I agree would be nice to get all the core races in.
Now you just have to convince the Devs to include this as an option to the next Crowdforging poll. ;)
I will be playing a Gnome aww yeah!
Goblin Squad Member
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I concur. Of all the things that should be available for play at the outset, races tops the list. Mounts/Fast travel doesn't affect my initial choice when beginning to play. pNPCs (personal NPCs aka Pets) have no real affect either, though it would be preferable to have pNPCs an available option for those classes which have them as integral class features. Still, because it is a classless system and 'class' skills and features are based on skill choice and progression, the game design can be updated in a more modular fashion and pNPCs can be folded in to the skill tree easily enough when it's added. The available pantheon definitely has an impact on beginning play choices, but not as big of an impact as available races. When the expanded pantheon is added, it is feasible to include an option that allows a PC to change the deity it follows, as long as it is within one step of the current alignment, or some sort of game mechanic that allows for a change. It is somewhat awkward, depending on how it's implemented, but not nearly as awkward as not5 having all of the core races available at the outset. With the other options, you can continue playing the same PC you've started with, but with races you'd have to start over with the new race. Your PC can't simply change to another race when another core race becomes available.
Having all of the core races available at the outset is far more important than any other crowdforging option thus far presrnted.
Tieflings and Aasimar should be in as well, at least if you ask me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I concur. Of all the things that should be available for play at the outset, races tops the list. Mounts/Fast travel doesn't affect my initial choice when beginning to play. pNPCs (personal NPCs aka Pets) have no real affect either, though it would be preferable to have pNPCs an available option for those classes which have them as integral class features. Still, because it is a classless system and 'class' skills and features are based on skill choice and progression, the game design can be updated in a more modular fashion and pNPCs can be folded in to the skill tree easily enough when it's added. The available pantheon definitely has an impact on beginning play choices, but not as big of an impact as available races. When the expanded pantheon is added, it is feasible to include an option that allows a PC to change the deity it follows, as long as it is within one step of the current alignment, or some sort of game mechanic that allows for a change. It is somewhat awkward, depending on how it's implemented, but not nearly as awkward as not5 having all of the core races available at the outset. With the other options, you can continue playing the same PC you've started with, but with races you'd have to start over with the new race. Your PC can't simply change to another race when another core race becomes available.
Having all of the core races available at the outset is far more important than any other crowdforging option thus far presrnted.
This basically sums up how I feel about this issue.
First priority should be on getting the core races into the game, second should be pets.|
Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that having all of the core races should be considered a higher priority than anything else that been proposed by GW.
Honestly, I just hope that when polls are asking for what to prioritize next, they are asking what we want them to do FIRST, not what we want them to make PERIOD.
I think the "pets" system should be developed before the fast travel system, because I think it could use more time to be polished. However, I would expect BOTH to be implemented by Early Release, at least in some limited fashion.
I do wish I had a better idea of how, exactly, the priority of development will change things.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt we will be seeing all races at the EE, as the kickstarter didn't blow up, they reached the mark plus a little bit, They'll probably walk away with $8-900,000 for development. We got a larger development team for a faster release and gnomes.
If GW starts up a new funding system, like RSI, and sets milestones and deadlines, we might see something. As it stands now there will be no half-orc, half-elf, or halflings at the start of EE.
If you participate in the EE you are acknowledging that you are playing an unfinished game. From Ryan's postings, I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed with the EE release because they don't realize what they are getting into.
If you want to play a 'complete' game, wait until Open Enrollment.
If you can't handle the thought of not starting at the very beginning of the game, buck up and lower your expectations. The more things you want, the more you will be disappointed when they are missing. That doesn't mean stop discussing/requesting things, but don't expect your requests to make it into the game.
I'm anticipating a large number of 'We told you so' responses to the ragequit posts between EE and OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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'limited' implies that the stuff is there, but not available.
From what I have read(99% of what's been released), everything won't be being 'turned on' as EE progresses, some things won't even be created yet. The EE release will be a playable game, not the complete picture, thus 'Incomplete'.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Don't we understand that worldbuilding is a pretty hefty task for them already?
