Goblin Squad Member
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the problem i have is that people are equating killing people to steal their loot as a job. Its not. crafting is a job, merchanting is a job, killing orcs is a job. Killing another player to steal their loot is not a job, its being a criminal.
I would not afford criminal's much protection.
If you want a big ole free for all go out to the lawless areas and do your thing there. why would merchants and explorers go into lawless areas, rare mats. Put rare mats and such in the lawless areas. the reason for the rare mats in those areas is simple, its greater risk, so greater reward.
If someone wants to spend all their time in the lawful areas, they can, but they dont get as high reward.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've just finished an extremely high level dungeon and walk out wounded with out time to bind my brand new shiny extremely rare drop artifact and someone ganks me as I'm stuck in a loading screen. I've now lost an item I've spent months trying to get.
Do I
A) let it go?
B) Put a massive bounty on the bastage responsible and keep renewing it until the person understands the pain and suffering he has caused me and begs for mercy?I'm going to go with B.
After awhile he asks me for mercy to release him from this.
Do I
A) go yeah he's had enough
B) Demand that he get me the item he cost me.
C) Go hell no spend the rest of your life in eternal torment from my bounty.B and C are tough choices...
I'm an extremely vindictive person so I usually will go with C.
That does not mean someone after a few months or years can't convince me to drop the matter its just not going to be easy..Was I wrong?
Not in my opinion.There are times when putting a bounty on someone for the rest of thier existence is perfectly justifiable.
and if that's your playstyle, I don't see the problem. That will no doubt cut into your wallet... I'd personally just do it a few times (at minimum once, and probably a prayer to the Lady of the Grave) because it could become a money sink when eventually I never even see the guy, he stops bothering me, or does business with me to make up for it. I'd like to buy the finer things in life.
Also, nice to have a fallback plan in case my business goes awry.
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On that note, I still expect bandits, even with this system, will try and turn a profit. There's always that nice open field over there where either it takes a long time for (N)PCs to respond, if they do at all. The worst risk is your caravan of guards I hope you left town with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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further more, like said earlier, that merchant has to risk his entire inventory every time he goes out to get mats, or make deliveries, he has to hire guards to to hope to prevent you do not rob him, and further more, he has to pay for the bounty in the first place. With out this system he now becomes an easy target with no risk to you and all the risk to him, and hes paying out the neck to help limit his risk which in turn cuts into his profits so the advantage still goes to you with the infinite bounties in place because you have much less to lose then that merchant does.
The system is fair, to an extent, I agree it is not ideal but there really is no way for it to be ideal. now if you could pick pockets to lift an item off of him with out killing him there is no longer a fear of a bounty as you have to deal damage to the merchant.
Two points:
1) Its been made clear earlier killing someone only allows looting a random selection of their items not the entire inventory
2) Aside from picking pockets, if knocking unconscious and looting is a viable alternative to killing and avoids infinite bounties, many bandits may take that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Far as I know (I think one of the developers said it) that picking pockets from people still alive is out of the question. A similar case for stealing from PC houses, banks, and etc.
Probably a similar case for knocking someone unconscious: Why do that when you can just kill them and they will have to take a longer time to recoup and get revenge? Even worse, it would sound like you would have to wait a bit while you are unconscious (and if jail time was any indication, no one likes that.) Even if there is an option for nonlethal robberies, I don't think it should lessen or prevent you from bounties: At best, the alignment hit should be lessened, but you are still robbing and attacking someone unlawfully.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Even if there is an option for nonlethal robberies, I don't think it should lessen or prevent you from bounties: At best, the alignment hit should be lessened, but you are still robbing and attacking someone unlawfully.
Unlawful does not equate to Evil.
Unlawful acts should move you towards Chaotic on the Law/Chaos axis. It should not effect your Good/Evil status.
Killing, feasibly, would move you towards Evil on the Good/Evil axis.
further more, like said earlier, that merchant has to risk his entire inventory every time he goes out to get mats, or make deliveries, he has to hire guards to to hope to prevent you do not rob him, and further more, he has to pay for the bounty in the first place. With out this system he now becomes an easy target with no risk to you and all the risk to him, and hes paying out the neck to help limit his risk which in turn cuts into his profits so the advantage still goes to you with the infinite bounties in place because you have much less to lose then that merchant does.
