Kinda wanted to branch off from my earlier thread as I thought about it, but why is there no existing guide to the Mystic Theurge? I'm really not even sure what spells one is supposed to pick, and thanks to some advice I got, I feel heavily tempted to play an optimized one for a Carrion Crown game I'll be playing in after my run as a Kingmaker DM. I'm especially interested in all the potential uses for the final ability of the Prestige Class, since it allows you to cast two spells at the same time with some restrictions applied.
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I think "optimized" with respect to Mystic Theurge is a very relative term. The class is notoriously weak, and there's not really a good way to get around that.
If you want to play a theurge, resign yourself that you will be focused on utility, not power. In combat, your party will outshine you.
The other reason there's probably no guide is that it's so highly dependent on party makeup. A theurge will be most useful when his spell list overlaps as little as possible with everyone else. So if there's already a druid, your divine class should be a cleric. If there's an oracle, you could be either a druid or cleric (because you will be able to prepare spells the oracle won't take, like Remove Curse.)
For Carrion Crown, you'll almost definitely want to be a cleric with something like Sun domain. For your arcane class, take Necromancy wizard to get either Turn Undead or Command Undead as a bonus feat.
As I say every time someone mentions a MT, look at playing a Witch instead. To me, the Witch is what the MT should have been, plus hexes.
Your party will have to carry you from levels two through about eight if you plan to MT. That's fine with you have 6 party members or so, but a party of only 4 will be really gimped.
Some basic tips would be: half-elf for the two favored classes, empyreal sorcerers use wisdom for casting letting you only need one stat if you go cleric/sorcerer, spontaneous casters are somewhat less effective at using combined spells, and you can almost forget about high level spells. If you go cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic 10, that would get you 7th level spells that you could Spell Synthesis at level 16 (most APs don't get that high so you may never see it).
Some basic tips would be: half-elf for the two favored classes...
Umm... I am not so sure about this one.
After all, you won't ever be able to favor MT, so all you get is the favored class bonus for three more 3 levels... which I don't perceive as that mind-bogglingly good.
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mt is very valuable.
its a much better class then a solid wizard, if you choose the right spells.
first: focus on no save non damaging spells. if you do pick spells that require saves, make sure you choose reflex as the save stats. create pit stone rain, and a few other gems will keep your value for a very long time.
second: choosing sorcerer/oracle can be a better choice then wizard cleric. while wizard cleric gain spells faster, an oricle and sorcerer share a caster stat, which makes them very valuable together. by choosing something like a heavens oracle you can make a level one spell (color spray) a save or die spell all the way until 12th level. that utility makes up for the lack of high level spells you would normall gain during those levels. choosing a bloodline like undead, nets you the ability to charm undead, even mindless. that can be very powerful when you charm/dominate a litch, or other human base undead.
third: you will be the best party buffer ever. you gain the ability to cast healing, buff/debuff, raise dead, restoration, and more that i dont have time to list. you will break encounters by making your fellow team members better at what they do.
in conclusion MT is non valued because you have to build 2 different spell lists, but in actuality, if you're ok with playing a support character that focuses on "god" spells and party buffing, you will make a full wizard or cleric very jealous.
Witch is an awful class.
... you've never played a witch, have you. Witch is an amazing class, one of the most powerful. Evil Eye, Slumber, and Misfortune are all amazing abilities, and you can use them all day, every day.
Vs MT you give up full arcane and cleric list, dual spells bonuses, the ability to switch slots between classes, and perhaps the most overpowered lvl 10 power of a prestige class by breaking the action economy. On MT all you give up is a spell level behind pure arcane/divine which can easily be offset with MM rods.
What metamagic rod are you using that gives you higher level spells? The problem with MT is that you don't get high-level spells until 3 levels after a single-classed full caster.
Besides, that's not all that the Mystic Theurge gives up, they also lose any progression in their class abilities. A wizard loses his high-level school abilities, a druid loses his animal companion and wild shape advancement, a cleric loses his channeling advancement, etc. These aren't generally make-or-break, but considering your spells are weak and your class abilities are weaker, you will never pack much punch.
And as far as breaking the action economy, a Rod of Quicken will do the same. Except a Rod of Quicken is three times per day, instead of once per day.
Sure if you are trying to out damage the two handed fighter in your group thats not going to happen but your utility/buff/debuff/summon options are astronomical and enough slots to do them all. The fact you can get specialist and two cleric domains while increasing both classes is very nice.
Funny you mention getting two domains and specialist, because those are exactly the things that are kneecapped by going Mystic Theurge. The Mystic Theurge gains spellcasting levels only for spells, not for these class abilities.
