Mystic Theurge


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Personally, I really like Mystic Theurge. Nobody can beat you when it comes to support via direct casting and item creation. Some friends and I decided to speculate/one-shot our characters up to epic levels back in 3rd. I became the divine help desk. "We need spell X!" "Of course. Just one moment." The best though was being given unlimited access to the kingdoms treasury for item creation. "The city of Y is rebelling!" "Orbital bombardment platform coming online. Is there anyone we need transported out?"

Plus, assuming your DM is reasonable and lets you continue advancing the class past lvl10, you get the best 20th level ability ever: Miraculous Wish! Where is you god now?!


I like Mystic Theurge, too--but my group is pretty low-risk for encounters, nobody really optimizes, so you don't need a high-power build (Not saying optimization is bad--it all depends on the games you're in). I like the flavour, and the utility, but it doesn't look like an optimizer's class to me.

I think the class's usefulness depends on the rest of the party--it can fill in as both an arcane and divine caster, but not quite as good as a pure arcane or pure divine. If you've got both an arcane and a divine caster already, you might not be too useful, unless you're going with, say, cleric/wizard when the only other casters are rangers and bards, or something--you don't want to be trying to fill rolls that are already filled.

Looking at the class, buffing, support, and healing seems to be where it shines, because those can work better at lower Caster Level than more offensive spells. If you're using it for attacks, I'd say go for things that don't give saves, because the DC's will be a bit lower.

And the trait whose name I can't remember that lets you boost a caster level for one casting class by two, to a max of your character level? I'd say that one's pretty important to have; it can take you from, say, casting as Cleric 13 and wizard 17, to Cleric 13 and Wizard 19


A Magus 6or7 / Cleric3 / MT Can be REALLY nasty.


Icyshadow wrote:

Now, what kind of Mystic Theurge would you make from a Cleric with the following stats?

Strength 15
Dexterity 16
Constitution 15
Intelligence 19
Wisdom 18
Charisma 14

The group where I am considering to make an MT consists of an Inquisitor, a Gunslinger and a Monk / Sorcerer (Zen Archer + Empyreal Bloodline).

Not sure how optimized your party is, but Carrion Crown is indeed a rather hard AP so I would strongly advice against a Mystic Theurge. I don't recommend a Witch either, because there are many enemies that are immune to mind affecting and a Witch also lacks defensive spells.

If your choice to play a cleric is not set in stone, I would recommend an Alchemist. You could tank pretty well, dish out good damage with the feral discovery, throw bombs to cover swarms and other nasty stuff and with Infusion you can brew restoration extracts for your party. You also get a lot of skills and the class fits really well in the AP. I'm GM Carrion Crown right now, and the Alchemist in my party really shines.

If you want to stay Cleric, I'd go with the Evangelist Archetype and summons. Bardsong would be awesome for a Gunslinger and a Zen Archer, and your summons can do some tanking.


RumpinRufus I understand you like the class and thats fine. However as it pointed out it has huge issues you choose to overlook that make it as far as I can tell so one dimensional and vulnerable that its unplayable. Frankly some of your replies are humorously wrong and show you have a limited understanding of the game and casters as a whole. For lack of forever to go on about this so let me clarify on just a few of the things mentioned:

- That teleport you mentioned is hardly a 5ft step (10 ft of teleport if you dont go higher in wizard). Thats instant release from grapples, binding, through bars, through walls if you can see under a door or through a window, to add to the end of movement. AS A SWIFT ACTION. This is literally one of the most powerful abilities of any class period.

- Yes Wish (or miracle) is a bread and butter spell. A must have at end game. As is invisibility. contingency, time stop, Permanency, antimagic field, prismatic <everything>, polymorph any object (is that a witches theme?), Mage's Disjunction (isnt you duty to debuff?),Etherealness, Gate, Dismissal/banishment, Dimensional Lock, Forbiddance, Spell Immunity, etc the list goes on. Even the stuff you can do is limited (such as the ability to res more than once per day)

- Hexes and most of your spell list is trumped by Protection from Evil/Chaos/etc. Given some wizard and cleric spell lists are also effected but no so deeply.

- Everything Evil Eye, Cackle, Slumber, and Misfortune can do you can do with other spells, create spells, or replicate EXACTLY with limited wish. Permas-slumber nice? Poof for 1500gp its done. Forced Reincarnation? poof its done. I don't even have to limit myself to limited number of hexes like you do! You can do that with limited wish right.. oh wait you can't.

- Can you use metamagic rods, staves, dweomer dust, etc to bump up hexes like we can spells? No? :( Sure you can with witch spells but hexes r 4 l33t right?

- MT abilty lets them cast three spells round one, two are a high DC with SR penetration. Stacked with spell perfection thats pretty much an autowin. Hardly just a "nice to have" its a game breaker. Certainly worth giving up one spell level for dual spell progression with ability to steal slots from the other class.

