Feminine Wiles


RPG Superstar™ General Discussion

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Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8 , Star Voter Season 6

@DQ

I was talking to one of my friends who does the MMORPG thing. She said she choses male avatars because the female ones get harrassed too much.

Back in the early days of (unmoderated) White Wolf chat, I created a female avatar to sit in the rooms and draw fire from the HNGs so the women I talked to could actually relax a little.

Project Manager

Matt Blackie wrote:
Mark Moreland wrote:
We just need to reach out and encourage women to enter and make paizo.com a community in which women aren't afraid of taking a risk and putting themselves out there (as Jessica mentioned in one of her early posts).

Here and a few times before, there has been talk about community-building. That is an admirable goal, but what specifically do you think can or should be done to facilitate that? What is it exactly that people think we (as a community here on paizo.com) should do, or what do they think we are currently doing that we should not do?

I confess that I sometimes feel a little like Josef K., indicted for nonspecific crimes by an ambiguous authority, where my guilt is presumed and I am given no option of remediation or appeal.

So, I am encouraging you all to express what it is that you feel is holding you back here. Tell us what your grievances are with this community, so that it can work to address those proactively.

I fail to see where you've been accused of anything, Matt.

The discussion, as I've read it, was pointing out that gaming is generally a hostile environment for women, and that can cause women to have hesitations about putting themselves forward even here where it's relatively safe.

The question isn't about grievances with the Paizo community; the question is what the company and the community can do to encourage more women to participate in RPGSS. Most of that, likely, has nothing to do with shortcomings with this community in particular -- it has to do with finding ways to publicize that this community is different, and safer, and more welcoming. (And, obviously, continuing to do everything we can do to ensure that it continues to improve, because there is always room for improvement.)

I have a bunch of thoughts about that, but again, I'd rather have that discussion after RPGSS 2013 is over; let's do the contest and celebrate the winners, and then talk about ways to make it even better next year.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka DeathQuaker

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Doug Bailey wrote:
What this data implies is only 5% of passionate gamers are female.

No, what it implies that possibly 5% of passionate gamers interested in game design, of a competitive spirit, who feel comfortable with wondrous item design, who feel confident enough to enter a major contest, who feel that they have the time and interest to eventually become a freelance game designer, who are members of the Paizo community, who managed to get an item written and submitted by December 18, are female.

Quote:
I'm not sure that is extremely accurate but its probably not far off that women are a small minority amongst gamers.

I don't know what the table top game stats are, but I know that according to the Electronic Software Association, 48% of video gamers are women. I would reckon the percentage of female table top role playing gamers is smaller, but I would wager at least 30%.

If you combine video gamers, RPGers, LARPers, and board gamers, we are definitely around 50/50, I'm certain.

In any of these cases, how many of these women are a) vocal b) involved or interested in being involved in design is another, different question. (And that moreover, no gamer, regardless of gender, should feel pressured into participating in game design because otherwise they might not be seen as "passionate." Different people express their passions in different ways.)

Matthew Morris wrote:


I was talking to one of my friends who does the MMORPG thing. She said she choses male avatars because the female ones get harrassed too much.

I've heard this often.

Quote:


Back in the early days of (unmoderated) White Wolf chat, I created a female avatar to sit in the rooms and draw fire from the HNGs so the women I talked to could actually relax a little.

Holy crap, I remember those chatrooms. Oddly, while I do remember a couple creeps, I don't remember being given a hard time generally, and I think all my characters I brought there were female. And I was VERY naive about the Internet at that time, I was walking around with a Cultist of Ecstasy who was probably advertising "abuse me" on her face without my realizing it, but amazingly and miraculously I didn't get into much trouble.

Star Voter Season 6

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I don't have google+ but if you start a group on Facebook, please PM me the info. :)

Thanks to all - male and female - who have been willing to share their experiences and opinions in this thread. It's an interesting discussion, and I'm grateful for a supportive community like these Paizo boards in which it remains an intellectual and considerate conversation.

Star Voter Season 6

Matthew Morris wrote:

@DQ

I was talking to one of my friends who does the MMORPG thing. She said she choses male avatars because the female ones get harrassed too much.

My wife does that because of that reason and also a male complaining about something in game is perceived very differently than a female complaining about something in game.

Star Voter Season 6

DeathQuaker wrote:
Doug Bailey wrote:
What this data implies is only 5% of passionate gamers are female.
No, what it implies that possibly 5% of passionate gamers interested in game design, of a competitive spirit, who feel comfortable with wondrous item design, who feel confident enough to enter a major contest, who feel that they have the time and interest to eventually become a freelance game designer, who are members of the Paizo community, who managed to get an item written and submitted by December 18, are female.

No? So you think gamers are 50/50 male and female but females are just less inclined to exhibit the attributes you list above? I think that is quite sexist. I think its more likely to imply that females are equally as passionate gamers interested in game design, of a competitive spirit, who feel comfortable with wondrous item design, etc. as males are but the pool of female gamers is 5% the size of male games.


Another factor to be included in discussion about women in gaming and estimated number of submissions by them: the actual system used in the contest.

In my Pathfinder/D&D group there are three male players and three female players. Of the female three one has serious writing ambitions and two others are active participants in writing and fan-fiction. One designed own well developed setting many years ago. They all play Mage The Ascension where designing own spells is major part of the game.

EDIT: Also, two have many years of experience as GMs (or more correctly Storytellers). The last one less but she GMed a bit as far as I know.

Yet, doubt I ever see any of them here submitting to Super Star.
Why? Because they are not interested in design? No, as I mentioned they have some literary ambitions and gaming experience. It's so because d20 is a secondary game to them, not their main preferred system (honestly it is not my main preferred system, either, but I have a bit more game designing ambitions and for that OGL is a wonderful thing). We play Pathfinder because I offered to GM it in the current group switching the timetable with D&D game GM. They learned enough rules to play (one of them regularly whines about the small differences between D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder - don't get me wrong, all the players in that group, me included, whine about those from time to time, she's just the most vocal) but don't show interest into going deeper into the d20 mechanics themselves.

If similar contest would be done by White Wolf involving creating things for old World Of Darkness they would be probably more interested in participating (let's ignore the language barrier for the sake of discussion - I can't judge their English skills - one of them was often claiming that her English was terribly but I think that she underestimated her fluency, I don't know if she got better since the last year).

