Goblin Squad Member
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@Neadenil, Yep, I'm a big fan of kobolds, and the option to play a non-humanoid like a centaur in a MMO would be awesome. I've been wanting to play a centaur in an MMO since pretty much the first five minutes I played WoW.
Let me guess, night elves ? I always hoped that they would implement such a form as a druid hero class...
For Pathfinder Online, such as body shape would require a lot of work.. well see.|
Goblin Squad Member
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@Neadenil, Yep, I'm a big fan of kobolds, and the option to play a non-humanoid like a centaur in a MMO would be awesome. I've been wanting to play a centaur in an MMO since pretty much the first five minutes I played WoW.
Getting slightly OT here:
The 3.5 centaurs became large at about level 6 if I recall correctly. This became an issue for player Centaurs who could not always fit in some places especially since "reduce" is limited to humanoids.
On the other hand it is probably good thing "enlarge" did not work on them as an enlarged large creature with a spiked chain would have had ludicrous reach.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree. The most important thing to develop is the game system itself, extra races (core or not) are not important if the gaming experience does not feel right. And to give a BAD example I´ll say that whatever Blizzard game you pick up, you start having fun from second one and it doesn´t ever stop... it´s a good game system that doesn´t bore you (like, for example I could not stand Warhammer Online) what is most important. Let the extra races suffer.
Immersion is also critical, and a feel of realism.
What I´m trying to say here is that what is important is what you feel from the game when playing it, and other things, due important, are very easily added, once you do it right with less features.
Without the core game there is nothing, in that we agree. Immersion though can be overcome with imagination and willingness. There is nothing immersive about a book but I can gt lost in a good story all the same. But a game is better the more believable it is I admit.
However I don't think having the seven core races is more significant than everything else: that just an absurd thing to say.
I wouldn't say it's the most important thing, but I think they should try to get at least the seven core races in there by the time the game goes live.
That said, so long as general game content doesn't suffer, I would love to see some more unusual races. I'm tired of being offered the same very human-looking races over and over. More unusual races like tieflings, aasimar, tengu, ratfolk, catfolk, or kitsune would be very fun to play.
Even more unusual races like centaurs would be really fun, but harder to implement. It *can* be done, as I know at least one MMO that never got very popular called Horizons actually had dragons as a playable race. Being quadrupedal, they had to do a lot of things differently than the standard bipedal races, though.
That also serves as another example that "cool" races alone don't draw players to a game. The game itself has to be worth playing, then additional features like that can be an additional incentive.
If they want to keep more unusual races buy-only and/or unlocked by certain achievements, that's fine, but having the option of additional races beyond the core is a selling point for me personally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe we should ask for an update one what IS going to be in the game for both EE & open release BEFORE we spend a lot of time arguing over what SHOULD be in the game at release.
I'm already feeling a bit disapointed with the choices they've given as they are all things they implied were already in the game at EE, not something we need to vote on when of if it gets added before release.
When asked why we were paying for CLOSED BETA we were told it wouldn't be a beta but a functional, non buggy game and the Early Enrolement was for us to build a society and balance content, not wait for that content and *hope* we're in one of the guilds they will allow to build the society via there landrush system while the rest twiddle there thumbs waiting for the game to get to the point it was indicated it would be at in Early Admission so they too can start building the society.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Summersnow: On the Beta (AKA Early Enrollment) as it was described on the blog...
Keeping the code clean allows Internet startups to have stable but feature-incomplete Beta phases. This way they can implement features while observing real customers.
-snip-
Slowly growing the player base is a great advantage, but we also want to get players involved before all the big features are locked in. The most important goal during Early Access Beta is the Crowdforging process.
We want the community to be involved directly in the features as they are being created and added to the game. Some of the player feedback will come from forums or direct email to and from the design team. Other feedback will be purely analytical - we will be able to track and see exactly how players are playing the game, and we hope to get some insight into what is fun for them.
I'd love to get this sort of information from day one, but it's not really useful data until players are enjoying themselves. That means we need all the basic systems in place and a reasonably bug-free, fun experience. We will prioritize those basic features first and implement them before Early Access. Monsters, fighting, questing, even crafting and PvP around basic player-owned structures will be available when we begin Early Access.
It's the higher level PvP play that will be implemented and then refined during Early Access Beta. We have some fantastic ideas on these features, but they need tuning based on how the player base uses them. The Early Access players will get to see that tuning happening and contribute to the process.
I have taken the liberty of bolding some specifically noteworthy portions, for those who feel deceived.
It has been explicitly stated that we will be going in before many features are implemented - only the basics will be there at the start of Beta. Frankly, I'm excited to see how each new feature changes the world as I play in it.
even crafting and PvP around basic player-owned structures will be available when we begin Early Access.