- But why do we need three spells in one round when it only takes one to stop a witch? Quicken Harm for my familiar to drop on yours (natural AC on that pet really help here huh?) for.. wait for it.. instant death of your pet and loss of your casting. Got a full round action to roll on the ground laughing at you for this HUGE vulnerability. But who even needs to try to kill your pet when its rockin 1d3/lvl hits in highly likely AoE dmg zones. One bad fireball = no spells for the day.

I could go on but i think you get it: this class is weak past early levels. Sure on MT you have to give up a spell level (what prestige class do you not give up something or have a limitation) but what you get back is huge versatility. I even think with the added buffs and ability to heal (imagine how annoying it is to watch your enemy spamming quicken heals on themselves and still casting offense wizard spells back the same round) that pound for pound a MT could go toe to toe with as well as any pure wizard or cleric. You'd be a spell level down you dont always use the very highest spells you can cast every round so never the less can be worth it. With that said anyone thinking about it if build well it can be a very powerful build.


Grayfeather wrote:
- That teleport you mentioned is hardly a 5ft step (10 ft of teleport if you dont go higher in wizard). Thats instant release from grapples, binding, through bars, through walls if you can see under a door or through a window, to add to the end of movement. AS A SWIFT ACTION. This is literally one of the most powerful abilities of any class period.

A swift action that automatically ends your turn makes it far less useful. Yes, you can escape a grapple, but you just spent your entire turn doing that and you're still within 5-foot-step range of the creature that was grappling you. Btw, you need to be at least a 4th level wizard before it gets you 10 feet, which would delay your MT progression. To get through bars and things, the ability is useful, but it is not "one of the most powerful abilities of any class". If you could actually take an action after using it, then it would be an excellent ability.

Quote:
- Yes Wish (or miracle) is a bread and butter spell. A must have at end game. As is invisibility. contingency, time stop, Permanency, antimagic field, prismatic <everything>, polymorph any object (is that a witches theme?), Mage's Disjunction (isnt you duty to debuff?),Etherealness, Gate, Dismissal/banishment, Dimensional Lock, Forbiddance, Spell Immunity, etc the list goes on. Even the stuff you can do is limited (such as the ability to res more than once per day)

I guess we have different definitions of "bread and butter". Shield is a bread-and-butter spell, Wish is a truffle-and-caviar spell. The simple fact is in most campaigns the spell Wish is never cast. Permanency, Contingency, Gate, and Forbiddance are completely non-issues because you can just as easily use scrolls. As far as the rest, all you are saying is "a 15+ level wizard is more powerful than anyone else." Well thank you Captain Obvious! The price you pay is that you suck in the early game, when witches are awesome. Witches are consistently powerful levels 1-20, whereas wizards have an exponential power curve.

Quote:
- Hexes and most of your spell list is trumped by Protection from Evil/Chaos/etc. Given some wizard and cleric spell lists are also effected but no so deeply.

I don't understand what point you were intending to make here. The only way Protection from X interacts with hexes is giving you a +2 resistance bonus to saves. In other words, it does nada, because it doesn't stack with your cloak.

Quote:
- Everything Evil Eye, Cackle, Slumber, and Misfortune can do you can do with other spells, create spells, or replicate EXACTLY with limited wish. Permas-slumber nice? Poof for 1500gp its done. Forced Reincarnation? poof its done. I don't even have to limit myself to limited number of hexes like you do! You can do that with limited wish right.. oh wait you can't.

Congrats, you just spent a 7th level spell and 1,500 gp on an ability that the witch gets at first level and can do an unlimited number of times per day. Is your intended argument that a 13th level wizard is better than a 1st level witch? Because on that point we agree.

Quote:
- Can you use metamagic rods, staves, dweomer dust, etc to bump up hexes like we can spells? No? :( Sure you can with witch spells but hexes r 4 l33t right?

You said it yourself, you can use all these things with witch spells. I'm not saying that witches should only use hexes and never cast their spells.

Quote:
- MT abilty lets them cast three spells round one, two are a high DC with SR penetration. Stacked with spell perfection thats pretty much an autowin. Hardly just a "nice to have" its a game breaker. Certainly worth giving up one spell level for dual spell progression with ability to steal slots from the other class.

Again, once per day. And the spells you cast are still 1-2 levels behind what you could be casting. I'd rather cast two 7th level spells than three 5th level spells.

Quote:
But why do we need three spells in one round when it only takes one to stop a witch? Quicken Harm for my familiar to drop on yours (natural AC on that pet really help here huh?) for.. wait for it.. instant death of your pet and loss of your casting. Got a full round action to roll on the ground laughing at you for this HUGE vulnerability. But who even needs to try to kill your pet when its rockin 1d3/lvl hits in highly likely AoE dmg zones. One bad fireball = no spells for the day.