Recommend we let the team proceed according to their project plan in the order they have decided is most efficient and leave off our prioritizing everything else for them.
They had a decision point for us to weigh in on and that is mounts, pets, and gods. Our prioritization should focus only on that for now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with Being and Valkenr. Most things will be unfinished when EE starts, it doesn't make sense to demand that all races be implemented prior to EE. That could delay the start of EE or take away from things that, if left unfinished, might make the game unplayable. Let Goblinworks follow the rough schedule they've laid out for themselves and enjoy the choices they are giving us.
On the subject of races. I believe it's been stated that you will be able to choose say a half elf race during EE, but the art won't be in for it initially and will be added as EE progresses. That at least will let the players choose which race they wants without having to make another character when they do add the other races.
I'd rather see all the "class" abilities (using the term advisedly as there will be no classes per se) added before additional races. Then the crafting system. Then more races.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look: everyone in an orchestra has to follow the sheet music coordinated by the maestro, but even the maestro has to follow the composer, or in this case the lead designer. The project manager has to understand what talent they have to work with and how much time that talent has, define the scope for each and apply them in the most effective and coordinated manner.
Doing the wrong things first will have them spinning their wheels in one part of the team while other parts of the team are waitng for something else to happen.
They need a place for the races to inhabit and crafting to happen, and stuff to craft with and resources to work and before that the system architecture has to be designed and set in place before they can even think about building the backend database, and before they can build that databases there must be many complex systems fully designed and detailed.
Once they know all the datatypes and field names and how they all interrelate then they can build the prototype database and attach the first client to it. The art assets they know will be there can be worked on while all that is going on, but really there have to be limits on what all they can be working on at any given time.
The world isn't going to spring forth fully formed like Athena from the forehead of Zeus, so we need to pull back from assigning them our priorities which will pretty much vary with each individual crowdforger posting.
This blog post doesn't have that much information, but it gives you an idea of what to expect from Early Enrollment
I got that link from this Thread Lots of information linked in this thread.
I just hope that Half-Elves will be in the game at release (or even open beta). :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I doubt we will be seeing all races at the EE, as the kickstarter didn't blow up, they reached the mark plus a little bit, They'll probably walk away with $8-900,000 for development. We got a larger development team for a faster release and gnomes.
If GW starts up a new funding system, like RSI, and sets milestones and deadlines, we might see something. As it stands now there will be no half-orc, half-elf, or halflings at the start of EE.
If you participate in the EE you are acknowledging that you are playing an unfinished game. From Ryan's postings, I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed with the EE release because they don't realize what they are getting into.
If you want to play a 'complete' game, wait until Open Enrollment.
If you can't handle the thought of not starting at the very beginning of the game, buck up and lower your expectations. The more things you want, the more you will be disappointed when they are missing. That doesn't mean stop discussing/requesting things, but don't expect your requests to make it into the game.
I'm anticipating a large number of 'We told you so' responses to the ragequit posts between EE and OE.
Well said. It is incumbent upon both sides of the Crowdforging process to inform and to be informed, in order that the process work optimally.
GW is going to have to do an expert job of managing expectations often and regularly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed. All 7 core races should be playable first.
On the topic of additional races: I personally believe that these should be available, but purchase only. My reasons for this is that it keeps rarer races more, well... Rare, and it can help the game move to a more "free to play" model. Someday in the future.
So races like goblin and kobold and Kitsune can be implemented :)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Agreed. All 7 core races should be playable first.
On the topic of additional races: I personally believe that these should be available, but purchase only. My reasons for this is that it keeps rarer races more, well... Rare, and it can help the game move to a more "free to play" model. Someday in the future.
So races like goblin and kobold and Kitsune can be implemented :)
I would actually like to see non-standard races be something you unlock rather than be something that is purchasable. I would be ok with purchasable, but if you really want non-standard races being rare make them an unlock after some amount of gameplay or game achievements or something.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to point out, that different parts of the designers work on different parts of the game. So the character designers work on their stuff, while others make sure that gravity works and tomorrow follows today.
