Gloreindl's page

Not sure if it was a server issue with loads of people logging in last evening to try the new build, but I couldn't do anything with my toon - both keyboard and mouse commands failed to do anything. After 15 mins of this I gave up :(

And, no, it wasn't an encomuberence issue - I had dumped all my stuff in bank weeks ago. Only have a spar wand, staff and robe on me.

You may need a third draft:

Have you played in the Alpaca phase of PFO?

[] Yes
[] No

Somehow Alpha morphed into an animal ;)

Filled out, though I wish you had an option for "When do you think EE should start, based upon current state of the game?" and list various dates ranging from a week to 3+ months. That would add a much needed metric for this poll:

1) 1-2 weeks
2) 2-3 weeks
3) 1 month
4) 1-2 months
5) 2-3 months
6) longer than 3 months

Yes, but what is more important to GW: Testing out new builds with a possibly larger group (possibly because many I have spoken to are unwilling to start EE if they have to start their subscriptions) or have a much larger EE population because the EE build is much further along. Simply put, is it better to have a product with a large test population but which fails due to finances; or a small test population and only then, when a real EE build is available to start EE and get players to be willing to infuse much needed cash via monthly subscription? GW has to weigh that. In a perfect world it could be both, but as we don't live in a perfect world, it is something GW and Paizo have to really consider before launching EE. Potential (small) population increase vs better long term finances. I know I'd choose the better finances myself, and would advise that course of action to the company who's board I sit on, but I think long term, big picture - something rare in today's business climate. Anyway, it is up to GW and Paizo now to decide between the two. I am only offering my informed opinion.

Personally, if I were to be in the market and wasn't inclined to build my own PC (my personal disability precludes me from doing so, even though I am a trained PC tech), I'd look into getting the best Alienware Area 51 PC I could afford. The specs are fantastic, and spending a good deal now will save money in the long run as a top of the line model fully tricked out will last you a long time, and is fully up-gradable should you want new video cards (it comes with two running in SLI mode) and also tops out with 32 MB of RAM. Plenty of space for multi-terabyte HD's (3 I think) and a very nice Sound Blaster option.

Bludd, I agree about the auto-target bug, however, I don't see the rep loss and lengthy rep recovery time for those who do engage in PvP as a bad thing. As you note, it prevents some from doing PvP; thus making PvP far more meaningful - if you decide to engage in it, it has to have a good reason behind it. It will discourage ganking, and griefing, while showing a deep level of commitment by those who do PvP in wanting to use it as just another tool (and expensive one, yes), in their quiver in effecting change in the persistent PfO world.

I see no downside to this. Ryan has stated many times PvP should be meaningful. It should impact not just the toon doing it, but the world as a whole, including how people be they players or NPC's view that toon/player. Granted, I also think that the new statements that PvP is the "Core" of PfO is far different from what was stated back when I supported both KS campaigns. PvP shouldn't be the core of the game - community should be, and that leads to PvP conflicts that don't have flags and rep loss (settlement wars, the War of Towers, etc...) Those who PvP outside these should just be willing to accept the rep loss and a day or so of not being able to train if PvP furthers their goals. In a game where everyone gets the same XP over time, what is so horrible about a delayed training? Rep loss fades, so it is just an inconvenience in that you have to do other things rather than train. PfO should, eventually, have plenty to do to occupy that player's time (yes, more PvE content is needed, as I believe you posted - dungeons would be a nice touch, be they cave systems, ruins, underground lairs of mad wizards, etc...)

Again, just my humble opinion. And yes, I thin the current system is just a placeholder as the alignment system isn't in place yet (another thing I believe should be in before EE). People will expect EE to be further along than it will be if the next build (or the one after that) is the EE build, unless the Devs work miracles and get more of what was discussed in the KS campaigns are at least at a bare bones point, showing that they are being worked on with near future completion.

Like I posted earlier, GW and Paizo will be sorely disappointed if they think KS backer who haven't been following this game too closely get into EE and say "Hey, I think this is something I will start paying for in the next few months". Not going to happen. The economy is still a struggle for many, and $15/month for a game that leaves some feeling they are getting the short end of the stick will just prove a money looser in the short term as people don't subscribe, right at a time when GW needs those subscription $ flowing in. I want PfO to succeed but it won't if it its base shrinks so much or players are unwilling to start their subscriptions, until some nebulous future date when they feel it will be worth the added money out of their pocket. Better for GW, Paizo, and all the players that EE be delayed as long as possible so as to make it a commercial success. It has been posted by many of us, once EE is open, the bloggers and review sites will savage it, and players who have been waiting on EE, as well as potential OE players, will be scared away. Bad long term business planning, and I say this as someone who has owned two businesses and is on the board of another.

I know I will catch flack for this, but I truly hope that EE doesn't begin before January, giving the Devs/artists and others time to iron out the many issues, especially server side, that still plague PfO.

In another thread, Ryan is looking for ideas for the first PfO trailer, and while the ideas players are posting, they lack one major thing: Huge Red Flashing signs saying things like WIP; Not Ready for Prime-time; Content at Early Stage of Development; etc...

PfO has a huge potential factor, but if GW & Paizo, both companies i support, don't tamp down on EE expectations and/or make Ryan's MVP closer to what people are willing to pay for (still no word if the estimated $15/month is accurate), people will come, see, and leave.

