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I see the paladin is doing all the heavy lifting..
Alright, presenting The Vacuum. He's pretty damn squishy, but as best I can tell he can take down each of the big bads, one after another, with absolutely no rest, even assuming all of the bad guys get 15s on their rolls, and he gets 5s. He took some work, and there were several places where I may have made mistakes, so please give feedback. This might not be entirely in the spirit of the competition, but I think by the RAW of this challenge, The Vacuum succeeds.
** spoiler omitted **...
Just curious, which eldritch heritages / bloodlines were used? (Couldnt find it in the spoiler text)
Also what does "G.A.R" stand for?
Sorry for the thread bump all!
Excuse me, but could someone elaborate how the GATLING is reloading his double barreled musket to shoot 14 times in a full round?
Rapid reload and lighting reload wont cut it. !!!
thx
Edit
i mean this build:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pbrv&page=3?Beastmass-A-challenge-to-Maste r-MinMaxers#118
hard on the exploit side ... but yes
thx
What i'm saying is that I don't even believe the guy who says he did it could have pulled it off without grossly misinterpreting the wish of a pit fiend.
I'm not interested in trying to do it. IMHO it hasnt even been done yet.
You know. I get it. Its a great build. Its a fun thought experiment. If there were a 26 mile marathon of evards black tentacles between this character and the top 6 worst enemies the system has to offer, clearly this character will win that race with his hands tied behind his back... Fantastic. Golf clap.
But does it stand up to scrutiny? Does this guy seriously think he can shrug off a pit fiend's wish? I don't have to tell you how it can be done. I can sure has heck say that shrugging off a wish from a pit fiend isnt going to be as smooth as this guy indicates.
Not in any game I run anyway. If the maximum power of the wish spell is 'whatever wont accomplish a dang thing at all' then he shouldnt even need to worry about being so awesome. If his gm rules that a wish spell from the smartest most powerful evil being hell has to offer cant slow him down then I dont know that anything should even consider standing in his way. In my opinion thats not a legitimate ruling on how wish works. I'd be hard pressed to find a gm who looked at the pit fiend fight and just threw in the towel. "Yep. He's bad@ass. I guess we can all go home now."
The strawman in this scenario is specifically the wish. This guy gives you 5 examples of wishes that wouldnt work and assumes by extension that no wish would work... it's like saying 'these 7 fat men can't outrun my dog, therefore my dog is faster than every person on the planet! Might help you sleep better at night but doesn't make it true.
I dont place value in being able to build megadamage unkillamonsters. This is not what gaming means to me. But this guy pretends he has no achilles heel and his handling of a wish implies that even wish spells are impotent to curb his wrath. Well if there isnt a wish in the universe that can even slow...
YAYES! Hallalooyer can I get amen! Optimizing optimizers of optimizer land. Nice way of pointing out rodent whiskers, bucked fore teeth and penchants for putrid, pus ridden provolone CHEESE!
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Hey! Here's a worthy combatant for Beastmass! All relevant details within :)
Presenting, Kikiamori, the Frostbite Kensai Magus.
A couple of fore-notes:
First, this is a decent guess as to what these creatures would do (when they are given the choice). Many people may find these encounters unfair, or think a monster should act in some other way, etc… Well, I got input from two or three GM’s for the tough encounters (Like the gold dragon). If you have a problem with it, too bad :P
Second, there are some calculations that I left out of the main text for the sake of repetition. First is Spell Resistence. My CL check to overcome Spell Resistence is at 24, the highest I have to beat is a 34 (I use my Kimono’s ability to increase my CL by two for the fight with the Tarrasque). That means I beat SR on a ten, which is within rules for Beastmass. Intimidate is another one I pass on, requiring a max roll of 46. My skill in intimidate is 41, meaning auto success according to Beastmass rules.
Finally, I find myself apologizes for the lack of writting and story telling involved with this. I was, honestly, focused more on the theory crafting, and I do none of these great beasts justice with these encounters.