Oh, I missed the above when I read this the first time. That's good to know! I was under the impression that we weren't going to have guild structures at all until settlements were added. That's excellent. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd rather see all the "class" abilities (using the term advisedly as there will be no classes per se) added before additional races. Then the crafting system. Then more races.
I've suggested before they launch EE without any of the roles, and keep it that way until all core roles are ready for release. A deeper understanding of how roles work has only made this sound like an even better idea.
Just release with some arcane and divine spells, melee skills, ranged skills, light/medium/heavy armor skills and any core combat skills.
That is plenty for us to experiment around with while we wait for the roles to be released. I mean you want to play a paladin? Train a lot of melee and heavy armor and a bit of divine. Want to be a barbarian? Train the crap out of melee and a bit of medium armor.
You'll quickly meet the needed requirements for the first few levels when roles are released.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it would be cool to introduce the different races during Early Enrollment in the same order that the lore calls for the races showing up on Golarion.
I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with their decision to start out with a handful of races, and plan to add others based on player-interest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I´ll say that whatever Blizzard game you pick up, you start having fun from second one and it doesn´t ever stop... it´s a good game system that doesn´t bore you...
Ha, I've yet to play a Blizzard game where I don't get bored to death eventually, they are far too repetitive.
Let me guess, night elves ? I always hoped that they would implement such a form as a druid hero class...
Yep, night elf druid, first WoW character I ever made.
For Pathfinder Online, such as body shape would require a lot of work.. well see.
Yeah, centaurs can be difficult to implement, even in PnP. While they don't mechanically have a penalty to it, realistically centaurs just can't climb walls or even ladders, or at least not without extreme difficulty. And they're bulky, though not too bulky for dungeon crawling I think.
In an MMO, having something non-humanoid as a playable race would also mean having to recreate all new art assets for all their armor and such. While other humanoid races could mostly get away with simply rescaling and deforming existing art.Maybe we should ask for an update one what IS going to be in the game for both EE & open release BEFORE we spend a lot of time arguing over what SHOULD be in the game at release.
An update would be nice, but as far as I can tell Goblinworks has been pretty quiet since the pulled the polls down. Which to me is a good thing, as it probably means they're stopping for some proper thought and planning. Instead of rushing out community involvement polls with poorly defined information as the were previously.
Anyhow, I just want to clarify that my whimsy about including uncommon races is just wishful thinking. All the core races, on the other hand, are a must. Just, not a must for Early Enrollment.
Good gameplay and core classes are also a must. I'd like to think that the three things aren't mutually exclusive and that we don't have to sacrifice any one for the sake of the another. If we do have to...then I'd kind of want my money back...I'd rather see the game not done at all then not done right. I'm picky like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One of the things that people would probably like and could be done is a robust Character Creator. Its one of those things that they could do like the Pit Fighter program. If we had an online character generator that created models of characters for Pathfinder that we could use in both PnP and PFO possibly even linked to something like Figure Prints... You could do a Kickstarter for it next year when we have money again:)
That way we could get a dedicated character generator that can make custom races and include all the crazy races we love like say Goblins and print minatures for us...
Because Seriously who doesn't want to play a Goblin?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Maybe we should ask for an update one what IS going to be in the game for both EE & open release BEFORE we spend a lot of time arguing over what SHOULD be in the game at release.
Day One of Early Enrollment will be a Minimum Viable Product
The objective is to release the game as fast as possible. The means that the game we release has to have the smallest specification possible. Because we're offering a service, not a product, we iterate on that specification constantly so that the scope of the game is always enlarging.
As a player you can select the point where you feel the game has enough features to meet your needs and that's when you can start playing. The people who go in on Day One are going to be playing a very basic game, but it will be playable, and it will be fun. But there will only be about 4,500-5,000 people so it doesn't have to be very big, or have a lot of features.
The next month, it gets more features, and gets a little bigger. A little more complex. And so on - forever.
We have a very good idea of what kinds of things need to be put on the priority list at the outset:
* All the races in the core rulebook
* All the roles from the core rulebook
The order those things are developed will be Crowdforged. That way the community has visibility on the plan and they can estimate (roughly) when the content they want should be ready for inclusion in the game.
Once the races and roles from the core book are in, we can start talking about things from outside the core book. That will be Crowdforged too - again with the transparency objective.
Once we're a little bit further along in getting the team hired and basic systems built, we'll be able to share our definition of the Minimum Viable Product with the community but it will be some months yet before we're ready to take that step.
RyanD
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Hobbun - Until we have worked out the Minimum Viable Product specification I can't tell you what will be in the game on Day One of Early Enrollment.