Note: I don't see the three males submitting - the one that might be the most interested in design is bit more on a 3.5 side than Pathfinder.

There is also a quite large group of fellow female gamers that rarely if ever play anything d20 related (one is dedicated fan of AD&D with seething hatred of d20). Other systems are much more popular. In fact, I don't recall any female gamer I know that would treat d20 as her primary game system but my knowledge of other gamers preferred systems is limited - for example while I think there would be two or three male gamers know to me that would probably declare themselves primarily d20 gamers, it would be guessing again.

I know a few women with actual writing credits in rpg products here in Poland, mostly Monastyr (including the d20 hater mentioned in previous paragraph), Witcher RPG and Wolsung but nothing d20 related as far as I know (it could be if Wolsung was released for d20 Modern like it was initially planned but the project fell apart).

Marathon Voter Season 6

Lady Firedove wrote:

I don't have google+ but if you start a group on Facebook, please PM me the info. :)

I'd like to second this as well. While I have a Google account, it rarely gets poked at--though I suppose it wouldn't hurt being added to either/both if that's acceptable.

Scarab Sages Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7

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Honestly, so does my Google+ account.

I was thinking maybe Blogger + one of the social sites. If it works out, I'll 'encourage' my husband to start up a bboard on one of the home servers he has plenty of.

Gathering names now, on the train to meet my husband and a friend who is in town for dinner. I might just have enough time to send out some PMs!

YAY!

Scarab Sages Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7

I don't suppose there is some way to send a PM to multiple people at the same time that I am missing, is there? I appear to be blind!

Webstore Gninja Minion , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

There isn't, but you can copy/paste your message to a new PM.

RPG Superstar 2014 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7 aka Belladonna Blue

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Wow -- just returned home from a trip (where I was mercifully delivered from several more days of obsessive voting) and got home in time to see Top 32 posted and get bummed that no women made it in, including me. I wasn't surprised, but I was disappointed (it's not like I entered thinking to myself "Golly gee! I can't WAIT to lose!" ;) ) and took a couple days to ruminate.

Glad I came back and read this thread first thing. These posts have utterly distracted me from this Civ 5 game that's been my life for 72 hours.

There's a few things I'd like to say after reading through the discussions, and this is ONLY my perspective -- my experiences may be exceptions, or not, just providing a wider range of responses:

Re: Another Lady Gamer Perspective --:
I've been gaming for about 20 years, and I'm only 27. Video games, RPGs, CCGs, miniatures, etc., have been pivotal roles in my life since I was a kid. I had NO female friends until I was in high school, where I made two -- both also gamers. I moved to Seattle at 23 where the demographic is (or at least was, I'm not there anymore) much better, but I'd gotten pretty accustomed to being the only girl in a game store of 45 men or so. I've gotten pretty used to being at least mildly ostracized by "norms". And I have to say, barring the occasional dumb comment or unwanted social attention coming from people NOT in my regular circles, I never felt particularly discriminated against or treated much differently... until I started spending more time on the internet. The difference between the way men and women are treated in gaming communities is insane. I've had androgynous handles much of the time and had people assume I'm male, only to drastically change attitude and tone (and not for the better) when they find out I'm a chick. So yeah, I think anonymity plays a HUGE role in how women gamers get treated/mistreated.

Re: Women and Game Mechanics --:
I've GM'd. Lots. I've beta tested two different homebrew systems by friends, one published. I've done modding on PC games, I've been a contender in two different CCGs, I've won tournaments and contests in different gaming fields. I'm going to school for game design, specifically in programming. I spent quite a bit of time overhauling 3.5 for a homebrew campaign that involved me taking the magic system apart piece by piece and rebuilding. I rebuilt or created classes, races, a religion system, and tweaked the environmental rules (because I love torturing players with environmental rules) and I've built scenarios for Mordheim (anyone remember that?) that our store actually used. I am not at all afraid of the nuts and bolts or the mechanical aspects.

Re: Wondrous Item as Entry Point --:
However, for all that, I have a hard time remembering creating magic items that weren't plot devices or artifacts, and I've always been stingy about passing them out to players. I've tended to lean to Tolkienesque magic item treatment, where they are incredibly rare and unusual. Items are not my strong point and I had a pretty narrow time window to figure something out for the contest. I didn't make Top 32 because my item trended so hard towards simplicity that I'm sure it came out boring and forgettable, which is in keeping with my style. Not gonna win me any contests. :) So should RPGSS change its entry point to something I (and presumably at least some other women gamers) am better at?

I don't think so. Instead, I'd like to get some magic items books and take a good look at them. Find some I like and figure out why. Analyze the winners and figure out where what *I* think makes a good item and what the judges think is a good item coalesce and diverge. Critique some items here and stay involved in the voting process. And I'm gonna run a Pathfinder game and intentionally focus on putting in some cool, non-artifact magic trinkets for my players. It's going to be work that'll take me out of my comfort zone and shore up an aspect of game development where I know I'm lacking. But I plan on coming back in December and getting my name up on the Top 32 list, making the work well worth it. I don't think RPGSS punishes those who aren't any good at making magic items. I think the intention is to reward those who are able to create at least ONE clever magic item if it is needed.

Re: Getting More Women to Enter --:
Keep the first round blind. This is about more than women being worried about being judged unfairly (either in their favor or not) based on gender. An even bigger factor for me was that I was not involved with the boards prior to hearing about the contest, and without an anonymous entry round, figured I stood no chance against popular members. So it's about getting women AND lurkers/newbs involved. :) Additionally, as others have said, more advertising. I couldn't believe this has been running for six years -- I'd never heard of it, and a few years ago I was in enough gaming communities that I think I should have. I found out about this year's contest thanks to a random ad on Obsidian Portal about it that my boyfriend happened to see. I also think the women's group being talked about could be really helpful, too, for women that either have trouble with mechanics or who, like me, have gaps in their design knowledge.

I'm sorry this was so verbose and I again want to reiterate that this is my perspective... I don't disagree with anyone on any particular point, and I'm really happy this thread is 4 pages and not once degenerated into dumb comments or jokes at women's expense. That's rare on the internet. Paizo, I think your community is probably the biggest +1 for seeing more women in game design that you could ask for.

