I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous.
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Can you list how playing a RPG can be "religiously dangerous"?
What exactly about the game can be deemed "dangerous"?
Because until I see some examples, I have no idea what you mean.
Thanks --
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I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous. How do other Christians respond to this or are these two issues non compatible? I would love to hear the community's thoughts on the matter!
Also happy thanksgiving to the USA !
Thanks
Nick
You can have them listen to that Dead Alewives D&D routine.
But seriously, those that suggest actually running a game have the right idea.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I could write a really snarky reply about who to trust the most on this issue, but I'll save that for another day. ;-)
Instead I'll just ask you this:
Why are you concerned about what they will say? If you enjoy RPGs why would you let other people's opinions keep you from having fun? Are you not the best arbiter concerning what you enjoy or don't enjoy?
It's like so many other situations, are they really your friends if they won't let you enjoy a harmless pastime? Are they really your friends if they'll only accept you if you fit into their preconceived notion of who you should be and what you should do?
If they aren't even your "friends" as such, but "just" people from your church, why does their opinion even matter?
Take charge of your own life and do what you enjoy.
Okay. I saw this post and had to throw in my two cents. (Please note, I am a Christian.)
RPGs are about as dangerous to faith as math mixed with theater. That's what, at it's core, any RPG is. Some might say "Oh, but what about the demons and cultists featured is so many products?" They are the bad guys. We kill bad guys. We do not join them, we do not ally with them.
A friend of mine was GMing a game IN A CHURCH and they were getting to a climactic point in the dungeon. The cultists were completing the ritual and summoning demons from the abyss. As he's setting the scene, the Head Pastor walks in. Awkward silence, GM continues. Pastor getting increasingly uncomfortable with the demon-summoning cultists. PCs attack cultists before they can complete the ritual. The Pastor talked to him afterwards, surprised that the players didn't join with the dark ritualists. The GM responded, "Well, they are the heroes. Heroes stop villains."
Some might take the approach of "But dice can be swayed by the Devil." Oh, well I guess that says Matthias's discipleship is illegitimate and influenced by the devil. He was chosen by throwing lots, the old middle-eastern version of dice.
My two cents.
edit: I'm also a member of the CCG, the Christian Gaming Guild. I recommend you and whoever has questions about RPGs check them out.
Thank you very much north king- love that answer and very helpful .
It is so easy gentle giant. We all live by restrictions and laws that are supposed to make our lives better. Being a christian I need to be aware of god's laws even more as they are for our eternal benefit. I could go out and have an affair but my wife presumably would not approve and there would be consequences. I do appreciate your comment thoug.
I am now off to work for aong day nursing at the local hospital. Enjoy yourselves
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If you base your religion off a fantasy RPG game you need some serious reality checks, or simply need to go to a mental doctor.
i am so happy to see a fourm like this.im a christian also and i love fantasy and sci-fi..i grew up during the whole d&d is for devil worshpers thing.it was strange to say the least..
happy t-day everybody
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Thank you very much north king- love that answer and very helpful .
It is so easy gentle giant. We all live by restrictions and laws that are supposed to make our lives better. Being a christian I need to be aware of god's laws even more as they are for our eternal benefit. I could go out and have an affair but my wife presumably would not approve and there would be consequences. I do appreciate your comment thoug.
I am now off to work for aong day nursing at the local hospital. Enjoy yourselves
Now, I'm an atheist, so obviously my point of view is a little different from yours.
But I ask again, what does that have to do with the people in your church? You don't have to live by their restrictions and rules. If you are unsure about the answer concerning your religion, why not seek out the answer on your own? Who says that the people from your church knows the laws of your god better than you? They are just people too.Have some confidence in your own ability to deem what is right and wrong for YOU, according to your faith. Not what is right or wrong in the minds of the people from your church.
*comment about how I like the Paizo forums and how everyone (almost always) doesn't go after each other... Unlike other communities*
I just don't give it a thought. It's not like I'm out killing people, or actually summoning demons (I don't really think ANY of us could even try). Just in game.
Although, honestly, I mostly play Good characters. The only characters I've played that aren't is both my rogues and my witch, and even those are questionable (I don't steal much with my rogues, and my witch is a "pacifist.")
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I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous. How do other Christians respond to this or are these two issues non compatible? I would love to hear the community's thoughts on the matter!
Also happy thanksgiving to the USA !
Thanks
Nick
Nick, I feel your pain. As a Christian and a game designer, I have quite a collection of esoteric games. One time I was referencing the Witchcraft RPG when my parents came over to visit. My dad literally thought I was joining satanism. *sigh* Not one of my more fun evenings.
There are two basic strategies that work well: education or stealth. Of the two, I recommend education. Stealth (aka, keeping those that would react badly out of the loop) is a well used short term solution that avoids putting yourself out there. I've used that one myself quite a bit back in the day. However, it has a tendency to backfire. When those that would you kept role playing from discover that you and others play it, they feel you have been keeping secrets from them, because, well, you have. (That happened to me once. Not what I'd call fun.)
