if we do this I suggest a broader range of simulated rolls than the 9, 10, 11 the original beastmas used. maybe 5, 10, 15
How did an archer obliterate all those beasts without running into a single use of Fickle Winds?
It's buried in the fight against the Pit Fiend:
(Point of law for zen archers to remember and mention in a non-confrontational manner if and when necessary: a wind wall has to be vertical. Not horizonal, not diagonal. The fiend could make it a cylinder or square, but not a cube or a cone. This means it can’t close off the top or bottom with arrow-negating wind. In the cave the bottom might be closed by rock, but there is likely a 10’ wide aperture at the top: were One up there, he’d be looking down a 90’ wind tunnel at the devil. For a 3rd level spell this is still a formidable obstacle to archers...but it’s not the 100% arrow-negator it’s sometimes presented as being.)
Even with Fickle Winds, it's still a cylinder. So..fish in a barrel, I guess.
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Dont think its a legitimate win. The pit fiends use of wish was weak and stupid.
Not characteristic of the spell or the intelligence/longevity/pure evilness of the creature using it.
The notion of this showdown is that this is representing the honor of your entire race, you think a pit fiend is going to waste a wish on a puff of air? You have seriously underestimated the imagination and resourcefulness of the best hell has to offer.
Fix the strawman pit fiend first, then even the zen archer goes down.
Effectively the zen archer got a free wish and used it to wish a pit fiend was too dumb to even slow him down.
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Dont think its a legitimate win. The pit fiends use of wish was weak and stupid.
Not characteristic of the spell or the intelligence/longevity/pure evilness of the creature using it.
The notion of this showdown is that this is representing the honor of your entire race, you think a pit fiend is going to waste a wish on a puff of air? You have seriously underestimated the imagination and resourcefulness of the best hell has to offer.
Fix the strawman pit fiend first, then even the zen archer goes down.
Effectively the zen archer got a free wish and used it to wish a pit fiend was too dumb to even slow him down.
Maybe you can submit a build and show us how it's done?
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What i'm saying is that I don't even believe the guy who says he did it could have pulled it off without grossly misinterpreting the wish of a pit fiend.
I'm not interested in trying to do it. IMHO it hasnt even been done yet.
You know. I get it. Its a great build. Its a fun thought experiment. If there were a 26 mile marathon of evards black tentacles between this character and the top 6 worst enemies the system has to offer, clearly this character will win that race with his hands tied behind his back... Fantastic. Golf clap.
But does it stand up to scrutiny? Does this guy seriously think he can shrug off a pit fiend's wish? I don't have to tell you how it can be done. I can sure has heck say that shrugging off a wish from a pit fiend isnt going to be as smooth as this guy indicates.
Not in any game I run anyway. If the maximum power of the wish spell is 'whatever wont accomplish a dang thing at all' then he shouldnt even need to worry about being so awesome. If his gm rules that a wish spell from the smartest most powerful evil being hell has to offer cant slow him down then I dont know that anything should even consider standing in his way. In my opinion thats not a legitimate ruling on how wish works. I'd be hard pressed to find a gm who looked at the pit fiend fight and just threw in the towel. "Yep. He's bad@ass. I guess we can all go home now."
The strawman in this scenario is specifically the wish. This guy gives you 5 examples of wishes that wouldnt work and assumes by extension that no wish would work... it's like saying 'these 7 fat men can't outrun my dog, therefore my dog is faster than every person on the planet! Might help you sleep better at night but doesn't make it true.
I dont place value in being able to build megadamage unkillamonsters. This is not what gaming means to me. But this guy pretends he has no achilles heel and his handling of a wish implies that even wish spells are impotent to curb his wrath. Well if there isnt a wish in the universe that can even slow you down then whats the point. Its not my job to show how its done and I hold no stock in being able to do it.
Its my job to decide if his assumptions on how he did it are valid and I dont think they are. Tell me Gygax wouldnt call BS on this guys 'wish immunity'... Tell me this scenario would play out uncontested in a PFS approved scenario. I just dont see it.
I'm not going to bother doing it, but i'll tell you what. If you come up with a way to do it you'd be the first because in my mind this guy didn't get the job done.
I know all you minmaxin optimizers like to have your little showdowns of who's the most optimized optimizers in optimizerland, but if this gauntlet is the measure of your success (and it's an awesome gauntlet to be sure) then I just want to go down as saying its a gauntlet that I dont think the zen archer made it halfway through.