But go Witch instead? For what, a few low DC hexes and a piss-poor spell list (no Heal, Harm, Time stop, Wish, etc etc etc)? No cleric domains or specialist options? Are you serious? Witch is one of the most overrated, one dimensional classes of all time and bad flavor to boot.
Worst. Advice. Ever.
What low DC? Witch hex DCs scale just as well as spells do (+1 DC per two levels.) The spell list does indeed leave something to be desired, but the fact that you can spam powerful hexes like no tomorrow more than makes up for it.
And bad flavor? Seriously? You are not trying hard enough if you can't flavor a witch to your liking.
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As I say every time someone mentions a MT, look at playing a Witch instead. To me, the Witch is what the MT should have been, plus hexes.
Witch is an awful class. Vs MT you give up full arcane and cleric list, dual spells bonuses, the ability to switch slots between classes, and perhaps the most overpowered lvl 10 power of a prestige class by breaking the action economy. On MT all you give up is a spell level behind pure arcane/divine which can easily be offset with MM rods. Sure if you are trying to out damage the two handed fighter in your group thats not going to happen but your utility/buff/debuff/summon options are astronomical and enough slots to do them all. The fact you can get specialist and two cleric domains while increasing both classes is very nice.
But go Witch instead? For what, a few low DC hexes and a piss-poor spell list (no Heal, Harm, Time stop, Wish, etc etc etc)? No cleric domains or specialist options? Are you serious? Witch is one of the most overrated, one dimensional classes of all time and bad flavor to boot.
Worst. Advice. Ever.
Grayfeather, you are just plain wrong. Witches are very VERY powerful. I believe they're more powerful than Wizards up through at least level 15. Hexes are mind-bogglingly good, especially at lower levels.
Now, what kind of Mystic Theurge would you make from a Cleric with the following stats?
Strength 15
Dexterity 16
Constitution 15
Intelligence 19
Wisdom 18
Charisma 14
The group where I am considering to make an MT consists of an Inquisitor, a Gunslinger and a Monk / Sorcerer (Zen Archer + Empyreal Bloodline).
As I say every time someone mentions a MT, look at playing a Witch instead. To me, the Witch is what the MT should have been, plus hexes.
Witch is an awful class. Vs MT you give up full arcane and cleric list, dual spells bonuses, the ability to switch slots between classes, and perhaps the most overpowered lvl 10 power of a prestige class by breaking the action economy. On MT all you give up is a spell level behind pure arcane/divine which can easily be offset with MM rods. Sure if you are trying to out damage the two handed fighter in your group thats not going to happen but your utility/buff/debuff/summon options are astronomical and enough slots to do them all. The fact you can get specialist and two cleric domains while increasing both classes is very nice.
But go Witch instead? For what, a few low DC hexes and a piss-poor spell list (no Heal, Harm, Time stop, Wish, etc etc etc)? No cleric domains or specialist options? Are you serious? Witch is one of the most overrated, one dimensional classes of all time and bad flavor to boot.
Worst. Advice. Ever.
LOL. Read Rufus and Beck's posts immediately before this one, rather than me try to convince you.
Play a witch just once, then get back to me about its power.
In 3.5 I had ridiculous fun with a gnome Druid 7 / Wizard 3 / Theurge 10.
Then again, 3.5 was the applicable statement there and druids were a different animal completely.
Maybe try something different? Use just 3/4 BAB classes to make your MT. Something like an Oracle/Magus? Yuck, even as I type that I hate it.
Hrm.
Hah!
Do a Witch/Adept. MT is a non-optimized class anyways, so do it for the lols!
Now, what kind of Mystic Theurge would you make from a Cleric with the following stats?
Strength 15
Dexterity 16
Constitution 15
Intelligence 19
Wisdom 18
Charisma 14The group where I am considering to make an MT consists of an Inquisitor, a Gunslinger and a Monk / Sorcerer (Zen Archer + Empyreal Bloodline).
I'd go wizard. Don't focus too much on the type because, again, your class abilities don't level up with MT.
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Mystic Theurge is one of those classes that is difficult to get to survivability and then isn't that great when you do.
Ironically, given the "AP's are too hard" discussion in another thread, I wonder if it's versatility in a larger party when it does finally reach "success" might make it a good friend to a group made up of overly specifically powerful optimizers.
But that is probably a side conversation.
Wow! Nice stats!
For your cleric, remember that any level-dependent abilities are going to be capped at level 3. Therefore, it's better to take domains like Luck that aren't level-dependent.
