The dice gods have let their will be known through many a decisive roll.
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If your faith is compromised by Dungeons and Dragons, than you never had faith to begin with.
I disagree. A lot of things can become what we'd call idols. Gaming takes up a lot of time and money - depending on whether you use the hobby or the hobby uses you. I'd tell anyone that asks about Christian gamers that Paul very clearly points out all things are permitted for Christians but not all things are profitable for Christians. Sexual sin or gluttony gets in the way of your relationship with God. So can gaming. If you can't hit a table without becoming a different person who drops profanity and views their faith as something left at the door, you shouldn't be doing it til your priorities get sorted out.
But by the same token, God says to Peter "call nothing unclean that I have called clean". Biblical principle dictates our hobbies and behaviors, and not an eisogetic list of dos and don'ts.
Some great advice I learned the hard way: I once pointed out at a gathering of BSU friends that if any of my fellow Christians drank beer or were more than 20 pounds overweight, they had no business judging my roleplaying. That was a stupid as it was ineffective. Your church elders and friends want God's best for you. But they either don't understand the game or don't understand salvation and grace, or some combination. And neither of those is unique. Be gentle with them when you talk about your hobbies, and don't be defensive. The more spiritually mature your response, the more people will see that your relationship with Christ is in charge of your hobbies and not the other way around.
Paul thought even marriage detracted from a persons ability to be a good Christian.
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Sometimes it does. Some people get married for the wrong reasons and whatever plans God had for them to further the Gospel are compromised. But then Paul never said it's wrong to marry or there's anything wrong with it. He said he wished everyone could be so focused on the Kingdom that marriage, sex, etc weren't distractions.
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I'm a Christian and I've rpging for over thirty years. I've never found a conflict. Some of the greatest fantasy authors were or are Christian. If anything, I can witness by being a considerate and fair player and GM. It gets noticed.
Disclaimer: I am an Atheist, many of my friends are Christians of all kinds of flavours. I do not believe I need to bash people over the head with my Atheism, just as if you want to tell me about god you will get a I am very happy you are happy but I am not interested.
Like most Australians my family was not religious but my mother felt the need to send me to Christian youth group and the Christian Beach Fellowship, they were excellent surfers and it was good to go surfing with a group of guys that were both responsible and would take time out to teach you proper water safety.
When I started playing D&D it was at the time of the 60 minutes stories about steam tunnels and kids murdering their families.
Naturally my parents were concerned & my best friends brother who was a leader in the youth group was very conflicted as he played in our games as well.
I took the education approach with my parents and made them play a few games. My dad said it was boring and I should be outside playing rugby or doing something real but other than that he could see no danger in it.
My mother liked the game but I was at the kick the door in kill the monsters and take their stuff phase of gaming and she got tired of that.
I overheard my mother talking to one of her friends saying I was going up to stay at a mates place to play D&D for the weekend.
Her friend not a religious person gave hear an earfull about how dangerous the game was about the murders and the suicides. My mum said in every case of murder or suicide there was drugs and abuse involved and that the parents and the media had used it as convenient scape goat to cover up the fact they were crap parents. My mum told her friend how disappointed she was with her and said that she could give her the books to read.
My friends brother also took the education approach and the respecting the wishes of parents of the kids in Youth Group.
He didn't talk about it at CYG unless asked and he didnt play it at Youth Group. If parents came to him with questions about the game he would sit them down and go through the game show them what it was about and let them decide what they wanted for their children.
I had another friend who refused to play D&D because it was forbidden by the elders of his church but would play Starwars, Shadowrun and Robotech.
But if I play a cleric, I refuse to 'worship' a specific "god"--I treat my character as using a nondescript power that is not all that different from magic or psionics. If a gaming group insisted on priests being tied to a specific mythoi, I would play a fighter or rogue instead. This is how I game and still feel good about my Christian beliefs.I had a player much like this in my old group. He was extremely uncomfortable with playing a character who actively worshiped a deity, though he didn't seem to have problems with playing one who respected or admired one (such as a Monk). He typically played Sorcerers and Psionic types.
It's not a conflicting issue for me, no more than playing Evil is, as I can clearly differentiate the two from reality in my mind; however for this other player, and by your post for you, it's a problematic issue and I hope your gaming group respects your wishes enough to avoid forcing those things on you.
I had a friend who very much did the same. He got into Starcraft a bunch of years ago, and I have not seen him since.
Nuns can be a bit over the top. A friend of mine, here in Ireland, had a Nun and Priest tell him was going to hell because he kept getting an erection.Atheist here. I was told (by Nuns, preachers, etc) that I was going to hell for:
1) Reading comic books. They bring people into the "occult". Note that the occult is anything they cannot fit into another box. Like superheroes who save people. Obviously evil.