The system is fair, to an extent, I agree it is not ideal but there really is no way for it to be ideal. now if you could pick pockets to lift an item off of him with out killing him there is no longer a fear of a bounty as you have to deal damage to the merchant.
Two points:
1) Its been made clear earlier killing someone only allows looting a random selection of their items not the entire inventory
2) Aside from picking pockets, if knocking unconscious and looting is a viable alternative to killing and avoids infinite bounties, many bandits may take that.
once the corpse is looted anything left in the husk is completely destroyed. Example: I died with 10 iron ore on me, a vorpal sword, and a suit of full plat, all in my bags, all un threaded as my threads had been used up on something more important. I keep my holy symbol of awesomeness cause it is threaded, the new armor i acquired is looted off my corpse, it was the only item the game mechanics allowed the killer to loot of me and to even know about, everything else in my inventory is now destroyed because someone other than me looted my corpse
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Goblin Squad Member
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once tyhe corpse is looted anything left in the husk is completely destroyed.
oh ... so bandits killing will make a small profit but the effect of large scale killing is to remove excess loot from the game as neither the original owner nor the bandit will get it. Cool game mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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oh ... so bandits killing will make a small profit but the effect of large scale killing is to remove excess loot from the game as neither the original owner nor the bandit will get it. Cool game mechanic.
once tyhe corpse is looted anything left in the husk is completely destroyed.
The game still isn't set in stone.
--As per the unlawful comment, it is chaotic+evil to kill and rob someone for any reason most of the time.
oh ... so bandits killing will make a small profit but the effect of large scale killing is to remove excess loot from the game as neither the original owner nor the bandit will get it. Cool game mechanic.
once tyhe corpse is looted anything left in the husk is completely destroyed.
its agrivating to be sure, but hey crap happens, it is definitely a cool mechanic to create supply and demand and to keep inflation down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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its agrivating to be sure, but hey crap happens, it is definitely a cool mechanic to create supply and demand and to keep inflation down.oh ... so bandits killing will make a small profit but the effect of large scale killing is to remove excess loot from the game as neither the original owner nor the bandit will get it. Cool game mechanic.
once tyhe corpse is looted anything left in the husk is completely destroyed.
Well it may also limit the arms race.
In most games everyone starts out with a shortsword and a wooden shield but a few months in even level ones have enchanted armor and talking demonic swords ... thanks to higher level guild mates with excess loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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oh ... so bandits killing will make a small profit but the effect of large scale killing is to remove excess loot from the game as neither the original owner nor the bandit will get it. Cool game mechanic.
once tyhe corpse is looted anything left in the husk is completely destroyed.
The game still isn't set in stone.
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As per the unlawful comment, it is chaotic+evil to kill and rob someone for any reason most of the time.
agreed
The point was robbing WITHOUT killing is really just unlawful and hence only chaotic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The point was robbing WITHOUT killing is really just unlawful and hence only chaotic.
I dunno, kinda depends on who you're robbing I would think - Rich evil merchants who like placing infinite bounties, or nuns carrying food to starving children?
It's chaotic by definition - it could be evil as well by circumstance (but I don't know how the game would define it).
In any case, it's a moot point as somewhere on the forums, Ryan has said that "non-leathal" [sic] damage is highly unlikely to be implemented.
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Goblin Squad Member
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agreedThe point was robbing WITHOUT killing is really just unlawful and hence only chaotic.
Stealing is pretty much evil as well as chaotic. You are taking something that doesn't belong to you (by force). It doesn't matter if you are killing, knocking them out, or even pick pocketing, it's still evil.
There are a few examples that are an exception, but I doubt there will be barely any (if any at all) in PFO.
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As a side note, I just realized another point to the "bounty griefing": It really seems like we are focusing on the case only one guy messes with a rich person. Suppose if the merchant has several people on his revenge list? I'm expecting people can and will be targeted several times by different people. It's going to pile up fast to keep a bounty on all of them, and then again, still the effort vs reward for bounty hunters.
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Have all the bounties you want. Have them last forever. It does not matter.