Therefore, I would recommend taking Desna as a patron and take your pick from the Travel, Luck, and Liberation domains.
I recommended a Necromancy wizard earlier but upon a second look the save DCs for Turn or Command Undead will start out low and won't scale (the DC is 10 + 1/2 wizard level + charisma). Instead, I would take the Foresight subschool, which will let you act in the surprise round, and give you the awesome Prescience ability.
It's already decided that my Cleric worships Pharasma.
Mystic Theurge is one of those classes that is difficult to get to survivability and then isn't that great when you do.
Ironically, given the "AP's are too hard" discussion in another thread, I wonder if it's versatility in a larger party when it does finally reach "success" might make it a good friend to a group made up of overly specifically powerful optimizers.
But that is probably a side conversation.
Given two of the players are aiming for what seem to be somewhat less optimal choices (Gunslinger/Inquisitor and Zen Archer/Empyreal Bloodline Sorcerer), I'm not too worried about the versatility thing. Then again, I just got hooked on to the idea of having a fun Mystic Theurge build to go with instead of going through the whole AP using only Cleric levels.
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Now, what kind of Mystic Theurge would you make from a Cleric with the following stats?
Strength 15
Dexterity 16
Constitution 15
Intelligence 19
Wisdom 18
Charisma 14The group where I am considering to make an MT consists of an Inquisitor, a Gunslinger and a Monk / Sorcerer (Zen Archer + Empyreal Bloodline).
With those stats you are going to go Wizard. I suggest starting cleric and then adding Wizard (better surviability and group utility.)
You'll need three of each. Make sure you pick a domain with a good early feature (like travel) and I would go with the bonded object for the wizard (unless your GM will target it)
The group is going to be consistently behind power level casting, with a 3/4 caster and two multiclasses, but who knows.
Yeah, seems everyone's voting Wizard so far.
And I am not sure which of Pharasma's domains to go with.
It's already decided that my Cleric worships Pharasma.
In that case I would highly recommend going Separatist cleric. You'll definitely want the Repose domain (staggering the BBEG with a no-save touch attack is nice) but the rest of the domain choices are fairly useless. Knowledge is the only one that I can see really coming into play at all, and even that will be capped at making a DC 22 knowledge check (which is basically a waste of a touch attack.)
So, I would go Separatist cleric of Pharasma and take Repose and then some other domain (one more push for Luck domain because it's just so awesome.)
Howabout choosing domains for flavor rather than worrying about how much you're going to get out of them? Because you're not progressing in domain abilities anyway.
He asked for an "optimized" theurge. We're trying to build an MT that doesn't suck, remember? Besides, you can flavor any domain to your liking. You'll get more flavor out of a custom-skinned domain than out of a "you can have any color as long as it's black" one.
Howabout choosing domains for flavor rather than worrying about how much you're going to get out of them? Because you're not progressing in domain abilities anyway.He asked for an "optimized" theurge. We're trying to build an MT that doesn't suck, remember? Besides, you can flavor any domain to your liking. You'll get more flavor out of a custom-skinned domain than out of a "you can have any color as long as it's black" one.
On one hand, I agree. I did ask for optimization.
However, I still find myself limiting all of it for flavor.
I appreciate the advice, but I'm one of those rare monsters who wants to balance the two.
Travel and Liberation domains will make you slippery enough---their domain powers from level 1 are really nice.
He's dead-set on Pharasma, so all the good domains are out :P
I COULD afford to take Separatist I think, if only because the character has a twisted mind-set to begin with.
No, because i mentioned its an awful class. You don't have to eat poo to know its not going to taste good. I've seen other try and fail.
Right, so you've never played the class, and yet you are the one who is the expert. And all of us who have actually tried it and found it to be incredibly powerful... what? Got lucky on saving throws?
Witch is an amazing class, .. Evil Eye, Slumber, and Misfortune are all amazing abilities, and you can use them all day, every day.So can a wizard, cleric, druid, most every other class. We dont need to do it all day cause round 3 everyones laying on the ground. Thanks for playing.
Once again, you have no clue what you're talking about, do you? How is a wizard, cleric, or druid going to get Slumber? How are they going to get Misfortune? How are they going to get Evil Eye? What do those classes do when they run out of spells?
Funny you mention getting two domains and specialist, because those are exactly the things that are kneecapped by going Mystic Theurge. The Mystic Theurge gains spellcasting levels only for spells, not for these class abilities.Riiighht, but they still have them. The witch has none. Swift action teleport at 1st level, yes please.