2) Playing paintball. Somehow that was glorifying war. Still scratching my head on that one.
3) Dungeons and Dragons (or anything roleplay like) of course leads one into satanism. Later in life I explained you had to believe in god to believe in satan.
4) Part of the LGBTIQetc equation. Somehow I am both going to hell AND destroying western civilization as we know it. What have you done today?
5) Science. I am a big believer in this stuff. Of course with some of the religious sects this means I am going to burn (or freeze or just live in the afterlife with the absence of a god depending on what interpretation you may or may not follow).
I did have a really cool preacher man for awhile. If more of the belief system embraced people like him I may not have chucked it all.
I applaud those who seek to clarify and broaden their horizons rather than take things as face value. It is a sign of maturity and a sign of the rational mind. The world is ever changing and so is our place in it.
that's...extreme.
I had another friend who refused to play D&D because it was forbidden by the elders of his church but would play Starwars, Shadowrun and Robotech
That was me, at the very start of my hobby many many years ago. Replace Shadowrun with Marvel Super Heroes, however. I didn't get into Shadowrun until YEARS later.
Nuns can be a bit over the top. A friend of mine, here in Ireland, had a Nun and Priest tell him was going to hell because he kept getting an erection.
that's...extreme.
I dunno... I'd take it as a compliment. :D
"The Devil don't scare you, sister, but this does? Just wait till you see it in action..."
I know, I know... I'm going to Hell. ;)
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Nuns can be a bit over the top. A friend of mine, here in Ireland, had a Nun and Priest tell him was going to hell because he kept getting an erection.
Was it Sister Bernice?
I had another friend who refused to play D&D because it was forbidden by the elders of his church but would play Starwars, Shadowrun and RobotechThat was me, at the very start of my hobby many many years ago. Replace Shadowrun with Marvel Super Heroes, however. I didn't get into Shadowrun until YEARS later.
We were confused about Shadowrun... Elves, Dwarves, Magic - he said there were no demons or devils.
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Someone mentioned the possible problems with Christians playing characters that worship non-Christian deities. I think a little historical perspective can turn up some good answers to that.
From the Middle Ages through the Renaissance, and really all the way up until fairly recently, it was very common for Christians to use the pre-Christian Greco-Roman gods as artistic symbols. Jupiter, Venus, Apollo, Athena, and the like were seen as images of various aspects of God's nature. Imperfect symbols, certainly, but still valuable and beautiful. You see this in great literature, from Paradise Lost and The Divine Comedy up through C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy (especially in That Hideous Strngth and The Chronicles of Narnia.
Many Christians also had no problems portraying non-Christian characters as virtuous and worthy of imitation. Think of Odysseus, Aeneas, and Beowulf: all worshipers of non-Christian gods, but still characters that Christians admired and portrayed positively in fiction.
Portraying a devout worshipper of Pelor, Sarenrae, or Erastil isn't really any different. If you think that a Christian should try to play a character that's righteous and heroic, there's no reason why their fidelity to a good god shouldn't be a part of that.
I had another friend who refused to play D&D because it was forbidden by the elders of his church but would play Starwars, Shadowrun and RobotechThat was me, at the very start of my hobby many many years ago. Replace Shadowrun with Marvel Super Heroes, however. I didn't get into Shadowrun until YEARS later.We were confused about Shadowrun... Elves, Dwarves, Magic - he said there were no demons or devils.
And don't forget that all religions are quite active in the world of Shadownrun- there are more than a few Catholic priests adepts who practice faith based magics, etc.
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I remember a constant theme of a Mulhorandi (Egyptian) character was "the battle belongs to the Lord". I love to play religious characters, and when those are good characters, I take as inspiration elements of grace or the sovereignty of a deity and I don't think those characters would be as fun for me or everyone else if I didn't believe in and study the Bible and what it teaches about grace.
I had another friend who refused to play D&D because it was forbidden by the elders of his church but would play Starwars, Shadowrun and RobotechThat was me, at the very start of my hobby many many years ago. Replace Shadowrun with Marvel Super Heroes, however. I didn't get into Shadowrun until YEARS later.We were confused about Shadowrun... Elves, Dwarves, Magic - he said there were no demons or devils.
So he lied?
So he lied?I had another friend who refused to play D&D because it was forbidden by the elders of his church but would play Starwars, Shadowrun and RobotechThat was me, at the very start of my hobby many many years ago. Replace Shadowrun with Marvel Super Heroes, however. I didn't get into Shadowrun until YEARS later.We were confused about Shadowrun... Elves, Dwarves, Magic - he said there were no demons or devils.