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8

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Death Quaker wrote:
Figuring out why women don't participate more in Superstar? DO A SURVEY. I've said it several times. DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS. DO A SURVEY. Not just of women either, but get a taste for the general demographics of people that participate in stuff like this. And yes, please make sure one of the questions is "if the entry point were something other than a wondrous item, would I enter?" I'm curious to see the results of that, broken down by demographic.

This, over and over. We're pulling stats out of thin air--the 5%/95% number is based off guesstimates and assumptions from other guesstimate threads.

To echo earlier points, RPG Superstar doesn't have much of a profile. I'd never heard of it in game stores, never saw an insert promoting it in any shipped product I ordered, didn't hear about it at Beginner Box Bashes. The only press I ever see on RPGSS are on some of the game blogs I follow, after the Top 32 are announced. I don't see it postered in FLGSs in the winter. There're no official PFS tie-ins to Superstar. The only mention of RPGSS in the Paizo catalogs are in the blurbs for the winning modules.

I only found out about it last year after being an Open Design patron, lurking the boards, seeing someone mention it, and doing some Googling.

If you don't visit paizo.com during Superstar season, I daresay you'd never know it was going on; even then, we always hear from people on the RPGSS boards who only heard about it right before (and after) the deadline.

I know the budget for marketing is small enough, and marketing RPGSS may well be money down the drain, preaching to the choir, etc. etc. But can Paizo help organize a Street Team for it? Can we get the long-requested publications of Top 32 entries--hell, even PDFs on a bare official template--just the sort of cheap/free thing that would show up in a DriveThruRPG or Amazon search?

As most everyone in this thread is eager to point out, "5%" is not an accurate accounting of women and girls playing, GMing, or writing and designing content around Pathfinder. That doesn't matter for RPGSS if the contest never gets in front of people who merely buy, play, GM, or create content for Pathfinder--a fundamentally offline game--rather than people who frequently visit the website.

Sovereign Court Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

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I would absolutely be interested in a group on FB, Google + or a thread here on Paizo that was specifically for the ladies who were interested in sharpening their skills for RPGSS next year. And I will be participating the 9 Blazing Months thread this year, since I know that the reason that I did not win is not that I can't, its that my entry this year sucked because I didn't put enough thought into it. Something that only really became apparent to me AFTER I started voting. :P

I would DEFINITELY attend a Women in Gaming panel...GenCon 2013 perhaps?

And I would like to state, for the record, thank you to everyone who is chiming in on this in such a thoughtful manner, regardless of your particular chromosome combination.

Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9

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You know, it's funny but I have never seen the bad behaviour and attitudes towards female gamers in my personal life. When I started gaming, it was with both of my sisters. The first group we were in had them and my older sister's best friend. Three girls right at the start. As I look over my years of gaming, I see that for the most part I have rarely been in a gaming group that didn't have women.

So imagine my shock when the whole Anita Sarkeesian event took place. I was dumbfounded. I began searching around on internet forums and began to see what was actually happening. I cannot explain to you my level of disgust. It was as if someone had taken the blinders off and revealed the dark underbelly of the gaming community. I talked to my younger sister about all this (who I still game with after 30+ years!) and was startled to discover she was well aware of it, although she is not an active participant in gamer culture.

One of the reasons that I actually post to the Paizo forums is because they go out of their way to be inclusive. I just don't feel comfortable anywhere else as much as I do here. And yet since the veil has been lifted for me, I have seen an occasional statement on these boards that is borderline. Some of the more offensive posts are rarely seen by me, as Paizo is very good at removing those posts quickly.

I have come to the realization of just how lucky I have been and how ignorant to the rudeness of people happening within my view but not my notice.

Make women feel welcome. That is all that will be required to get more women into this contest. They can be just as good at all this as anybody else.

Marathon Voter Season 6

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Feros wrote:

You know, it's funny but I have never seen the bad behaviour and attitudes towards female gamers in my personal life. When I started gaming, it was with both of my sisters. The first group we were in had them and my older sister's best friend. Three girls right at the start. As I look over my years of gaming, I see that for the most part I have rarely been in a gaming group that didn't have women.

So imagine my shock when the whole Anita Sarkeesian event took place. I was dumbfounded. I began searching around on internet forums and began to see what was actually happening. I cannot explain to you my level of disgust. It was as if someone had taken the blinders off and revealed the dark underbelly of the gaming community. I talked to my younger sister about all this (who I still game with after 30+ years!) and was startled to discover she was well aware of it, although she is not an active participant in gamer culture.

One of the reasons that I actually post to the Paizo forums is because they go out of their way to be inclusive. I just don't feel comfortable anywhere else as much as I do here. And yet since the veil has been lifted for me, I have seen an occasional statement on these boards that is borderline. Some of the more offensive posts are rarely seen by me, as Paizo is very good at removing those posts quickly.

I have come to the realization of just how lucky I have been and how ignorant to the rudeness of people happening within my view but not my notice.

Make women feel welcome. That is all that will be required to get more women into this contest. They can be just as good at all this as anybody else.

So... color me more naive than I thought.

This describes me pretty well, save I'm an only child, but I've almost always been in a group with multiple females when gaming. For the last 12 years I've been the primary GM/Storyteller in our group and the only opposition I ever faced in terms of "power struggles" was from the other females. I counted myself lucky--I'd heard whispers but never felt I'd ever been on the receiving end.

To be honest, I don't hit up blogs, lurk on forums, hang out on YouTube, or any fandom sites. I had no clue, literally none, Anita Sarkeesian was until I started reading this thread.

All I can say now (after having done a bit of web searching) is Holy S***! I've always known that the internet could be a place for rampant stupidity and idiotic behavior--my mother signed up to AOL in 1995 and sadly those were my first experiences with gaming (small town high school had no gamers that I ever knew of)--doing text based RP in chat rooms. So... I've encountered stupidity there, but I suppose I was just too young at the time to really connect it to something based on gender.