As a bandit, I will rob you if the opportunity presents itself.
As a bandit, I will give you a choice to hand over coin willingly.
As a bandit, I will kill you if you fail to comply, but let you go if you do.
As a bandit, I will laugh in the face of your bounty and welcome the challenge and the seekers of bounties.
As a bandit, I will not be stopped.
A bandit
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Goblin Squad Member
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The victim can be killed by the bounty target every chance they get, whether the victim places a bounty or not. So what is wrong with the victim having the opportunity to even the odds?
[snip]
All the system does is provide both sides with equal firepower. If they want to go all the way to mutually assured destruction, so be it. I just don't see that as griefing.
I would be totally fine with the bounty system as explained so far if this were true. But we know that there are many more systems designed to make RPKers have a bad time of it.
I'm not going to muddy up the thread with all my quotes, but I will link to a few of my posts on this subject. I hope that those who are serious about changing the system take a bit of time to read through my perhaps more precise critiques (I mean, more precise than "Infinite bounties are griefing!" vs "Infinite bounties are not griefing!"; I try to look at what bounties might accomplish as is, and what they could accomplish if their scope were adjusted).
TL;DR is the last link
Here's a massive post that details the mechanics that deter RPKing. I tried to split it up a bit so it wasn't a massive wall of text. It's as in-depth as I go, and I think I explain myself fully and clearly there. I followed it up with a short post of another mechanic that Ryan clued us into shortly after I wrote that one. Beware of that thread; it's 8 pages long with about 3 pages of actual discussion.
I agree that we want Chaotic or Evil characters. So far, LE and CG settlements will be viable (I hope only a small disadvantage to LG), while CE settlements with low reputation are destined to become the 'wretched hives of scum and villiany'. I was originally strongly against taking this direction in development, but my concerns were softened a little bit by new information and I resigned myself to the fact that more people would likely enjoy PFO if Random Player Killing was curbed at the extreme.
Either the bounty system OR the system of limiting settlements of different alignments and reputations won't have a *huge* impact on banditry (though any mechanic to penalize banditry would of course decrease it). Together, though, I do feel that it's putting a lot of strain on banditry and it is lumping 'acceptable' banditry together with less-desired activities like excessive Random Player Killing and even griefing.
Here's a short post on why I'd rather have alignment and reputation be the method through which this behavior is discouraged than bounties. Even shorter, alignment and reputation systems punish players that repeatedly engage in behavior, while bounties punish a player most for doing it the first or first ten times, and after that have little effect on the player's decisions.
Here's a TL;DR version of some of my points (linked in quoted text), followed by this post to clarify.
The bounty system as designed is a non-precise instrument to deter RPKing that gets weaker the more a person kills (1st bounty is a Big Deal, 10th... not so much). I believe the scope should be changed to more accurately target the specific unwanted behavior that many are posting about here. This also has the effect of showing new players a 'line in the sand' for what is acceptable, and giving veteran, 'honest' bandits a scope within which to operate and feel they are an important (and necessary) part of the community.
If bounties are only issued in the hex(es) adjacent to a settlement, then they act as a measure to protect new and casual players, while the playing field is leveled for veterans by the alignment & reputation systems and spawn point restrictions.
If bounties exist mostly to protect new and casual players, I think many of us will find the prospect of infinite bounties much more agreeable. I, for example, am totally fine with some guy that ventures next to a settlement to kill newbs/casuals getting bountied infinitely by them (likely, those same victims might not want to spend the effort/money on renewing bounties for a year) =)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You will already have the criminal flag on you so anyone can kill you with out repercussion and gain lawful alignment shifts and possibly good alignment shifts ( this is definitely how the flag system works).
Not arguing the point, cause well we don't have enough facts yet. But do you have a source about the alignment shifts? Barbarians and other characters might not want such a shift.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'll have some quotes in a bit, working on the *Criminal* flag for the wiki right now :)
Edited**
Ah found it.