Samsaran
Base:
STR: 9 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 19 WIS: 9 CHA: 7
Venerable Age:
STR: 3 DEX: 10 CON: 6 INT: 22 WIS: 12 CHA: 10
Gear:
STR: 9 DEX: 26 CON: 18 INT: 38 WIS: 18 CHA: 10
Spell gained from Samsaran
Resist Energy (Wizard 2)
Dimensional Anchor (Summ 3)
Freedom of Movement (Bard 4)
Echolocation (Bard 4)
Greater Dispel Magic (Bard 5)
Dance of a Thousand Cuts (Bard 6)
Traits:
Magical Lineage: Frostbite
Bruising Intellect
Feats:
1. *Weapon Focus
1. Weapon Finesse
3. Enforcer
5. Rime Spell
5. Quickdraw
7. Greater Weapon Focus
9. Critical Focus
11. Elemental Spell
11. Bleeding Critical
13. Dazzling Display
15. Shatter Defenses
17. Staggering Critical
17. Critical Mastery
19. Extra Arcana: Reflection
Arcana:
3 Arcane Accuracy
6 Lingering Pain
12 Accurate Strike
15 Quicken Arcana
18 Bane
19 Reflection
Items:
+1 Agile, Cruel, Merciful, Keen Wakishazi
+1 Greater Dispelling Wakishazi
+1 Impervious Spell Storing Anchoring Adamentium Wakizhasi
=113,705 with Dimensional Anchor
Armor:
Determination, Silken Ceremonial Robe
= 31,150
+6 int/wis 90,000
+6 dex/con belt 90,000
Mantle of Immortality 50,000
Otherworldly Kimono 67,000
Sandals of Quick Reaction 4,000
Crown of Conquests 24,600
Amulet Natural armor +5 50,000
Ring of Protection +5 50,000
Eyes of the Eagle 2,500
2 Cracked Pale Green Prisms 8000
8 Traveling Spellbooks 80
Magus Kit 22
Bag of Holding 2,500
Bottle of Air 7,250
6 Pearls of Power 6,000
=451,952
wands rods, and scrolls
Shield 750
Mage Armor 750
2x Wand of Infernal Healing
2x lesser rod of Extend 6,000
Rod of Extend 11,000
Lesser rod of dazing 14,000
=34,000
Used Items:
Tome +5 of Intelligence 137,500
Manual +4 Dexterity 110,000
=247,500
Total = 878,307
Out of 880,000
disable device=25
disguise=20
fly=28
intimidate=41
knowledge:
arcana 41
dungeoneering 37
engineering 19
geography 19
history 19
local 19
nature 34
planes 37
religion 34
perception 29
sense motive 24
spellcraft 37
stealth 25
UMD 23
Prepared Spells:
1.4x Rime Frostbite, 2x Elemental Frostbite, Shield, Vanish
2. Invisability 2x, Bladed Dash 4x, resist Energy 2x
3. Greater Magic Weapon 1x, Keen Weapon 1x, 4x Force Hook Charge, Lightning Bolt
4. Greater Invisability 2x, Echolocation, Stoneskin, Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door 2x
5. Teleport 4x, Overland flight, Stone Wall 2x
6. Dance of 1000 Cuts 4x, Misdirection, Greater Dispel Magic
Only difference between day one and day two spells is that a single casting of Dance of 1000 Cuts is transferred to another casting of Greater Dispel Magic.
Kikiamori recognizes the Pit Fiend to be one of the most difficult creatures to plan for, and so he decides to target it first. His average 47 planes check lets him know most of what the Pit Fiend is capable of, including its ability to wish once every year. Kikia teleports into the room, only to find himself early. He casts dancing lights to light the very dark room, and finds it has no physical way out. Also, he notes its size of 60x60x60. Not knowing how long he might have to wait, he decides not to buff himself in any kind of way, but rather flies to the center of the room and waits, passing the time by playing chess in his mind.
Suddenly, a gate opens, and a Pit Fiend steps through. Neither the Pit Fiend nor Kikia has the surprise advantage, so they both roll initiative. Kikia wins, quick draws his most trusty Wakizhasi, and uses bladed Dash via spell combat to close the distance to his target. Having caught the Pit Fiend flat-footed, he hits with 3 out of 4 attacks. He also scores a critical hit, but chooses not to use his free intimidate check to frighten the Pit Fiend. Instead, he uses a swift action to use lingering pain on the Pit Fiend after the critical hit. Kikia deals 4d6+46, plus the critical hit, which landed for 4d6+69. After damage reduction, the Pit Fiend takes 97 damage. He is now also Shaken, Sickened, Staggered, bleeding and flat footed to the Kensai’s next round of attacks. Additionally, he has to make a DC 44 + spell level check to use any of his spell like abilities. The highest the Pit Fiend’s concentration check can get is 46, limiting the Pit Fiend to 1st or 2nd level spells on a very, very lucky day.
On his turn, he regenerates 5 HP, removing the 2d6 bleed effect, and then has a choice to make. He knows the pain he’s suffering is too great to use any spell like abilities with. He is also staggered, reducing him to one move or standard action. His Bite attack would deal a decent amount of damage, and carries with it a deadly poison. *He takes a 5-foot step back, and uses improved vital strike with his bite attack. However, he misses, misjudging the Kensai’s speed and the effect that the Kensai’s attacks have made on him (he needed to roll at least a 14 to hit).
The Kensai, in turn, casts rimed frostbite and pounds down on the enemy, once again hitting with 3 out of 4 attacks, and lands two critical hits. He deals 2d6+23 + 8d6+138, and another 5d6+100 damage from frostbite. After DR and resistances, it averages to a whopping 287. In addition, he uses Lingering Pain again, disallowing the Pit Fiend any spellcasting. In addition to all of the previous debuffs, the Pit Fiend also now is fatigued and entangled.
Desperate, the Pit Fiend realizes that without his spell-like abilities, he’s toast. His odds of grappling the magus are slim if he can dodge his bite attack so easily. His only hope is to out run the magus, at least until he can use his Wish SLA to cast Anti-Magic Field. Because he is entangled, he can only move half his speed. He uses a restricted withdraw action, and moves 30 feet away.
Kikiamori planned for this, and prepared several extra castings of Bladed Dash. Same as his first round, Kikia casts Bladed Dash, and lands three blows, dealing 4d6+46 + 4d6+69, average for 97 damage after DR. He also uses Lingering Pain, not knowing that the Pit Fiend would fall unconscious after the third attack.