I don't recall demons or devils in the fiction, although there are powerful evil spirits, as well as the insects, which I assumed were the worst that things got on a spiritual level.
I don't recall demons or devils in the fiction, although there are powerful evil spirits, as well as the insects, which I assumed were the worst that things got on a spiritual level.So he lied?I had another friend who refused to play D&D because it was forbidden by the elders of his church but would play Starwars, Shadowrun and RobotechThat was me, at the very start of my hobby many many years ago. Replace Shadowrun with Marvel Super Heroes, however. I didn't get into Shadowrun until YEARS later.We were confused about Shadowrun... Elves, Dwarves, Magic - he said there were no demons or devils.
I don't remember any Demons or Devils in 1st Ed ... In later fiction there were the Horrors that were ported over from Earthdawn.
No alignments in SR so the closest things to evil outsiders have a different feel to them.
Anyway, D&D is a diversion, and if your faith can be shaken by a diversion then you probably have issues with your own faith. In the words of Maria Banford's mom: "Whatever you think about all the time is what you worship." I think about RPGs all the time, ergo I worship the hobby. That's alright for me, I am not a person of faith. If I were, I might be concerned about putting my hobby before my god.
Tolkien felt conflicted the same way about his hobby (cited from his letters), and I think we can all agree that his work was ultimately a great boon to spreading christian ideals. So even the people who wrestle with the issue can end up being good (or even great) christians.
As to the portrayals of magic and demons and the like, that really depends on where your faith comes down on the issue of fiction.
Do as your spiritual leader says, or find your own balance with it. I'm not sure what you expect the internet to provide other than instant chaos with your post as a flimsy excuse to take up long-burning grudges.
I am a big fan of d&d and pathfinder but some in my church find that RPGs are dangerous..
Can you list how playing a RPG can be "religiously dangerous"?
What exactly about the game can be deemed "dangerous"?Because until I see some examples, I have no idea what you mean.
Thanks --
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This is what I thought. No answer.
You guys are being used.
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Can you list how playing a RPG can be "religiously dangerous"?
What exactly about the game can be deemed "dangerous"?
This is what I thought. No answer.
You guys are being used.
"Whatever you think about all the time is what you worship." I think about RPGs all the time, ergo I worship the hobby. That's alright for me, I am not a person of faith. If I were, I might be concerned about putting my hobby before my god.
Can you list how playing a RPG can be "religiously dangerous"?
What exactly about the game can be deemed "dangerous"?
This is what I thought. No answer.
You guys are being used.
No, we are just, as per usual, ignoring you.
No, we are just, as per usual, ignoring you.
I thought it was a perfectly reasonable question. No reason to get all snarky about it.
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No, we are just, as per usual, ignoring you.I thought it was a perfectly reasonable question. No reason to get all snarky about it.
The question was reasonable, if loaded.
The second post was needlessly hostile.
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No, we are just, as per usual, ignoring you.I thought it was a perfectly reasonable question. No reason to get all snarky about it.The question was reasonable, if loaded.
The second post was needlessly hostile.
This.
Though I do apologize for pre-caffiene morning snark/overly-blunt honesty.
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The alternative is education. Start off my explaining what they already know. Compare it to monopoly. Everyone knows that you do not actually become a landowning tycoon when you play monopoly. You just pretend you are. From there, you explain it to them that D&D/Pathfinder is the same way. You don't become a battle-hardened dwarf or an elf that hides in the shadows. You explain that you just pretend you are, just like in monopoly.
Keep your analogies coming back to games they know. The more they see how it is like a game, the more it gets translated in their mind from cult-icon to game. Show them a battle mat and the minis and explain that instead of having one game board that you play over and over again, you draw the board so you can play the same game over and over again.
This +1
I have tended to use children playing "Nerf War" or "Cowboys and Indians", as those deal with death a little more than monopoly. Are these games noncompatible? Because that's all I'm doing, just instead of running around, I'm reading and doing a bunch of math.
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Jumping in late here, and I haven't read every post in the thread.
I'm 25, a practicing Catholic, and was raised by a Catholic/Lutheran Father/Mother (respectively) who MET by playing AD&D in college. Faith and gaming have never been at odds for me and in fact, I often enjoy the fantasy setting as a means to explore moral dilemmas, create particularly obvious black and white good/evil dichotomies (unlike the wash of grey in our lives), etc..
I remember having a high school friend whose parents were dead set against him playing 3rd edition with me because they were a "Christian household", but numerous other comparable (playing Diablo) or much stupider (getting drunk and arrested in high school) things were "Ok", and "a part of growing up". That always rankled me.