Now, having read all of this I sat down and actually thought about it. Hindsight is 20/20 and I realize that even my very first game, and one of my favorite gaming moments of all time, was exactly this problem. My first game, my now fiance brought me in to his group and they were in the middle of an old campaign. AD&D looking at like 16-18th level characters. The DM gives me a few rules about equipment (cause that thing was just a BEAST for a first timer) and then when I was done, looked at my creation and scoffed. He decided it was too inferior to meld with the group and sarcastically suggested my fiance help me and that he "tweak" it and add more stuff to it. So I let him. He regretted it a few weeks down the road when I showed him exactly how nasty my "novice" understanding of the mechanics was. At the time, I thought it was him just giving me a hard time because I was new and I probably never would've thought anything of it except for my fiance' later apologizing and explaining that it had been otherwise. But I was 19, young, and blew it off.

Still, the more I think about it... I've had some stares, some comments, and what not over the years since then. But I never really let them get to me. It probably helped that until I saw my fiance' playing SWTOR that I hadn't ever gotten into MMO's either--but even then while I was playing a distinctly female char I didn't actually see it happening. I used to be amused and even a bit confused when people were shocked that "Yes, I really am a female" and was able to keep up with the "boys". Now, I just have to shake my head.

I have to say I'm extremely thankful that so much of my gaming experiences have been what I'd call positive and devoid of this sort of behavior--I've had some low points in my life and had I encountered any of this insanity during those points I may very well have been tempted to ditch what has become my favorite hobby.

I suppose what I really want to say with all of this is a thank you to Paizo and her Community. This really is the only forum I have ever posted on and not only do I feel safe in doing so, but I'm encouraged to do so; that's because they do such a good job moderating and because they've fostered such a great community.

Scarab Sages Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7

As we continue with the discussion, I just wanted to offer my thanks to anyone and everyone who has been posting here.

Now, please continue!


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Replying to a number of the excellent posts here, and one I flat out disagree with. Paizo is not to blame for the fact that relatively few women enter this particular contest, and they are very unlikely to be able to fix or change the situation. I'm not sure they should try, beyond being impartial, inclusive, and not tolerating sexual harassment or depicting it as okay. As far as I can tell, they already do this.

It wouldn't be a terrible thing for Paizo to do more conscious outreach to female gamers, but in my opinion the absolute best thing they could do is to make it clear that they do not approve of or tolerate any form of harassment based on gender, sexual orientation, race or religion. Supporting the rights of women to simply be gamers, not 'women gamers', and especially not to be harassed or attacked because of their gender, this would be an excellent thing. It's a real and serious problem and it can make participation in the gaming community a hell of a lot less fun for women.

While I don't think they need to dumb down or Disney-fy their art and storylines to G-rated by any means, depictions of sexuality and 'sexiness' really need to be situationally appropriate and not the default just for females. That means if she is out in the wilderness or fighting goblins, she should be dressed for it. Lingerie does not grant a +5 armor class. A fighting stance does not show butt and boobs. Armor should be shaped like armor, not like boobs.

Wanna show some cheesecake? Fine. Show beefcake, too, and don't put either one in a place where it's stupid.

Female characters in a storyline should be as diverse in their origins, abilities and motives as the male characters. To writers and GM's, I recommend the exercise of initially writing your NPC's without assigning them a gender, or randomly swapping their genders. Can you do it? If not, why not?

Ripley's character in the original Alien movie was initially written as male. Nothing was changed except the gender. I don't think anyone can argue that it's not a powerful and effective storyline. That was a well drawn female character, specifically because they did not materially change anything from when it was written as male. She's definitely not a stereotype of 'a woman', which is a really unfortunate shortcut a lot of writers and GM's tend to take when fleshing out NPC's. She also isn't a stereotype of a man. She's just a human character with powerful motivations and an interesting back story, and that's what makes her effective.

Paizo is one of the least worst offenders already and has been pretty good about inclusivity. Not to say there's no room for improvement, but I don't think the RPG Superstar contest conditions need to change. The underlying reasons why women are not well represented don't actually have much to do with the contest rules per se.


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Neil Spicer wrote:
That means an all-female writer's support group could be a step in the right direction.

While there's nothing wrong with this if people want to do it, I would caution against the possibility of ghettoization. I value feedback from different perspectives, so I would not personally want to limit myself to a single gender group. Other people's mileage may vary.

What is important, imo, is not that a support group be all female, but that females are not treated differently *in any way*, with an absolute zero tolerance policy for harassment or gender based bullying. That, I think, would be really helpful.

A 'blind to gender' feedback group might be useful also, where nobody discloses their gender to avoid having that influence anyone's perception. It's a fairly easy to moderate approach to avoiding gender based bullying, both the subtle and unsubtle varieties. You have one rule - nobody discloses or discusses their gender, you don't ask and you don't tell.

Quote:
And it also means the guys need to be more knowledgeable and attentive to how they conduct themselves with regards to ladies in gaming, both here on the messageboards and at their gaming tables. Paizo's developers will need to be more attentive towards it, as well.

Yes. This. It's actually a surprisingly difficult thing to understand if you aren't being personally impacted. Even nice guys who are trying very hard to be nice may not automatically understand the underlying issues or why their natural assumptions may be dismissive, invalidating or otherwise hurtful to someone who doesn't automatically get to breathe the same air they do. And it's not their fault, nor is it fair to blame someone for getting to freely breathe air and not natively understanding what it is like for people who aren't automatically awarded the same privilege.

Quote:
And yet, like any other publisher in this industry, they know sex still sells. And, if the majority of their customer base is still male, sexy women in their gaming products are going to help them sell more.

Nail. Head. Hammer. Hit. As long as this is true, and I suspect it will continue to be true until we evolve into advanced hermaphroditic organisms that reproduce by fission, it will be an economic factor.

The problem with this unavoidable truth is that it leads immediately to another unavoidable truth. A heterosexual women who picks up this material is likely to feel that she is using a product that is clearly not made for her. It is made for the heterosexual male gaze, and she is intended as the product, not the consumer. That can be a surprisingly powerful message, and a pervasive one.

The best solution I have to this is to keep the cheesecake, add a reasonable amount of beefcake, and make sure both are depicted in appropriate situations rather than being sexualized in inappropriate situations to the point they can't be taken seriously. It's fine to show characters being sexy or sexual. It is not fine to show that women are never allowed to be normal fighters, they have to be *sexy* fighters even when it's suicidally stupid.

Being sexy is okay, but it should not be shown as more important to a woman than minor little details like not getting killed or not being able to do anything effectively. Unless your NPC really is that crazy, in which case, she's not dead yet, why?