The Pit Fiend, now unconscious, is brutally beaten until it is unrecognizable. The killing blow is then made as a vial of Holy Water is sprinkled over its corpse, and a ritualistic coup de grace finishes off this once great devil.
Kikiamori cleans off his blade, uses a pearl of power to regain his casting of Frostbite, and then proceeds to buff himself with Water Breathing, and then teleport to his next destination: The Shoggoth.
*The Pit Fiend may have tried his luck here and ran every time. He would always be in range of Force Hook Charge, and Kikiamori has 3 more prepared that he can use. Three more arcane pool points would be used, and three more level 3 spells, but it means nothing by the end of the day.
Kikia finds himself in the ocean, right around Jellyfish migration time. “Dang it” he thinks to himself, and out of frustration uses his kimono to cast maze on one of the poor creatures. However, the trial must continue, and so he begins to search for the Shoggoth.
His “spider sense” begin to tingle, meaning that he is about to attack. The Jellyfish swarms must have blocked line of sight to the Shoggoth. Reflexively, he casts Dance of 1000 Cuts, and uses his move action granted by his sandals to pull out his Rod of Daze.
The Shoggoth comes charging through the water (It can’t trample without a full round of actions). It’s attack misses, having needed an 18 to hit.
Kikiamori is left with not too many options. The Shoggoth is a powerful foe. However, it is weak to will effects, which Kikia plans to exploit. He casts Elemental Frostbite, using the Rod of Daze to give said spell the dazing effect. Then, he drops his rod, quickdraws his wakizhasi, uses a swift action to enchant with +2 Bane Flaming Burst, moves in and attacks. He hits, dealing a measly 5d6+18 + 1d6+20(frostbite) damage. After DR and fire resistance, he only dealt 24 damage. However, the Shoggoth is not immune to mind affecting effects like other oozes, it has an intelligence score. It is now fatigued and shaken, but resisted the daze effect with a 10.
The Shoggoth is unable to grapple the magus (freedom of movement), and so uses it’s last option: the trample attack. Kikia however gets an AoO, which he uses instead of trying to dodge the trample attack. He hits, critically to, dealing 6d6+2d10+54 + 2d6+40(frostbite). After DR and resistences, the attack deals 103 damage. Further more, the shoggoth has save again versus the daze effect: it fails, needing a 12 to save. It is now fatigued, shaken, dazed, sickened, and flat footed to the Kensai’s future attacks. Since the attack of opportunity is resolved before the action that triggered it, the shoggoth cannot complete it’s trample attack, and it’s round is over (due to being dazed).
Kikia simply starts hacking up the ooze at this point. With every hit, a will save is needed from the ooze to prevent being dazed the next round. Since it now makes those checks at -4 (shaken and sickened), it hardly ever succeeds, let alone 4 times in a row. The shoggoth is unconscience within 20 strikes. Kikiamori finishes it off, wipes his blade clean, picks up his rod, and teleports to the next encounter: The Balor.
Kikiamori finds himself in a 10x10 room that is 100ft high. Once again, his spider sense tingles, and he gets to prepare himself for the coming onslaught. Once again, he casts Dance of 1000 Cuts, and enchants his favorite wakizhasi, this time with +2 Bane: Demon, Icy Burst.
Suddenly, the Balor appears just ten feet away from Kikiamori! Considering the Balor knows of this somewhat notable mortal, he knows his strengths and weaknesses. First, he knows directly targeting the Magus or his gear with any spell is subject to failure, due the Magi’s ability to reflect spells. Second, he knows that physical attacks won’t land, he would need a 20 to hit the Kensai. Trying to summon another creature would be nice, but he knows that as soon as he starts casting the Magus will attack him, making him lose his concentration. Blasphemy would work, but also knows that will saves are strong amongst Kensai.
In all honesty, the Balor knows he’s outmatched. He could attempt to get lucky with an area targeted greater dispel magic, or perhaps the Kensai is running low on arcane pool points, and is unable to reflect his spells. *He tries his luck with by targeting Kikiamori’s Mantle of Immortality with a Greater Dispel Magic. Kikiamori in fact has plenty of arcane pool points, and spends 6 to reflect this deadly spell back at it’s caster (who makes his own save). He won’t be able to make the same mistake twice.
Kikiamori proceeds to cast Rime Frostbite, step forward, and full attack the foolish Balor. Four out of the five attacks land, with the second and fourth hits hitting critically. They deal 5d6+18 + 6d6+2d10+36 + 5d6+33 + 6d6+2d10+99 + 6d6+120(frostbite). This averages to 402 after resistances (a +3 weapon bypasses cold iron DR). The Balor falls unconscious to the floor, and because he has neither fast healing or regeneration his health begins to fall due to the 4d6 bleed effect currently on him.
Kikiamori drags the large creature to one side of the floor, and then flies up to the farthest point in the room to avoid the ensuing blast. After the Balor dies from blood loss, its body is consumed in a blinding flash of fire. Kikia is left unharmed, and teleports to the next fight: The Tarn Linnorm.
*The Balor may have tried a more deadly spell at this point, spending up to 3 more arcane pool points of Kikiamori’s
Kikiamori finds himself near a cool mountain lake, in refreshing spring air. But this is no time to relax, he begins to scout around the lake. His “spidy” sense tingles, and he does what he had planned: Use his Quicken Magic arcana to quickly cast Dance of 1000 Cuts, and then ready an action to cast dimension door if a creature attacks him.