The attacker gets a flag, labeling him a criminal. Anyone can kill him now without suffering Reputation or Alignment penalties, and killing him actually makes your Alignment more Lawful. Becoming Lawful is generally pretty hard to do, so people with the Criminal trait will be prized targets. Note that anyone who helps a person with the Criminal trait, such as healing them or buffing them, also gets the Criminal trait. It is infectious.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it will feel only marginally worse to be killed by a random passerby that you are not at war with than one that you are at war with. I also think that with or without the bounty system, you will die much more to those you are at war with than those you are not; those you are not at war with will be losing alignment, reputation, gear, skills, and spawn points, after all. They will have less opportunity and their opportunities won't be so good.
That said, I agree that it is a good thing to have near settlements, where new or casual players might be killed, who may feel the encounter was 'unfair', and rightly so. Make their recourse meaningful by restricting bounties to those areas and making them a powerful tool to deter that behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I view infinite bounties as griefing. I also see an infinite bounty only leading to more griefing.
Example: I'm a bandit, and I attack a rich merchant. He places an infinite bounty on me. Now I am faced with a dilemma, do I risk getting another infinite bounty from a different merchant or do I just grief the first merchant, until he is bled dry?
Or do I just rob poor merchants, to avoid the possibility of an infinite bounty?
Infinite bounties are a bad idea, loaded with unintended consequences.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I agree about infinite bounties without consequences being greifing. I HOPE that once they actually finalize the system they have some limiting functions on continuous bounties similar to things I mentioned here:
Basically things like, consecutive bounties without being killed again by the same person cost more money for each consecutive bounty. OR once you start making more and more bounties it starts costing reputation or maybe even start going into alignment hits.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is that infinate bounties should not be possible, I mean bounties have a cost, unless that person is like Trump they cannot afford all the bounties.
Anyway infinate bounties is not griefing, as in order to get a bounty placed on you you had to engage in criminal acts.
Its not like you can get a bounty by saying high to the merchant or crafting a sword or killing a dragon.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Avoiding a infinite bounty is easy: Don't kill people in the starting zones.
The ease of avoidance makes infinite punishment reasonable. And the way Ryan describes it, you will have to be a wealthy character to keep an infinite bounty.
Bounties aren't limited to starter zones. Expand that to don't kill anyone anywhere that has laws against killing people (which by the majority of the guilds being good and or lawful) is going to be a bigger area.
Also, from what I've read Bounties can be applied to anyone with a criminal flag that perpetrated a criminal act toward you. They've mentioned previously that you can be marked as a criminal for things like breaking loan contracts and other things.
I like the bounty system and I don't have a problem with infinite bounties IF there is some limiting factor on the ease of re-upping the bounty. IE higher price for consecutive re-up, maybe to the point of you start taking rep hits for continuously hitting someone with a bounty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@being
In that case if a PC kills another PC, then the bandit gets put in jail for 10 years, or he gets executed and cannot play that character again.
Come on. its simple. If you want to bandit/kill people in lawful areas, thats fine, but you better be prepared to pay the piper.
Bandit isnt a legit job like crafting or killing dragons. Bandits should be allowed. Bandits need to understand that there are risks to what they do and if they piss of the wrong person they will pay.
If you dont want someone to bounty you 10 times, guess what, dont kill them unlawfully.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Avoiding a infinite bounty is easy: Don't kill people in the starting zones.
The ease of avoidance makes infinite punishment reasonable. And the way Ryan describes it, you will have to be a wealthy character to keep an infinite bounty.
Bounties aren't limited to starter zones. Expand that to don't kill anyone anywhere that has laws against killing people (which by the majority of the guilds being good and or lawful) is going to be a bigger area.
Also, from what I've read Bounties can be applied to anyone with a criminal flag that perpetrated a criminal act toward you. They've mentioned previously that you can be marked as a criminal for things like breaking loan contracts and other things.
I like the bounty system and I don't have a problem with infinite bounties IF there is some limiting factor on the ease of re-upping the bounty. IE higher price for consecutive re-up, maybe to the point of you start taking rep hits for continuously hitting someone with a bounty.
To our current knowledge, the only way to get a bounty is to kill someone in NPC Warden protected territory, and NPC wardens will not be available to players.
Everywhere else, all we know is you can curse them and they get an attacker flag that may make them attackable by anyone.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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To our current knowledge, the only way to get a bounty is to kill someone in NPC Warden protected territory, and NPC wardens will not be available to players.