Drawing or writing some of the iconic characters doing the naughty with one another, in various gendered combinations, would be a totally legit way of making sex sell the game. They just shouldn't be doing the naughty while they are surrounded by bugbears. Unless the bugbears are joining in, of course.

....I'm not really sure anyone would want to see that, though. Because, bugbears.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6 aka squidfeatures

I still wonder how much sexy is actually selling Pathfinder material though. How many people buy an adventure path or a campaign setting because there's cleavage on the cover, or because the sorcerer is showing a little leg (a lot actually)? How many copies of the APG sold because Oracles are hot?

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8

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TanithT wrote:

The best solution I have to this is to keep the cheesecake, add a reasonable amount of beefcake, and make sure both are depicted in appropriate situations rather than being sexualized in inappropriate situations to the point they can't be taken seriously. It's fine to show characters being sexy or sexual. It is not fine to show that women are never allowed to be normal fighters, they have to be *sexy* fighters even when it's suicidally stupid.

Being sexy is okay, but it should not be shown as more important to a woman than minor little details like not getting killed or not being able to do anything effectively. Unless your NPC really is that crazy, in which case, she's not dead yet, why?

Well, as a bro-philic male gamer myself, I'll say that I'm actually in favor of adding unreasonable amounts of beefcake, though that's unlikely to drive sales. I've played male front-line fighters whose +5 full plate consisted of no more than bracers, gauntlets, greaves, and a smile (oh, and a mercurial greatsword). Personally, I'm okay with suspending my disbelief to include the highly impractical, turbo-sexualized armor the would probably my characters killed within the first six seconds of a real fight. But hey, it's a tabletop RPG and so long as my GM is willing to lower the bar for everyone, my male characters will likely continue to be *sexy* fighters (or wizards, whatever).

Ultimately, when it comes to how much flesh an adventurer can/should reasonably show while dungeoneering, your mileage may vary.

That being said, Pathfinder's female iconics are unequivocally more conventionally attractive than any of the male iconics, which I find to be offensive in a weird, reverse-sexism sort of way (the cavalier, perhaps, being an exception). If there are new iconics introduced down the line, this disparity in gendered hotness really should be addressed.

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Garrett Guillotte wrote:

To echo earlier points, RPG Superstar doesn't have much of a profile. I'd never heard of it in game stores, never saw an insert promoting it in any shipped product I ordered, didn't hear about it at Beginner Box Bashes. The only press I ever see on RPGSS are on some of the game blogs I follow, after the Top 32 are announced. I don't see it postered in FLGSs in the winter. There're no official PFS tie-ins to Superstar. The only mention of RPGSS in the Paizo catalogs are in the blurbs for the winning modules.

I only found out about it last year after being an Open Design patron, lurking the boards, seeing someone mention it, and doing some Googling.

If you don't visit paizo.com during Superstar season, I daresay you'd never know it was going on; even then, we always hear from people on the RPGSS boards who only heard about it right before (and after) the deadline.

This is very true. I suppose Paizo could do a better job at advertising the contest.

But fans of the contest could certainly help as well. Advertise it in your blogs, personal websites, Facebook, and so on.

Or do what I did last summer. I held a presentation titled The Black Art of Magic Item Design at Ropecon, the biggest RPG con in Finland. There were about 20 people in the audience, maybe 40% female, 60% male. Besides offering some insight on magic/wondrous item design, I also advertised the RPG Superstar contest and encouraged everyone to enter.

How many of those people entered? I don't know, really, but I know at least one did. I know because he made the top 32. :-)

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An add blurb in the 2013 Free ROG day would help.


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Mikael Sebag wrote:
That being said, Pathfinder's female iconics are unequivocally more conventionally attractive than any of the male iconics, which I find to be offensive in a weird, reverse-sexism sort of way (the cavalier, perhaps, being an exception). If there are new iconics introduced down the line, this disparity in gendered hotness really should be addressed.

This. And not just the iconics. Female NPCs (especially humans) almost uniformly look hot and airbrushed. Even the Gray Maidens are sexy-scarred. The guys look dirty and sweaty and unshaven. Which, quite frankly, is how they should look if they're out adventuring in a dungeon, but the same standard doesn't get applied to the women who, like June Cleaver, look like they wake up in makeup and pearls.

Personally, I'd like see some unrealistically-attractive male art. I like eye candy, too. Female NPCs are always drawn hot to appeal to the male gamer, but I almost never see an attractive depiction of a male NPC for my PC to romance. Flip through The Wormwood Mutiny and compare Rosie Cusswell and Sandara Quinn to the male pirates the party is supposed to befriend. Heck, Sandara Quinn is described as "looking like someone you wouldn't want to cross," but she's drawn like Pirate Barbie.*

*:
I don't just mean her body but the docile and somewhat blank look on her face, and the slightly open mouth, like a perfume model. Men are never drawn staring dewily into the camera like that. They generally have their mouths closed and jaws firmly set to show resolve. Rosie Cusswell, while definitely conventionally attractive, also looks like she'd take some fingers off if you tried to pat her head, which is entirely appropriate.

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Mikael Sebag wrote:


That being said, Pathfinder's female iconics are unequivocally more conventionally attractive than any of the male iconics, which I find to be offensive in a weird, reverse-sexism sort of way (the cavalier, perhaps, being an exception). If there are new iconics introduced down the line, this disparity in gendered hotness really should be addressed.

When I was reading through this thread and thinking about the iconics, another theory about them occured to me that actually disturbs me more than the artwork. I haven't completely thought this through yet, so feel free to correct me if you disagree.

It appears to me that the majority of the male iconics belong to classes that earn their special powers through practice, study, and pure skill (e.g. fighter, wizard, monk, alchemist, bard, ranger, magus). Meanwhile, female iconics tend to belong the classes that are gifted their powers through their association with, or devotion to, external forces (e.g. sorceror, cleric, oracle, witch, paladin, druid, inquisitor).

I realize there are a few exceptions to this in the iconic lineup, and I would never accuse anyone at Paizo of setting it up that way intentionally. But I wonder of this reflects a subconcious bias or implies something about gender roles in a fantasy setting.