The waves on the water swell, and quickly the Tarn Linnorm emerges, targeting the Kensai with it’s most deadly attack. Both heads spew forth cones of acid, dealing 44d8 acid damage plus a deadly poison to every living creature in its wake, an attack capable of putting the Kensai into his grave in one blow. A good tactic for a creature with seven intelligence.
However, the Kensai’s readied action occurs, and he teleports to directly behind the Tarn Linnorm! The Kensai is now placed directly before the Tarn Linnorm initiative wise, and he proceeds to cast frostbite, enchant his weapon as a swift action with +2 Bane: Dragon Icy Burst, and full round attack the dragon. Needless to say, he wants this puppy put down. His second and fourth attacks land critically, and all five of his attacks will land. His attacks deal: 5d6+18 + 6d6+2d10+54 + 2x(5d6+33) + 6d6+2d10+99 + 7d6+140(frostbite). Since his weapon is a +3, it bypasses DR, dealing the full average of 518 damage.
The Tarn Linnorm passes out, allowing the Kensai to finish the job of killing with Coup De Graces. As the dragon dies, a curse falls on the Kensai, but it doesn’t make it past his will save.
The Kensai rests here for the rest of the day, and spends the night. He spent a decent chuck of his resources, but that’s to be expected for accomplishing something that’d take 4 or 5 others. He’s been lowered to 15 out of 24 arcane pool points (worst case scenarios would put him at 21 out of 24).
He wakes up refreshed, and prepares a new set of spells that were preplanned for the coming challenges. He even includes casting Phantom Steed today, to prepare for his Dragon Fight.
He teleports to the area of the next big challenge: The Gold Dragon.
As Kikiamori is riding above an open field, hunting his quarry, his spidy sense tingle, allowing him to once again prebuff, again with Dance of 1000 Cuts and enchanting his weapon with Bane: Dragon: Icy Burst, Corrosive Burst.
The Dragon perceives Kikiamori from 400 ft away, and considers its options carefully. The Magus is a deadly fellow who can take down monsters in just a few seconds, especially a dragon with vulnerability to cold. The dragon can either buff himself up with spells as much as possible, or charge in with an anti-magic field. The anti-magic field is a decent option, but it has several vulnerabilities: He has grown to such a size that parts of his body would stick out of the field, and all of his magical abilities, including his supernatural breath weapons, would be suppressed. Not to mention that due to the rules of the world he’s in, the Kensai would never be negatively affected by the antimagic field, due to not being able to share the same space as the dragon. That would not be a favorable fighting conditions.
So, the dragon decides to buff himself up with as many useful spells possible. The Magus will eventually see him flying around, but no matter, he can easily out maneuver the melee combatant. He casts Spell Immunity (specifically, immunity against the Magi’s most commonly used spells), True Seeing, Resist Energy: Cold, Stoneskin, haste, Prayer, Aid, Silence (his SLA don’t have verbal components, the Magi’s does), Mage Armor, Shield of Faith and Divine Favor. 12 rounds later, the Magus is floating in the same place, on top of his mount, looking as if he readying an action. “How curious,” thinks the dragon.
Kikiamori, in the meantime, has decided to cast Misdirection, leaving behind a figment of himself looking as if to cast a spell. With his invisibility, he leaves his summoned mount, and places himself 180 feet away from his image, staying between it and the dragon. When he reaches the spot, he casts Keen Weapon his anti-mage weapon. He then readies an action to cast Greater Dispel Magic onto the dragon as soon as it comes to 120 feet, just outside the range of the dragon’s true seeing (a spell he himself uses). When his main weapon’s enchantment runs out, he refreshes it as a swift action. By the time the dragon starts to charge in, Kikiamori has 8 rounds left on his image, and 7 rounds left on his Dance.
The dragon starts to close the distance, preparing to dispel some of the Magi’s gear. He figures that’s the best course of action, he can’t reflection 7 castings of Greater Dispel Magic, and he can certainly do so while staying outside the range of the magus. He comes within 300 feet of the Kensai (the fake one), and kikiamori casts Greater Dispel Magic on him, removing the 5 highest spells: True Seeing, Spell Immunity, Stoneskin, Haste, and Prayer. No matter.
The dragon stops moving at 250 feet away from the image, and considers between dispelling the Kensai or the Steed (which could allow him to actually hit the dragon). Remembering the distance at which Dispel Magic was cast, he appraised the Kensai’s Caster Level as 20th, meaning dispelling the steed would be very difficult. To dispel the Mantle of Immortality would be difficult, but the Belt or headband would be great, easy targets that would quickly diminish the Magi’s power. The Dragon uses Greater Dispel Magic on the belt, which would have reduced the Kikiamori’s reflex saves and HP, making him vulnerable to breath attacks.
However, when the ability is used, the Dragon sees and realizes his mistake: the character was an illusion!