The alternative is education. Start off my explaining what they already know. Compare it to monopoly. Everyone knows that you do not actually become a landowning tycoon when you play monopoly. You just pretend you are. From there, you explain it to them that D&D/Pathfinder is the same way. You don't become a battle-hardened dwarf or an elf that hides in the shadows. You explain that you just pretend you are, just like in monopoly.
Keep your analogies coming back to games they know. The more they see how it is like a game, the more it gets translated in their mind from cult-icon to game. Show them a battle mat and the minis and explain that instead of having one game board that you play over and over again, you draw the board so you can play the same game over and over again.
Two questions always come up because these are the two "dangers" of playing D&D: Magic and Death. When they ask about magic, don't back away from it. Acknowledge there is magic in the game. But then go right onto say that if it was a science fiction game you would use the same rules but you would call it technology. Make sure to mention that magic does not influence the world around you but the pretend world of the game. Use a fly spell as an example. Show them how the mini flies by lifting the mini higher. Maybe even make a whoshing noise when he is flying. More than once, I've seen someone laugh when I did that. Its typically the last connection they need to know that this literally is a game and not something dangerous.
Death also tends to come up. Again, acknowledge that character death happens in the game, but stress that all that means is that you make a new character. If they ask about how they've heard about people committing suicide over losing a character, acknowledge that there was a kid back in the 80's that did have mental issues and committed suicide and his mother blamed D&D for it. Tragic as it was, it could have been prevented if his mother has paid more attention to him and gotten him the help he needed.
You might want to also counter it by mentioning that studies have shown that the suicide rate for role players is massively lower than the population as a whole. This is because you are gaming regularly with the same group of people, getting to know them, making close friends that can help should someone in the group be in that vulnerable time in their life.
As others have said, invite them to sit in on a game.
All in all, best of luck (and God be with you) when you explain it to them.
Perhaps if they only play good clerics and paladins? lol
Thank you very much north king- love that answer and very helpful .
It is so easy gentle giant. We all live by restrictions and laws that are supposed to make our lives better. Being a christian I need to be aware of god's laws even more as they are for our eternal benefit. I could go out and have an affair but my wife presumably would not approve and there would be consequences. I do appreciate your comment thoug.
I am now off to work for aong day nursing at the local hospital. Enjoy yourselves
Now, I'm an atheist, so obviously my point of view is a little different from yours.
But I ask again, what does that have to do with the people in your church? You don't have to live by their restrictions and rules. If you are unsure about the answer concerning your religion, why not seek out the answer on your own? Who says that the people from your church knows the laws of your god better than you? They are just people too.
Have some confidence in your own ability to deem what is right and wrong for YOU, according to your faith. Not what is right or wrong in the minds of the people from your church.
Preach those words of wisdom.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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While I am not a christian, I knew quite a few ones. Including some very strict ones. (I could tell some stories...) I can only echo what some previous posters also stated: Unless your community is extremely narrow in its views, to the point of discounting the separation of fiction and reality (and as such, rejects theatre, movies and dramatic literature), you should have no need to worry.
Does an actor on stage sin when he, in character, uses horrible slurs, or stage-kisses another actor to whom he or she is not married? Most christians I know (even the stricter ones) tend to say no, because it is not real. Exactly the same applies to RPGs. Just because my character worships a false idol, I do not.
I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous. How do other Christians respond to this or are these two issues non compatible?
How do Christians watch TV without compromising their faith? How do Christians hang out with friends without compromising their faith? Roleplaying games aren't evil, or more harmful than talking to your buddies about cars.
Sure, some nutjobs (religious or otherwise) want to paint RPGs as the devil, probably because nothing brings a group together like a common enemy, imagined or otherwise. But c'mon. It's not going to rot your soul any more than playing with GI Joes did when you were a kid.
I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous. How do other Christians respond to this or are these two issues non compatible? I would love to hear the community's thoughts on the matter!
Also happy thanksgiving to the USA !
Thanks
Nick
Sent PM, check inbox.
Agnostic here. Grew up in a mostly Catholic town but was already quite the little heathen when I started playing at 13. I got into it because I was interested in folklore and mythology at an early age.
Some Christian sects are quite open to studying foreign cultures (ie the Jesuits)and comparative religion, while others regard everything outside their sect as "satanic." I wonder if the OP is Australian, where for a time BADD (Bothered About D&D) was quite influential in churches. If he hasn't already, the OP should direct his friends to Wikipedia and the D&D Controversy page and see how D&D=suicide=satanism is thouroughly debunked.
I remember some years ago, some guy was found dead somewhere in Sweden. No big deal, until the media got whiff of the fact that the guy was a Vampire: the Masquerade player. Media Frenzy ensured about his 'blood drinking', 'murder-glorifying' hobby, and droned on and on about the evil of roleplaying games for a couple of weeks.