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If the challenge didnt have a pit fiend in it I probably wouldnt even be talking here. But the second someone starts saying "I have a build thats so badashe that no wish in the world can harm me"... I cant help it. I gotta say something.
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The link in the OP is broken. I'd like to see it or the 5 fail wishes that were made before I'd come up with a possible wish.
Ultimately though I would have thought that a wish of 'I am immune to any arrow used by THAT monk' would suffice.
Yes this is a 'more powerful version' of what a wish normally entails but Im sure that the ultimate representative of a race of immortal extremely organised and intelligent beings could come up with some kind of loop hole like that ... its what they DO.
Why cant he use the wish to create a spherical wind wall? Im sure that the wish could alter it so. Wind Wall is a 3rd level spell - Altering the shape of it to turn it into a sphere call it a +3 meta magic feat - ta da 6th level spell effect.
Or use the ability of a wish to duplicate any spell - do Control Winds = windstorm (75mph+) and then apply ectoplasmic meta magic to it so that missile fire is impossible in any form or plane. Thats not too big a use of wish and 100% legal.
Or bring into effect a contingency that makes him and the Monk swap places once the arrows fly, so that the Monk ends up shooting himself?
Or a really sneaky one - Wishing to swap the battle conditions for the Shoggoth's one.
But if there was a GM involved this fight could and would not happen because any player that claims to be able to do this should be told ok build your character from Level 1 - we will run this test when you hit level 20 assuming to dont die before hand due to sub par choices you have to make along the way as you attempt to build this as optimal as possible.
Its an easy exercise to say I can make a build that kill this one mob under the most optimal conditions and with all the loot I want, but try playing to get to that point. Wont happen.
Im not even sure why the conditions for these fights are laid out as stated. Why not 1000' lit sphere of free space for all of them? Or all underwater? or all in pitch dark in a 10x10 room with the mob chained to the Monk? Or in a dense forest with no line of sight more than 10'?
What exactly are we trying to prove here?
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If the challenge didnt have a pit fiend in it I probably wouldnt even be talking here. But the second someone starts saying "I have a build thats so badashe that no wish in the world can harm me"... I cant help it. I gotta say something.
you take yourself and your pit fiends way to seriously. Take the guide for what it is - an example of how you can build a Zen Archer. If your big issue is with the Pit Fiend I can only assume you didn't read the guide are just hating for the sake of hating.
Here's a working link. Seems to still be up and running if you wanna have a look
You assume whatever makes you feel better but my argument stands.
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Here's a working link. Seems to still be up and running if you wanna have a look
You assume whatever makes you feel better but my argument stands.
Thank you.
(Im assuming that the last part was directed to the poster immediately above? Or was it to me?)
No that second part was for Krodjin
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If you take a look at his build, there huge are problems. I'm looking at the level 20 build, and first off, his 14/14/14/7/17/7 (20 point buy) is invalid. Assuming that as a human, he put his +2 into Wisdom, he only spent 14. If he put his +2 into any one of his physical traits, he'd end up with 17 out of 20 spent.
Redacted Paragraph:Secondly, he can't take both the Qinggong Monk and Zen Archer archetypes together, as they both replace Diamond Body, Still Mind and Tongue of the Sun and Moon.
Thirdly, his feats are all screwed up. As a level 20 qinggong/zen archer (if it were even valid) human monk, he should have 23 feats, not 21 as listed, and... Stunning Fist is not a special attack and is therefore not a valid selection for Ability Focus.
Redacted Paragraph:In his gear, he'd have to have Bracers of Armour +8, not a Vest of Armour +8 (unless it was custom allowed by his GM), he's got a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 and a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 (he cannot wear both, so this must be a custom item), a Ring of Protection +5 (and counterspells; not sure where he got this secondary ability added in) Ring of Evasion (and counterspells; same as before, unless it's custom), and unless the Vest of Armour +8 is allowed by his GM, the Greater Bracers of Archery wouldn't be valid.