Kikiamori’s turn, and he knows it will be the first and last time he can hit the dragon in melee. He uses Accurate Strike, resolving all of his attacks against the dragon’s pitiful Touch AC, and then casts force hook charge as a part of spell combat. All four of his attacks will hit. His first hit will be with his Anti-mage weapon, stripping the Dragon of another 5 buffs (leaving only his Mage Armor up). Knowing he will be hitting, Kikiamori will use non-lethal damage for his first hit, allowing him to use the Enforcer feat sooner. Hits two and four critically hit, and he expends 4 arcane pool points to increase his weapon’s damage multiplier for those two hits. The damage is as thus: 1d6 + 8d6+6d10+48 + 6d6+31 + 8d6+6d10+124 + 20 (Force Hook), averaging out to be 371 damage (after the vulnerability to cold). The Dragon is also now shaken, frightened, sickened, staggered (for 2 rounds), and flat footed to the Kensai’s attacks.
Dragons Turn. First thing that happens is 4d6 bleed damage, causing the Dragon to fall unconscious.
Since the dragon is good, the Kensai (if this was an actual game) would stabilize the dragon and stop the bleeding, and write a note why he did what he did, and how he was going to make up for it (by killng 5 of the planets most powerful and evil creatures). He gets the Dragon to nearly conscience, and then teleports out to the next Creature, the Solar.
Arriving in the Gardens, Kikiamori proceeds to cast invisibility, and to scout around, ninja fashion. He soon finds the Solar, with his stealth check easily beating the Solar’s perception check. However, he knows that the Solar has true seeing, and stays about 120 feet back and plans his course of action. This will be cake, he simply needs to buff himself before charging in. He travels a relative safe distance to buff himself with Dance of 1000 Cuts, and enchants his weapon with +4 Bane: Angel, and then goes back to the Solar. He charges the angel, moving the 120 feet. With a single attack (he hits on a 4), he deals 4d6+34 damage, an average of 48 damage (which bypasses epic DR, due to the weapon being considered a +7 weapon against angels). Initiative is rolled, Kikiamori goes first. He casts Elemental Spell Frostbite, which deals fire damage, uses Accurate Strike (resolving attacks against touch AC), and full attacks the Angel. Attacks 1, 3, and 5 critically land. His attacks deal 5d6+102 + 2(4d6+35) + 2(5d6+105) + 8d6+160 fire damage, totaling to 601 damage after fire resistance. The Solar is unconscious, and is promptly dealt with in a similar fashion as the dragon. Kikiamori wastes no time and heads off to the final encounter: The Tarrasque.
Kikiamori approaches the Tarrasque invisible, his stealth just high enough to keep the Tarrasque unawares. He buffs himself with Dance of 1000 Cuts, and enchants his weapon with +4 Bane: Magical Beast before he reaches an area that he thinks would be too close to cast spells safely (His 38 intelligence helps him with that). Kikia also uses his kimono on his rat in a bag in order to get another +2 on his CL checks to overcome spell resistance. He creeps up to the Tarrasque, and… Surprise Round!
Kikiamori casts Rimed Frostbite, spends two arcane pool points on using Accurate Strike, and begins to hack away. His second and fourth attacks critically hit, and he deals: 4d6+34 + 5d6+102 + 2(4d6+35) + 5d6+105 + 7d6+140(frostbite), averaging for 552.5 damage (ignores Epic DR, weapon is a +7 against magical beasts). First round of combat, Kensai goes first (Tarrasque is already unconscious). Kikiamori attacks again (spending another 2 points for accurate strike). He deals 2(4d6+35) + 2(5d6+105) + 6d6+120 (frostbite), an average of 484 damage.
He then spends however long he wants beating on the corpse of the Tarrasque, maybe an hour or two. Then, he casts stone wall to form a box around the head of the tarrasque, and begins to fill it up with dirt (and water, if available). The tarrasque will then begin to suffocate. It takes 80 hours via the slow suffocation rules for it to die (on average). Or the quick suffocation rules say it’s dead within 71 turns. Either way, Kikiamori keeps bashing on the creature until it stops regeneration. He knows, in large part due to his 38 intelligence, that not even the great Tarrasque’s regeneration bypasses suffocation damage :).
At the end of the day, he’s spent most of his high level spells, but his lower level, damage and mobility spells are still very available. He spent 16 arcane pool points today, out of 24. He defeated Beastmass, and just like the Zen Archer, he never took a single hit point of damage.
Why is there no high CR construct iin this challenge? Sometimes I think it would make stuff more interessting:D
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Why is there no high CR construct iin this challenge? Sometimes I think it would make stuff more interessting:D
High CR constructs tend to be extremely weak opponents, especially to casters, despite what people with low levels of system mastery might believe.
I never really looked into constructs - but isnt there a way to customize them to be quiet dangerous - even though that would mean 40HD or something?
I guess they are lacking some dangerous abilities other than martial attacks, but isnt there a way to give them SLA's and stuff?
I'd also be interested how far characters without spells could get in this challenge. Sure, they'd have problems even finding the beasts, but at öeast some of the fights should be possible for martials. Barbarian comes to my mind....
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Take a look at the Adamantine Golem for example. It's a CR 19. Let's look at its problems. First of all, 0 Flight. So anything that flies is completely safe from it, because it also lacks a ranged attack. Lets look at it's saves then. +10, +9, +10... that's pretty much a joke. Oh sure you might say but what about their magic immunity? Well that only works against things that allow SR. This means casters have an easy time exploiting their lack of flight, ranged attack and poor saves. Oh and it has a touch AC of 7. Because evidently its *supposed* to be a joke.