Then it turned out that he was killed in a drug related kerfuffle and media interest dried up real quick.
*sigh*
I guess we should be thankful that he wasn't a Kult player. :p
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I remember some years ago, some guy was found dead somewhere in Sweden. No big deal, until the media got whiff of the fact that the guy was a Vampire: the Masquerade player. Media Frenzy ensured about his 'blood drinking', 'murder-glorifying' hobby, and droned on and on about the evil of roleplaying games for a couple of weeks.
Then it turned out that he was killed in a drug related kerfuffle and media interest dried up real quick.
*sigh*
I guess we should be thankful that he wasn't a Kult player. :p
I forgot all about the Vampire: The Masquerade hysteria. If they ever actually bothered to read the games they would realize that they were written by the "good" kids (grown up) who actually paid attention in school, particularly to their history, literature and social studies classes.
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Another Christian gamer here. Non-believers are discounting that there are valid objections to RPGing among the Christian community. Mostly, but not all, misplaced (Jon Brazer's post about education was excellent), but they can still be valid.
A Christian is supposed to (what I call) 'Think God'. And when you're out stealing and killing, and the world you play in is populated with evil characters, devils, etc, you're not Thinking God. I play Age of Conan: Being a Demonoligist is not something the average non-playing Christian is going to smile at.
Personally, like many others, I make the distinction that this is a game, and I also don't play evil characters:I had a nice email exchange with the Way of the Wicked AP creator about why I chose not to play his product (of which I read the free preview: it is very well done).
I like the Underworld movies. I think that's akin to liking D&D. But to simply dismiss the concern is over simplifying the issue. It CAN be an issue of concern. Again, read Jon's post above.
Note that the creator of the game intended that groups of good characters would work together to overcome evil. That's a pretty good starting point in presenting the game. Gary Gygax, in Role Playing Mastery, said:
Although players can take the roles of “bad guys” if they so choose, and if the game master allows it, evil exists in the game primarily as an obstacle for player characters to overcome. If they succeed in doing this, as time goes on, player characters become more experienced and more powerful - which enables them to contest successfully against increasingly stronger evil adversaries. Each character, by virtue of his or her chosen profession, has strengths and weaknesses distinctly different from those possessed by other types of characters.
No single character has all the skills and resources needed to guarantee success in all endeavors; favorable results can usually only be achieved through group effort. No single player character wins, in the sense that he or she defeats all other player characters; the goal of the forces of good can only be attained through cooperation, so that victory is a group achievement rather than an individual one.
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I have enjoyed reading the posts so far, and I am pleasantly surprised to see most everyone on topic and respectful of the OP's sincere question. I can only offer my own experience as a lifelong Christian, and a gamer for 30+ years. The game is just a game. I have played in serious RP groups, beer and pretzel groups, online groups, and groups with children. I have also played in groups that made me extremely uncomfortable. It's not the game - it's the people and how they choose to play it. A buddy and I left a group after the DM's wife started incorporating the Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Erotic Fantasy into the game. We actually left on pretty good terms, but made it clear that was not how we enjoyed our hobby. I have found that it is not for me to judge others, but I am responsible for not putting myself in obvious situations that would compromise my faith. My current group is made up of Christians of different stripes, an agnostic, and an avowed atheist, but we are all respectful towards one another, and we play the game in a way that is enjoyable to all of us. Best of luck with your soul-searching, and I hope that everything works out for the best.
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Now, I'm an atheist, so obviously my point of view is a little different from yours.
But I ask again, what does that have to do with the people in your church? You don't have to live by their restrictions and rules. If you are unsure about the answer concerning your religion, why not seek out the answer on your own? Who says that the people from your church knows the laws of your god better than you? They are just people too.
Have some confidence in your own ability to deem what is right and wrong for YOU, according to your faith. Not what is right or wrong in the minds of the people from your church.
I believe he is making quite a display of confidence in his own judgmenent by comming here and asking everyone about it. He admits not to be sure about the matter, and thus seeking more input to form a better opinion.
Always keep in mind we Christians, of all denominations, are pretty big on the whole community thing. After all, religion is a social expression of shared faith. We rely on each other to both better understand what we believe in and delve into questions together, help through times of crisis and work in tandem to engage in good deeds. I'd also say that's a pretty fundamental human trait, religious or otherwise.
Having your own judgment and critical thought capacity is fundamental, but so is gathering from the judgment and critical thought of others. Who is to say the people at his church said what they said out of thin air, rather than in his best interest? We may think, and hopefully know, they are mistaken in their interpretation, but that does not void the value of their opinions. Much on the contrary. The fact that they raised the question is much better than never asking it. Now Nick can go back and explain to them a new perspective on the matter based on, precisely, the opinions of other people (namely, us).
As my grandfather used to say, "God gave everyone a tiny piece of truth. That way, no one can find it wholy on his own, but instead has to seek it in the company of others".