Rolling on the ground laughing at how silly you were to forget that Harm can't kill anything?

You seem ill-informed, because losing a familiar in no way stops a witch from casting spells, at all. If you use a spell to target a witch's familiar, you just wasted a spell. She can't prepare spells without one, but she is 100% as effective in that combat as she would be with her familiar alive.

Besides, if you are scared about it dying there are tons of ways to stop that. Keep it in your backpack. Leave it at home. It automatically gets Improved Evasion, so Fireball is more likely than not to do nothing against it.

Quote:
I could go on but i think you get it: this class is weak past early levels. Sure on MT you have to give up a spell level (what prestige class do you not give up something or have a limitation) but what you get back is huge versatility. I even think with the added buffs and ability to heal (imagine how annoying it is to watch your enemy spamming quicken heals on themselves and still casting offense wizard spells back the same round) that pound for pound a MT could go toe to toe with as well as any pure wizard or cleric. You'd be a spell level down you dont always use the very highest spells you can cast every round so never the less can be worth it. With that said anyone thinking about it if build well it can be a very powerful build.

Once you hit level 16, Mystic Theurge is powerful. Before that, it's a versatile caster that is seriously lacking in power.

Most campaigns never hit level 16 (or if they do, it's only for a few sessions.) For the entire game, you'll be playing at a handicap in order to get your once-a-day capstone ability.

Are MTs useful? Yes, they are great utility casters and very versatile. Are they powerful? No, not before their capstone ability (which kicks in at level 16 at the earliest) and even then they get one round per day in which they can nova. A 16th level character should be able to do so much more than squeeze in a single round where they get three 7th level spells (instead of two 8th level spells.)


There are RAW (IMO) ways to get into Theurge earlier than level 7, which makes it much more viable. I subscribe to the interpretation it is possible at level 5, possibly even level 4.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mja6?Early-Entry-Mystics-Theurge#1

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nye3?Entrance-into-Mystic-Theurge#29

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Magyc wrote:

There are RAW (IMO) ways to get into Theurge earlier than level 7, which makes it much more viable. I subscribe to the interpretation it is possible at level 5, possibly even level 4.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mja6?Early-Entry-Mystics-Theurge#1

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nye3?Entrance-into-Mystic-Theurge#29

Wow, that's... pretty solid. You can even use spontaneous casters, so you could do 2 levels each of Sorcerer and Oracle, as long as you find a 2nd-level spell on both spell lists to use Magical Lineage on. I'm impressed. Heighten Spell is worth the investment for that, and if either of your classes use prepared spells you can get Preferred Spell without any extra investment. Nicely done.


I'm pretty sure the person who keeps hating on the witch either hasn't played one(or seen one played) by anyone who knows how or his group doesn't know that PF changed a lot of spells a lot of what he's saying seems to be assumptions based on 3.5 spells and the idea that all hexes can be shut down by Prot seems to really show it


Magyc wrote:

There are RAW (IMO) ways to get into Theurge earlier than level 7, which makes it much more viable. I subscribe to the interpretation it is possible at level 5, possibly even level 4.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mja6?Early-Entry-Mystics-Theurge#1

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nye3?Entrance-into-Mystic-Theurge#29

The Heighten Spell/Magical Lineage trick does not work:

Heighten Spell:
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.

Magical Lineage:
Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell’s final adjusted level.

Magical Lineage causes the spell to be treated as 1 lower, so a 1st level spell Heightened to 2nd level with Magical Lineage reverts back to a 1st level spell. Heighten and Magical Lineage cancel each other out, they don't improve each other.

The Candle of Invocation could possibly work, but only if your GM allows you to level up during the 4 hours when it is active.


The Mystic Theurge really needs to be made into a base class. I've seen (and made) several adaptations. The central point is
4 levels of wizard casting is approximately equal to 3 levels of cleric casting + 3 levels of wizard casting. Flavor to taste with class abilities, and be careful not to make your MT base class TOO tempting for a 1 level dip (a 2 level dip is fine since you can dip wizard 1 and cleric 1 to get pretty much everything on your personal 'spell list').


galahad2112 wrote:
A Magus 6or7 / Cleric3 / MT Can be REALLY nasty.

I hadn't thought of using a Magus for the arcane side - that way, the Theurge can still wear armor. Have you seen this done? How well did it work?

rashiakas wrote:

I don't recommend a Witch either, because there are many enemies that are immune to mind affecting and a Witch also lacks defensive spells.

Carrion Crown's got a lot of undead, right?

I'm sitting out Greyfeather being Wrong On The Internet, but I have to report that this is sadly true - Undead are immune to about 90% of a witch's best tricks, unless you're playing a Gravewalker or have one of the undead-themed patrons.


Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Undead are immune to about 90% of a witch's best tricks, unless you're playing a Gravewalker or have one of the undead-themed patrons.