But is there no way to make stronger custom constructs?
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I'd also be interested how far characters without spells could get in this challenge. Sure, they'd have problems even finding the beasts, but at öeast some of the fights should be possible for martials. Barbarian comes to my mind....
The entire key to winning a challenge such as this is the ability to one-shot/lockdown an opponent before he can react.
Rocket tag taken to the extreme.
Martial characters can be built to excel at rocket tag more easily than a pure caster.
An important roadblock to overcome is AMF. AMF shuts down most builds, leaving the character in melee without spells or magic items. A fighter or barbarian may be able to overcome this. Most casters will be very challenged.
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Martial characters can be built to excel at rocket tag more easily than a pure caster.The really really cant. Martials get very few ways of imposing encounter ending conditions like daze or petrified. Casters get multiple ways to impose multiple conditions both single target and area effect, targeting any save they want and at DC's which enemies are extremely unlikely to beat.
Martials on the other hand are largely limited to trying to reduce enemy HP to 0 which can be disrupted in many many ways.
They really really can if built correctly. Honestly a properly built martial can not only remove 50%-100% of the targets HP they can drop enough status effects on a to make it impossible for the target to react. It just requires a significantly higher system mastery to do it with a martial then a caster.
Take a look at the Adamantine Golem for example. It's a CR 19. Let's look at its problems. First of all, 0 Flight. So anything that flies is completely safe from it, because it also lacks a ranged attack. Lets look at it's saves then. +10, +9, +10... that's pretty much a joke. Oh sure you might say but what about their magic immunity? Well that only works against things that allow SR. This means casters have an easy time exploiting their lack of flight, ranged attack and poor saves. Oh and it has a touch AC of 7. Because evidently its *supposed* to be a joke.
Put the Construct Armor modification on it. For just 35 000 you got a nearly undestroyable ever regenerating meat shield around you.
Take a look at the Adamantine Golem for example. It's a CR 19. Let's look at its problems. First of all, 0 Flight. So anything that flies is completely safe from it, because it also lacks a ranged attack. Lets look at it's saves then. +10, +9, +10... that's pretty much a joke. Oh sure you might say but what about their magic immunity? Well that only works against things that allow SR. This means casters have an easy time exploiting their lack of flight, ranged attack and poor saves. Oh and it has a touch AC of 7. Because evidently its *supposed* to be a joke.Put the Construct Armor modification on it. For just 35 000 you got a nearly undestroyable ever regenerating meat shield around you.
Oh I guess, that character character could probably win the Beastmass, unless I'm misreading something.
Take a look at the Adamantine Golem for example. It's a CR 19. Let's look at its problems. First of all, 0 Flight. So anything that flies is completely safe from it, because it also lacks a ranged attack. Lets look at it's saves then. +10, +9, +10... that's pretty much a joke. Oh sure you might say but what about their magic immunity? Well that only works against things that allow SR. This means casters have an easy time exploiting their lack of flight, ranged attack and poor saves. Oh and it has a touch AC of 7. Because evidently its *supposed* to be a joke.Put the Construct Armor modification on it. For just 35 000 you got a nearly undestroyable ever regenerating meat shield around you.
This would only work if you were Huge (or if you can get a medium Adamantine Golem somehow). Also keep in mind it does nothing to protect you from non-HP based ways of ending your life.
I was going to post a build, but the rules of pathfinder do not seem to travel the dark paths that I do.
So I ask the OP to make a few rule calls as far as the challenge is concerned.
Is a class spellcasting ability, a class feature.
If no, that is all I need.
If yes, then does it stack with itself?
example for yes:
Witch 5/Winter Witch 2
ability in question: Winter Witchcraft
The bold emphasis is mine, but if spellcasting is a class feature of the witch class, would that stack with the spells per day feature of the prestige class?
Would it be:
Witch CL 7 or Witch CL 6?
It's like I kill every thread I post in.
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I was going to post a build, but the rules of pathfinder do not seem to travel the dark paths that I do.
So I ask the OP to make a few rule calls as far as the challenge is concerned.
Is a class spellcasting ability, a class feature.
If no, that is all I need.
If yes, then does it stack with itself?example for yes:
Witch 5/Winter Witch 2
ability in question: Winter Witchcraft
** spoiler omitted **
The bold emphasis is mine, but if spellcasting is a class feature of the witch class, would that stack with the spells per day feature of the prestige class?
Would it be:
Witch CL 7 or Witch CL 6?
To me it's sort of unclear, but the implication seems to be that you trade one level of spellcasting for double advancement on your hexes and such. I've been trying to think up a PC to conquer the Beastmass as well, as a budding optimizer I'm trying to come up with a way to do so that hasn't really been discussed here.
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To me it's sort of unclear, but the implication seems to be that you trade one level of spellcasting for double advancement on your hexes and such. I've been trying to think up a PC to conquer the Beastmass as well, as a budding optimizer I'm trying to come up with a way to do so that hasn't really been discussed here.
With the winter wizard prc, if its class ability winter witchcraft stacks the way I mentioned, then it gains over the course of 10 levels +19 witch levels for the purpose of spells known/day and caster level. Everything else gained is gravy.
I also have another build in the works, but that one needs clarification on whether-or-not I can wish for the advanced template to be added to an azlanti human.
Can I take them on all at once?