Mark Nordheim wrote:


When I was reading through this thread and thinking about the iconics, another theory about them occured to me that actually disturbs me more than the artwork. I haven't completely thought this through yet, so feel free to correct me if you disagree.

It appears to me that the majority of the male iconics belong to classes that earn their special powers through practice, study, and pure skill (e.g. fighter, wizard, monk, alchemist, bard, ranger, magus). Meanwhile, female iconics tend to belong the classes that are gifted their powers through their association with, or devotion to, external forces (e.g. sorceror, cleric, oracle, witch, paladin, druid, inquisitor).

I realize there are a few exceptions to this in the iconic lineup, and I would never accuse anyone at Paizo of setting it up that way intentionally. But I wonder of this reflects a subconcious bias or implies something about gender roles in a fantasy setting.

With the exception of the barbarian, of course...

It's an interesting thought. I hadn't looked at it in that light before. But then I really don't look at the iconics as much more than window dressing where the product is concerned. The NPCs in various adventures and supplements run the gamut of choices and the iconics are a small group in comparison to those other characters.

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I'm very glad that this discussion is going on and that it's being conducted in a civilised manner. I'm very much aware of the appalling way in which Anita Sarkeesian was treated when she started looking at misogyny in video games. That having been said, it may be that things are starting to shift, given that a lot of people have also come out in opposition to that kind of misogyny.

The political scientist in me, though, does agree with the people who have said this discussion would be easier with data. I seem to remember a community survey last year. It might be useful to have something on there, both for Paizo and as general advice for everyone in the RPG community, about what would bring more women into gaming, and encourage more of those already involved to take part in things like RPG Superstar. It'd be even better if Paizo did it themselves.

The idea of a women in gaming panel at Paizocon or Gencon sounds terrific.

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I'm curious about the female designers' items that made the Top 89 this year. I know there's agirlnamedbob's paper messenger and Tiercis' weathered quiver and my dragonscale fan. Are there any other ladies out there whose items made the popular vote cutoff this time around?

Also, I was previously reading with interest the discussion about whether female designers would be more likely to make female-specific items, or whether those items were more likely to be submitted by males trying to pass themselves off as female for some sort of contest advantage. Of the three items mentioned above, I think it's interesting to see that only mine could possibly be considered female-specific. And even for mine, I must say, when I designed it, I wasn't thinking of it as a female-specific item . . . a fan just seemed like a neat and logical method of both defending against energy and creating a wave of said energy. I also liked the idea that it's something most people would not suspect of being used as a weapon, and yet there's precedent for it. However, if I wasn't a female who enjoyed using and collecting a few of the gorgeous hand-painted fans I saw when I visited Spain, I probably wouldn't have thought of that item concept. I suppose we write what we know. And, although we females know much more than just stereotypically female stuff, I suppose it doesn't hurt that we know some of that stuff, too. :)


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If I recall the dragonscale fan correctly (was that the fan that could be used to produce burning hands-like cone of energy dealing damage based on the scale color?) then I haven't noticed anything that would suggest the author was a woman. On the other hands I played a lot of Legend Of Five Rings and don't associate fans exclusively with females... I think that comparable number of fans was broken by male and female players on our sessions.


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Bugbears.

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Drejk, that's the one. I'm glad to hear it didn't seem female-only to you. it wasn't supposed to be. Earlier during voting you made a comment wondering why a certain item had a specified range, not a scaling range. I was curious if you happened to be talking about my item. If so, I stuck with the 15 ft. cone like burning hands since I was already increasing the damage and using Heighten Spell to increase the DC, and Quicken Spell to make it a move action. I didn't want to make the fan too overpowered or crazy expensive. :)

Sissyl, what about bugbears?


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I don't remember details but I am sure it wasn't related to your item - the 15-ft. range cone-shaped burst made perfect sense for an item inspired with elemental (acid/cold/electricity/fire) burning hands. I think I was referring to an item with a range of 35 or 45 feet, which would be right for a close range of a spell but didn't match the item's CL. Or something like that.

Were the bugbears reference to breaking fans?


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Drejk wrote:
On the other hands I played a lot of Legend Of Five Rings and don't associate fans exclusively with females...

I would think any fan (excuse the pun) of Asian history or RPGs, or martial arts movies would be of the same frame of mind.

There were a few items in the mix that seemed overtly geared towards women, at least from a modern standpoint: make-up, a purse (especially this one because gender was pegged in the item's name),hair ties (not much of a stretch for a long-haired dude like myself, but these had a Rapunzel vibe going) and perfumes. Now all four of those items could be considered gender neutral in the right societal mindset (Taldan nobility, for example, probably go through a lot of cosmetics and perfumes no matter what gender they are).


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Quote:
Drejk wrote:
On the other hands I played a lot of Legend Of Five Rings and don't associate fans exclusively with females...
I would think any fan (excuse the pun) of Asian history or RPGs, or martial arts movies would be of the same frame of mind.

A female friend once declared she won't bring her fans to session anymore because the men always got their hands on them and fanned themselves or used them to hide smiles when their ploys were discovered leaving her with no fan to conceal her face. We played a deeply political sessions then, fans were of great use, especially to one (male) player who could not stop himself from giggling when his intrigues progressed without our knowledge.

I have seen perfumes and I think that I have seen make-up. I don't recall seeing hair ties and purse but I might have forgotten them.

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Most of what I have seen has been gender-neutral in my opinion. Even make-up can be gender neutral. Look at Osirion, if we go with the general ancient egypt feel, men and women alike wore kohl around the eyes, etc

Perfumes were often used by men and women in the baroque and renissance periods.

And hair ties? How many male NPCs and PCs out there have long hair?

I think, all around, the submissions were excellent in this regard. Even my horribly dull item was gender neutral. And I can't RP a man to save my life - I've tried, he was a very cynical and gruff personality. Very 1 dimensional.

So kudos to all for that!

Also, excuse my spelling today.


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It's interesting because I often play female characters, my character for our Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign was a 36 year old female Galtian noble (Witch) who had fled Galt with her daughter after her husband had been executed and her sons torn apart by the mob.

She maintained her self in Korvosa as a perfumer and designer of couture. Her goals we to gain status and power in Korvosa and make sure her daughter was married off into a suitably rich and powerful family.

I kind of based her on Glenn Close's character from Dangerous Liaisons and Coco Chanel.