They are not immune to Misfortune + Cackle.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
RumpinRufus wrote:
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Undead are immune to about 90% of a witch's best tricks, unless you're playing a Gravewalker or have one of the undead-themed patrons.
They are not immune to Misfortune + Cackle.

True (an inexperienced GM I had almost ragequit out of frustration because of Misfortune + Cackle). However, Arbane's point that the high volume of undead will hinder your average witch is also true.


RumpinRufus

- Swift action teleport: With one feat (Dimensional Agility) you can take it whenever you like without ending your turn. The comment about its power to do with how its used outside of a MT build. Again you're comparing a prestige class to an alternate class, its not the same. Never the less I'd trade anything on your advanced hex list for this anyday.

- On spells I mentioned landmark spells, shall I go to the lower levels? Ok, how about Prestidigitation, awesome 0 level spell. Ghost Sound, a must with silent image which you also don't have. Shield (which you mentioned as bread and butter), Color Spray, True Strike, Shocking Grasp, Vanish, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Missle, this is just some of the 1st levels without even looking on the cleric side. Two i mentioned before invisibility and contingency aren't high level and fall in the "things i want to have so I dont have to roll a new character midlevel" kind of like Resilient Sphere which you also don't have.

Well Captain Obvious if you don't make it to high levels cause your died already you're going to wish you were cause literally you have worse high level spells than any other class. I mean rangers, bards, and paladins are looking at you going "Dude that sucks". I dont know about you but most like to work towards a solid power base at the high levels, I don't see it with the witch.

The only spell ever I've looked at the witch list and thought "hey i might use that" is ill omen, largely because its crazy broken and banned by most GMs as a spam tool for a cheap persistent MM replacement with a 2nd caster.

- On limited wish I didn't say it was practical, or that i would replicate the worthless hexes, only that i have the option to do it and you don't.

- You can't use wizard scrolls cause the spells aren't on you list:

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The user must have the spell on her class list

If you want to try your limited ranks in UMD to roll 20 + caster level and chance a mishap go right ahead. You can't even cast divine spells cause you're arcane so thats out the window.

- "Again, once per day. And the spells you cast are still 1-2 levels behind what you could be casting. I'd rather cast two 7th level spells than three 5th level spells." Right because those 5th level spells are worthless? A 5th level spell like Feeblemind cast half a dozen times (remember you can cannibalize from the divine slots and get bonus spells on that side too) with say a persistent MM rod is nothing to worry about cause those 7th levels spells are auto-win right? Riiight.

- You seem ill informed on your own class "Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar". Many posts have made it clear a dead familiar means no access to those spells (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m90i?Witches-and-backup-familiars). That black cat isn't a spellbook, it contains the spells. When its lost so are your spells.

- On the Harm example i saved you the mechanics of using a standard to finish the deed with literally a 1st level wand of magic missile but I guess i have to spell it out for you.
"A witch must commune with her familiar each day to prepare her spells." so no leaving you pet at home if on the road and besides what good RP is it to leave your pet, the source of your power, where it can be kidnapped or easily killed? Who would give up the nice bonuses, feat, and powers a familiar imparts? And btw that backpack is still subject to AoE spells, and other nastiness such as being stolen right off you. I'd think a little harder on that subject.

-On the Protection from Evil post you might want to read up on how that spell works as "against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person)." Many of the hexes you so love would fall under this protection.

Anyway we've went back on forth on this and its not going to change your mind. This started because you trashed the MT, said witch is the way to go, its super powerful. I've pretty much proved without a shadow of a doubt thats not true. Is it as worthless as I think, well probably not but its certainly not the powerhouse you mentioned. With MT you're getting more spells per day, more versatility, more class options and a pretty nice end game. Sure you get some 9th level later but who cares. Its how you use good spells to their fullest, not an arms race that who gets X first auto-wins.


So, I hate prepared casters, and I tend to prefer focusing on only one attribute. If I did a Mystic Theurge, I'd go one of two ways:

Oracle/Sorcerer
Cleric (or I guess, Druid, it doesn't really matter)/Empyreal Sorcerer

I'd almost certainly go for the first, though. I'd be a Heaven's Oracle to get Awesome Display, so I could actually be effective in combat using low level spells for quite some time. Since it's Carrion Crown, I'd be an Undead bloodline Sorcerer so I can make sure my Color Spray trick works.


Grayfeather wrote:


- You seem ill informed on your own class "Familiars store all of the spells that a witch knows, and a witch cannot prepare a spell that is not stored by her familiar". Many posts have made it clear a dead familiar means no access to those spells (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2m90i?Witches-and-backup-familiars). That black cat isn't a spellbook, it contains the spells. When its lost so are your spells.

