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This reminds me of an old D&D joke.

Gamer A: "What alignment is Elrond considering he let Isildur walk out of Mount Doom with the one ring?"

Gamer B: "Hmmm ... lawful good?"

Gamer A: "Incorrect ... lawful stupid."

Badda bum ... tish

A couple of posters have proposed that implementing a deeper stealth system would not cause a significant stress on the client (I'm a non techie so I hope I used the correct word) if done/programmed/set up properly. As some one that has no idea the arguments were convincing, but that may be hopeful bias on my part.

Is this point still in contention with those that would know, or has this point been reasonably satisfied?

If at least reasonably satisfied by working professionals in the field what would cause GW to not use such an approach?

For the purpose of the last question I'm not taking in to account the over worked, underpaid and possibly off shored coders, or what not. I mean what would cause them to not at least take this approach; regardless of whether or not they did a good job of it. (Perhaps due to over worked, underpaid, etc. etc., but that would affect the whole project, not just this one thing)

Would it actually, really cost significantly more money to have the proper gear and program's to handle this? The proposed argument seems to say no unless they are working with pretty sub par stuff.

Is it because those in charge of the decisions of such things don't know it's possible? (Even at the risk at sounding rude I'm just wondering if it's possible)

Maybe they just "don't want to do things that way, because that's not the way they are done".

I dunno.

I am very happy to see that stealth will definitely be in the game (confirmed on another thread). I certainly hope it will have at least reasonable impact on pvp game play as well as pve.

If not then this will be the first fantasy mmo rpg I've encountered that does not to the best of memory and knowledge. That would be sad serious weak sauce.

Stealth is the primary defining ability for a rogue/thief/assassin type character. With out stealth it's like saying fighters are great, but they can't take a hit very well. Wizards? Yeah they can cast a lot of spells but lighting, or fireballs? Nah.

I like GW2 stealth. It's not very traditional, but it's fun. WoW had the most broken stealth in some ways. It was eternal and a whole battle could go on around you and no one would notice you. I think Rift was the same way if I remember right. I was fine with Warhammer Online's stealth even though it was more limiting. I didn't play a sneak in Age of Conan very often, but it seemed standard. Blah, blah, blah.

Stealth is doable. Every one else has done it. From this thread it seems like it could be done better for pvp though.

Cute title. I'm very in favor of collision. Yes unfortunately there will need to be a work around for non combat situations. Age of Conan had a feature where your character could crouch and move real slow to get past some one which didn't trigger collision.

No stealth? That's lazy.

"The victim can be killed by the bounty target every chance they get, whether the victim places a bounty or not. So what is wrong with the victim having the opportunity to even the odds?"

The victim call also kill their killer them selves, whether a bounty is placed or not.

"All the system does is provide both sides with equal firepower. If they want to go all the way to mutually assured destruction, so be it. I just don't see that as griefing."

I suppose you are coming at this with the assumption that the victim is personally and individually helpless and requires a bounty system in order for the fight to be fair. I haven't been operating on that assumption.

I'm also not assuming that the infinite bounty placer is capable of being reached by the PKer on a regular, or even semi regular basis. If the infinite bounty placer can be reached by the PKer then I agree it become's a tit for tat scenario of "mutually assured destruction".

In the case of a merchant that has to move product from point A to point B in the wild I agree they have some thing to lose and a bounty system helps to level the field. I'm uncertain that a merchant will have to do this though.

Some are pointing to examples of when an infinite bounty system will be leveling the field, or working against the worst griefers in the gaming community. Other's of us are pointing out that the same system can be used to abuse.

I realize some people don't care about abuse as long as it's in the direction they like. That's the point some of us are making.

Person A slaps person B once.

Person B gets to slap person A every day for life doesn't make any sense.

Now if person B goes out and hunts person A them selves that's another story. At least there is some personal risk involved.

Hiring every one to hunt you down ever day is as lame as a high level ganking in a lowbie zone. I really don't see a difference. If one is wrong then both are wrong.

I have no problem with some one putting a hit out on some one several times to teach them a lesson or for revenge, but at some point it's just as bad as any other griefing. They griefed me once so I'll grief them for life. Lucky for me it's sanctioned and I'll feel justified.

I suppose if infinite bounties are expensive enough it may not matter. If there is a game mechanic for putting a hit on some one then that nullify's the bounty; assuming you know who's placing the bounty.

If it's only an issue in starting zone's or close to major settlements then it may not matter much any way either.

No I'm not pro griefer. If I was then I'd support the eternal bounty. I don't believe in high levels ganking lowbies. I don't believe in body , or zone camping. I don't believe in killing some one ten times just because you can. Why? Because it's griefing. An eternal bounty is griefing.

I'm just stunned that part of the solution to griefing is sanctioned griefing. Just ban serious, continuous offenders and be done with it.

Here's a question. If PKing in a 'lawful' area is so bad then why allow it at all?