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A Christian is supposed to (what I call) 'Think God'. And when you're out stealing and killing, and the world you play in is populated with evil characters, devils, etc, you're not Thinking God.
I think the whole "Christianity vs RPGs" disconnect is based in, what I like to call, the If You Can Think It You Can Do It Fallacy. The basic of which is, that if I can play a fiendish vampiric jerk in a roleplaying game, it's not hard to imagine that I would sneak around, seduce young women and drink their blood in real life.
But I don't think that's how most people work. And, you know, the people who think that's how everybody else works, those are the people who scare me. Odds are they are the ones with a really loose grip on reality.
A Christian is supposed to (what I call) 'Think God'. And when you're out stealing and killing, and the world you play in is populated with evil characters, devils, etc, you're not Thinking God.I think the whole "Christianity vs RPGs" disconnect is based in, what I like to call, the If You Can Think It You Can Do It Fallacy. The basic of which is, that if I can play a fiendish vampiric jerk in a roleplaying game, it's not hard to imagine that I would sneak around, seduce young women and drink their blood in real life.
But I don't think that's how most people work. And, you know, the people who think that's how everybody else works, those are the people who scare me. Odds are they are the ones with a really loose grip on reality.
Here I am to break up the love fest. Pat Pulling who was the mastermind behind BADD was a very silly woman and not very bright. I feel badly for the tragedy she suffered, but it had zippo to do with RPG's.It's hard to be respectful of plain xenophobia and ignorance.
A Christian is supposed to (what I call) 'Think God'. And when you're out stealing and killing, and the world you play in is populated with evil characters, devils, etc, you're not Thinking God.I think the whole "Christianity vs RPGs" disconnect is based in, what I like to call, the If You Can Think It You Can Do It Fallacy. The basic of which is, that if I can play a fiendish vampiric jerk in a roleplaying game, it's not hard to imagine that I would sneak around, seduce young women and drink their blood in real life.
But I don't think that's how most people work. And, you know, the people who think that's how everybody else works, those are the people who scare me. Odds are they are the ones with a really loose grip on reality.
I think it is more about the "purity of thought" thing being missinterpreted.
In Christian/Platonic morality, good deeds require good thought, while evil deeds require evil thought. For example, if you try to help someone but accidentally end up hurting him, you did not commit sin because your intentions were good (that does not mean you should not do your best to restitute the person. Responsibility is not gone just because it wasn't sinful). Instead, if you give someone help with the sole intention of that person making you a favour in return, then you are in sin, as your thoughts were wrong (in fact, that's where the traditional distate of Christianity towards money-lending comes from, and why the rates used are called "Interest", because the help was not being given out of kindness, but out of personal gain).
I'm a bit rusty on the sinful thought thing, but I remember from Catechesis that merely thinking something evil is not enough to sin, but "consistently dwelling in evil thought" is. From what I recall, "dwelling" in this case meant accepting the thought instead of rejecting it, thus not necessarily requiring action.
Therefore, for someone who does not understand that RPGs are about pretending, but not accepting, it might seem that players are committing the sin of dwelling in thoughts about slaughter and demons. While in truth, since we know it is not real, we are not actually accepting, and thus not dwelling, in said impure thoughts. Even if my character summons demons, I know I would not summon demons in real life even if I could.
Another Christian gamer here. Non-believers are discounting that there are valid objections to RPGing among the Christian community. Mostly, but not all, misplaced (Jon Brazer's post about education was excellent), but they can still be valid.
A Christian is supposed to (what I call) 'Think God'. And when you're out stealing and killing, and the world you play in is populated with evil characters, devils, etc, you're not Thinking God.
I was going to mention a similar issue so I'll use this as a springboard. Your ability to convince the Christians you're dealing with of their ignorance of D&D will partly depend on how they approach their faith. There are segments of the Christian community that believe that nothing is worthwhile in doing except in how it promotes their worship of god. While nearly a century old, James Joyce's A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man hints at this because it refers to food as something not to be enjoyed, but as something that must be eaten to give the strength to worship god. He's drawing on his own experiences with conservative Catholics in Ireland and his Catholic education.
I would expect a Christian of that sort to have problems with D&D as a pastime, but then, I would reasonably expect them to have trouble with many secular pastimes like watching sports as well (rather than participating in sports because at least participation builds a strong body - useful in worshiping god).
So, before you dive in and try to re-education people about D&D, figure out more about them first. That may help you determine the best course for engaging them.
I deal with the strange fact that my mother who was once a nun and is a devout Catholic (75% of her week is spent at church or doing "religious" activities) actually approves of Pathfinder as a fruitful hobby. Yet, my wife's Baptist mother is zealously opposed to Pathfinder because "it has magic"...and she read Harry Potter -_-.
My late mother in law was a primitive Baptist minister. She was sure that roleplaying games were the work of the devil, but never kept my wife from enjoying her games. Would that she had lived, I would have mentioned that these games brought us together at our wedding.