We need a number of new builds, or one really large one addressing multitudes of issues, and a time to test them all. I know Ryan is chomping at the bit to get an EE release build out, I just implore him to please be willing to make sure that candidate has as much as can be done to make the game more interesting. and fun. People not in Alpha will expect a more polished game, with few de-syncs as possible (or better yet, none), escalations that are more manageable, a better interface for both AH and crafting, a higher drop rate for arcane spells, real PvP (for those that want it - I only will engage in it rarely, such as in guild/settlement wars, aiding those lower "level" than myself from being ganked and/or robbed, etc...); slower rep regeneration (sorry Bludd, but I think it is way to fast now, just MHO, but you do the crime, it should have a longer lasting effect on Rep), better settlement and company controls; slightly better character graphics will expectations of them getting much, much better; et. al.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I am concerned a great deal that EE rolls out and people who only have EE access will log in, look around and leave, thus reducing cash flow, which dooms PfO. PfO can't exist with a reduced cash flow, as Devs, artists, and other staffers expect (and rightly so) to be paid, and new upgrades to infrastructure also costs $.

Kadere wrote:

...(Braccas ad Libitum)...

Been a long time since Latin in middle school; is that "Trousers Are Optional"? What a great name.

I translate it as Pants of Pleasure, or Pleasure Pants lol

I have only found two divine spells ever, and not a single Arcane spell. I figure it'll be a cold day in the Nine Hells when I do find an Arcane one :(

My opinion of the game so far:

1) No where near a point of MVP to me - MVP = when I am willing to actually plunk down the expected $15/month.

2) Will be forced to, as I dislike most peoples' version of PvP, to wear & use only starter items for my main and if I cannot use an item immediately from loot, junk it. PvP should be meaningful, such as having an impact on the larger work around my character. PvP just to grab a few minor items isn't.

3) I believe that all I will do for some time is log in my main just to keep XP flowing to him and my DT, but do little else as the game, as it now stands and is expected to be come EE, rather boring. I will still take advantage of gaining XP from day one, but have no reason to spend any except on my crafter alt to make some minimal coins to help outfit both toon down the road.

4) I will play in earnest once GW has PfO a game worthy of my attention (which will require more things to do in game, better rates of arcane spell drops, more mobs to fight, escalations that can be defeated and replaced by new forces, Hell Knights, dungeons and other side adventures, etc... ad nauseum)

5) A rethinking of rep loss and training issues - current plans allow for recovery of rep far too quickly IMHO, rewarding those who have decided PvP need not be meaningful, just a means to get rich, having little impact on the wider world other than an occasional purchase at one of the AH's with their ill gotten gains. Rep loss on second hit is fine, but limit recovery to a MAX of 5/hour total. You want to PvP outside wars, fine, but know that society takes a dim view, and you'll likely need to wait days to be able to train.

I have 4 months of paid subscription free due to my backing both Kickstarters, so once EE occurs, GW has 4 months to convince me I am not throwing good money after bad - make sure the game is worth the estimated $15/month. If you can't do so in 4 months, push back EE until you have things closer to being able to do so. Hell, some people only have 3 months free, so better GW set that as a goal. I don't much care if EE doesn't start till March 2015 as long as a more complete game is offered, and shortly after that it is upgraded to actually be worth paying for the game. While I disagree with others that certain other games in various stages of development out there are PfO busters, I do think PfO can bust itself once players are expected to fork over $. At that point I fully expect, if it isn't much further along than what we can expect in just a week or two, the various MMO blogs and review sites will be justified in giving PfO a D (at best).

Hope I stuck to your rules Cheatle. I have noticed many have not :(

My favorite math: N = RfpneflfifcL ;)

I will be surprised if PFO gets enough users to stay afloat considering the lack of luster and the amount PFO has strayed from PNP. Lost both demographics and ended up[ with a few weird defensive fanboy's.

PfO was never going to be the same as the PnP game. It will use the Golarion lore, but some items/terms/mechanics are owned by Wizards of the Coast. Paizo uses them under the Open Gaming License (OGL). Goblinworks is not a party to that license, so cannot use them. This was stated up front during the KS days and often repeated. It is more Golarion Online.

I'm not overly enamored with all the bugs, especially the continued server farm issues causing the desync. I know GW is taking a long vies and an approach that matches that view. Does it irk me at times? Yes, but in the long run I do feel it will make for a better game. Star Citizen, LiF, and others will go the way of other fads. However, PfO isn't like most other MMO's, and so saying it has lost those who play MMO's just tells me that those who want yet another WoW clone will not be darkening this game.

Am I a fanboi/boy? No, I have pointed out to GW where they need to improve things. I have voiced my frustration. What I am is someone who paid a lot (at least to me) to help make a game and want to see it eventually come to fruition. I am a huge Pathfinder and Paizo fan, ever since Pathfinder came onto the market. It is fine with me that Pathfinder and PfO aren't the same thing. Have you ever played Neverwinter Nights (in any iteration) or DDO? Those aren't perfect D&D games either (especially NWN - 4th edition, yuck). But how many MMO's capture the original games they are based upon? Warhammer ring a bell?

Andius, you and others may not like what is happening with PfO, and yes you all have a right to voice your concerns, or leave if that is what you want, but the argument that PfO is bad because it isn't Pathfinder or similar to any other MMO isn't one that holds water. Both Paizo and GW have been very upfront that PfO was never intended to be either of those things.

Peace.

I understand your frustration with my post my TEO brother, but as you point out many with EE access haven't had, as we have, access to the Alpha. My main concern, after server farm stability, is making sure the first impression is a good one. Yes I agree EE is just a long Beta but if you a d I don't want to see more people take the attitude of a former TEO member I shan't name, the Goblinworks need to put forth a slightly better MVP. I have supported PfO since the concept video Kickstarter and I want to see it succeed and thrive for years if not decades.

Sadly, I doubt EE will be ready by this Thursday. I pray that Ryan and staff prove me wrong, but I simply don't see PrO as yet at a stage remotely EE ready. Server is stressed such that player experience the desycrinization at least once a game session, with many experiencing them more frequently. The UI still needs a manor overhaul; drop rates and settlements levels need to be such that it is fair to all players (currently only rogues, fighters and clerics can trail their roles to 8, wizards are still restricted by settlement level to role 4); a better AH interface is desperately needed; better handling of the escalation mechanics to reduce server stress goes with the above mentioned desyncing "bug"; more official documentation of harvesting and crafting, particularly recipes so new to crafting players have a better grasp of what feats they should spend experience one and what isn't needed to buy with said xp. The list is longer but as I am on my Galaxy phone I will leave it there for now. Cheatle and others are probably correct and EE needs at least two more weeks to become a reality. Having been a software tech, my gut feeling is it more than likely needs a full month or more, but that is only based upon what little info I can glean from the public forum, not having paid for Alpha only EE.