'prepare' != 'cast'

Dude, you're being wrong on the internet again. Stop that. Unless you've got an official ruling that a witch loses all spellcasting when their familiar dies, I think you've VERY badly misinterpreting things.

Grayfeather wrote:
-On the Protection from Evil post you might want to read up on how that spell works as "against any spells or effects that possess or exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment [charm] effects and enchantment [compulsion] effects, such as charm person, command, and dominate person)." Many of the hexes you so love would fall under this protection.

I see Charm and Waxen Image as possibly stopped by Protection from (Whatever). Evil Eye, Ice Tomb, Misfortune and all the other bread-and butter hexes should work just fine.

Did a witch use the Cook People hex on a relative of yours or something? You do seem to be nursing an irrational dislike of them above and beyond 'not as powerful as wizards'.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Magyc wrote:

There are RAW (IMO) ways to get into Theurge earlier than level 7, which makes it much more viable. I subscribe to the interpretation it is possible at level 5, possibly even level 4.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mja6?Early-Entry-Mystics-Theurge#1

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nye3?Entrance-into-Mystic-Theurge#29

The Heighten Spell/Magical Lineage trick does not work:

** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Magical Lineage causes the spell to be treated as 1 lower, so a 1st level spell Heightened to 2nd level with Magical Lineage reverts back to a 1st level spell. Heighten and Magical Lineage cancel each other out, they don't improve each other.

The Candle of Invocation could possibly work, but only if your GM allows you to level up during the 4 hours when it is active.

That is a good argument, but I think the term "adjusted" means what Omelite discusses here:

"Magical Lineage does not lower the ACTUAL level of the spell, it only lowers the ADJUSTED level of the spell. So you'd be casting a level 2 spell with an adjusted level of 1. "

I don't think Magical Lineage can "cancel out" Heightened spell, but I do concede that the majority of thread participants have gone with your interpretation in earlier threads.


The loss of a familiar for a witch is no different than a wizard losing his spell book. Actually losing the book is worse because you have to recopy all those spells when someone burns your book and the witch performs a ritual and all the spells are back.

Protection stops 2-3 hexes tops out of over 30 hexes and most of those aren't the ones that really fits the witches strength the debuffer. Also you and these DMs ban one of their most powerful spells and then complain its weak. I get it the class plays completely differently than what you think an arcane caster plays like so you think its bad. You've gotten almost nothing about right about the class including thinking witches are slamming charm hex IMO one of their worst abilities and then the familiar thing just shows you have no idea about the witch class.


proftobe wrote:
The loss of a familiar for a witch is no different than a wizard losing his spell book. Actually losing the book is worse because you have to recopy all those spells when someone burns your book and the witch performs a ritual and all the spells are back.

I _wish_ that were the case. As it stands, the new familiar only has a few spells per level, plus patron spells. Thankfully, the Ultimate Equipment book give us the Stone Familiar item, which acts as a backup drive.

proftobe wrote:
I get it the class plays completely differently than what you think an arcane caster plays like so you think its bad. You've gotten almost nothing about right about the class including thinking witches are slamming charm hex IMO one of their worst abilities and then the familiar thing just shows you have no idea about the witch class.

Yeah, pretty much this.


off the top of my head, i'd go for:

the "necromancer"-type necro wizard / undead lord cleric,

or an empyreal sorcerer (maybe with the seeker AT tacked on as well) / cleric and focus wis, which is slightly slower than wizard/cleric but keeps everything on just one casting stat (also the mix of prepared, spontaneous, and semi-spontaneous domain casting may come in handy),

or maybe an elf ancient lorekeeper oracle (lore mystery) / sorcerer (any bloodline not called arcane or emypreal) and focus CHA (hooray sidestep secret), pick up eldritch heritage feats if there's a particular bloodline powers im aiming for, like arcane--basically cherrypicking lots and lots of spells to make up for the overall lower level available.

though, this is right out of mind, so im not ACTUALLY sure how feasible those lower two would be.

Arbane the Terrible wrote:
proftobe wrote:
The loss of a familiar for a witch is no different than a wizard losing his spell book. Actually losing the book is worse because you have to recopy all those spells when someone burns your book and the witch performs a ritual and all the spells are back.

I _wish_ that were the case. As it stands, the new familiar only has a few spells per level, plus patron spells. Thankfully, the Ultimate Equipment book give us the Stone Familiar item, which acts as a backup drive.

proftobe wrote:
I get it the class plays completely differently than what you think an arcane caster plays like so you think its bad. You've gotten almost nothing about right about the class including thinking witches are slamming charm hex IMO one of their worst abilities and then the familiar thing just shows you have no idea about the witch class.
Yeah, pretty much this.

i hear the hostelling (sp?) enchant for armor makes people with familiars' lives much easier once they can afford to get it.

Dark Archive

Grayfeather wrote:
Gerald wrote:

As I say every time someone mentions a MT, look at playing a Witch instead. To me, the Witch is what the MT should have been, plus hexes.