Wow, you can teleport 5 feet. The rest of us call that a 5 foot step. Except for everyone else, it doesn't mean that you can take no actions until your next turn.
Yes some of the advanced hexes aren't bad but they are nearly word for word rips from spells wizards and clerics are getting on top of their other spells. Wow you can summon a 18 HD outsider, I got that in a feat (True Name) and my buddy the conjurer got a perma-MS9 pet.
If you're the 7th player in a party that can be overlooked and its maybe fun as a flavor or maybe in a single player setup but in a 4 to 5 player party its literally the worst class.
If you consider Wish to be a "bread and butter" spell, then I think we are playing a very different game.
If you think hexes are "very limited", once again you have no idea what you're talking about. Try playing a witch with Evil Eye, Cackle, Slumber, and Misfortune, then come back to me and tell me how bad it is.
MT on the other hand is extremely versatile for a slight power trade off. This stacked with spell synergy means he can cast three spells in round 1 stacked with spell perfection for almost certain spell penetration and high DC. I think you have to seriously look at that and say how it that not a great option if not OP.
You don't have to get all emotional about your pick, the facts are the facts. You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.
So the MT has one good ability, it's their capstone, and they can still only use it once per day. Being able to nova once per day is a nice ability, but it's not worth giving up 3 caster levels and all your high level class abilities.
Even if the hexes and the other abilities don't do it for you, the simple fact that the MT is 3 levels behind a witch in access to spells is an argument ender.
...so now there's a debate over something as well?
Guys, you might want to take the Theurge vs Witch conversation to another thread, rather than derailing poor IcyShadow's request for Theurge build help. >.<
Oracle 3 doesn't qualify you for MT, you need to go Oracle 4.
The bad thing about Sorcerer/Oracle is that it means you are now 2-1/2 spell levels behind instead of "just" 1-1/2...
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Oracle 3 doesn't qualify you for MT, you need to go Oracle 4.
The bad thing about Sorcerer/Oracle is that it means you are now 2-1/2 spell levels behind instead of "just" 1-1/2...
Fair point, but I like spontaneous casters so much more than prepared casters, I'd probably still do Sorc 4/Oracle 4 and then do MT, then go back to Sorc for those last 4 levels if I was playing that far (for the bloodline powers, obviously). I would also make sure to get a robe of arcane heritage, cuz HELL YES!
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Ive played a MT before and there great if u want to be the heal bot. The character was a Aasimar Cleric (Healing Restoration Domain) 6/ Sorcerer (Shadow Bloodline Tattooed Sorcerer) 4/ Mystic Theurge 10. Though u dont get 9the level spells u still get 8th level cleric spells and 7th level sorcerer spells. Being able to cannibalize the sorcerer spells, which they get the greatest amount of then any other arcane caster, to perform extra heals is a god sent when ur with Killer DMs. The reason for shadow bloodline btw is to increase the darkvision the Aasimar has by another 30ft. Feats to focus on btw the feats the character focused on were crafting feats and any feat that would up the amount she healed and damage she did to undead.
BTW Healing Domain grants Healer's Blessing (Su): At 6th level, all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered, increasing the amount of damage healed by half (+50%). This does not apply to damage dealt to undead with a cure spell. This does not stack with the Empower Spell metamagic feat.
Here's a crazy idea, given the heated discussion, have you considered a Witch/Cleric/Mystic Theurge?
Sure the Hex DC's will stop scaling, but like it has been said they already are as good as spells at low levels. Also, I think you'd really have a boatload of healing spells between the 2 classes, if that's what you want. Not to mention, even a gimped hex will give you something to fall back on when you eventually run out of spells.
Agreed.
Now, back to the original question:
What kind of Mystic Theurge would I make?
Sorcerer 4 with the Daemon bloodline (for Wasting Ray)
Oracle 3 with the Dark Tapestry mystery (for Cloak of Darkness)Focus on Darkness and Shadow spells, you've got an amazing sneaky caster on your hands that can kill enemies without them ever noticing him, thanks to Wasting Ray (you just cast it in a place with no water around and they die of thirst pretty quickly, or if there IS water around you make them starve instead).
I would do something similar. Grab lvl 1 sorcerer with bloodline arcana that will boost spells in a variety of ways, cross-blooded might be your friend here. Either Serpentine and Undead to remove certain types of monsters resistances to your spells, or Marid and Rime-Blooded to allow some limited crowd control to your damage spells.