I would have been happy for gender specific items for my character, fans, purses, purfumes all suited her.

We were the best smelling, most stylish party of Adventurer/rebels ever.


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Drejk wrote:
Were the bugbears reference to breaking fans?

It was a reference to an earlier post in this thread that included a certain tongue-in-cheek suggestion.

I don't think it's likely to be considered very seriously by Paizo's marketing department, however. Even if sex does sell.

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I just want to point out that some takes on bugbears could possibly tap into the largely untapped Bear-market.

Probably not Golarion's bugbears though.

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Marie Small wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted ** Great story about being in game store.

Every time I hear these stories I am reminded of the numerous scenes from Big Bang Theory when Penny or one of the other female characters end up at the comic book store. It is almost painfully funny to watch how close to the real world that show can be. We're women, not aliens.

For those who are posting that they want to be part of the support group that ChibiAmy and I discussed, ChibiAmy PM'd me and if she hasn't pinged you yet, drop her a line. I'm sure we'll start hammering out how we want to proceed.

Part of me thinks that we might want to consider doing our "thing" here though, so that we remain part of the community we are looking to give back to. It will also allow us to solicit input from both the general population and the Paizo staff who seem to be pretty interested in this thread in general. I personally don't want to see us remove ourselves from the forum and artificially isolate ourselves when our goal is for deeper inclusion.

Hey look, my two cents too ;-)

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Doug Bailey wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:
Doug Bailey wrote:
What this data implies is only 5% of passionate gamers are female.
No, what it implies that possibly 5% of passionate gamers interested in game design, of a competitive spirit, who feel comfortable with wondrous item design, who feel confident enough to enter a major contest, who feel that they have the time and interest to eventually become a freelance game designer, who are members of the Paizo community, who managed to get an item written and submitted by December 18, are female.

No? So you think gamers are 50/50 male and female but females are just less inclined to exhibit the attributes you list above? I think that is quite sexist. I think its more likely to imply that females are equally as passionate gamers interested in game design, of a competitive spirit, who feel comfortable with wondrous item design, etc. as males are but the pool of female gamers is 5% the size of male games.

I'm not quite sure I followed you here Doug, but I can assure you, that of all the things DQ listed, I am every last one, except interested in becoming a freelance game designer and thus did not manage to get an item written and submitted. DQ's comment really isn't sexist, it's quite specific and excludes a lot of people, gender non-specific, who also do not wish to land a freelance game designer position.

Perhaps we will never see more than 5% participation in RPGSS by women because they don't want to be freelance writers. Or maybe we'll see a higher percentage of women participating because fewer men enter and skew the numbers that way.

Either way, your comment that the data implies only 5% of passionate gamers are female is not a valid statement.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka mamaursula

Drejk wrote:
Quote:
Drejk wrote:
On the other hands I played a lot of Legend Of Five Rings and don't associate fans exclusively with females...
I would think any fan (excuse the pun) of Asian history or RPGs, or martial arts movies would be of the same frame of mind.

A female friend once declared she won't bring her fans to session anymore because the men always got their hands on them and fanned themselves or used them to hide smiles when their ploys were discovered leaving her with no fan to conceal her face. We played a deeply political sessions then, fans were of great use, especially to one (male) player who could not stop himself from giggling when his intrigues progressed without our knowledge.

I have seen perfumes and I think that I have seen make-up. I don't recall seeing hair ties and purse but I might have forgotten them.

I loved playing L5R CCG in it's earlier years, I never considered taking fans to any games, but now that you mention it, I think my LARP vampire needs to start carrying one.

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Guy Russell wrote:
I still wonder how much sexy is actually selling Pathfinder material though. How many people buy an adventure path or a campaign setting because there's cleavage on the cover, or because the sorcerer is showing a little leg (a lot actually)? How many copies of the APG sold because Oracles are hot?

I had this same question. The sexy covers make sense for regular prose novels, when someone might just be browsing the shelves at the bookstore, and hope that a sexy cover means there will be sexy scenes inside. But that same thought process doesn't seem like it would apply to gaming products. Is anyone out there thinking to themselves "You know, I'd like to get this (new rulebook with cool options for my character/next installment of the AP I'm running), but it just doesn't look sexy enough for my tastes..."

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One point that hasn't been brought up here, that I'll just go ahead and throw out there is that despite the general feelings of us girls not wanting to be taken down to the level of "just meaningless visual sexy objects" ...women still buy products that focus on sexy ladies.

I get that revealing armor is dangerous and stupid...and all the other points along those lines that have been mentioned. I was just recently giggling at a picture for an upcoming game that involved a female wearing what I can only describe as a battle thong and chest sling/strap. She was also wearing fur lined boots and a big furry cape-ish thing, which makes a certain amount of sense, because she was very obviously cold.

Here's the thing, though. Most of my straight female friends would totally fight over who gets that mini at the table. Why? Because it's funny and whether we admit it or not, that imaginary lady made that battle thong look good. Strong and sexy doesn't have to be half-naked, but that doesn't mean it can't be either. If women weren't interested in buying that sort of thing, they wouldn't buy Cosmo and Vogue and watch Top Model and all of that. Even if you look at health and fitness magazines, a lot of them have cover images that are a mix of strong and sexy.

Maybe those images aren't as patently ridiculous as a female fighter in sexy armor and butt-kicking heels, but from my experience there are quite a few women who like the idea of being the girl in the butt-kicking heels. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with that. As long as you have a healthy sense of self and self-worth, you can pretend to be whatever you want. (Or even if that's a little lacking, because the escapism, and there is an element of escapism and wish-fulfillment with role-playing, of gaming has sure helped me through some rough spots where I just needed to take a break and not be me for a couple hours.) I don't see it as any different than a guy playing a character with six-pack abs and a through-the-roof charisma. With women, though I think there's such a mix of strong opinions here that this subject gets really difficult.

Full disclosure: I'm bi and I have a few female friends who are either bi, lesbian, or have a fluid sexual orientation. So that might skew my perspective and some of the perspectives I've seen, but even among my straight female gamer friends there's kind of a divide between the part, whether it's culturally indoctrinated or not, that wants to be seen as sexy and desirable and the part that's indignant over being seen as something that is only sexy and desirable and serves no other purpose.