Nihimon wrote:

I am quite concerned about the fact that it will be mathematically impossible to craft Wizard Weapons before the start of the real War of Towers if that starts as scheduled in the 2nd week of Early Enrollment.

• Hunger's Longbow +2 - 5 days
  
• Apprentice's Wand +2 - 10 days
  
• Apprentice's Staff +2 - 17 days

Wizards already have more functional abilities at level 1, not sure how this is a problem.

The cantrips need either a wand or a staff to be used. Staff cantrips appear to be the more powerful ones, and have greater range, hence the reason I suspect Nihimon use Hunter's Longbow as an example. Note that all the weapons are +2. Nihimon is pointing out that the time it takes to be able to make a weapon of equal power is far longer for us Wizards, thus putting us at a disadvantage.

If the current trend holds into EE, Divine spells drop at a greater rate, though still rare, than do Arcane spells. So when the real war of the towers rolls around, based on current ETA, Wizards will be behind all other roles in terms of availability of spells and arcane weaponry of equal power to all the rest.

I share his concern, as my main is a Wizard (Alt is a crafter, who will not be able to make Arcane weapons @ +2 for at least 10 days (Wand) or 15 days (Staff) ) So, as you can see, this effects both my main and Destiny's Twin.

Interesting observations and suggestions Schedim. Currently I think the "Plant Nodes" as more "Nature nodes:, finding it easier to grasp getting wool and other none plant items (freshwater pearls, as another example).

My own list of observations, comments and suggestions are:

1) After Server stability and major enhancements to the AH system to make for a better economy (PLEASE add a better search feature, and allow for the search of only what is in that ah), lets have a look at graphics - particularly how seamlessly they work, both as how nodes, trees, bridges, and other items work with the ground. Found, and bugged a lot of places that seams between portions of the ground are showing as they seem to be of different heights; found a bridge whose ramp was about twice the height of my Elf, or roughly 6 meters above the ground, making it unusable. etc...

2) UI: The UI, for an Alpha one is okay, but I hope things get changed with it, such as adding mouse scroll to all the windows, as it works in chat; mouse-over info on such things as items in inventory, quests, and other things it would benefit players in knowing more about them. Also being allowed to freely re-scale the windows separately rather than from a settings command would help those of us who want to customize the UI to our tastes and gameplay.

3) Chat - Being able to both link items and URL's would greatly enhance this tool.

4) Crafting: Mousing over a recipe, as noted would help players understand what components are needed to make an item, not just in inventory before you learn them, but also in all crafting workshops, as it is easy to forget which recipe needs what, especially for dedicated crafters with lots of recipes, as well as those who dabble. Right now all we see is boxes that tell us how much of an item is needed but not what that item is. Frustrating for those seeking to learn how to craft.

5) Arcane and Divine Spell drops: Cantrips and Orisons are available through trainers, but actual Spells are relegated to drops. Divine drops are rare, and Arcane is extremely rare Most people I have spoken to in game have yet to see either, and those, like myself, that have been lucky to get a spell or two 99.9995% of the time it is a Divine spell. Better balance and frequency of drops is needed to aid those of us going spell slinging route.

6) When Alpha ends, all characters will be wiped. I can live with that; but also allow us to also redo the appearances of those characters. Currently the character creator appearance choices are very limited, and many are rather ugly. As an Elf (my main) Elf flesh was a choice of looking like an under fed vampire or a slightly green pale skin that reminds me of zombie flesh. My alt, a Dwarf, looks like he spent his formative years trying to mine with his face. Not looked at any human skins, but I can't imagine they are much better

7) When it comes time to add new mobs, please be sure to look at existing ones. No reason in a fantasy world for all bandits to be humans. Make some Dwarves and Elves. Do the same with skeletons, adding in goblin, wolf, goblin dog, and ogre skeletons along with Elf and Dwarf ones. As new races are added, like Halflings, add them to the mix as well. Necromancers in Pathfinder generally aren't picky when it comes to making large groups of undead, especially mindless ones.

8) Hopefully what the Devs have learned from the water around TK will translate to more water in this section of the River Kingdoms, and the skills to interact with them (swimming and a breath system).

9) Please tone down the Sun and the Moon's light/glare. It would be nice to actually be able to see what the devs/designers/artists created.

10) As EE and even OE roles around, please continue to add new races and new deities. Golarion is a rich fantasy world. Please make use of the info Paizo has put out there.

The richness and diversity of the core game, Pathfinder RPG, is beautiful in design, and I hope as much as possible can be translated to the MMO experience. Stick to the lore about the region, and the game in general (yes, this includes accepting same-sex relationship, inter-racial (really, inter-racial as the characters are of different races) relationships, and all the diversity Paizo has included. Encourage players to use the Pathfinder lore to enhance RP. And for the sake of the Gods, please promote RP!! PvE, PvP, a real player economy and the rest means little if the game fails to be immersive regarding RP. Now, it should not be used to cause fighting between players (Yes Elves and Dwarves don't get along so well, but using in-game racial slurs will need to be watched, especially if they are masked real world ethnic slurs - IRL there is only one race, humans, just of different ethnic and cultural backgrounds).

I am sure I will think of more things as I continue in the Alpha and EE (which I see as a Beta).