Everywhere else, all we know is you can curse them and they get an attacker flag that may make them attackable by anyone.
See below in bold for reference.
Breaking certain kinds of contracts can flag a character as a criminal.
Criminals will be ruthlessly pursued and killed when they commit criminal acts in areas under NPC settlement security.
If a member of a party commits a crime, the leader of the party will be informed and given a countdown timer to boot that party member. If the party member is not booted, the other members of the party will be given a countdown timer to quit the party. If you choose to stay in a party after the leader has decided to let a criminal stay, you'll be considered a criminal too.
If you attack someone unprovoked in a hex that is unclaimed or where murder is not set up as a Crime by the owning settlement, you will certainly get the Attacker flag and probably lose alignment and rep for killing the target. Attacker is likely to expire quickly out of combat, so you may be relatively safe from friends of the victim who show up after the deed is done. However, if murder is a Crime, you would also get the Criminal flag, which is likely to last much longer and allow players to hunt you down after the murder.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Although reading through the bounty stuff it does say
When you are murdered—that is, killed unlawfully—you will have the option to place a bounty on your killer's head.
So while probably not pertaining to criminals who break contracts or are made criminal by association (although that needs confirming). It still applies to players killed in hexs that have laws against murder, not only NPC settlements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was a reason law courts no longer can try you again for the same crime. It was unjust, and abused.
Since we can't actually imprison characters (players apparently don't like losing control of their characters for extended periods of time, go figure), what other means of long-term punishment do you suggest?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was a reason law courts no longer can try you again for the same crime. It was unjust, and abused.Since we can't actually imprison characters (players apparently don't like losing control of their characters for extended periods of time, go figure), what other means of long-term punishment do you suggest?
Put the character in the stocks for half a day? Though of course the player will just not bother logging in, or go off and watch a movie, until the punishment expires.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Valk I don't have time to find the thread right now, but in one or a few of those that were going after the Tramps blog, the wording was modified from the blog's "killing somebody where it is unlawful will get you a bounty" to something along the lines of "there will be some lawless wilderness areas set up where bounties will not apply"
I had previously thought that bounties would be applicable in 20-50% of hexes where settlements exerted influence and had laws, which made sense in order to make an open PvP sandbox game more palatable to those that don't like PvP.
Now, I am thinking that bounties will be applicable in 50-90% of hexes, making bounties common. I thought they were a great tool in my previous vision of how it would work. For anybody wondering, I went in-depth on why I thought this in my linked posts above.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Didn't read most of this. I think a the fact that the bounty system only activates in high sec areas is a cool idea. Bandits can still be bandits and cities are safe. What would be really cool I think is abilities that make it less likely that you trigger the system in high sec (like having a 40% chance you won't trigger it). So assassinations are possible but very risky.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry I have been absent from my own thread. I see this has devolved into another "What is Griefing" thread. To bring it back to what I intended it to be - it is about Players who choose to RP bad guys, not PKer's just to kill the enjoyment for others (those will be taken care of by GW), and what player organizations do about it.
Some players have asked that any player lead efforts also consider the use of infinite bounties as a form of abuse, particularly when used to keep punishing someone playing a bandit/highwayman/thief/assassin, etc... Sorry if my title didn't reflect this, that is my fault.
So should in-game, player run anti-abuse groups see infinite bounties as abuse and act accordingly to protect players who are legitimately playing evil or at least very chaotic characters? Let's forget the term griefing for now, as that will be something GW will be policing. It is potential abuse of a system and how PLAYER driven groups should see infinite bounties - are they in fact abuse, or justice? Even LG groups might find indefinite bounties to be rather harsh punishment for one killing.
NOTE: in all likelihood, infinite bounties are almost surely going to be limited by a simple thing - money. Only those who intend to abuse the system will be able to keep bounties up for an indefinite time by working with the person or group he/she uses to carry out the bounty, as I discussed in my OP. That I would term griefing and is something GW should address, so let's leave it out here in this thread until someone from GW clarifies where they stand on such actions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now, I am thinking that bounties will be applicable in 50-90% of hexes, making bounties common. I thought they were a great tool in my previous vision of how it would work. For anybody wondering, I went in-depth on why I thought this in my linked posts above.