When I play games like Mass Effect or Knights of the Old Republic, I play through once as 'renegade/dark side' out of curiosity--but honestly, some of the choices make me feel pretty uncomfortable, even though it's 'just a game'. My natural gaming style tends to be mostly in alignment with my Christian ethos. Even in fantasy, doing the right thing for the right reasons is important, or else I'm acting against my faith. That said, when I play Dragon's Age I am willing to be a spellcaster, even though the Bible condemns witchcraft--typical gaming magic is pure fantasy with no basis in reality. But if I play a cleric, I refuse to 'worship' a specific "god"--I treat my character as using a nondescript power that is not all that different from magic or psionics. If a gaming group insisted on priests being tied to a specific mythoi, I would play a fighter or rogue instead. This is how I game and still feel good about my Christian beliefs.
If you base your religion off a fantasy RPG game you need some serious reality checks, or simply need to go to a mental doctor.
...or a scientology center.
But if I play a cleric, I refuse to 'worship' a specific "god"--I treat my character as using a nondescript power that is not all that different from magic or psionics. If a gaming group insisted on priests being tied to a specific mythoi, I would play a fighter or rogue instead. This is how I game and still feel good about my Christian beliefs.
I had a player much like this in my old group. He was extremely uncomfortable with playing a character who actively worshiped a deity, though he didn't seem to have problems with playing one who respected or admired one (such as a Monk). He typically played Sorcerers and Psionic types.
It's not a conflicting issue for me, no more than playing Evil is, as I can clearly differentiate the two from reality in my mind; however for this other player, and by your post for you, it's a problematic issue and I hope your gaming group respects your wishes enough to avoid forcing those things on you.
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This was an issue for me growing up, so here are my own thoughts.
I grew up in a non-religious family and they were supportive when I decided to go to a church and see what this whole religion thing was about.
Well one day there was a sermon that went against violent video games. Hmm. The short of it was violence in video games were bad and could lead to further things in real life.
At a young age of 12 this bothered me. I grew up playing board games like battle ship. And mouse trap. My thoughts at that age were if I play battleship which is violent, the whole blowing up enemy ships, how is that different from watching Beverly Hills cop?
Should I stop playing one of my favorite board strategy games? Let alone one that, according to the sermon, advocated animal abuse (mouse trap). What about the religious book that talks of armies going to war?
So as a human being I came to terms and had the logical thought process of it. It was just a game in fantasy world, and it’s not real life. It’s part of the story. It was no different than watching Miami Vice or Matlock. I was rational enough to know it was just pretend.
And of course I had a great mother who taught me morals of right and wrong before I even knew what religion was.
Look at the company, look at the rules, and check it against your religion. If they conflict or if you feel one is wrong or right over the other, that’s fine. You are human and entitled to your own opinion in it all. (The concept of free will, right?)
If you feel the game is bad or unmoral, use your best judgment and do not play it.
If something makes you uncomfortable, game or real life, walk away. Still love your neighbor. The classic golden rule.
Maybe I'm just rambling on, or maybe I'm echoing the statments of all of the above.
Free will is in most religions. Do what feels right.
As far as the playing a character that follows another deity...it's just in the rules, AND you are not actually worshipping another deity. Your character maybe doing it on paper, but you are not in real life. No false idol there.
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Atheist here. I was told (by Nuns, preachers, etc) that I was going to hell for:
1) Reading comic books. They bring people into the "occult". Note that the occult is anything they cannot fit into another box. Like superheroes who save people. Obviously evil.
2) Playing paintball. Somehow that was glorifying war. Still scratching my head on that one.
3) Dungeons and Dragons (or anything roleplay like) of course leads one into satanism. Later in life I explained you had to believe in god to believe in satan.
4) Part of the LGBTIQetc equation. Somehow I am both going to hell AND destroying western civilization as we know it. What have you done today?
5) Science. I am a big believer in this stuff. Of course with some of the religious sects this means I am going to burn (or freeze or just live in the afterlife with the absence of a god depending on what interpretation you may or may not follow).
I did have a really cool preacher man for awhile. If more of the belief system embraced people like him I may not have chucked it all.
I applaud those who seek to clarify and broaden their horizons rather than take things as face value. It is a sign of maturity and a sign of the rational mind. The world is ever changing and so is our place in it.
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Atheist here. I was told (by Nuns, preachers, etc) that I was going to hell for:
1) Reading comic books. They bring people into the "occult". Note that the occult is anything they cannot fit into another box. Like superheroes who save people. Obviously evil.
2) Playing paintball. Somehow that was glorifying war. Still scratching my head on that one.
3) Dungeons and Dragons (or anything roleplay like) of course leads one into satanism. Later in life I explained you had to believe in god to believe in satan.
4) Part of the LGBTIQetc equation. Somehow I am both going to hell AND destroying western civilization as we know it. What have you done today?
5) Science. I am a big believer in this stuff. Of course with some of the religious sects this means I am going to burn (or freeze or just live in the afterlife with the absence of a god depending on what interpretation you may or may not follow).
