmored paladin with sacred tattoos? I can make a prestige class for that."). Iow, I can see an itch and figure out a way to scratch it that is hopefully not unbalancing, but I don't tend to just dream up new statblocks and monsters for fun.
I think this might be a good away to show the differences between typical/stereotypical male hobbyists, and female hobbyists.
A lot of good GMs go through, utilizing Rule 0, and tweak things to keep the game entertaining and running smoothly. But look at the way they do it. I am going to propose that women will look to a more artistic approach, while men will weave their answers with a more mechanical flair.
Neither is wrong in their approach, it is just different. And I think the men just beat us girls out on shining. I'm sure in the past that something more artistic, rather than mechanically correct, shined over those that were mechanically perfect. ;)
We just need to step up hit a few home runs next year!
So... we have a year now to work on our skills. We should set up a group where weekly, or bi-weekly, we women come up with some parameters/guidelines to test our skills. Then critique one another.
Hmmm, I REALLY like this idea. Would requesting a sub-board for such a thing be out of line?
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Hmmm, I REALLY like this idea. Would requesting a sub-board for such a thing be out of line?
It sounds like something great for a Facebook or Google+ group. :)
Personally, I think the "women don't like mechanics" argument (especially when coming from men) doesn't hold a lot of water, because that preference isn't gender-based at all; there are tons of men who don't like mechanics either.
I'd have to agree with this. I'm a woman, I've been running games since 1999 in a half dozen different systems. I love the mechanics of things, I love creating things. I've over two dozen pathfinder classes I've converted, tweaked, rewritten or just come up with from scratch for my games, Some of the base classes, some alternates, some prestige. I haven't started an archetype database yet because I haven't had to, but I'm sure I'll get there. I've tons of new races from 3.5 and forward (some I still need to finish converting), and more magic items and weapons than I can shake a fist at. I even created my own d20 character sheet that could be quickly/easily modified for use in any d20 system from D&D, Pathfinder, d20 Modern, Star Wars... you name it. And then I went and played with it in adobe and made it form-fill (I'm a glutton for punishment). And then on top of that I've two games I'm currently working on making homebrew rules for--from the ground up. It's nothing I could ever publish since it'd be stealing IP, but these are games I have been asked to do by my group and I will be starting from the ground up with some modified PF d20 rules and so on.
So... females that LOVE mechanics, design, and not just the RP/story factor... we're definitely out there.
@ Mark M. and MKD: This is not intended rudely, but aren't female posters here going to fall into the contest participant 5%? There are exceptions to every rule of course but what do exceptions prove? The statement that there are tons of men that don't like mechanics proves about as much as the true statement that there are tons of people clarmoring for an AirWolf reboot (I know one they even have forums.)
As I see it the fact that 95% of the participants in the contest were men either speaks to gaming being male dominated (it is but not 95% in my experience its closer to 70%) or it speaks to additional gender biased barriers for entry. I'd love to see all 6yrs worh of data to look at but the superficial details that stand out are that the 1st round is highly mechanical and involves an element I suspect appeals more to men. I'm making those assumptions based on both experience and honestly allot of community college psych courses (though NY community colleges are fairly good.)
@chibiamy: Great point. All written materiel comes with the author's opinions on the world at large. I suppose I dislike Twilight because I think its a sneaky way to indoctrinate young girls in a Mormon family values way of thinking which is counter to my atheistic/scientific/social liberal point of view.
@ The Idea of working together to sharpen skills in a facebook group- these forums already have a practice thread every year the Blazing 9. You'd get feedback from men too which judging by the participation rate may be helpful as participants vote.
Huh, strange... Seems to be real.
And *that's* my personal barrier to entry: I don't feel as though my knowledge of the mechanics of the game is strong enough to support an entry of which I can be proud.I've certainly been there -- even when I have hard evidence in front of me that I'm more prepared/qualified/whatever than others, I tend to feel that I'm less so. :-)
There's an interesting essay here about the impact of gender in some other male-dominated spaces (law and business negotiations), based in part on a book called Women Don't Ask, which I suggest
I wonder if this is cultural rather than gender bassed.
All Australians are expected to be able to "wing it" it's a leftover from our colonial heritage... If you don't have what you need you make your own. It's something we are all very proud of.
On the other hand Australians don't ask questions - if we receive poor service we don't raise a fuss it's rude we just don't go back and we tell all of our friends and family not to go there.
I love working with older Australian women of Chinese descent because they ask questions and call people out when the project we are being handed is BS. On the other hand women Indian descent will ask me to ask questions and men of Indian descent are the same as Australian men women of North West Euro descent, they accept the project and hope that they can work it out and not have to ask questions in case makes them look incapable of doing the job. I have had to train myself to ask questions it makes my job easier and it shows you are engaged with the process.