Witch is an awful class. Vs MT you give up full arcane and cleric list, dual spells bonuses, the ability to switch slots between classes, and perhaps the most overpowered lvl 10 power of a prestige class by breaking the action economy. On MT all you give up is a spell level behind pure arcane/divine which can easily be offset with MM rods. Sure if you are trying to out damage the two handed fighter in your group thats not going to happen but your utility/buff/debuff/summon options are astronomical and enough slots to do them all. The fact you can get specialist and two cleric domains while increasing both classes is very nice.

But go Witch instead? For what, a few low DC hexes and a piss-poor spell list (no Heal, Harm, Time stop, Wish, etc etc etc)? No cleric domains or specialist options? Are you serious? Witch is one of the most overrated, one dimensional classes of all time and bad flavor to boot.

Worst. Advice. Ever.

I have seen a high level witch in play, and they can be almost as good as wizard with some healing to boot. I gurantee that a single classed witch would be much more powerful than a gimped multiclassed mystic theurge.


AndIMustMask wrote:
i hear the hostelling (sp?) enchant for armor makes people with familiars' lives much easier once they can afford to get it.

That might help - personally, I just chose a rat who could stay in a pocket where nobody's tempted to take potshots at it.


Arbane the Terrible wrote:
AndIMustMask wrote:
i hear the hostelling (sp?) enchant for armor makes people with familiars' lives much easier once they can afford to get it.
That might help - personally, I just chose a rat who could stay in a pocket where nobody's tempted to take potshots at it.

ah, the old pocketfrog trick. i thought they can still get maimed by AoE spells aimed at you.


Edit: I started a new thread for the witch talk.


Tom S 820 wrote:
Why no Druid ... The lost of class abitly and pet not advanceing is to much for small gain of spells.

No Druid? Pet not advancing? Heaven forbid that a Druid takes a domain instead, and not have to deal with that problem. Heaven also forbid acknowledging that the Druid spell list is actually pretty darn good, so using this strategy is quite valid if you want your MT to be able to use the nicer Druid spells. Sheesh.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
@Rumpus: Why are you still arguing with Greyfeather? He's only going to ignore the points that he can't argue against while continuing to assert false statements. I still laugh every time he says a Witch can't cast Heal or Harm. Just let him be the one person in the entire community who has absolutely no idea how the class works.


AndIMustMask wrote:

off the top of my head, i'd go for:

the "necromancer"-type necro wizard / undead lord cleric,

or an empyreal sorcerer (maybe with the seeker AT tacked on as well) / cleric and focus wis, which is slightly slower than wizard/cleric but keeps everything on just one casting stat (also the mix of prepared, spontaneous, and semi-spontaneous domain casting may come in handy),

or maybe an elf ancient lorekeeper oracle (lore mystery) / sorcerer (any bloodline not called arcane or emypreal) and focus CHA (hooray sidestep secret), pick up eldritch heritage feats if there's a particular bloodline powers im aiming for, like arcane--basically cherrypicking lots and lots of spells to make up for the overall lower level available.

though, this is right out of mind, so im not ACTUALLY sure how feasible those lower two would be.

Arbane the Terrible wrote:
proftobe wrote:
The loss of a familiar for a witch is no different than a wizard losing his spell book. Actually losing the book is worse because you have to recopy all those spells when someone burns your book and the witch performs a ritual and all the spells are back.

I _wish_ that were the case. As it stands, the new familiar only has a few spells per level, plus patron spells. Thankfully, the Ultimate Equipment book give us the Stone Familiar item, which acts as a backup drive.

proftobe wrote:
I get it the class plays completely differently than what you think an arcane caster plays like so you think its bad. You've gotten almost nothing about right about the class including thinking witches are slamming charm hex IMO one of their worst abilities and then the familiar thing just shows you have no idea about the witch class.
Yeah, pretty much this.
i hear the hostelling (sp?) enchant for armor makes people with familiars' lives much easier once they can afford to get it.

Two things I will not change are the character being a Tiefling and starting out as a Cleric (or Necromancer) of Pharasma.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Join a Spellcasting Guild (Inner Sea Magic), then you can be all powerful, like me. In conjunction with certain traits, it allows you full spellcasting progression in both classes, a feature of guild membership that you can earn as early as 7th-level.


What's the closest guild in Ustalav's proximity?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
What's the closest guild in Ustalav's proximity?

I think that's something you will have to ask your GM. "Spellcasting guild" is a generic guild type, not a specific guild (like the Fleshwarpers). Therefore, I imagine you can find them anywhere you can find large numbers of spellcasters, such as most large cities.


And a small update on the party composition.