That is awesome, if you used clone or similucrum you could probably do it for each monster separately.
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You think the Golem is bad then take a look a Grendel!. A CR19, Mythic Rank 7 opponent which cannot fly, has no ranged attacks, whose highest save is +16 which is defeated by simple invisibility. I have trouble seeing this as a threat for a group of moderately prepared level 10 non mythic characters who have enough sense to stay out of melee with it.
Yes, because the party is always able to meet opponents in the party's terms! They are never forced into tight quarters against melee monsters, or in the vast majority of buildings in the world which don't have ceilings 15+ feet high.
You people kill me.
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But remember, once you defeat Grendel, you immediately have to fight its mother, as per the Heroic Epic of Beowulf.
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If you virtual demigod mythic opponent is only effective if confronted inside a small box then he isnt worthy of the name. The fact that even if you do meet him in very cramped quarters he is still helpless against invisibility is just sad. Also many adventure locations routinely have ceilings well over 15' high as many of the creatures you meet require the space and/or can fly.
In short, Grendel remains an idiotic threat for any moderately competent group of mid level characters and with his +16 saves across the board is irrelevant to any high level group.
Yes, it would be ridiculous to expect that you might face a monster in its environment. If your virtual demigod mythic opponent is only effective if confronted in the ocean/the air/his cave/a mead hall, then he isn't worthy of the name, I suppose.
Helpless against invisibility? Since when? It has to roll a -3 to notice that you are there. +20 to pinpoint you, but wait! Moving? -5. Moving your full speed? -10. Running, charging, in combat, speaking? -20.
Vast majority of encounters in an AP take place in a room with 10 ft. ceiling or less. Grendel however, has 10 ft. reach, which means any ceiling 20 ft. or less is going to be within his non-jumping reach. Average result of 8 feet on a high jump means that 30 ft. ceilings are also within reach. Negates most status conditions on his turn and also can't be killed without natural or unarmed attacks. (other than the typical abilities that bypass regeneration)
Sure, I guess if you are headed in to kill Grendel, and you're invisible, and the encounter doesn't begin in an ambush, and requires less time than your invisibility lasts, and blah blah Schrödinger's wizard blah, Grendel might end up being an easy encounter. Particularly if you playing in a game with Anzyr's DM, and you already pretty much told him to shut up and roll the dice for an encounter with Grendel. But for the vast majority of people who aren't "playtesting" APs with themselves as DM and player, and who think animal oracles and simulacrum abuse is just willful obstinance, he's going to be a fairly normal encounter, albeit one that will be overcome slightly differently than most.
This ignores that his 'saves' are essentially +21.5 across the board as well, to say nothing of the fact that he nukes most status effects.
You people kill me.
Totally agree with you andreww, but what loop is there with the lunar oracle (other than it being an unbalanced mystery)?
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Singularity?
Actually, you don't win, if you want to use laws of physics. The First enemy you fought is now headed towards your singularity. It will take an nearly infinite amount of time for it to die, meaning it will still outlive you. Oh wait, your in the same situation. The planet you live on will be destroyed by it's star by the time this fight is resolved, because you will not be dead within the next several billion years. Your clones are now non-existant, having been destroyed by the star that destroyed your planet. Or they expire, or are found by some other person, etc...
What would be to you half a round, would be a nearly infinite amount of time. Playing with physics = bad.
Yes, it would be ridiculous to expect that you might face a monster in its environment. If your virtual demigod mythic opponent is only effective if confronted in the ocean/the air/his cave/a mead hall, then he isn't worthy of the name, I suppose.Grendels environment is swamp and fens, traditionally they have a rather high ceiling called the sky. The mead hall in Beowulf always struck me as pretty huge in any representation I have seen.
It sure was. Probably not thirty foot ceilings though. But even if it was, he can jump and get you.
Helpless against invisibility? Since when? It has to roll a -3 to notice that you are there. +20 to pinpoint you, but wait! Moving? -5. Moving your full speed? -10. Running, charging, in combat, speaking? -20.He has a +15 perception skill. Invisibility gives you a starting bonus of +20. Good luck with that, God forbid someone use something as powerful as Obscuring Mist on this near deific challenge.
Yep. Starting +20. In combat? -20. So...my math's awkward, but does that make it +0? Vs +15? Good luck with that. G-D forbid someone use something as powerful as the rules for invisibility when adjudicating the ability.
Vast majority of encounters in an AP take place in a room with 10 ft.That seems highly debateable and doesn't change the fact that high level monsters without the ability to fly or make any form of ranged attack are bloody stupid.
Debatable? Provable, falsifiable...all you have to do is go through the adventures. There are entire adventures that only take place within buildings or caves and such, while most of those with outdoor encounters have a mix.
And I don't see anything in his statblock that prevents him from say, picking something up and throwing it for a ranged attack, whether that's a spear or wagon. All a melee monster needs is a way to make melee happen. They don't need to fly or ranged attack, though those are of course, nice and help round out an encounter. When this guy jumps out of the swamp or you come face to face with him rounding the corner in his cave, it's curtains for your theories, and time to roll initiative from the grapple.
Negates most status conditions on his turn and also can't be killed without natural or unarmed attacks. (other than the typical abilities that bypass regeneration)He has 7 mythic power. If he cannot reach his opponents and he can easily have a condition imposed on him every round then he runs out of mythic power very fast.