Crafting is critical to the long-term success of the game but it is not necessarily critical to the first day of Early Enrollment. Once we get a better handle on what our tools can do and how much content we can deliver, we'll be able to share that info with the community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well GW also mentioned somewhere that a character will have an opportunity to change the race once in the future, to allow those that created characters before the race was implemented to get their chosen race without having to start all over. I definitely take an existing race as close to the race I want, then when the race I want comes available I will select it. GW has mentioned a few times that PFO won't be restricted to the core races, that other races from the Advance Race Guide would be added some time after release.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The art assets are likely to be the real limiting factor. The half-humans and halflings could all exist statwise but use the models for humans and gnomes, respectively. Pick build and colouration to get as close as you can, and then when the art for your actual race shows up, you get to switch over to it. It'd almost be like Goblinization Day from ShadowRun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I seem to recall that some racial packs included the various human ethnic groups. Generally speaking I don't play humans, but in an area like the River Kingdoms, a secondary Twin who is either Ulfen or Kellied might be interesting. Could someone confirm for me that ethnic human options will be a part of this game? Thanks in advance.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I seem to recall that some racial packs included the various human ethnic groups. Generally speaking I don't play humans, but in an area like the River Kingdoms, a secondary Twin who is either Ulfen or Kellied might be interesting. Could someone confirm for me that ethnic human options will be a part of this game? Thanks in advance.
$15 - Regional Trait PackPlayers can purchase Regional Traits Packs for their characters that give them background elements of coming from a specific country or region in Golarion. A Region Trait Pack will provide the character with an achievement
stating the country they hail from, a title, and a small mechanical effect, all based on the country of origin selected when the pack is used. Select one from: Absalom, Andoran, Cheliax, Five King’s Mountain, Galt, Katapesh,
Kyonin, Lands of the Linnorm Kings, Mwangi Expanse, Osirion, Qadira, Rahadoum, The Shackles, Taldor, Ustalav, and Varisia. One Regional Trait Pack is required per character. You may purchase this Add-On multiple times.
"Lands of the Linnorm Kings" = Ulfen
To look like one you just make your character tall and pale with light coloured eyes and hair. Kellids are kind of like Cimmerians; not quite as tall or as pale, but still plenty tough.|
Goblin Squad Member
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The art assets are likely to be the real limiting factor. The half-humans and halflings could all exist statwise but use the models for humans and gnomes, respectively. Pick build and colouration to get as close as you can, and then when the art for your actual race shows up, you get to switch over to it. It'd almost be like Goblinization Day from ShadowRun.
Art Assets will actually make Goblins, Orcs, Kobolds and Hobgoblins really easy to add to the game since a considerable amount of art assets will exist for them as logical things found in game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some races will be tricky to implement regardless of technical/programming issues just becasue of how they are played.
Drow may be a case in point. The Richterm NWN perpetual worlds hosted a lot of Drow players but they went out of their way to make the surface and underworld quite distinct with separate theme-park quests and hunting areas and very little reason to cross over.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I seem to recall that some racial packs included the various human ethnic groups. Generally speaking I don't play humans, but in an area like the River Kingdoms, a secondary Twin who is either Ulfen or Kellied might be interesting. Could someone confirm for me that ethnic human options will be a part of this game? Thanks in advance.
$15 - Regional Trait PackPlayers can purchase Regional Traits Packs for their characters that give them background elements of coming from a specific country or region in Golarion. A Region Trait Pack will provide the character with an achievement
stating the country they hail from, a title, and a small mechanical effect, all based on the country of origin selected when the pack is used. Select one from: Absalom, Andoran, Cheliax, Five King’s Mountain, Galt, Katapesh,
Kyonin, Lands of the Linnorm Kings, Mwangi Expanse, Osirion, Qadira, Rahadoum, The Shackles, Taldor, Ustalav, and Varisia. One Regional Trait Pack is required per character. You may purchase this Add-On multiple times.
"Lands of the Linnorm Kings" = Ulfen
To look like one you just make your character tall and pale with light coloured eyes and hair. Kellids are kind of like Cimmerians; not quite as tall or as pale, but still plenty tough.
Thank you Keovar. I recall that now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some races will be tricky to implement regardless of technical/programming issues just becasue of how they are played.
Drow may be a case in point. The Richterm NWN perpetual worlds hosted a lot of Drow players but they went out of their way to make the surface and underworld quite distinct with separate theme-park quests and hunting areas and very little reason to cross over.
Oh geez, not drow. When going down the list of playable races to add, I hope drow appears very last on that list. I'm just sick of drow. If they really need to appease drow fans, just make black and blue skin color options for elves...