The Zen Archer / Sorcerer I mentioned plans to focus more on the Monk levels. Does this make Mystic Theurge a more viable option, or should I swap from Cleric to Necromancer (or should I just stick with a Cleric like I originally planned to)? The main thing is that my character belongs in the priesthood of Pharasma, and some anti-undead Necromancers are included. The Inquisitor can always use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds if I change it, and a tiefling gains a +2 to Intelligence anyway.


@ IcyShadow

I have not played one, but I've seen a few builds that look pretty solid.
Basically, the gist of it is that you're playing a magus that has a divine side, rather than an even split. If, as I presume from your very recent post, you are going tiefling, It really just screams "Please make a Magus!" to me... Especially if you are looking for that witchy-flavor, as some others have suggested is good, since Hexcrafter works well. You don't really care about MAD issues, because of your amazing stat array:

Strength 15
Dexterity 16
Constitution 15
Intelligence 19
Wisdom 18
Charisma 14

Although, if I am correct in assuming that this array is after racial mods, you may want to swap your dex or str for charisma. Your Con, Int and Wis are right where I would put them, but the only thing the cha gets you is another channel energy, which will cap at 2d6. I'd take an extra point of AC, reflex saves and attack bonus, or at least the attack bonus and some damage.

If it were me, I'd place my stats:

Strength 16
Dexterity 16
Constitution 15
Intelligence 19
Wisdom 18
Charisma 13

and take Armor of the Pit as my first level feat. Even skimping on armor, wearing studded leather for lv.1, you'll still have an 18 AC, and that will only improve. Your fort and will saves will also be really good. Also, this way you don't have to be a dervish magus ;)


The flavor of my character is the thing that stops me from making a Magus*.

And yeah, the Sorcerer (Empyreal bloodline) / Zen Archer is taking 4 levels of Sorcerer.

* = That and my lack of interest in the class, I guess. I've always had more interest in the Eldritch Knight.


Just for the fun of it: how about paladin/magus(or bard)/mt? ;-)
Not a powerful caster, but survivable and unusual for sure :-P


I already said that this character's backstory has already been decided and will affect my decisions.

Maybe some day I'll play in some really weird campaign and make a Paladin / Magus / Mystic Theurge...


Icyshadow wrote:
The Inquisitor can always use a Wand of Cure Light Wounds if I change it, and a tiefling gains a +2 to Intelligence anyway.

There are 5 different Tiefling options with a bonus to Wisdom instead of Intelligence. You should take one of those.

Additionally, you're really into the idea of being in the Church of Pharasma for flavor, and that's awesome. But why do you have to be an actual Cleric (mechanically) to have the flavor of being in the Church of Pharasma?


My other option is being a Necromancer, since those are also members of the Church along with the Inquisitors. As for the Tiefling heritage, I've already made up my mind on her being a Daemon-spawn. And like I said in the first post, the DM house-ruled a removal of a Tiefling's racial penalty because they are supposed to be a mirror image of the Aasimar. I use the same rule, and I'm pretty sure I could convince any other DM candidate in my neighbourhood to do the same.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:

I already said that this character's backstory has already been decided and will affect my decisions.

Maybe some day I'll play in some really weird campaign and make a Paladin / Magus / Mystic Theurge...

Given how long it takes Paladins and Magi to get 2nd level spells, you'd have some issues. You'd also have to restrict yourself to the Magus armor restrictions to cast it's spells.


LazarX wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:

I already said that this character's backstory has already been decided and will affect my decisions.

Maybe some day I'll play in some really weird campaign and make a Paladin / Magus / Mystic Theurge...

Given how long it takes Paladins and Magi to get 2nd level spells, you'd have some issues. You'd also have to restrict yourself to the Magus armor restrictions to cast it's spells.

...which are less restrictive than the Sorcerer/Witch/Wizard restrictions.

But yeah, it's probably a bad idea to do Paladin and Magus. You could maybe get away with Inquisitor/Magus, but I still wouldn't recommend it. Mystic Theurge is just a bad idea all around, mechanically, until the upper teens when you get the capstone, that I would never suggest doing it with anyone but a full caster.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:
But yeah, it's probably a bad idea to do Paladin and Magus. You could maybe get away with Inquisitor/Magus, but I still wouldn't recommend it. Mystic Theurge is just a bad idea all around, mechanically, until the upper teens when you get the capstone, that I would never suggest doing it with anyone but a full caster.

I wouldn't call Mystic Theurge a "bad idea" it's just a path that can't be built on assumptions of raw power. It's not a power build path. It's a versatile path for the right kind of role, but not one for raw might.


LazarX wrote:
I wouldn't call Mystic Theurge a "bad idea" it's just a path that can't be built on assumptions of raw power. It's not a power build path. It's a versatile path for the right kind of role, but not one for raw might.

With that being said, having beyond a certain amount of versatility becomes moot for a large number of builds. Having options is nice, but when a noticeable amount of them are already significantly stronger options than others, the reward of extra options starts to diminish, very quickly.