After this pick an Oracle that has powers or spells that synergize with your bloodline arcana (like Blackened Curse and Waves Oracle for Marid or Heavens for Serpentine) I'd also grab a metamagic feat (Rime spell?) and Spontaneous metafocus while you are building, and then do everything in your power to never come within arms' reach of a bad guy.
I played a character that began at 3rd lvl, took serpentine Sorc + Heavens Oracle, stayed fun even in the dregs, never made it close to Mystic Theurge.
Well, going back on topic...
First of all, Carrion Crown stops at level 16, which means that you'll at best be using the capstone power for a handful of encounters in the last chapter. So I wouldn't plan too much around that.
Wiz/Cleric is certainly the way to go - especially with those godly stats! For your wizard specialization I agree with Rufus in recommending Divination (Foresight), since it's one of the most front-loaded schools power-wise. You get to never be surprised and you get the extremely useful Prescience power (which is as good as it'll be right at wizard level 1). Only downside is you have to prepare 1 divination spell at each level - but as an MT you'll have slots to spare anyway.
Magical Knack is very good trait to take, obviously.
A word of warning on the Mystic Theurge path, though, speaking as someone who've played alongside one in a 1-20 campaign going over two RL years. While the class actually does get kind of powerful once you start getting high-level spells from both classes, it also becomes a book-keeping nightmare of epic proportions. Every rest cycle at high levels became a time sink because our MT would once again agonize over his spell selection for that day. I'm sure it can be fixed by having standard lists that you just deviate a little from, but it's something to keep in mind.
Thanks for the advice. I was aware of that book-keeping part, but I doubt I'll be too bothered by it.
Now the one thing I want to clear up is that what do I gain and what do I lose if I go MT instead of only taking Cleric levels?
Here's a crazy idea, given the heated discussion, have you considered a Witch/Cleric/Mystic Theurge?
Sure the Hex DC's will stop scaling, but like it has been said they already are as good as spells at low levels. Also, I think you'd really have a boatload of healing spells between the 2 classes, if that's what you want. Not to mention, even a gimped hex will give you something to fall back on when you eventually run out of spells.
I really can't advise that. If you're gonna go Witch, stay Witch and make the hexes stick. If your hex DC's are only functioning as a 3rd level witch, then they really would be kinda bad by the mid-teen levels. Will saves aren't super low at that point, so will-based SoL's have to be an "all in" type of deal (though they'd probably still be, on average, better than targeting Fort). Granted, Evil Eye remains relevant regardless (because they still get Evil Eye'd even if they make their save), so I guess you always have that one option. But yeah... if you want to hex, just be a full witch.
The boatload of healing overlap is also kind of a disadvantage of being Cleric/Witch together. You want to combine two lists that avoid overlap, not encourage it, since the idea of the MT is to get the best of both worlds. You also have to remember, you want to avoid having to heal because of how resource-intensive it is to be playing reactively in combat. So a build that helps establish crowd-control and damage prevention is paramount. A witch can do this extremely well as a single-classed character, but when you start multiclassing into a prestige class... it loses its punch, as you'll be lacking patron spells, having delayed access to other witch spells, and your best hexes just won't have the staying power of a true witch.
Better off taking 3 levels of wizard (or even 4 of Sorc) if you're going to do MT. A witch needs to stay a witch.
As a theurge you could start Witch 3 with Extra Hex and take Fortune, Cackle, and Evil Eye, and that alone gives you enough actions to be useful levels 1-20. Then add spells and cleric domains (Travel and Liberation?) and you're set.
Guess I'll stay pure Cleric then.
I realy want MT to work... But your realy have to look at what you need in the party... Inquisitor/gunsliner, a Gunslinger and a Monk / Sorcerer (Zen Archer + Empyreal Bloodline)... This pary of mutts. Mutts work well together.
You need healer/condition remover and blaster.... To me that is a Alchemist.
Most poeple build their PC like that are building race cars. To go fast as they can... MT are no race car they are Box Truck big slow but they can haul stuff and built to do many things. Their strenght is their versatiilty. You far the most part AP or Socity type play they expet you to have ablity X or Y at level X or Y. In a home game this can be adjusted by the DM. Cause they know your abiltys and can adjust challenges to meet your skill set.
In my point of view. True MT build.
MT best build Wiz/Cleric or Witch/Cleric.
MT 2nd best build Sor/Cleric or Wiz/Oracle or Witch/Oracle
Why no Druid, Summoner, Bard, Magus or Inquistor ... The lost of class abitly and pet not advanceing is to much for small gain of spells.
Do not take bonded item but take Familiar. So you get Adept channel feat to heal with lost of channeel not raiseing in power.