There are so many unknowns and possibilities. The devil is always in the details. Like every thing we'll have to wait and see. I have no problem with a bounty system per say, but at some point time should be served for a crime. Otherwise it's just sanctioned griefing.

Maybe in some cases it would work it self out. After all if some one has an eternal bounty out on you why wouldn't you want to kill them every chance you get? Of course if they are a crafter that almost never leaves their city that may be nigh impossible, or actually impossible.

I'll agree that every one will have to decide if the action is worth it or not, but I'd still say an eternal bounty is griefing. Just because it's legal doesn't change it's impact. It would be a griefing tool that people will feel justified in; that's all.

If a bounty isn't griefing then why place a bounty on any one? Isn't the purpose of a bounty to reduce some one else's fun because they first reduced yours?

Don't get me wrong; I hate griefing, but then again we all have our own definition of what that is. Some people love the challenge of being body camped, but most don't. Some people will feel griefed if they are killed once and lose only a few coppers.

Unless some thing is in place that reduces the benefit of placing a bounty on some one continually there may be no reason not too. One crime equals 12 punishments? 20? 50? 100? I understand people will feel justified because it will be game sanctioned, but at some it's griefing.

A system where the minimum bounty price keeps going up could still allow for revenge and then some with out it legalizing griefing indefinitly. At some point the person would run out of money, or the fee wouldn't be worth it any more.

We'll all have to see how every thing shakes out when this thing launches, but looking at this one item in a vacuum with out any more details it just seems whack to me. Steal a candy bar? 10 years of torture! That's justice?

Ironic that the designer's take a tough stance on griefer's with one hand and then create a 'legal' way to grief with the other. Hypocracy?

Repeatedly placing a bounty on some one should cost twice as much as the last time the bounty was issued. This would limit the amount of time some one wanted to grief some one with this exploit. Yes I'd say exploit. I don't think the game designer's intended some one to have an eternal bounty on them from some one. It would still allow several bounties for those with enough coin though.

It should also be account bound; other wise some one would just have one of their alts do it.

This wouldn't eliminate the problem completely though as a group of friends or an entire guild could take turns placing a bounty on just one character.

That being the case perhaps every one should have a bounty stat. It's the amount some one has to put up in order to put a bounty on you. The more often you get a bounty put on you the more it cost. The longer you go with out a bounty on you the cost starts to go down.

As far as rapid movement I like being able to toggle a key once to switch from walk to run and another toggle to start moving and to stop. The mmo rpg standard.

As already mentioned there is typically no reason to walk any where (unless you are rping a stroll I suppose), but bonus's to spot things or hide better in a walk doesn't sound bad.

Having to ramp up a run with multiple key strokes or continually hold down a key to move is annoying. It' just extra key and hand/finger fatigue.

If an exhaust mechanic already exist having jump cost exhaust points seems fine. I'll agree non stop bunny hoping looks silly, but fun some times. I wouldn't add a system just for that though.

As a leftie WASD is a nightmare.

I always use the numeric keypad for movement. It's also great when the arrow keys are usable and distinctive from the numeric key pad. My thumb rest on the down arrow key and I use all four arrow keys as well.

Over all bottom line is people play games differently; so make every thing key bind-able and include every option available.

Fixed

Interesting question. I don't think I've ever played an online mmo rpg where god's mattered at all. That would be interesting; a god/religion centric game.

I try not to play mmo rpg's with a mouse when ever possible. I usually have to reach for my mouse to click on an NPC to talk to them, or to pick up loot and that's about it.

There are plenty of key board players out there and being forced to use a mouse in combat sucks. The possible exception is if there are extremely few abilities to key bind in this game.

When playing an FPS using a mouse is a given and there are few thing's that need key binding, but in most of the mmo rpg's I've played I usually have about 25 or more key binds not counting movement which pushes it over 35.

The general argument for forced mouse usage is that using a mouse takes more skill and those more adept at using one want an advantage over those less adapt. Key board turners are considered noobz.

I, and many other (but not all), key board turners do just fine in pvp with mmo rpg's. I can circle strafe with out a mouse and most likely you wont realize I'm not using a mouse most of the time.

I also mouse with my left hand and use the numeric key pad for movement and many other abilities. There is no lefty 12 button naga and not every one would learn how to use one very effectively any way.

With out tab targeting a reasonable portion of the player population gets greatly inconvenienced. This may constitute a larger portion of the so called casual player base, but I'm uncertain. Since lefty's do not have a 12 button Naga they may be more inclined to be keyboard players.

For me the only advantage in tab targeting is that I don't have to use a mouse, but that is a huge convenience. Using both hands on my keyboard I can move and use 95-99% of my abilities at the same time with out conflict. My right hand is for my characters movement on the numeric key pad and my right thumb uses the arrow keys. There are 8 other keys I can easily reach with my right hand and my left hand is for 17 or so keys; none of them movement based.