The only hard advantage that I'd say the MT has at the end of the day is a greater number of total spells per day... most of which he'd probably still not need at the upper levels if he's optimized. MT is a great idea, it's just not executed well.


LazarX wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
But yeah, it's probably a bad idea to do Paladin and Magus. You could maybe get away with Inquisitor/Magus, but I still wouldn't recommend it. Mystic Theurge is just a bad idea all around, mechanically, until the upper teens when you get the capstone, that I would never suggest doing it with anyone but a full caster.
I wouldn't call Mystic Theurge a "bad idea" it's just a path that can't be built on assumptions of raw power. It's not a power build path. It's a versatile path for the right kind of role, but not one for raw might.

So, you agree that it's a bad idea, but dislike that I used the word "bad" instead of "weak" or "suboptimal" or some other word that means the build lacks power compared to other options? I didn't mean to suggest you couldn't play bad characters--I offered several ideas in this thread, in fact. You just ought to know what you're getting into.

And I still say that if you're stuck with lots of low level spells for a long time, you should be an Oracle and get Awesome Display. You'll have twice as many slots for Color Spray and can make use of Loathesome Veil, which becomes, well, awesome, with Awesome Display.

Grand Lodge

sorry icyshadow I just have to chime in here... Greyfeather you have gained my attention!!

Humphry B ManWitch is a 14th level Halfling witch in "PFS" with the Jinx trait. when he Evil Eyes an opponent they get -7 to all of their saving throws if they fail if not its -4 then -7 the next round. then any save or suck spell is almost certainly going to work so usually he takes out any opponent it two rounds... id like to see any wizard do that.

i personally enjoy flesh to stone, quickened ill omen and "phantasmal killer"
Humphry has taken out Great wyrm Dragons when the rest of the party were running in terror (pretty sure were meant to run away) but he is so over powered that in three rounds the dragon was a block of stone. (I icy prisoned it the second round)

easy way to get past the protection from spell is just be true neutral.

magic items = focus on things that make you immune to things as witches are as vulnerable as "wussy wizards". ring of freedom of movement. and necklace of adaptation..

in short wizard = universal good, Witch = Universal good. but they are not apples versus apples.

Greyfeather. until you play one and build it correctly you will not understand how powerful they really are. and you are completely wrong about not being able to cast spells without your familiar.. not to mention the many magical items that prevent your familiar from harm.. there is also the golden rule of not using your familiar in combat. = not targeted by DM. you obviously either are a "Jerk" or play with a DM that is a "Jerk" and therefore fail the "Dont be A Jerk Rule"


@ Icyshadow

Oh, sorry. I just now realized that I directed that build at you, when in reality I was responding to Arbane the Terrible.

Although I am glad to see that you're standing firm on your resolution to be a Cleric of Pharasma, I didn't know anything about the tiefling until your post about "the two things that I will not change are..."

Also, where in your original post did you say anything about a gm-approved variant tiefling with no penalty? I just read this thread twice and saw nothing of the sort until your very last post. Just confused, that's all. Hope your MT works out.


More witch talk in response to Humphry:
Humphry B ManWitch wrote:
Humphry B ManWitch is a 14th level Halfling witch in "PFS" with the Jinx trait. when he Evil Eyes an opponent they get -7 to all of their saving throws if they fail if not its -4 then -7 the next round. then any save or suck spell is almost certainly going to work so usually he takes out any opponent it two rounds... id like to see any wizard do that.

How exactly are you achieving this?

Halfling Jinx is a standard action that gives a -1 to saves. Even with the feats Bolster Jinx and Malicious Eye, your Evil Eye still only gives them a -5 to saves. How are you getting it to -7?

Also, why do you say if they make their save they get -4 and then -7 the next round? If they make their save they should get -2. If you try again next round, you could possibly get them to -5 if they fail their save this time (I'm assuming you also Cackle on the turn you initially Evil Eye them so the second one is easier to stick?)


galahad2112 wrote:

@ Icyshadow

Oh, sorry. I just now realized that I directed that build at you, when in reality I was responding to Arbane the Terrible.

Although I am glad to see that you're standing firm on your resolution to be a Cleric of Pharasma, I didn't know anything about the tiefling until your post about "the two things that I will not change are..."

Also, where in your original post did you say anything about a gm-approved variant tiefling with no penalty? I just read this thread twice and saw nothing of the sort until your very last post. Just confused, that's all. Hope your MT works out.

My apologies, it's a carry-over from a previous thread. I forgot to mention the fact in this one.


Oh, ok, no worries. Thanks for clarifying.


Hey guys at the risk of Threadcapping I was wondering if any of you might want to offer me some assistance, or advice on this bit of homebrew related to the MT: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pew8?Mystic-Theurge-as-a-Base-Class#1

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