His skills and attributes are off, too. His Wisdom only reaches to 32 (not +38), his Fly would only be at +9 (not +17), Heal is +16 (not +17), Perception is +40 (not +41), Sense Motive is +16 (not +17) - he's got all these unaccounted for luck bonuses... And with his +5 hit points every level (choosing skill points so that those line up properly), he's averaging 5.65 hit points per level on a d8 roll. This armour class only reaches to 52 (not 53) with ki, 48 without. That, and his ki pool only goes up to 32, not 33. Plus, no darkvision.
Redacted Paragraph:He only picked 5 of his 11 ki powers so far as I can tell; Ki Arrow, High Jump (bringing his jump to +59, not +71), Perfect Self, Quivering Palm and Diamond Soul. He's 6 short.
Unless this is a poor conversion from 3.5 material, this doesn't work, and if it is, it should be noted.
Here's the character in full (courtesy of Hero Lab), with Haste, Deadly Aim, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, High Jump, Ki Defense, Mantis Style and Point Blank Shot all activated.
Porpentine's Monk
Human Monk (Zen Archer, Qinggong Monk) 20
LN Medium Outsider (augmented humanoid, human)
Init +13; Senses Perception +40
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Defense
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AC 52, touch 44, flat-footed 40 (+8 armor, +7 Dex, +5 deflection, +5 dodge)
hp 233 (20d8+120)
Fort +24, Ref +28, Will +29
DR 10/chaotic; SR 30
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Offense
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Speed 110 ft.
Melee Cold Iron Brass knuckles +23/+23/+18/+13 (1d3+7/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +23/+23/+18/+13 (2d10+7/x2)
Ranged +5 Merciful Composite longbow (Str +0) +32/+32/+27/+22 (1d8+17+1d6 non-lethal/19-20/x3)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3, ki focus bow, ki strike, adamantine, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic, trick shot, zen archery
Spell-Like Abilities Ki Arrow (1 Ki)
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 24, Con 20, Int 9, Wis 32, Cha 7
Base Atk +15; CMB +22; CMD 71
Feats Ability Focus (-Choose-), Deadly Aim -4/+8, Defensive Combat Training, Hammer the Gap, Improved Critical (Longbow), Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Vital Strike, Lightning Reflexes, Mantis Style, Perfect Strike (3d20) (20/day), Pinpoint Targeting, Point Blank Master (Longbow), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Stunning Fist (21/day) (DC 33), Toughness +20, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Traits Outlander - Exile, Resilient
Skills Acrobatics +27 (+59 jump), Appraise +0, Bluff -1, Climb +8, Diplomacy -1, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +8, Fly +9, Heal +15, Intimidate -1, Knowledge (planes) +20, Perception +40, Ride +8, Sense Motive +16, Stealth +30, Survival +12, Swim +8
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus +16, fast movement (+80'), ki archery, ki arrows, ki defense, ki pool, merciful, monk vows (vow of cleanliness [+4 ki], vow of fasting [+3 ki], vow of truth [+4 ki]), reflexive shot, unarmed strike (2d10)
Combat Gear Ring of counterspells, Holy water (4); Other Gear +5 Merciful Composite longbow (Str +0), Arrows (300), Blunt arrows (40), Cold Iron Brass knuckles, Smoke arrows (5), Belt of physical perfection +6, Boots of speed (10 rounds/day), Bottle of air, Bracers of archery, greater, Bracers of armor +8, Broom of flying (9 hours/day), Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Handy haversack (69 @ 48.75 lbs), Headband of inspired wisdom +6, Headband of vast intelligence +2 (Knowledge [plane, Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun torch, Ioun torch, Manual of gainful exercise +4, Manual of quickness of action +4, Ring of evasion, Ring of protection +5, Stone of good luck (Luckstone), Tome of understanding +4, Backpack, masterwork (empty), Monk's outfit (19), Soap, Waterskin, Weapon cord, Weapon cord, 150 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +16 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Damage Reduction (10/chaotic) You have Damage Reduction against all except Chaotic attacks.
Deadly Aim -4/+8 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Fast Movement (+80') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +18/+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
High Jump (+40) +40 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Improved Precise Shot Ignore AC bonuses and miss chance from anything less than total cover/concealment.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ioun torch This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it. It retains the ability to float and orbit, and allows the bearer to carry light and still have his hands free. It may be in any crystalline shape common to ioun stones (ellipsoid, prism, sphere, and so on).