This one was my bad. I thought it worked like the behemoth ability. Still, he has enough mythic power to last a few rounds while boosting his saves, assuming he is, in fact, getting a status condition imposed on him every round.
and who think animal oracles and simulacrum abuse is just willful obstinance, he's going to be a fairly normal encounter, albeit one that will be overcome slightly differently than most.I have never used simulacrum abuse or the lunar oracle loop. Both are bad for the game and should be removed. I simply don't pretend that they do not exist.
That's true, suggestions along those lines tend to come from your pal. There's a difference in pretending something 'doesn't exist' as a rules exploit and stating something 'doesn't exist' in any fashion as far as a realistic gaming environment goes. Its akin to using a hacked character to 'win' a debate about the most powerful entity in an MMO or some nonsense.
To hear the sounds of battle is a -10 perception check. I don't see anything about a "in combat" -20.
To hear the sounds of battle is a -10 perception check. I don't see anything about a "in combat" -20.
It's hidden in the section entitled 'invisibility' in the special abilities.
Invisible creature is... Perception DC
In combat or speaking –20
Moving at half speed –5
Moving at full speed –10
Running or charging –20
Not moving +20
Using Stealth Stealth check +20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15
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There is a very convoluted loophole with the Lunar Oracle capstone that allows you to cast Awaken on yourself multiple times gaining potentially unlimited increases in HD and Charisma. It is rather ridiculous and very much an unintended consequence of an overly large ruleset.
Minor correction. It's Nature which I've been known to miscall Animal Oracles that have the Awaken loop. That being said in terms of non-infinite loops I love Lunar's very hard to come by (in PF anyway) immunity to mind-affecting. In truth, their still scary strong even without infinite tricks. Or Celestial Obediance Arshea which I didn't use, but totally would on another Lunar Oracle.
Also while I'm here:
Yes, it would be ridiculous to expect that you might face a monster in its environment. If your virtual demigod mythic opponent is only effective if confronted in the ocean/the air/his cave/a mead hall, then he isn't worthy of the name, I suppose.Grendels environment is swamp and fens, traditionally they have a rather high ceiling called the sky. The mead hall in Beowulf always struck me as pretty huge in any representation I have seen.It sure was. Probably not thirty foot ceilings though. But even if it was, he can jump and get you.
Helpless against invisibility? Since when? It has to roll a -3 to notice that you are there. +20 to pinpoint you, but wait! Moving? -5. Moving your full speed? -10. Running, charging, in combat, speaking? -20.He has a +15 perception skill. Invisibility gives you a starting bonus of +20. Good luck with that, God forbid someone use something as powerful as Obscuring Mist on this near deific challenge.Yep. Starting +20. In combat? -20. So...my math's awkward, but does that make it +0? Vs +15? Good luck with that. G-D forbid someone use something as powerful as the rules for invisibility when adjudicating the ability.
Vast majority of encounters in an AP take place in a room with 10 ft.That seems highly debateable and doesn't change the fact that high level monsters without the ability to fly or make any form of ranged attack are bloody stupid.Debatable? Provable, falsifiable...all you have to do is go through the adventures. There are entire adventures that only take place within buildings or caves and such, while most of those with outdoor encounters have a mix.
And I don't see anything in his statblock that prevents him from say, picking something up and throwing it for a ranged attack, whether that's a spear or wagon. All a melee monster needs is a way to make melee happen. They don't need to fly or ranged attack, though those are of...
I'm not sure you really understand how powerful casters are. If they don't want to fight in a enclosed environment... they have the option of just going around it. Or breaking it. Or setting it on fire. Grendel can hang out in the mead hall all he wants while it's on fire. Once its gone he's a just a coverless animal to be hunted down from the sky.
Also, considering andreww has run his Sorcerer through some AP scenarios, I'm liable to take his word on the size (really 10 by 10 rooms are kinda rare).
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While I know this is a moot and silly point but I feel that a proper build with heavy emphasis on social skills can end most of these fights excluding the shoggoth and tarrasque.
Linnorms are generally Le which means we can deal, same with pitfiend, Balor much more on the chaos side might have to kill him, or better yet banish. remember with enough prep work nothing is impossible. Dust of dryness is the bane of shoggoth and other oozes makes it a quick kill. The Tarrasque takes a bit of work but I once built a brawling fighter lv 20 that could take him with his hands, just have to remember to buy a luck blade or a wish ring with at least one use available to end that fight.
So on the list of things needed, we need the ability to Banish a Balor, a big box of dust of dryness, some bribes, and a ring of freedom of movement because when fighting the Tarrasque you need to avoid being grappled and swallowed if you want to beat him to death, is what I learned.
So upon expanding the list of Beastmass, I found 74 more opponents, for a total of 81.
Most social skills take about a minute or 10 rounds to set up, given that this is strictly about beating a creature senseless, I think most creatures start hostile towards the PC entering the combat.
I have a creature in mind if you don't mind talking with it for hours on end, each round you both talk to one another the save DC of it's ability goes up by 1. Talk away and be its friend.
I also am going to test this dice roll feature I heard about:
<roll 1d20> or is it <dice 1d20>, I will try both:
[roll 1d20] or [dice 1d20] or