So should I infer that you don't think they all work from the same tight plan and packed schedule?
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Goblin Squad Member
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....I would actually like to see non-standard races be something you unlock rather than be something that is purchasable. I would be ok with purchasable, but if you really want non-standard races being rare make them an unlock after some amount of gameplay or game achievements or something.
I agree with you on that. What I think it comes down to is where Goblinworks chooses to take PFO. With purchasable races, it would make them more exclusive than the initial races, and earn them more money (allowing F2P), however this means more dedicated players would only have the option of spending money on the game to get additional races.
If they were unlockable, it would only allow more experienced players to play additional races (not necessarily a bad thing), but it may push away new players when they get annoyed at the inability to play the race they want.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps you could unlock the ability to create a character of a non-standard race with game-play (not necessarily difficult, especially with help from friends,) and then use up, say, a few levels of skill training as well. (Not that you have to use the time, but instead of training skill levels you spend them on the race.)
This way, you could either put in a somewhat hefty amount of time to buy the skill-training kits in-game to convert into the race, or you could simply buy them from GW and use them for the race directly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As much as I would like to start my Druid with her companion from day 1, I recognize I can find and bond with an animal later. It is much less desirable to change race after starting a character. I do not know the developing process, and I do not know if asking for all core races is equivalent to the other options on crowdforging poll #2. That being said I would fully support this as an option.
Even though my race is already included, and I want to play an animal companion class, I want to see my friends be able to make the characters they want to be from day 1.
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My only "concern" about certain races being unavailable at the onset would be with name reservations. Let's say you want to reserve a name for a Half-Orc or Halfing, do you have to make a placeholder with a race that is available? Or is the name you chosen simply reserved on your account until you choose to use it?
Other then that, my only hope would be that all races are available at the point where character progression is more solid and starts to matter. I'd hate falling behind other crowdforgers because I wanted to play a race that wasn't initially available
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Goblin Squad Member
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So should I infer that you don't think they all work from the same tight plan and packed schedule?I would like to point out, that different parts of the designers work on different parts of the game. So the character designers work on their stuff, while others make sure that gravity works and tomorrow follows today.
my simplified view here is that
-Some things (like races, mounts and extra deities) may be simple to design mechanically but require huge amounts of art and animation.-Other things (alignment and reputation, threading) require a lot of development work, testing and balancing but very little animation.
-Others still (mounted combat, formations? crafting?) may require both and could potentially have one group delaying the other.
-tweaking and balancing numbers can be done independent of art/animation and basic mechanics.
So, there could well be different teams focused on very different things at the same time despite being on the same overall plan and schedule (which is always part of the fun of being the manager...).
My impression is that the vote is really what order they should prioritize the art/animations (along with AI in the case of pets), as the basic design for mounts, pets and deities is probably already come a long way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I fully agree that all the core races should be in, they're a core aspect of Pathfinder and it's roots. I'm fine, however, with them being left out for Early Enrollment, as long as they're in by the actual launch.
True be told though, the core races bore me. I never play them given the choice, except for humans (oddly, I kind of relate to humans). Humans are also kind of necessary, as there will always be xenophobic players that don't want to play any of those "weird" races. Elves, dwarves, and orcs, and even gnome/halfling like characters have all been done to death though, we've seen them a thousand times over in MMOs, they're really no more exotic then humans at this point.
So, while I do think the core races should be in there, what I really want to see is the uncommon and rare races. Come goblins, kobolds, grippli, aasimar, and tieflings! Come tengu, catfolk, ratfolk, changlings, kisune, and vanaras!
Woo! SO many options! ...too bad it'll never happen.
Also, I've said this before, but I'd also like to see some template options we can apply to our characters. That'd be neat, I want a werewolf.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, while I do think the core races should be in there, what I really want to see is the uncommon and rare races. Come goblins, kobolds, grippli, aasimar, and tieflings! Come tengu, catfolk, ratfolk, changlings, kisune, and vanaras!