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, continual flame, creator must be 12th level; Cost 62 gp, 5 sp
Ioun torch This item is merely a burned out, dull gray ioun stone with a continual flame spell cast upon it. It retains the ability to float and orbit, and allows the bearer to carry light and still have his hands free. It may be in any crystalline shape common to ioun stones (ellipsoid, prism, sphere, and so on).
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, continual flame, creator must be 12th level; Cost 62 gp, 5 sp
Ki Archery (Su) 1 Ki point: +50' range increment for bows.
Ki Arrow (1 Ki) (Sp) Costs 1 ki point to activate.
Ki Arrows (Su) 1 Ki point: bow deals the same damage as unarmed strike.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Focus Bow (Su) You can apply special Ki attacks to your arrows.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Adamantine (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as adamantine to for DR and hardness.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Mantis Style Gain +1 use of Stunning Fist per day, and increase stunning fist DC by +2
Merciful +1d6 damage, but all damage is nonlethal.
Perfect Self The monk becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk's creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/chaotic
Perfect Strike (3d20) (20/day) With certain weapons, roll twice, higher is attack, lower is confirmation roll.
Pinpoint Targeting Standard action (may not move this round): target of your ranged attack loses armor, natural armor and shield bonuses to AC.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Quivering Palm (1/day) (Su) Costs 2 ki points to activate.
The monk can set up vibrations within the body of another creature that can thereafter be fatal if the monk so desires. He can use this quivering palm attack once per day, and he must announce his intent befor
Reflexive Shot (Ex) Make AoO with bow.
Ring of counterspells Counters this spell when it's cast on you.
Ring of evasion No damage if you succeed on a Reflex save for half damage.
Spell Resistance (30) You have Spell Resistance.
Stunning Fist (21/day) (DC 33) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Trick Shot (Su) 1-3 Ki points: ignore varying amounts of cover or concealment.
Unarmed Strike (2d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Vow of Cleanliness (+4 Ki) A monk undertaking this vow must wash daily. He must change into fresh clothes daily or shortly after his robes become dirty. His appearance must be kept immaculate, including either neatly braiding or shaving off his hair (and, for male monks, maint
Vow of Fasting (+3 Ki) The monk eats nothing but rice (or a similar bland, staple food) and drinks nothing but water. On certain days (usually once per month or on a religious holiday), he may eat a small portion of other simple, bland food to maintain proper nutrition. Th
Vow of Truth (+4 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Weapon cord Attached weapon can be recovered as a swift action.
Weapon cord Attached weapon can be recovered as a swift action.
Zen Archery (Su) Use WIS instead of DEX for ranged attacks with a bow.
Errors: Attribute points underspent by 3 or 6; short 1 bonus monk feat; Ability Focus has no option chosen; Redacted section: too many rings (if you don't allow the custom rings); too many bracers (if you don't allow the custom vest); too many headbands (if you don't allow the custom headband); short 6 ki powers; Diamond Body, Still Mind and Tongue of the Sun and Moon are all replaced by more than one archetype.
Hero Lab® and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
This does not speak well for the entire combat setup. Not to mention that his first hit against the Shoggoth with his Improved Vital Strike (no crit) will only do 47 damage maximum, reduced to 37 after the Shoggoth's damage reduction. His next flurry could do a maximum of 248 damage on eight hits with no criticals, not seven (only 217, reduced to 147 with the Shoggoth's DR on seven hits). He could get up to a total of 744 damage on all 8 hits if they're all critical successes, though, reduced to 664 after damage reduction.
The rest of the battles become suspect...
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"Or use the ability of a wish to duplicate any spell - do Control Winds = windstorm (75mph+) and then apply ectoplasmic meta magic to it so that missile fire is impossible in any form or plane. Thats not too big a use of wish and 100% legal."
Just to clarify This spell is the zen monk killer because under the description of the spell and the environmental effects :
1) the spell can be set to be a downdraft (so air from above is forced down and out. No standing above shooting down any attempt to do so will force the monk back out the side (if he fails) and will certainly send his arrows outwards regardless.
2) at wind level 3 or above (windstorm = 51mph+) ranged fire is *impossible*. The Pit fiend being CL18 can easily achieve this setting. It also can easily occupy the entire room. If through some freak of miss read ability the zen Archer can make his arrows act like Siege weapons then the Pit Fiend would set the wind to Tornado (175+) which makes even Siege weapon fire impossible.