Gloreindl wrote:

Hey guys. It has been a bad year for me with my mom slowly dying since a year ago this past Summer, and this Summer my wife became gravely ill, so I haven't been on the forums. I tried to log in over at the Empyrean.org site on Wordpress, but it isn't accepting my name, email or password. What's up? Did you purge? Anyway if you could re-activate my account, as I now have the time, and am participating in the Alpha, I'd appreciate it.

Gloreindl Goldleaf

AKA

John

I actually really love your name, I'm almost inspired to write a story about Gloreindl.

Gloreindl has a long and storied past, having existed in table-top RPG's and MMO's for over 34 years now ;) I based it on Tolkien's work, using Glo from Glofindal, and the last name of my best friend since I was 4, Reindl (Norwegian name). He was my second character in D&D Basic, and lived on through all the iterations of D&D, SPI's Dragonquest, and now Pathfinder.

Hey guys. It has been a bad year for me with my mom slowly dying since a year ago this past Summer, and this Summer my wife became gravely ill, so I haven't been on the forums. I tried to log in over at the Empyrean.org site on Wordpress, but it isn't accepting my name, email or password. What's up? Did you purge? Anyway if you could re-activate my account, as I now have the time, and am participating in the Alpha, I'd appreciate it.

Gloreindl Goldleaf

AKA

John

I do find it a bit tiresome when people say "MTX always leads to pay to win". MTX, in the Western market, has only been a meaningful feature for 5 years or less, and the very first "designed from the ground up with MTX" Western MMORPG just shipped - Neverwinter.

Trying to see how MTX in the West will work by looking at how games from the East were converted for use in the West, or looking at how business models from the East were retrofit onto Western games that weren't designed for them is interesting, but not indicative of what will succeed in the West.

And since the MTX model has proven to be such a better business than the old fixed-price subscription model, there is zero, nada, zilch, zip, no chance it will go away. So make your peace.

Ryan, If this was directed at my post (or those who supported it), I didn't mean to imply it always, 100% of the time a MTX leads to a Pay to win case, put more often than not it does. I am hoping that in this case GW and Paizo will recognize that is the case, and take all the possible steps to prevent it from happening in PfO. I have posted elsewhere in this forum I have no problem with cosmetic items, but I do have an issue where players can circumvent the in game player crafters and buy gear that would/should only be available via that in game market. Keep armor, weapons and magical items out of the shop, and I am fully supportive of your alternative revenue stream idea.

@ Nihimon - to answer your question, I have to say it depends. If said golfer plays only on public golf courses where the average set of clubs is $300 bought at someplace like Target, then yes, I do think it is pay to win. If said player plays at a club where others could also afford that same set but choose not to then no it isn't. Anything that doesn't allow for a level playing field is pay to win. He/she bought that set because he/she could afford to AND they knew it would give them a big advantage over those who couldn't afford to also purchase it or a comparable set. It is no different than an adult baseball league where a team brings in a Triple-A player as a ringer, because he is some friend of one of the players. It is unfair to everyone else who wants to play a fair game.

Just my 2 coppers, but I have always been in favor of PfO being subscription only based with NO micro-transaction store. F2P + RL $ store all too often leads to pay to win,(even if the devs never intended that to happen - players, and I use that term very loosely, clamor for more items to be sold and too many games/devs feel the pressure to give in to them) and attracts "players" I would rather not encounter. I don't want immature players, I don't want groups like those Ryan has warned us about from places like EvE, and I don't want players who contribute nothing to the community we're trying to build.

The Nihimonicom just entered my Cthulhu-based PFRPG game as a forbidden book! ;)

I'd like to join you all, but my mother has been ill over the past few months, and isn't getting better, though thankfully it isn't life threatening. However at 80, she lacks the funds to cover all that medicare and her medi-gap coverage doesn't cover. $40 for a game, plus $15/month is too pricey at this time, especially for a game that is, essentially, just a practice game. If someone, at some point, goes for a lower priced, or even F2P game (yeah, I'm not a fan of those in general), I'll join up. Until then, my wife & I, my sister and my other sister & her husband are laying out a lot for medications (medicare part D sucks), home health aid, and Dr visits for Mom.

Good luck all!

Arcane Elven character interested in exploring ruins and such for new Arcane research and items. Very limited PvP, though I will stand with my TEO brethren, and the community as a whole against those who will seek to ruin the game and players' fun, and help build an Elven community for players of the best Fantasy race ever :D Oh, and make lots of gold!

OK, it's Monday, so where's the videos? :P

I tried to go back to EvE to play with my TEO brethren, but the issues I have with the game, which will not plague PfO as things like training queues have been eliminated, just made me feel frustrated all over again. Haven't tried Planetside 2 (or the original, though friends who have played one or both like it), but I'm not a big SF MMO fan. I prefer Fantasy for gaming. SF is great reading. So any suggestions for a FRPG MMO that meets the criteria? Not many Sandbox PvP MMO's out there, yet ;)

Racials are an absolute must in my opinion

Agree 1000%

Forgive me if this has been asked and answered already, but in a skim of the five pages, I didn't see it, so here goes: how will Mythic Adventures affect a campaign run using Ultimate Campaign? Some of the spells described in the blurb for this book would have far reaching effects on an Ultimate Campaign campaign setting, as just one example.

Thanks in advance for the answer(s). :)

I have to admit that a good 99% of the time when playing PC games, I shut off the music and create my own playlist for that game to run along with it. This is because a lot of the time the music seems pretty canned, and really repetitive (every battle uses the same music, every village visited has the same music, etc...). I hope PfO will change this up, with a good selection of music (possibly allowing the player to toggle themes? HINT @ GW).

This also extends, somewhat, to ambient sounds. Settlement sounds should be based upon the buildings found in that settlement, thus giving each one a unique sound "flavor" to match its unique building usage. Just an idea, but if every settlement sound the same, it has a minor effect of pulling the player out of the immersive feel.