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I'm female. I GM. I virtually never make up new items or classes, and when I do, it's to shore up a weakness in the party ("No one wants to play a cleric? Don't worry about it; I'll take care of it.") or because one of my players has come to me with an idea of how they want their character to develop ("You want to be an unarmored paladin with sacred tattoos? I can make a prestige class for that."). Iow, I can see an itch and figure out a way to scratch it that is hopefully not unbalancing, but I don't tend to just dream up new statblocks and monsters for fun. I do make my own NPCs, encounters, campaigns, settings, and maps; that's the creative part of adventure design to me, not the numbers and mechanics.
It is interesting that you say that. The item I did submit was one that very much designed around the idea of "neat item to help players that isn't broken." It was not a Superstar item; I know this. It was the best item I had written at the time, and I wanted to give a go at the contest, see what it was like, see what was to be learned, etc.
But I do on my own time definitely take the approach of design from... well, maybe a cooperative standpoint. What doesn't make me shine, but what is best for everybody? It's very hard to flip that viewpoint around to make something that shows ME off, is just about me, not about players or gamers who would use the item, which recent posts about judges have said that that's what they look for in a Superstar (which makes sense).
((Mind, I can totally show off in other ways and eat it up, but this is not a karaoke competition, unfortunately.))
Generalizations about psychology (and sociology) do suggest that this would be more likely a "female" way of thinking than male, though as the nature of these things are, there will be many exceptions to this.
But it is something to chew on. I am not suggesting Superstar change its nature to suit other perspectives of design or gamer interests. But maybe I am suggesting there are other ways to encourage women--make that more gamers in general--take a more active participatory approach to the hobby. Hmmm. Have to think about this.
This thread got me thinking about some of the different player styles within the community. I had not thought of the mechanics behind item creation specifically since I enjoy tinkering so much. There have been some very good points made here that will keep me thinking about this for a time.
When designing a new adventure, how important are the new items? For me, not much. Is round 1, by just the mechanics, reducing the talent pool significantly?
One suggestion for next year: instead of a wondrous item, round 1 is design a building for a city. Paizo provides a map of the city with building locations, with maybe maps of empty buildings by letter designation. The write up lists location on map by number "xx" with building type by letter "aa". Limit still 300 words. Write up includes everything a GM needs if the party decides to stop off at that location. The twist (if any) could be: no inns, city is a barbarian frontier town or desert trading post, etc.
Most interesting thread I've read/participated in.
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Just to be contrary,
As Mark pointed out, having a handle on mechanics is an important part of design. And if people - no gender assigned - are turned off by it, then, as he indicated, perhaps those people aren't cut out for this type of position. This thread seems to be splitting into two concerns - drawing in more (women) gamers in general, and getting more women to submit to the contest.
Speaking to the latter, I think, maybe, it's important to be aware of as many reasons as possible for why women aren't submitting, and to sift through which are because they as individuals (certainly NOT as a gender) aren't suited to design and which are things that can be addressed in how the contest is run *without* compromising the identification of those qualities that are important in a freelancer.
I don't think you're being contrary, daeja. I think most of us agree Superstar should be focused on mechanics. And yes, there are two concerns, the contest in particular, and drawing in women to become game designers in general.
I think it gets conflated because this contest is touted as THE way to break into the game industry.
As for being aware of the many reasons, I absolutely agree.
having a handle on mechanics is an important part of design.
The point I am trying to get across is that item mechanics are to me only a very small part adventure design. When telling a story, the magic items are the supporting props, not the main event. Likewise, houses and cities are usually supporting props for telling the story. Without any houses, cities, fields, trees, rivers, etc., most stories will be very boring. Without magic items, the Harry Potter books would be much less interesting. It takes all of these put together to make a great story.
I do not look at wondrous items when I consider buying an adventure. I look at the plot, the setting, the flavor, etc. The magic items are icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
Is there another way of finding great cooks instead of just looking at the frosting and guessing if the cake will taste great?
I believe what Kenton Abel is saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that people who can write great modules using the building blocks of whatever's already in the rulebooks and bestiaries don't have to be great at creating brand new building blocks. I agree with this.
However, Paizo isn't looking solely for great module writers, even though that's the "prize" up for grabs. They're looking for freelancers, people they can call up and ask to write setting material, statblocks, items, monsters, archetypes, NPCs for a codex, what-have-you.
I think the fact that the "prize" is to write an adventure obscures the fact that the real goal on Paizo's part is an ongoing professional relationship which encompasses many more tasks than just coming up with a great storyline and encounters.