(Note please: not a negative to hit, not a cover save, but flat out black and white *impossible*)
Applying Ectoplasmic allows it to stop ghost touch arrows or other tricks of etherealness or incorporeal.
The Pit fiend can constrict the radius of safe air to only his reach so if the Zen archer wishes to be able to shoot him he needs to get into melee range of the Pit Fiend.
So assuming this happens then what can the Zen Archer do?
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Sad truth is that a pit fiend has an int of 26.
I'm not saying every pit fiend is smarter than elminster.
But based on their stats they are smarter than me, smarter than you, smarter than 99.99% of the people on the globe. The scenario specifically said the pitfiend was fully aware of the capabilities of the zen archer before the fight even started, and he's basically the bobby fisher of making powerful people realize they're in a bad way. You can be sad panda all you want. You give the hellspawn king bobby fisher of pain and suffering a wish spell and enough time to get it off... You can expect the next 12 seconds of your life to be worse than you can possibly imagine. Anything less and you're giving yourself a huge break, and if you only win the fight because you've decided the hellspawn king bobby fisher of pain and suffering has decided to have the brains and imagination of a fish this afternoon well thats not exactly something to be proud of.
Is it an awesome powergamer optimizer build? Sure. Could I do better? Probably not. Can anyone else do better? Who knows. Give it a try. Does his build live up to the hype that he himself played it up to be? Not by a long road.
See my dementedly long post. The build isn't even legal.
I was expecting these uber builds to top the monk.
Nope, I got ways to shut down the monk.
"The winning move... Is not to end up in a scenario where you pissed off all of those diabolical creatures. I mean really?"
EDIT: And I realized: So what if you manage to kill ALL of them (even though it seems the build is illegal now)? You probably will have to deal with an army because hey: That guy owed me money, and I enjoyed having a slave for stuff.
See my dementedly long post. The build isn't even legal.It is. Qinggong stacks with every other archetype because you can cherry pick what you want to replace. That's why your ki ability count is incorrect as well.
As for your above post and the item cost, they're perfectly fine as well. Take "ring of protection+5 & counterspells (56,000gp; greater dispel 660gp)" for example: ring of prot +5 = 50k gp. ring of counterspells = 4k gp. To add a ring of counterspells on top of another item = cost x 1.5 = 6k. Total 50k + 6k = 56k.
As you by now surely understand, you've made several other incorrect assumptions as well.
Even with your (much appreciated) corrections, he's still over on certain stats, under on others, way overestimating the damage, etc... Still qualifying it as an illegal build.
For example, his hit claims:
Shoggoth fight: 50 damage on first hit (one hit), 248 on seven hits, more hits.
Balor fight: 408 damage on seven hits, 306 damage on five hits, more hits.
Pit Fiend fight: 408 damage on seven hits, 254 damage on five hits, more hits.
Tarn Linnorm fight: 306 damage on five hits, more hits.
Ancient Gold fight: 59 damage on first hit (one hit), 130 damage on critical hit (one hit), other damage depending on which option the Gold takes.
Solar fight: 66 damage on three hits, 196 damage on critical hit (one hit), more hits.
Tarrasque fight: Lots of roleplay masturbation doing 16,000 damage.
Quite suspect. Anyone else see the common numbers and hits coming up frequently?
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If you take a look at his build, there huge are problems. I'm looking at the level 20 build, and first off, his 14/14/14/7/17/7 (20 point buy) is invalid. Assuming that as a human, he put his +2 into Wisdom, he only spent 14. If he put his +2 into any one of his physical traits, he'd end up with 17 out of 20 spent.
Look at those stats before applying racial ability score.
Secondly, he can't take both the Qinggong Monk and Zen Archer archetypes together, as they both replace Diamond Body, Still Mind and Tongue of the Sun and Moon.
See above
In his gear, he'd have to have Bracers of Armour +8, not a Vest of Armour +8 (unless it was custom allowed by his GM), he's got a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +6 and a Headband of Vast Intelligence +2 (he cannot wear both, so this must be a custom item), a Ring of Protection +5 (and counterspells; not sure where he got this secondary ability added in) Ring of Evasion (and counterspells; same as before, unless it's custom), and unless the Vest of Armour +8 is allowed by his GM, the Greater Bracers of Archery wouldn't be valid.
Custom item building rules in the Core, he rolled them legally.
The rest I won't comment on simply because I'm too lazy to look at One's build.