I did have a really cool preacher man for awhile. If more of the belief system embraced people like him I may not have chucked it all.
I applaud those who seek to clarify and broaden their horizons rather than take things as face value. It is a sign of maturity and a sign of the rational mind. The world is ever changing and so is our place in it.
Nuns can be a bit over the top. A friend of mine, here in Ireland, had a Nun and Priest tell him was going to hell because he kept getting an erection.
I believe he is making quite a display of confidence in his own judgmenent by comming here and asking everyone about it. He admits not to be sure about the matter, and thus seeking more input to form a better opinion.
Always keep in mind we Christians, of all denominations, are pretty big on the whole community thing. After all, religion is a social expression of shared faith. We rely on each other to both better understand what we believe in and delve into questions together, help through times of crisis and work in tandem to engage in good deeds. I'd also say that's a pretty fundamental human trait, religious or otherwise.
Having your own judgment and critical thought capacity is fundamental, but so is gathering from the judgment and critical thought of others. Who is to say the people at his church said what they said out of thin air, rather than in his best interest? We may think, and hopefully know, they are mistaken in their interpretation, but that does not void the value of their opinions. Much on the contrary. The fact that they raised the question is much better than never asking it. Now Nick can go back and explain to them a new perspective on the matter based on, precisely, the opinions of other people (namely, us).
As my grandfather used to say, "God gave everyone a tiny piece of truth. That way, no one can find it wholy on his own, but instead has to...
The underlying suggestion in my line of inquiry and suggestions is, of course, that he should seek out a different community if his present one can't be accepting of something he finds enjoyable and which is completely harmless. As many here have shown, there are lots of Christians out there who have no problem with RPGs, so they are clearly more rational thinking and more worthy of having as a community - IMO of course.
I am a christian gamer.
One of the things I heard about was a pastor who used D&D as a teaching tool. He would run games then have a sort of moral discussion after the game explaining the church's views on what happened in the game. Like Sunday school after a game session.
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I might have missed it, but I don't see any mention here of Gods in the typical D&D world, where I think some religious folk have a legitimate concern. In many games the characters we play are worshipers of gods that are not "God". Pretending (Cause that is what roleplaying is) to worship false gods can be a dangerous thing to some people. It can be seen as playing loose with your faith. Also playing magic users that can call on demons and devils. We have to realize that for most of us, a devil and a demon is just a category of monster, but there are people who truly believe in Demons and the Devil, and that they really can use things like this as tools. Remember, most truly religious people think that the Devil is real, and a master of manipulation, and can use things like this to slowly corrupt your thinking. They believe that strongly, so to them, your saying "It's just a game" is like someone doing coke for the first time saying "It's just one time". They know that some people can do it once, and not get addicted, but for others, that step is the first to a bad situation. They know some people can keep themselves from being manipulated by the Devil, but some can't and why risk your soul for a game?
Also, for those thinking, "just cause I like to play a demon summoner dosen't mean I'm gonna summon one". Think this through though. If the Devil is real and wants to get you to damn yourself, one tool would be to trivialize the act of consorting with him and Demons. Just like some sexual predators try to make sex "normal" so that way they break down the bonds of what is right and what is wrong. If the devil wanted to get more people open to the idea, then what better way than to make a game which "normalizes" calling upon forces we don't understand or normalizing the worship of "false" gods.
As a Christian we presume that demons and devils are real and are there to stop us living with Jesus in the next world. I don't want to summons demons as I feel that trivialities the bible. Strangely, I have no issue with gods- I feel pelor and bahamut have commonality with God and creates good moral discussions.
Thank you all for the comments- all great especially after an awful day at hospital when the staff are iller then the patients.
I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous. How do other Christians respond to this or are these two issues non compatible?
Hey Nick,
I'd like to return the question and ask you "how some in your church find that RPGs are dangerous". I ask because I'm a Christian by name only and therefore don't have the background to understand how offensive these games can be for a more devout person.
This isn't to find a counter-argument to theirs, but I'd like to understand better the issue(s) that is at stake. Is the issue explicitly about demons and evil cultists or about the concept that one of the player's job (the GM's) is to entertain the players by providing challenges for their character, including playing "bad guys". Would a "sanitized" version of the game be more acceptable for those who criticize RPGs, or is the concept of characterizing a non-biblical (and sometimes non-human) sword-wielding or magic-crafting hero offensive in its own? Are the pantheons of most fantasy settings too close to paganism for Christians to enjoy the game? Is referencing certain aspect of paganism (or satanism), even as the opposing "team", considered sinful in its own? Does "you must speak no evil" also mean "you must not speak about evil in any ways, shape or form"?