My favorite 3.5 character was a Gnome Paladin Valley Girl on a riding dog that use to have fly cast on her mount and Ride-by-Attack indoors.

She died doing it one day and reincarnated as a wood elf.

One of the stupidest things Wizards did in 4th ed was getting rid of gnomes and replacing them with idiotic dragonborn in an effort to suck in warhammer and WoW kiddies.

4E is, and I should note I did play it for over a year to give it a fair chance, just a table top version of WoW. After the year plus I played it every week, I can truly say it sucks. Since I can't say much about D&D Next due to the NDA, all I will say about it is it can be described much as the 4E version can be... I'll be sticking to PFRPG for a long time (though I am trying to get my hands on a copy of the old Dranquest RPG SPI first put out) :)

Avena is correct about the downside of having lots of NPC's running around. It would take resources away from other areas of gameplay and development. Additionally, and this is just my humble opinion, it would also negate the premise of PfO - a player character oriented sandbox, where you must rely upon others. DDO, as an example, gave in to pressure from loner-style gamers and allowed hirelings. All this did was made for a rather unsocial game. PfO is designed for a small, tight-knit community of players, unlike DDO. Soloing isn't a game style PfO should be accommodating. Yes, I do realize some people will have difficulty getting groups together, but if you look at the thread dedicated to seeing where people are in the real world, those posting (and they represent just a small fraction of those who backed the game) come from all over the world. I don't think it will be as had to find groups in PfO as it is in other, larger MMO's, simply because there will be fewer opportunities to group. While that sounds odd, let me explain - in larger MMO's any given player has many options to group, both with his/her friends, guild and PUG's. With a limited number of players, especially in EE, players will group with those he/she can, thus allowing for the greater likelihood that a group will form far more quickly than in other games. Smaller number of people means the more those people rely on each other, creating a more social game; one where player character friendships and rivalries can be fully explored, thus making for lots of RP possibilities.

Having hirelings/retainers available would allow people to bypass all of the things Paizo and GW want PfO to become - a vibrant living and persistent world where everyone has a role to play and a stake to claim in how things evolve. Additionally, hirelings in a PvP oriented game are a way for players to "game" the system, by hiring the most powerful NPC's they can, upsetting the game balance.

Better for the game as a whole, and therefore the players in general, to leave such things out of PfO until such time as PfO has grown to a point where they would have a minimal impact on game play.

Eldurian Darkrender wrote:

Monks aren't Asian!!! Almost every culture has monks. They all sit in there little monasteries, praying, fasting, and practicing kung-fu.

This made me envision St. Francis whipping out a Crescent Kick... which made me laugh quite a bit :)

He was, I assure you, a complete master of all the animal styles ;)

- Cash Shop and keeping the items in it less powerful/effective than player crafted items.

- How will magical items, weapons and other gear work withing the MMO system.

- In the same vein, Scrolls and how they will work
- Familiars and Bonded items for Wizards.

- More info on Companions, including Familiars, but also Druid and Ranger animals/plants and Paladin horses.

- Racial weapon abilities, such as will Elves still get Longsword and Bows; Dwarves get axes, etc?

- Additional NPC groups/factions, like a band of Elves living in the Echo Woods, or a group of Druids living also in the Echo Woods, or a band of river pirates, etc...

First one is my biggest concern, though - a Cash Shop can be a very unbalancing thing to an MMO, so what does GW plan to do to make it helpful, but limited in scope? Player Crafters should ALWAYS make better items than any cash shop item, and have access to higher tier crafting (that is to say cash item shop may have T1 items, but only Crafters can make T2-T3 items).

My two coppers worth - I have two 1GB Nvidia cards working in SLI fully capable of 3DVision, and my PC is hooked up to my 56" 3D LCD HDTV. That being said, I don't really care if PfO is 3D capable. I likely won't use it anyway, as I'd have to turn the 3D on on the TV, wear the glasses and otherwise not be able to just jump into the game immediately, which is all I want to do - run the client and game.

I like Ryan's idea of (using his example) only one of five types of horses available in the cash shop, and the difference is only cosmetic (the non-functioning "Unicorn" horn). I can live with that, especially if player crafters can tame and sell real Unicorns (not stated in his example, but still possible).

Such minor, non-game affecting differences are OK by me for such minor things. I am still against any items that would have effects that mimic gear, such as weapons, armor, potions, rings, staves, rods, magical clothing, etc... though. Cosmetic items are fine, as they add to the RP possibilities. Using the red horse with a Unicorn horn as an example, as long as it can't be used to breed more, but with real horns, fine. Someone wanting a mount that doesn't do anything more than a normal mount besides a minor cosmetic change, fine.

I realize potions will likely end up in the cash shop, along with other items I believe should only be Player crafter, but if they have to be included for GW to see more cash flow that will be reinvested into the game, please make sure they do less than a player crafted item of the same type. Using healing potions as an example, if a player made T1 healing potion heals 50 points of damage, then the cash shop version should only heal 30. It still aids the player who paid cash, but he/she would have been better off with a player made one. I understand that sometimes it will be hard to buy enough such items at player markets, hence GW's desire to sell them for cash, but please GW, make sure that player made ones still are better (to much better) than cash items. You still get to sell them to players who want to have a ready supply of them, especially when the local settlement markets don't have or don't have enough, but they don't unbalance the game.

ZP is correct - GW is a small company with limited staff, only some of whom are programmers/Devs. Man hours needed to get a working game ready for EE are, frankly, finite, so cross-platform work isn't likely a priority. However, Unity does work cross-platform, and both Linux and Mac OS both have Windows emulation programs. Both of you, Romløk and DarkOne could be playing from day one using the Unity Client and the emulation programs. However, given Unity's cross-platform abilities, it might well be that no emulation will be needed. Regardless, you both have options that don't require either of you to leave or swear off PfO. Thus I hope you will both reconsider.