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Just another thing to think of too - Said Pit fiend has Treasure x 2.
Can anyone tell me why this couldn't contain equally powerful unholy /powerful items usable by the Pit fiend?
In fact I was under the assumption that the idea behind monster treasure especially intelligent monster treasure, was that if they CAN use it - they WIll.
So said Pit fiend has at hand and available 1.6 million GP worth of treasure of which if the assumption can be made at least some is useable and in fact very usable.
It is said he knows the Zen Monks capabilities so allow the Pit Fiend to cherry pick 1.6 million gp worth of items designed to neutralise any advantage a Zen archer could have and then have them fight it out.
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The Pit fiend can constrict the radius of safe air to only his reach so if the Zen archer wishes to be able to shoot him he needs to get into melee range of the Pit Fiend.So One walks up and starts shooting his bow. What makes you think that was the coup de grace? The Pit Fiend still needs natural 20's to hit the guy, so he can stand toe to toe with the Pit Fiend and not be tomato paste
Bear in mind that the Pit fiend can choose to not make a safe area at all forcing the Zen Monk to melee him only - arrows simply cannot work as ranged weapons during Control Wind.
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Man, what's with all the hate for the original thread? Obviously not all encounters will look like that (the rules were stated going in, everything was simplified), but otherwise, it was played pretty pretty straight, along with being a really nice guide on zen archers.
If anything, my biggest complaint would only be that the Solar and Tarrasque fights weren't nearly as straightforward as the preceding ones, probably because the monk did indeed need the edge, such as was stated against the Solar.
As far as wishing goes, if anything, I would say wishing for something not specifically listed to be available through them would have been breaking the rules by which that simulation worked. That would be treading into GM territory, and none of this has a GM to adjudicate it, so sticking to the listed effects is exactly what should have been done, at least in my opinion.
As for antimagic field, a lot of the monk abilities (I don't know which ones exactly) are extraordinary, not supernatural or spell-like, meaning the monk would have still had lots of abilities available. Admittedly a lot of his items would stop working... until he was 10 feet away from the pit fiend, which is the range of the spell.
At any rate though, I don't have any uber-build to run through this beastmas(s?). It does look fun though, and I may try it if inspiration strikes.
@ Nikolaus: I personally think it makes more sense to run against exactly what's in the statblock and nothing else. I don't know, maybe that's just me though.
Edit:
Bear in mind that the Pit fiend can choose to not make a safe area at all forcing the Zen Monk to melee him only - arrows simply cannot work as ranged weapons during Control Wind.
Not bad, but that does leave the pit fiend getting assaulted by the winds too. They actually both have the same Fort (which Control winds has as a save to negate the effects round by round) which means either neither are hampered inside it, or they both are. It would certainly mess up archery though, but in the meantime, what does the pit fiend have for killing him with anyway?
Edit 2: Meh, nevermind the spoiler I suppose.
Wish: Lava fills the area. Quick, better not touch the floor!
The anti-magic field wish is also a good one.
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If its not already obvious - I don't like the whole 'This is my uber build which will smash all opposition - ASSUMING the enemy is not played to its absolute and fullest advantages and in terrains and conditions that are generally advantageous to said build'.
It shows or proves nothing.
I could just as easily put a build at 20th level against every below 1 CR mob and also claim how great it is because of the insane amount of CR it can eventually kill. Hell I could do it easy - I have one necklace of Lava adaptation and all fights are to be done under 400 feet of Lava.
Ill face in turn
1,000,000,000 Kobolds
1,000,000,000 Goblins
1,000,000,000 Orcs
1,000,000,000 Spiders
1,000,000,000 centipedes
(Thats CR 62500000 per encounter)
Round 1 - targets die.
TADA! I R GRATE! I R W1N!
Because the environment or encounter area is fixed in my favor and my gear is exactly what I need in each encounter.
If you want to show how good a build is, let it be in an open arena, then underwater, then in pitch dark, then flying etc
For *all* of the encounters.
Simple numbers and assumptions turn everything into an exercise in statistical methods. Mindless parading of DPR.
Where is the role playing that's supposed to be involved? The clash of will and intelligence? The Character played? The wile of your foe?
The Dragon, Solar and Devil at least should have given the Monk a right kicking in different environments.
Show me that said Monk can do all of those encounters in different circumstances and then you have bragging rights.