Woo! SO many options! ...too bad it'll never happen.
The Living Greyhawk Campaign introduced Kobold and Centaur player races shortly before the whole campaign was killed off by 4th Edition and the setting was moved from Greyhawk to the Realms. They added a bit of fun, especially Kobolds which were massively underpowered.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So should I infer that you don't think they all work from the same tight plan and packed schedule?I would like to point out, that different parts of the designers work on different parts of the game. So the character designers work on their stuff, while others make sure that gravity works and tomorrow follows today.
my simplified view here is that
-Some things (like races, mounts and extra deities) may be simple to design mechanically but require huge amounts of art and animation.
-Other things (alignment and reputation, threading) require a lot of development work, testing and balancing but very little animation.
-Others still (mounted combat, formations? crafting?) may require both and could potentially have one group delaying the other.
-tweaking and balancing numbers can be done independent of art/animation and basic mechanics.So, there could well be different teams focused on very different things at the same time despite being on the same overall plan and schedule (which is always part of the fun of being the manager...).
My impression is that the vote is really what order they should prioritize the art/animations (along with AI in the case of pets), as the basic design for mounts, pets and deities is probably already come a long way.
Yes thats pretty much my view as well, of course there is now way for us to now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Neadenil, Yep, I'm a big fan of kobolds, and the option to play a non-humanoid like a centaur in a MMO would be awesome. I've been wanting to play a centaur in an MMO since pretty much the first five minutes I played WoW.
I'm not really happy with how the pathfinder version of kobolds turned out though, true be told. Portraying them as dumb, shamanic, and evil, savages. (I don't get why people always think they're dumb, they don't have any racial penalties to Intelligence! The only reason they speak common poorly is because it's s second language for them...) My favorite version of kobolds is 3.5's kobolds as portrayed in Races of the Dragon (and another 3.5 manual, I forget what it's called though). Before I read those manuals I thought kobolds were lame too, but that made me a huge fan of them (also, Deekin).
In my current pathfinder campaign, I'm playing a kobold alchemist/gunslinger, he's pretty awesome...I'm probably getting off topic though.
While I do find the rare and uncommon races intersting, I would prefer that PFO stick to the core races. I am not looking to paint the developers into a corner with asking for the core races to be developed first. I just want to have the option to play what I want to play from the beginning of the game. I have pledged to the kickstarter and I get a reserved name, that name will not work on all races just one. How silly would it look for a gnome name on a dwarf? I mean they're close enough, right?
At one point, Ryan I believe, suggested that they may add the core races either before EE or shortly after allowing you to choose your race from among the core races. So you would get all the benefits, the +'s and such, but the art wouldn't be complete until further into EE. If they did this I imagine they would use the human template and once the race was ready they would patch the game and your characters appearance would then be correct. That way you wouldn't have to lose the time you put into the character.
That sounds to me like the.best way to handle it honestly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While it would be nice to have all the core races available at start, do realize what the poll was(you voted on a system, not an item). Systems (pet, mount, combat, crafting, etc.) are a priority, not items (races, weapons, armor, clothing, etc.). The systems must be created, implemented and tested. All the systems must work together before you add fluff. For testing you need a base line (humans) and a couple of variables (elves and dwarves). More than that is just fluff until its tested.
Having said that, I would rather see the mount/pet system before gnomes even.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree. The most important thing to develop is the game system itself, extra races (core or not) are not important if the gaming experience does not feel right. And to give a BAD example I´ll say that whatever Blizzard game you pick up, you start having fun from second one and it doesn´t ever stop... it´s a good game system that doesn´t bore you (like, for example I could not stand Warhammer Online) what is most important. Let the extra races suffer.
Immersion is also critical, and a feel of realism.
What I´m trying to say here is that what is important is what you feel from the game when playing it, and other things, due important, are very easily added, once you do it right with less features.