I would expect it to be a much lower percentage, especially to start. There will only be laws in hexes controlled by someone. From the descriptions, there can be many forts in a hex. However, in order to place a settlement, one group has to clear all other forts from the hex. Only then can a charter, or set of laws, be placed in effect.
I guess what I foresee is hexes controlled by PCs or NPCs who may or may not have laws against murder. Everything between them is fair game. Perhaps a merchant would find their money better spent establishing settlements along their route where guards they don't have to pay will be patrolling; rather than keeping infinite bounties in effect for possibly multiple bandits.
I'm hoping that bounties will have a minimum payment that makes it mostly prohibitive. Perhaps someone has the option to place a bounty, but can't afford it, or has to decide if they want to afford it. On the other hand, if bounties can be placed for small amounts, what is going to make a bounty hunter take on the assignment when there are other larger ones available?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You still have a bounty system, you still have a death curse, a criminal still has a criminal (aka KoS tag). You still have high security areas, and NPC wardens. You still have PC policing agencies and do-gooders. The laws will be enforced. Its just w/o an ifinity bounty or long term punishment.
Tuoweit, seriously man, I am trying to be reasonable here. There should be punishmment, there should be deterents, and there should be anti-griefing tactics. But some of the things suggested by the devs and more so in these threads are IMO, way over the top.
I would rather artificial systems that phsically limit how often somebody can be killed (by anyone) be in place than some of these crazy ideas. You could call it a Guardian Angel system or something to give it a in game explanation. Something like (not including war or if you are a criminal etc) an innocent player cant be killed (collectively) more than 3 times in 2 hours, or more than 15 times within a month. If a bandit tries, they will be notified that they shouldnt mess with this PC, a powerful presence is protecting them. IDK, just throwing it out there.
Now if you really want punishment from a lore/RP perspective, Id suggest something more like Archeage. Yes I could go to prison, but I could get my gear back and escape through a mini game, or server my time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There was a reason law courts no longer can try you again for the same crime. It was unjust, and abused.Since we can't actually imprison characters (players apparently don't like losing control of their characters for extended periods of time, go figure), what other means of long-term punishment do you suggest?
Arena! Toss them in with some beasties and if they win they get their crimes stricken from the record. If they fall in combat they.. uh they just let them go... haha. Oh well. This is why I am not a game dev.
But Arena! Fight for the glory of your Guild! Fabulous cash prizes! Good times!
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is one of those topics that will run and run: Goodness Griefious Me!
Some additions:
1. Bounty system creates content for players
2. Death acts as an economic drain and paying bounties likewise
3. Acts as a player-driven check and balance (as well as the other systems) so it will depend on the players and how they interact and communicate.
4. Putting people in prison where they are inactive is not generally a good idea, it's been mentioned previously.
=
I wonder if there is an option to capture alive and have a public judicial hearing in a settlement (possibly neutral) and that could lead to reparations or a public beheading (with higher costs to the victim etc)?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've just finished an extremely high level dungeon and walk out wounded with out time to bind my brand new shiny extremely rare drop artifact and someone ganks me as I'm stuck in a loading screen. I've now lost an item I've spent months trying to get.
My answer for loosing an artifact. It is your stupidity for not threading such a valuable item such as an artifact upon getting hold of it. If you going to do stupid things, you got to pay (that is loose the items) for being stupid. I would immediately call infinite bounty on the one that took the artifact a definite form of griefing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've just finished an extremely high level dungeon and walk out wounded with out time to bind my brand new shiny extremely rare drop artifact and someone ganks me as I'm stuck in a loading screen. I've now lost an item I've spent months trying to get.My answer for loosing an artifact. It is your stupidity for not threading such a valuable item such as an artifact upon getting hold of it. If you going to do stupid things, you got to pay (that is loose the items) for being stupid. I would immediately call infinite bounty on the one that took the artifact a definite form of griefing.
You're making the assumption that threading can be done anywhere, any time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You still have a bounty system, you still have a death curse, a criminal still has a criminal (aka KoS tag). You still have high security areas, and NPC wardens. You still have PC policing agencies and do-gooders. The laws will be enforced. Its just w/o an ifinity bounty or long term punishment.