CaptnB wrote:

Quote:

The runaway favorite is Twice-Marked of Pharasma, which has been selected 976 times!

That's a surprise as nothing was said about what it is... right?

Nothing's really been said about that one, or the regional trait pack.

Can't really speak to the Twice Marked other than it states those so marked would have access to content not otherwise available (so maybe a trip to the Boneyard in "ghost form"?)

I am expecting regional trait packs to function much like the ones in the Golarion setting, though modified for MMO play. Access to special traits and possibly some other game aspects (resistance to certain energies, such as those taking the regional trait packs for any of the far north areas gaining a minor resistance to cold). Such traits are found in various books (Inner Sea Guide, Gazetteer) and in many of the published Adventure Paths (AP's), plus in Paizo's blogs. What remains to be seen is how they will be modified to fit an MMO experience, as it is quite different than PnP games. I hope this will be revealed soon :)

Nihimon, as you know I have the deepest respect for you, but I hope that in this case you are wrong about the gear sold in the cash shop (or even wrong that gear will be sold there). "Whales" might work in Vegas, but this is a crowdfunded, crowdforged game, and it would appear the crowdforgers are coming out against the idea of gear and many consumables being sold in the cash shop. Thus far GW has been quite good at listening to the crowdforgers, and I hope, quite deeply, they will listen yet again.

A cash shop is fine if the things within it for sale do not upset the balance of the game or give advantages to those who can afford them, or a disadvantage to those who cannot. Bypassing in game Crafters, and all that goes into crafting is simply too unfair, as would selling items that cash strapped players will not have easy access to such as consumable items that heal or boost skills/combat/items quality (like sharpening stones, as seen in some MMO's). I am fine with any item that is of lesser quality than what a Crafter can make, even a novice Crafter, but start adding T2-T3 items that have high quality levels, and you disenfranchise those players who either lack RL fund or who play crafters/harvesters. This is unacceptable for a Sandbox game designed for high social interactions, especially when so many are voicing their opposition to just such items and services sold in a cash shop.

By all means GW should have one, it is important to revenue stream, but make the items sold, besides training time and other account related "goods", be more flashy than functional. Players will still pay to have interesting looking avatars, or a mount that is just a mount if it saves them time and effort. I also like the ideas posted about skins for armor, weapons, items, buildings and settlements. People, CC's, Guilds and Kingdoms will buy these, respectively. The market is wide open without relaying om goods and services that only punish those without the cash or desire to buy items for real money.

Give me an option for a really nice, exotic Elven Wizard's robes and a skin for my staff and my longsword ( Longbow and I will buy them. However if they also give a bonus to spell casting or combat, no thank you. PfO is about playing in a living persistent world, and cash shop good that favor the buyer and/or disfavor those who cannot buy them ruins this concept IMHO. Thus I implore GW to really think about what the crowdforgers are posting here - no to advantageous items in the cash shop, yes to items that enhance RP or accounts. Just MHO, but one I see many others share. PfO stands at a point where it can redefine how many, possibly all, aspects of MMO gaming can be altered for the better. Using the tired old cash shop ideas is a step backward. I encourage GW to be innovative while keeping a level playing field for all.

Gloreindl wrote:

Nihimon, have to agree, Windows 8 was a disaster. I haven't looked at Windows 8.1 yet, and the latest iOS doesn't look much better than Windows 8, so I will be sticking with Windows 7 for now :)

IOS is a tablet interface, comparing it with desktop operating systems is major kind of apples and oranges thing.

Sorry LazarX for calling MacOS iOS - as noted in my post it has been thirteen years since I was a tech. Thirteen years ago I had back surgery that found I had severe degenerative disc disease and was told by more than a few doctors I had to stop working or risk becoming paralyzed. As a result I had a brain fart, since the only Apple product I have used in years is an iPod, so am used to saying iOS rather than OS10 (or whatever the current one is) or MacOS as I did back then. Since I cannot and haven't worked as a Tech, I simply don't follow the latest OS news for any of them. I went back to my first love, and what I received my degree in - History; Medieval Military History to be precise, and the political ramifications of the Crusades and Mongol Expansion. (BA in History & Political Science, Adelphi University, 1989).

Regardless of my tale of woe however, the fact is that Linux and even MacOS isn't a large part of the gaming community, though Apple has made some halfhearted attempts to change that over the years, but to my knowledge, limited as it is, it never really became a gaming platform for computers. Windows is, for now, the de facto OS worldwide. Maby Android has a shot of doing what Apple and Unix/Linux open source OS' have not been able to do, but I am not holding my breath on that, not while the PC still is king and PC makers favor the deals they have with Microsoft.

Yes, backed both

Haven't used Linux in many years, but iirc, ZenPagan has it correct. Even with attempting a number of GUI's I never felt all that comfortable working on a Linux computer when I was a Tech. I am not saying Linux itself is bad - it isn't, especially for what the science lab and school I worked for used it for - designing a groundbreaking Bioinformatics program. Linux, like Unix is very good for scientific endeavors, but I didn't find it much good for other work or recreational uses. However, as I said I haven't used it in about thirteen years now, so maybe for some that has changed.

Nihimon, have to agree, Windows 8 was a disaster. I haven't looked at Windows 8.1 yet, and the latest iOS doesn't look much better than Windows 8, so I will be sticking with Windows 7 for now :)

Hobs the Short wrote:

This just smacks of convenience being more important than in-game activity and interaction...

Personally, it's more about finding ways for Goblinworks to make money than it is about finding ways to make things more convenient for the players. If I were prioritizing convenience, I would not have limited my suggestion to "starter resources".

If you're going to object to every convenience item in the Cash Shop, then your objections will simply be ignored, because they've already said they're going to have convenience items in the Cash Shop. If not this particular convenience item, then what others would be acceptable to you?