Thats the last Ill say about it.
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Yes it's a good idea and interesting (even if flawed), but it's really just RPG masturbation. It's all theorycraft and would tend to fall apart in play for a couple of reasons.
1.) Dice rolls. - They always get in the way of epic encounters.
2.) The unpredictability of opponents. - It's all well and good to say that X does this on round 1, that on round 2, etc.., but in a real fight the combatants would change up their tactics based on the situations and has been pointed out multiple times, the Pit Fiend's wish was wasted and seriously stupid. There are so many better options (anti-magic field, lava, summoning more pit fiends, the list is literally endless).
This build is just a gilded sword. It looks awesome, but you don't know how functional it is till you use it. Sit down with one person playing the monk and another playing the mobs AND then beat them all in the same overpowering way it indicates and then I'll admit it's the uberbuild.
To those of you who have expressed your objections we get it, please stop posting them. Though a lot of the wish options are just going to DM fiat, you can't fill a room with lava the Wall of Lava spell is 8th level and nowhere near that powerful if a Pitfiend can just wish rocks fall everyone does then nobody can beat it, what fun :p. I'd love to see someone actually take on the challenge.
If you take a look at his build, there huge are problems. I'm looking at the level 20 build, and first off, his 14/14/14/7/17/7 (20 point buy) is invalid. Assuming that as a human, he put his +2 into Wisdom, he only spent 14. If he put his +2 into any one of his physical traits, he'd end up with 17 out of 20 spent.Look at those stats before applying racial ability score.
Still invalid, as there are points left unspent both before and after applying the racial ability score. The rest of your items pointed out were redacted, but that still leaves feats unspent, abilities boosted with no explanation, and an Ability Focus with an invalid application. As theorycraft, it was very shoddy indeed; a poor way to demonstrate how to build this awesome killing machine.
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To those of you who have expressed your objections we get it, please stop posting them.
Nope! OP put up an achievement to be matched. If the achievement is suspect that is of course a legitimate complaint.
And to the complaints of others I would add the dice "rolling." Average rolls on every die is not how the d20 works and seriously distorted those fights even for the monk. It would be even more problematic for other classes where forcing rerolls is a significant power (the witch springs immediately to mind). The best way to figure this sort of thing out is to work with math and probabilities. Taking the easy shortcut of always rolling average is of course much easier, but it more or less makes the whole thing pointless.
It is also a fair complaint that the spellcasting monsters (especially those with access to wish, miracle or AMF) were seriously underplayed. Solar uses a Miracle to Plane Shift back to the plane followed by a Wish specifically to teleport to the battle location? A great way to artificially deplete it of its most powerful spells, since Wish alone can do this:
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
and Miracle alone can do this
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to a specific locale through planar barriers with no chance of error.
Furthermore the monk has to happen to encounter it while it is vulnerable and not using any of even its at-will buffs. For example, Invisibility ruins the monk's plan of hiding in the Ethereal and searching for the solar, and a solar is likely invisible all the time save when it wants to be seen, since it has that at will. The monk also apparently has the ability to perfectly navigate the contours of the ground surface without vision while traveling through the ground, such that he accurately keeps his head no more than a foot underground without ever accidentally poking it through. Maybe all his ranks in Survival will let him accurately find his way about... oh wait. He doesn't have any skill ranks that would help him do this in any way.
Gold dragon fight was also pretty subpar in terms of making use of spells and abilities (dicking around as a massive target at a massive distance for a monster that can change its shape and teleport but has no long ranged combat abilities? Since the monk is trying to engage from maximum visual range, screwing with that buys the dragon time to buff). And again no buffs active, not even making use of its Extend Spell feat with Mage Armor which lasts >24h with one casting. So, disregard for the dragon's selected feats as well.
I haven't really read through the other ones, and probably not going to given what I found in those. It is a powerful build, sure, but the monsters are not played nearly to their fullest.
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Is it a fun read? Absolutely. Seeing the zen archers ego follow a trendline of y=x^2 is hillarious. Does the scenario play out even close to as well as the zen archer expects it to? Not by a long road.