Tuoweit, seriously man, I am trying to be reasonable here. There should be punishmment, there should be deterents, and there should be anti-griefing tactics. But some of the things suggested by the devs and more so in these threads are IMO, way over the top.
Criminal flags are transient, bandits already generally can't go to high-sec areas for alignment reasons, NPC wardens are only in newbie areas. PC policing agencies and do-gooders are typically the same players as those who will be enforcing bounties, so they're one and the same thing.
Long-term consequences are important because otherwise it's too easy to be a (successful) bandit. When there are too many bandits, the whole game devolves into Lord of the Flies.
The way I see it, banditry gameplay directly impacts, interferes with, and hampers various non-combatant gameplay, like merchants, explorers, and so on - even when there are no bandits around! These non-combatants have to worry about the possiblity that bandits may show up unexpectedly. Everyone is ok with that, including the non-combatants.
Why are people up in arms when those non-combatants get a gameplay tool which similarly directly impacts, interferes with, and hampers banditry gameplay and causes them to worry, even when they haven't engaged in banditry lately? Can you really not put yourself on the other side of the fence and see that it's the same thing?
Now if you really want punishment from a lore/RP perspective, Id suggest something more like Archeage. Yes I could go to prison, but I could get my gear back and escape through a mini game, or server my time.
I'd be all for that instead, but then you'd have people clamoring for the ability to kidnap/enslave other players, and that impacts everyone else too, not just criminals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is one of those topics that will run and run: Goodness Griefious Me!
Some additions:
1. Bounty system creates content for players
2. Death acts as an economic drain and paying bounties likewise
3. Acts as a player-driven check and balance (as well as the other systems) so it will depend on the players and how they interact and communicate.
4. Putting people in prison where they are inactive is not generally a good idea, it's been mentioned previously.=
I wonder if there is an option to capture alive and have a public judicial hearing in a settlement (possibly neutral) and that could lead to reparations or a public beheading (with higher costs to the victim etc)?
That is why I am trying to get this discussion back on track - what should player organizations do about the use of infinite bounties, if anything? There are other treads you can discuss what griefing is or is not. I worded my title and post poorly, and that is on me, for which I am sorry. However, if this thread continues to remain off-track I will ask Paizo to close this thread as I opened it, since there are others in which to discuss griefing. That is why in my last post I asked everyone to use the term abuse, since griefing is such a contentious word.
So is the use of infinite (or at least indefinite) bounties something player run, in-game organizations should be concerned with, or not? If the answer is yes, should a player of a bandit style PC ask for assistance from them if he/she is getting all these bounties. This has nothing to do with what is griefing, or even what GW should do, only what in-game player run organizations and how, if at all, they should treat infinite bounties. GW will handle what they determine to be griefing.
Now, as to your second point - I wonder, also, if LG or LN settlements will have an option for trials rather than killing and if this can find a way into the bounty system (since most settlements will be player run)? From a player perspective, it would be a good way of keeping the immersion for players as settlements keep to their alignment, and allowing bounty hunters to go and apprehend the target would be very interesting. However, I really don't see how this can be accomplished, given the limitations such a system would have. What is to stop the target player from simply logging out after he/she agrees to surrender? How does a bounty hunter or group of bounty hunters even get that PC to a settlement where a trial can be held? It seems to me that the NPC justice system would handle this thing far better than could players, since the server to simply set the "captured" PC at next log-in to be in custody of the Marshals, or even in a jail awaiting trial (the server automatically makes the captured fugitive a prisoner).
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I'd like to see is settlements with the option to license bounty hunters to operate in their controlled area. Kill a bounty without being properly licensed, you weren't bounty hunting, that was just murder (assuming murder is illegal there). It'd definitely give Lawful settlements the feel that bounty hunters aren't just paid murderhobos.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... what should player organizations do about the use of infinite bounties, if anything?
Absolutely nothing.
"Infinite Bounties" were designed by Ryan Dancey specifically to be infinite. Ryan has made it very clear he will be taking a very strong anti-"griefing" stance. Therefore, "Infinite Bounties" would not be considered "griefing", but harassing another player for issuing them might well be.