Ryan Dancey (Smedley's been lurking Ryan's Blogs!) wrote:

@Gambit - our MTX store will have items with in-game mechanical effects.

Our commitment to the player community is that none of those things will be the best in the game - a player crafted item will always be at least as good, if not better, than anything you can buy in the store. And we do not intend to put items into the store that are more than "convenience" items; things that are primarily consumables and that simply help reduce some of the minor irritations of playing.

There will be lots of bling, lots of mounts, lots of flashy sparkly bits.

The place where we draw the line between "pay-to-win" and "convenience" will almost certainly change over time as the game and the market develops. But I cannot imagine a time when the people who play the game would feel compelled to make MTX purchases for gear.

RyanD

Ryan Dancey (Cash shop items) wrote:

There will likely be convenience items in the cash shop that have analogs that can be crafted by players like potions of healing. They won't be materially better than what you can craft yourself, and the point of making them available for sale is just to

...

I am not a big fan of cash shops, though as I have posted before, I understand it is a legitimate way for GW to increase revenue. Things I will object to would be anything that gives an unfair advantage, or requires the use of the cash shop (this has been a big trend over the past few years, especially with chests/lock-boxes/bins and other items dropped by Mobs and the like but require cash shop keys to open). Based upon the quote from Ryan, it appears that he, and thus GW, are aware that nothing in the cash shop should do any of that.

So player 1 buys a mount, lets say a horse, from the cash shop. Fine, as long as it only gets him/her from point A to B and back again, while the mount player 2 bought from a Ranger/Druid/Crafter (say an animal breeder or trainer)gets him/her not only from A to B and back, but also can aid in combat. Cash shop mounts can't be trained the way a player raised one can, thus making the cash shop one equal to the player raised/trained on up to a certain degree, but inferior to it also.

Cosmetic bling is fine too, as it does nothing. I don't really care if someone has a silk robe bedecked with gems or a diamond engagement ring. They are RP devices, or I hope they will be used as such, but don't affect game play.

Convenience items have me a bit worried, at least until we have a better idea what they will be. Small healing potions that heal less than a player made one is fine, but if they do the same amount of healing, then no. Same goes for crafting items. As long as they are the lowest possible rating for T1 & T2 (no T3 items of any type in cash shop) then fine, as they will always result in low low rated finished goods. The crafter gets to craft and make a little money, but he/she is better off hiring others who can provide better resource material and finished parts of higher quality ratings. This makes the cash shop items appealing to crafters who want to practice or design new recipes but doesn't want to waste better quality ingredients, and it does not cut out player middlemen for real final projects.

If GW can do this, and I don't think it is hard to accomplish, then a cash shop will work for PfO and not become the mess it is in more than 99% of all MMO's that use them. Players will pay, if they have the extra money, for items that make their avatars look nicer, minimize running from settlement to settlement, practice crafting without adversely affecting the markets, and aid in things like minor healing while exploring/PvE/harvesting/etc... Players will also know, up front, that it will always be better to have another player around to supply better goods and services. Win for GW and win for the players, especially those of us who want player interaction to be the goal of this crowdfunded & crowdforged game.

Nihimon, did I get correct what I think your sentiments are in your post?

Sorry, but the idea of bronzed Goblin balls made me chuckle :)

I am too, Nihimon. I am trying to talk the wife into playing, but she's never been a big MMO player. If I get a buddy account it just may encourage her to put down Angry Birds LOL

If add-ons are added to the cash shop, I agree with Decius - they need to cost more than what those of us who were part of the KS paid. A $10 add-on, if added to the cash shop, should be at least $15, and I'd prefer it be $20. Sorry to those who didn't know about the KS, but we who did and gave should have some perks, even if it is the add-on things at a substantial discount. That being said, Bringslite is correct, none are really needed to play PfO.

Ok, well then how about features such as

5) Character Rebuild (Respec) for money. - I can see this being very VERY popular, so much so that GW would probably put a cooldown on it. It would allow you to retrain a certain amount of your experience towards other training you currently also have access to. It wont change you from a Wizard into a Sorcerer, but it might allow you to go from a Blasty type Evoker to a Conjuerer type.

6) Character Re-name Tokens - Possibly gamebreaking if PCs are identified only be character name

7) Kingdom/Land/Settlement upgrades (Non-Cosmetic or mechanically beneficial)

8) Kingdom/Land/Settlement visual modification

9) Kingdom/Land/Settlement Hex Deeds (For actual real $$ purchase)

9) Player Character Titles (Baron, Duke, etc)

10) Experience Boosts

11) Kickstarter Boons

12) Uniquely Researched Spell/Special Attack Research Materials (For players wishing to make their own, new spells or slotable attacks)

13) Mini-Pets - Non combat functional

14) Exotic Mounts, animal companion skins

15) Opening a Chartered Company - Meaning each guild (Post EE) will cost some amount of "coin" to activate.

#5 - first #9: No

Second #9 - is a Kickstarter add-on, and as such should not be offered to those who weren't part of the kickstarter or the post-Kickstarter donation periods.

#10 - #15: No, especially #11 for the above reason.

I understand GW's need for more cash flow, but the cash shop should not be selling anything that gives either advantages or items that the KS donors paid for - those are our's for donating to the crowdfunding.

I did say if desired, but I see I wasn't clear - I meant desired by the crowdforgers as a whole (I really don't think it would fly, just threw it out there). You will notice I made it rather obvious that I am against anything that gives any advantage. I agree if a person would use it to hide that they are unsociable in groups then it is an advantage and doesn't belong there. Sorry for the confusion.

That's right, we are going to speculate, and complain about other models we have seen in other games, and be all anal about how we want do give Goblin Works, our money.

I figure what better way for your company to understand how their target audience wants to spend their money on your product than by asking them?

A couple ideas to think about here.