Otherwise, my personal opinion on RPGs in general is that if you find some of the content of the game unsatisfactory (or in this case offensive), you can always modify it or remove it. It doesn't matter if the content is mechanical (I don't like guns in my fantasy RPG), narrative (I don't like political intrigues in my fantasy RPG) or support material (I don't like demons in my fantasy RPG), the Pathfinder RPG system remains strong and versatile enough to do without and still offer a satisfying game.
'findel
I too am a christian gamer and have used the following arguements over the years:
First off, for an imbalanced mind, anything can be dangerous and taken to extremes. Rock music, controversial literature, and gaming do not, of themselves, force anyone into any type of behavior. (Though in gaming's case, it may lead to too many late nights) I am quick to point out to detractors how many horrors have been commited in the very name of religion!
Secondly, I let people know just what sort of folks I game with. Seated around our table are all sorts of white collar professionals, all intelligent and open minded people. Are we geeks? Sure, but I might add not one of us has a criminal record either. And should anyone think DnD glorifies violence, I am quick to point out that the only weapon my friends have ever wielded effectively was sarcasm.
It may be worthy of note to mention, that for my own part, because of my spiritual beliefs I have never been comfortable playing a cleric or paladin. Its part of that "thou shalt have no other gods before me" thing. That's just one of my own pecularities though.
Christian gamer is I. I no longer belong to a particular denomination because of issues that I have had with churches and their structured hierarchies. But that has not changed the fact that I see myself as a christian.
There are some at least semi-valid concerns.
First, I have known several people for whom even pretending to worship other gods feels like idolatry or blasphemy. If they feel that way and they do it anyway, then you could make the case that it is weakening their faith. I don't feel that way and I don't feel like it is weakening my faith, but I can see their side and they really do feel that way. (I would like to point out there is a difference here between whether it actually bothers the player and whether it bother others who then try to lay a guilt trip on the player. I personally refuse to allow others to make me feel guilty for something that I feel is acceptable.)
There are a couple of ways that can be handled. Do not play religious characters. Or play the Chrisitian religion.
I have seen it a few times where the GM will treat it like a cleric not worshiping a specific diety dedicated to the 'concept' of goodness. The player will treat it like the Chrisitian religion and all the good gods in the pantheon are angels in service to Jehovah. Not everyone else agrees with their belief, but that matches with the real world where not everyone believes the same things about any faith. It actually worked out pretty well all around and gave some additional RP avenues and campaign story lines while the cleric tried to start up a new faith.
Second, there are some people that have difficulty separating pretending from the rest of their lives.
Many gamers have met or heard about the players that will spend inordinate amounts of time describing how he/she tortures some victim with a gleam in their eye and are obviously getting turned on by it. I am happy to admit, those people creep me out and I won't game with them. I think they would be alot better off without the stimiulus hours spent playing an anti-paladin.
I have heard the argument, that it is a way to get it out of their system so they won't be tempted to act on those impulses. It could be true. I will not pretend that I am a mental health professional. All I can say is the few people like that that I knew for any length of time di not seem to be 'getting it out of their system.' From all that I heard or observed they just seemed to get worse. But again, I don't know. Maybe they would have got worse faster without the outlet. I have no way to know.
Yes, I believe those people were already off balance. Games, movies, books, or just bad company could have had the same affect and maybe did. Also, those people are few and far between. But like many myths, phobias, legends, and old wives tales there is at least some small basis for concern.
To the OP;
If you are reasonably mentally healthy, you can clearly see a distinction between pretend and reality, and you don't feel like it is weakening your faith then it should not be a problem for you.
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I Corinthians 10:23 tells us that we are allowed to do what we want to, but not everything encourages us to grow. RPGs can be a positive and creative outlet, but can also be pursued in an unhealthy way (as can any other pursuit). We need to make efforts to consistently set a positive example for our friends and make our adventures ones we would be proud to share.
Jesus spent many an evening with his friends, telling stories and enjoying himself. That isn't so different from some of the things we do.
All of the old rumors and falsehoods attributed to roleplaying back in the heyday of the "Moral Panic" of the late 'seventies through the early 'nineties, have been either disproven by actual studies and statistics, or were found to be so lacking any evidence that the FBI gave up looking.
Being afraid of these things is now an anachronism. I would first advise anybody still on that horse to return their haircut and wardrobe to 1983 on the double.
However, if rational thought fails to intercede on your behalf, I suggest you make a deal with whoever wants to stop your fun. You will indeed refrain from playing, if and ONLY IF, they will read this whole article:
...every word, from beginning to end, totally without bias, out loud for their neighbors and relatives to hear, and ONLY IF, after doing so, they AND their more reasonable neighbors and relatives all still agree, without prejudice, after hearing it, that these games are in any way harmful and that your relatives and their neighbors are not just complete tools for believing any of it.
An interesting aside, Tracy Hickman doesn't work or do events (normally) on Sundays due to his religious beliefs. Yet he's reconciled his beliefs with working in the industry.
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Late to this discussion, but took me some time to write a response, and it's still a bit rambly and I'm not sure if it's useful, so apologies for that. I probably get a little too into my own spiritual POV and don't mean to overstep what's appropriate to discuss, and I just hope this is taken in the light it's intended.