The only thing this scenario is missing is the last 5 words: "And then I woke up"
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Still invalid, as there are points left unspent both before and after applying the racial ability score. The rest of your items pointed out were redacted, but that still leaves feats unspent, abilities boosted with no explanation, and an Ability Focus with an invalid application. As theorycraft, it was very shoddy indeed; a poor way to demonstrate how to build this awesome killing machine.If you take a look at his build, there huge are problems. I'm looking at the level 20 build, and first off, his 14/14/14/7/17/7 (20 point buy) is invalid. Assuming that as a human, he put his +2 into Wisdom, he only spent 14. If he put his +2 into any one of his physical traits, he'd end up with 17 out of 20 spent.Look at those stats before applying racial ability score.5+5+5-4+13-4= 20 what's unspent?
The boosted abilities are boosted by his belt, headband and tomes. His luck bonus on skills is his luck stone. His AC also adds up. And he only misses one feat not 2.
You are the guy who runs the paladin guide yes? It would be really cool to see a paladin triumph over beastmass. Maybe you have one.
I made this thread to see über builds, not so you can attack someone who isn't here to defend themselves. I want to see builds that can beat beast mass!
As a human he gets a +2 in a stat of choice. There's no indication in his beginning build of what he placed this floating +2 into. If it went into Wisdom then he would only have to spend 7 points to get to 17 (15 base +2 human bonus).
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I made this thread to see über builds, not so you can attack someone who isn't here to defend themselves. I want to see builds that can beat beast mass!
I think what people are trying to point out is that without some dubious choices on the part of the monsters involved and the edge given by the conditions of the trial itself, it's not really possible to win. In essence, the trial itself is just a bit of a theorycrafting solitaire where you get to peek at a couple face down cards every now and then.
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I'm sorry if it seems like i'm trolling. Here's what we're getting at. I'm trying my best to be clear and i'm having a hard time saying it in a way that doesnt sound mean.
Step 1:Lets create a scenario where i would definitely not win,
Step 2:Then I make a character who's abilities may or may not be entirely legit and may or may not be up to the challenge.
Step 3:Fluff with gigantic wall of rationalization text incase someone thinks i'm cheatin.
Step 4:Pick a few ways that i'd lose and pretend they dont happen... and then... I WIN! Yay! This step mitigates any need for doing steps 1-3.
That thread was bad enough and I'm amazed it didnt get more of a thrashing than it did. Now the OP here says "That was awesome. Yes lets see a hundred more builds please where we pretend the bad guys just arent feeling like doing their worst today and we'll all call ourselves awesome. And we'll name them all One! Like One trick pony... We were going to name the zen archer Pony, like one trick pony, but it seemed to obvious. And we can all go home.
Look. Great builds are great. Great PFS Approved RAW legit builds are even better. The way the bad guys were played in this scenario is the equivalent of saying I caught God napping so I coupe de grassed his butt and WINNING! Love me and shower my genius with praise now! Thank you! If you want a giant list of all the baddest builds ever there's already a thread floating around here for it. I forget what its called. Cartmandude's big list of character builds or something... Hopefully 'One the zen archer' is on his list.
If you're going to spend 500 lines of text talking about game mechanics, and when it comes time to properly address the game mechanics of your enemy you decide instead that he's decided do be a cuddly kitten today, then why dont we all just put the books and the dice away, wrap ourselves up in electric blankets around the campfire and let One the zen archer and a hundred of his best buddies regale us with tales of how cool they are.
Perhaps i'm not his ideal target audience.
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As a human he gets a +2 in a stat of choice. There's no indication in his beginning build of what he placed this floating +2 into. If it went into Wisdom then he would only have to spend 7 points to get to 17 (15 base +2 human bonus).
you serious? It's plain as day the +2 racial bonus went to WIS. adjusted 1st level stats are 14/14/14/7/19/7 which equal a 20 point buy. Go re-read the thread, specifically the first spoiler that shows him at level 1.
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you serious? It's plain as day the +2 racial bonus went to WIS. adjusted 1st level stats are 14/14/14/7/19/7 which equal a 20 point buy. Go re-read the thread, specifically the first spoiler that shows him at level 1.
Sorry that was my mistake. The adjusted stats were on a lower line. Ignore the comments about the stats then. they are correct.
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Thank you to everyone for proclaiming this is all Bad-Wrong-Fun before it has even started. Your manners are impeccable.
I have a level 20 Arcane/Aquatic Wildblooded Sorcerer who could probably pull this off. Be tough though, being a spell-caster who is enchantment focused.