1) Pay to Win

2) Lottery Tickets Keys

3) What products/services do you want to see

4) Cash shop Auction House

1) No

2) Hell No

3) Player designed adventures that the Dev team cleans up and makes fully compatible with the rest of PfO; minor items that have no effect on actual gameplay; real life swag (t-shirts, hats, mouse pads, etc...); character renaming if desired; small cosmetic changes (hair, eyes, skin) if a player crafter can't do those. Otherwise, nothing else. No chest/keys, no bonus items like a health potion +10 or a Longsword +50. Only items that cannot give any kind of advantage.

4) Absolutely Hell No

That is all :)

I may be wrong, but it looks like some posting here forget that:

1) PfO isn't WoW or EVE and Ryan has stated in blogs and posts he won't allow this to happen (see above post).

2) There is no game-wide AH. Markets are local in communities and settlements, so while it may be possible to exercise a monopoly over a single market or even a few, it will be much harder to do so game-wide given alignment and reputation restrictions on entering various markets, even with a cabal of a dozen players.

3) Gold farming, as in the typical Chinese convict labor making tons of game gold to be sold for real money isn't likely to happen in PfO, given its target audience is almost certainly too small to be worth the time and effort of gold-farmers and sellers. It will be years before PfO, after EE, to reach even the numbers EVE has playing that game. PfO is about, and for, a small, dedicated group of gamers.

4) The entire system discussed in the blogs that will be used for crafting has enough variables involved that the quality and quantity of raw materials will also hamper such actions. "Nodes" will not be stationary, thus can't be camped, Bandits will always be looking for targets, T1 resources can have varying quality values, etc...

5) Economic warfare is possible, so an attempt to corner the market on certain goods or resources is allowed under the current rules, subject to revision of course, especially if a spy does this in Settlement A as a prelude to Settlement B declaring war on A to prevent Settlement A from building the needed weapons of war. How does anyone, even a GM or a Dev know the whys and wherefores of any such action until it has played out? Killing another player because you suspect him/her is doing it to gold-farm, as Nihimon stated, is a good way to get yourself banned, especially if you do it repeatedly, simply because you don't know what they are truly doing. The Devs and GMs will be able, after investigating it, to determine if the actions are gold-farming for a bannable reason or a legitimate in-game reason.

Given these factors, especially the small size of the player base in comparison to the games used in the posted examples and Ryan's determination not to have PfO ruined by those who would ruin it for sport or greed, I have to conclude both this thread and the thread dealing with "real life money buying in-game items" are just seeing issues where none really exist. GW, either via Ryan or any of the Devs, is on record as saying they will be watching things closely. I trust them to do this. They have seen what has ruined other MMO's and give every indication that they have learned from others' mistakes.

Personally I am not worried about any of this for the reasons Bringslite points out - anyone using real money (Skymetal) to purchase top-tier armor and weapons will have little hope of protecting much of their items should they loose a PvP. Add in that T3 gear is likely at least a year away from EE at the least, it will not be a problem as there will be plenty of ways to make in-game coin besides selling training time to those who have in-game coin but little spare money in real life.

Soldack also points out something the OP perhaps forgot - there is no endgame or "Win" in PfO. There is no cap, level or otherwise. If you want to train one "class" it'll take 2.5 years, but that isn't the end, as that PC can keep training in other skills. Factor in the non-core "classes" Ryan has stated he's like to see end up in PfO from the varios Advanced books, and you will spend well over a decade to learn every skill (possibly a couple of decades at least).

While there is an emphasis on PvP, PfO isn't a PvP game only. It has PvE, social interaction, exploration, crafting and a whole host of other Sandbox activities. Focusing on only one aspect ignores all the others and makes a character pretty much one dimensional in a game with many dimensions. Frankly I pity anyone who seeks to have the best gear possible, no matter how they acquire it, for the sole purpose of PvP. Eventually, like the WoW episode of South Park, a group will band together and defeat him/her, and given a limited threading, all that gear is suddenly just armor and one weapon. Better to embrace all of the game and see where it takes you.

Lastly, I am confident that Ryan learned from his tenure over at CCP and how EVE was run to learn from their mistakes. While PLEX selling over there does lead to some issues, the threading concept helps remove a big part of those issues. Even if Player A sells enough Skymetal (experience time cards) to be able to buy the best gear, as noted, it isn't likely to be threaded - you need threads to bind points, and top tier gear requires a lot of threads. This, to me, means GW is already looking at how to keep RL money from having too great a factor on in-game play. So, I salute GW on doing what they are to make the subject of this thread moot.

Avena, I am not aware of any skills that would allow this. Handle Animal and Animal Empathy wouldn't give the result you are looking for, and as their names imply, they only work on natural animals. Monstrous creatures can't be influenced by them, not even monstrous mounts. I suppose it may be possible for PfO to include something that would, but it isn't part of PFRPG Core. For what you are looking to do, as far as I know, only spells will accomplish it.

As for non-common and exotic races, I hope some do get added, but down the line once all the advanced classes are added. A Tengu Ninja or Samurai would be awesome, or a Rat Folk or Cat Folk Rogue, or even a Kobold Rogue or Fighter (tail whip is cool, and natural stealth very helpful). Heck, a Dhampire Undead Hunter (Paladin or Cleric, or maybe a Wizard [Necromancer who uses his/her skills to put down Undead] or Undead bloodline Sorcerer that does the same as the Wizard, not to mention an Inquisitor) would also be a very cool combo. My only hope, as stated above is that the various "non-Core" classes get added first (though I won't miss Gunslinger if it is left out, but that is personal preference) before any race from the Advanced race Guide is introduced. Just MHO, but I'd like to see versatility for the core races first.

Given GW's desire to have PfO last a long, long time, there will be plenty of time to introduce as much of PFRPG as they are allowed to do so given the OGL limitations. I think they will do just that, but it will likely take some time, but hey, I plan on spending two-and-a-half years working on my Wizard alone :)