As a member of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), the one concern I see pop up amongst us is -- does playing games that feature violence encourage, teach, or espouse violence? Some of my fellow Quakers feel it does. Because Jesus teaches us to not be violent but to love one another, and we have our Testimony of peace which forms one of the pillars of Quaker theology. Thus violence even in fantasy is something to take seriously as far as how it may or may not affect someone.
Now, I feel I must note am a member of the Liberal sect of Friends (umbrellaed by Friends General Conference), which has expanded from Quakerism's Christian roots to embrace a more universalist viewpoint (other sects are still firmly Christian). I personally find the teachings of Jesus Christ to be a deep part of my own path. But I'm not a "typical Christian" (whatever a typical Christian is), so I don't know how much the OP'd take into account my perspective, but here it is for what it's worth. Our sect doesn't have clergy or much firm dogma, so deciding what is the right path for us is to a degree, up to each of us--though of course we can and often should seek guidance from our fellow Friends, and especially our Ministry and Counsel committee. The concept that unites all Friends is the idea that all have a connection to the Divine, that all have the potential to be ministers. So in part, we have to build this connection listen to the leadings God gives us.
Although I've played games of all kinds almost all my life, thinking about how that fits into my faith is something I've often thought about, and I do "check-ins" with myself from time to time to be sure I am on a path I can spiritually live with with regards to my choices of hobby.
I find that what many games, and role playing games in particular, do is help me imagine what the consequences of violence are -- and they are often dire. Although D&D often has easy ways out of being wounded or even dying, I think it still provides a safe arena of the imagination to explore what violence does and what it means -- and in turn, makes me appreciate my commitment to nonviolence in real life. It also provides me a safe outlet for frustration and other creative energies (my explaining this once earned me the nickname "Death Quaker" from one of my friends, which clearly stuck). I think sometimes those of us who teach against violence who forbid children--and adults--all exposure to it may find that those so sheltered will not truly understand what violence really does, what it really is. And I find it challenges to me to think about -- what would I be willing to fight for, in terms of violence? And in what situations do I strive to find nonviolent solutions to conflict instead? (Though many Quakers are, I am not actually a pacifist, though I strive to practice nonviolence. And while I find personally it is important for me to do this for my religious/Christian path, what anyone else decides is right for them is between them and God, in my opinion.)
I also of course don't mind the "fantasy violence" because beyond it being in the imagination and being an outlet, it is often versus enemies that are "evil" in a way that can be a nice safe extreme that does not exist in the real world. Although according to my own faith, "you can't kill the Devil with a gun or a sword," you can kill fantasy creatures of pure evil in an RPG, and there's a nice, simplistic satisfaction to that. Would that we could in the real world, but in an escapist universe, where there are zombies and demons and greedy human-eating dragons, playing out some pretend slaughter of such things I don't find to be a violation of my principles or that of my religious community's.
So in short -- I am at peace for the time being with my choice of hobby, even though in some ways others might see it as at odds with the teachings of my community. I find it a good creative outlet, and an obvious and simple fantasy -- and one that, well used, can in fact be used to teach how to live a goodly life in its own allegorical way. Most importantly, I feel that I am not shutting out the "Light within" by playing these games and can even heed it while doing so. And I am surprised but pleased that most members of my community accept my gaming ways for what they are -- and are indeed amused by the oxymoronic "Death Quaker" handle. I had a discussion recently with a fellow Friend whose son was really into D&D and she spoke glowingly of its ability to teach creative thinking and encourage the imagination.
Now, sometimes being tempted to buy lots and lots of gaming supplies might cause examination to how that sits with the simplicity testimony (which features such advices as "don't spend more than you have") but that's probably a talk for another time. ;)
As for the more commonly discussed concern of whether D&D, by dint of featuring magic and demons in its stories, encourages real world Satanism and practice of dark magics, it does no more so than any other story, regardless of the medium the story takes. Mentioning it doesn't make it real -- or even the Bible by mentioning demons or witchcraft could be said to encourage such dark practices. If someone were to take a D&D book and say they could cast dark magic from it, their problem is not D&D, their problem is an inability to separate fantasy from reality. And that, sadly, is a problem that is often blamed on the symptom (e.g., D&D) rather than the source (e.g., a severe psychological disorder). Discouraging doing so, whether related to gaming or any other consumption of media or storytelling, would be a beneficial thing to do, to be sure those in need of help were recognized as such, and the true causes identified and, over time, dealt with. A compassionate individual, Christian or otherwise, I hope would be called to help such people in the fullest way possible if they are in a position/with the ability to do so.
As to what the OP or anyone should do -- as I believe, like other Friends do -- that God speaks through us if only we listen, that you must look to yourself and listen to that still small voice within. So ultimately, anything I just said doesn't really matter. The Spirit will lead you to what is the right and true choice for you.