Tab targeting is quick, simple and easy, but it has it's disadvantages as well. Many, if not most, mmo rpg's tab targeting does not extend as far as all of your abilities; especially if you are a ranged based character. If your bolt of doom's range is 100 game feet then odds are your tab targeting only goes to about 70, or 80 feet. It's amazing how often I've come across this issue.

Tab targeting in a mosh pit is redonkulous. You want to target the enemy priest, but you have to click through a random number of other targets before you find him and if you over click past your target it's even more fun. Let's not forget that games are fond of having your tab targeting 'target dead bodies too. Awesome.

Once in awhile it may actually be easier to tab target some thing in a big mob fight though; especially if you cant even see your target, or only a small portion of them.

Mouse is better with long range abilities if the tab targeting is not programmed to extend that far. You also don't have to cycle through dead bodies and unintended targets when using a mouse. Mouse users are able to turn faster as well. There may be other benefits of using a mouse that I'm not aware of, or am not thinking of at the moment.

The is only a couple of (to me major) disadvantage's to using a mouse that I can think of. One is that you are very limited to the number of keys your free hand can quickly access. Two; I imagine there are many times when you want to move in a certain direction and use an ability at the same time, but you need to use the same finger/fingers to do both and you are left with the choice of doing one or the other. Either that, or you have to do some sort of odd finger twisting and hoping you get it right.

Tab targeting doesn't have to mean that your character automatically faces your target. You can use tab to target some thing but if that target isn't with in a certain frontal arc you miss, or perhaps the ability cannot be used or what ever.

Now I'm certainly not suggesting that people should be forced to use the tab key (or any other key for that matter) to target. If you are comfortable playing rpg mmo's with a mouse and want to target with your mouse then you should be able to.

Some people use there mouse to click on their abilities. Egads! I can't imagine doing that. You have to take your focus and attention off of what is going on so you can click on one tiny box out of 20 in the middle of combat! How incredibly slow too. I just click a button and it's done with out taking my eyes off the screen.

Does that mean I want those box's to go away so clickers can't use them? No. If that's how they want to play, or what they are used to doing okay.

Thankfully most games distinguish between the arrow keys and the numeric key pad as well, but once in awhile I come across a game that does not. That can almost be a deal breaker for me. I then have to find room for four game functions on other keys with in easy reach.

My over all point is that there are a lot of people that play PC rpg mmo's differently and games should be designed to cater to different play preferences. Mouse or no mouse, lefty's as well as righty's. Every one should be able to play how they are comfortable with.

If city/guild A wants resource X and city/guild B wants resource X and they get in to a war over it which one is the the bad (evil) guy? What if they are both 'good' city/guilds?

I'm not sure how the system works, but if city/guild A sanctions kills against city/guild B due to their war over resource X then it's not longer killing for 'no reason'?

How would that be different than a lone ranger 'randomly killing' a player that is gathering the same resources in an area that they want them selves?

Obviously there will be plenty of pve content, but in this "you are the story" idea it seems like some of the 'you's' need to play the antagonist.

If evil alignments are not supported by the game itself then they should be removed entirely unless they are only there to flag the lone ranger griefers. This doesn't seem to address the mob action of griefing in a guild/city vs. guild/city scenario though.

If that is the case then what we really have is a system of what is good or evil is based on the perspective and desire's of a larger body of players or organization and solo players or smaller groups are left in the dust; destined to be 'evil' or legally 'griefed' by larger factions that have sanctioned against them.

In most mmo rpg's it is assumed that the players are roughly 'the good guys' and that the pve experience is against the monsters and 'bad guys'. Throw in some pvp and suddenly some of the players are perceived as the bad guys now.

If you are a rogue that wants to pvp against other players in an open world setting with out being chaotic evil and flagged/hunted by every one? Is that even possible?

If you are a member of city/guild X how do you pvp with out being evil? Is there a way for your city/guild to sanction the killing/robbing of city/guild B and there fore it's no longer evil?

I'm new to this project so I'm dealing with bits and pieces of information that I've collected so far and do not have the whole of knowledge that many of you have. That being the case I may be off base with any thing or every thing I've typed so far.

Clarification from any one as to the state of the game as it is now would be great. Of course we mostly likely have at least a year and half before it's released so a lot can change between now and then.

Pure speculation on my part, but wouldn't it be in Goblinworks best interest to hit the pledge number even if that means 'they' contribute in some way at the end? ('They' could be a front company, slush fund from GW, PF, etc.)

I can't imagine GW's hitting 80-90% of goal and then just letting it slide away. You would seriously p!zz off your core player/fan base and it could encourage a vote of no confidence for any future kick starters. It would be a no win scenario.

I pledged a little more than I am comfortable with considering my meager income because I believe in this project and I want it to succeed. While I realize it's possible to face plant I just don't think it's going to happen.

Be positive, keep pledging, tell your friends, post on Facebook, etc. and all will be fine.