Admitting that maybe you want to be the girl who wears sexy armor causes shame, too, because suddenly you're just as bad as everyone else and a part of the problem. That's why female cosplayers get so much grief from both sexes.

These are complex issues that speak to deep-seated cultural and gender identity issues. I don't think there are any easy answers, but I think the first step is being completely honest and understanding lots of different perspectives. So just wanted to throw in my two cp. because it seems like this aspect of things hasn't been discussed.

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agirlnamedbob wrote:

One point that hasn't been brought up here, that I'll just go ahead and throw out there is that despite the general feelings of us girls not wanting to be taken down to the level of "just meaningless visual sexy objects" ...women still buy products that focus on sexy ladies.

I get that revealing armor is dangerous and stupid...and all the other points along those lines that have been mentioned. I was just recently giggling at a picture for an upcoming game that involved a female wearing what I can only describe as a battle thong and chest sling/strap. She was also wearing fur lined boots and a big furry cape-ish thing, which makes a certain amount of sense, because she was very obviously cold.

Take my guys point of view with a grain of salt if you will. I appreciate the female form, and I'm a fan of chainmail bikinis and armor-bras when I see them worn at Cons, or in art. I'll enjoy looking at a broad chested John Carter type ALMOST as much as I sexy Deja Thoris type, what really bothers me is the misogynistic flavor of so much of the art in the genre. By that I don't mean Paizo art, or the old TSR stuff. I mean the Boris Vallejo and Frank Frazetta art depicting a buxsom topless femaled chained to the saddle of the conquering hero, or the dainty buxsom topless female cowering while the conquering hero stands between her and imminent death, or worse! Give me a strong Deja Thoris, or Red Sonja, type any day.

I don't know how many people here watch Once Upon a Time, but the females in that show are very independant, and sexy, without running around in diaphonous silks over barely there chainmail. The Mulan character is completely armored, and without gratuitous "boob armor" of any sort, and she looks sexy, and deadly. I suppose she didn't need to be sexy, or even attractive, but that's not a factor of the show being fantasy, it's a factor of the show being on TV. Everyone is prettier on TV.

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agirlnamedbob wrote:


--the rest of this cool post regrettably omitted for space--

...(Or even if that's a little lacking, because the escapism, and there is an element of escapism and wish-fulfillment with role-playing, of gaming has sure helped me through some rough spots where I just needed to take a break and not be me for a couple hours.) I don't see it as any different than a guy playing a character with six-pack abs and a through-the-roof charisma. With women, though I think there's such a mix of strong opinions here that this subject gets really difficult.

--same as above--

From what I've always gathered, it's not that the sexualization of the female form is inherently offensive, but rather the ubiquity of the archetype and the lack of any clearly displayed alternatives.

I completely understand the want to be the sexy character. In basically every game I've ever played, I've had at least one "the sexy character." The issue that gets brought up time and time again is that the sexy character should be a possibility, rather than an inevitability. Were I playing many an older roleplaying game than Pathfinder, the artwork and tone of the rulebook would have established that my male player's lithe, handsome half-orc maestro sorcerer could have just as easily been a bookish wizard or a brutal barbarian, whereas my female player's sexy priestess of Calistria could have been a sexy wizard, or a sexy barbarian, or a sexy priestess of a deity of piety and chastity.


TwoDee wrote:
From what I've always gathered, it's not that the sexualization of the female form is inherently offensive, but rather the ubiquity of the archetype and the lack of any clearly displayed alternatives.

Yup.

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TwoDee wrote:
From what I've always gathered, it's not that the sexualization of the female form is inherently offensive, but rather the ubiquity of the archetype and the lack of any clearly displayed alternatives.

Agreed, but the point I'm trying to make is that some people take it upon themselves to "solve" this problem by immediately jumping on it and ripping it to shreds, or saying the solution is to just get rid of it. I don't believe that's happening here, but I've seen militant reactions that are hurtful (to both men and women) elsewhere before.

It's like with sexy halloween costumes. Everything gets sex-ified and then the people who take offense and see it as anti-woman or something similar respond with slurs and hate... some of it directed at men, some of it directed at the women who participate in the whole thing.

It's similar to the reason why a woman I know who chose to be a fulltime wife and mother sometimes feels looked down upon in a society that fought hard to make sure that women could choose to be whatever they wanted.

I felt like it was worth presenting the other side of the argument because I feel like it doesn't get brought up as much.

TwoDee wrote:
Were I playing many an older roleplaying game than Pathfinder, the artwork and tone of the rulebook would have established that my male player's lithe, handsome half-orc maestro sorcerer could have just as easily been a bookish wizard or a brutal barbarian, whereas my female player's sexy priestess of Calistria could have been a sexy wizard, or a sexy barbarian, or a sexy priestess of a deity of piety and chastity.

Kinda like what I was saying with the halloween costumes. You can be a sexy nurse, or a sexy cop, or a sexy vampire, or a sexy nun...

I think my point here is I don't see this particular issue still being as prevalent. Yeah, sure, maybe there are a lot of sexy and scantily clad girls around, but many of them are CAPABLE. They're shown as being active forces, not simply forces who are acted upon (like was brought up before with the art). Illustrations, like TV and movies, tend to suffer from the "everyone is prettier than in real life" thing. But I'm not seeing every pretty chick in a slave Leia costume chained to some dude's throne.

I think part of this comes from the fact that I'm younger and wasn't as exposed to some of the older roleplaying games that keep getting brought up, as well as the fact that my gaming group is awesome, but I've never felt like since I'm a girl, I'm somehow limited to playing the "sexy ______." In fact, I usually play dudes. But even books that do lack in strong female characters have never made me feel alienated. Other things have, but not that. Again, my experiences. YMMV.

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If the FB/Google+ group will have a Y chromosome I'd be happy to review for them. If the goal is to help some female designers become ringers in a supportive environment, I would gladly serve in a strictly limited capacity. I will also be an active member of the Blazin' 9.

RPG Superstar 2009, Contributor

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Being a father with three young girls who are all growing into interested gamers, I'd be interested both in following along with such a group and/or supporting it however I can. But only if the lady members ask for such a thing. I don't want to intrude, but at the same time I also don't want to see the ladies excluded from the larger community either. So, consider me a resource if you want an extra opinion on anything.

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