I guess I'd turn it around as well. "How a game like Pathfinder be deemed "religiously dangerous?"" Only, as I see it, if one begins to take it too seriously or spends too much time/money on it. Even though it's just a game, everything can relate to one's faith or lack thereof. From my perspective, it's quite harmless entertainment that has a ton of perks.
Haven't you heard?
Mazes and Monsters is a far-out game.
...I wonder if I got that quote right this time.
In the early 90s I bought my Dragon Magazines from a local mom and pop comic shop. I went in to pick up my latest copy and the woman who owned the place told me she'd seen a movie based on true events and would no longer carry it. The movie, of course, was "Mazes and Monsters".
BTW, you can watch the entire movie on Youtube.
Russian Orthodox here, and I don't see how it conflicts with anyone's faith. Given some of the stuff I've written, and I don't see a problem, that should say something. :)
These days isn't those godless video game players that are damned to the fiery abysses of hell?
There aren't enough of us table-top gamers to really make it worth the effort to try and save our souls.
What's a "video game"?
I know only murder simulators.
Haven't you heard?
Mazes and Monsters is a far-out game.
...I wonder if I got that quote right this time.
Sweet I got a reference
Wow, surprised by the number of people posting here.
I'm a Catholic gamer and one of my groups I GM for is mostly made up of Catholics. We are currently up to book 5 of Serpent's Skull and having a great time. No one has had any problems with the fact that we're playing characters who are going around casting spells and such.
That said, I find this group does tend to be more restrictive about the content of their games. For example, sometimes I do have to tone down some of the graphic stuff in Paizo's adventure paths so I don't make anyone uncomfortable. I'm also pretty sure that the group will never play any adventure path involving the Runelords because the focus on 'Sin Magic' would sketch them out, lol.
I'm not sure if all religious groups are like this, but at least this is the case with mine. I'm not quite as 'sensitive' as some of my players, but personally I don't think the restriction has been lessening the fun at all ;)
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Quick note, Jesus was not killed for telling people to be nice to each other. :b
But the rest of the post is right on. Roleplaying is no different than seeing movies or watching football. If you ruin your witness or betray your faith while roleplaying, it is also no different than seeing movies or watching football. Christianity is a relationship with God, not a dogmatic checklist of sins.
Quick note, Jesus was not killed for telling people to be nice to each other. :b
It's a Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy reference.
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I heard of a group who changed the pagan pantheon to Catholic style saints so as to ease the discomfort of certain players. So gods like Pelor or Ilmater became saints serving under God. So a Cleric of Pelor was serving God but following the example of Saint Pelor.
If a Christian actor can play a non-Christian role on TV or movies, than a Christian role-player can play D&D without compromising their faith. The game does not play out any differently or more in-depth than that.
I heard of a group who changed the pagan pantheon to Catholic style saints so as to ease the discomfort of certain players. So gods like Pelor or Ilmater became saints serving under God. So a Cleric of Pelor was serving God but following the example of Saint Pelor.
Now that's something I'd find really uncomfortable.
On the other hand, the religious system in Darklands was amazingly awesome. There is also the tribunal religion in Morrowind with its many saints.
These days isn't those godless video game players that are damned to the fiery abysses of hell?
There aren't enough of us table-top gamers to really make it worth the effort to try and save our souls.
What's a "video game"?
I know only murder simulators.
Then I suggest playing Harvest Moon. You don't even slaughter your animals.
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I would like to thank everybOdy especially John McCoy ( I wasn't expected a gaming company president to reply). All the comments have been excellent and I am going to add some good old fashioned moral quandaries the next time I DM.
Is there any kind of company guidance that Paizo has to follow ? I am interested to hear from the industry leader? Thanks
Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I have read several times in this thread how the bible condemns "magic/witchcraft/etc," which is at least a partial basis for many sects of Christianity to have a problem with RPG's, Harry Potter, etc.
But, I have a question; if the bible is against "magic," then why were the "good guys" parting seas, walking on water, transmuting water to wine, creating bread and fish out of thin air, healing wounds(equivalent to Cure spells)etc? Or is that somehow not magic as well?
Again, not looking for a fight. Just looking for an honest answer.
Simple answer is that it isn't magic, those are miracles, performed by God through a human representative. The power isn't their own (with the exception of Jesus), and they aren't claiming it as their own.
Magic in the Bible generally refers to charlatanry by people claiming they had supernatural power of their own, without any connection or devotion to God (sometimes to a pagan deity, sometimes just something innate in themselves), and using that to gain recognition and praise.
The waters are kind of muddied a bit by modern uses of the words, and the fact that several miracles are the basis for a lot of spells in the game world, which doesn't differentiate much between arcane and divine magic.
Maybe because that was supernatural and the power was divine and came from god. Anything that comes fromGod is good. Sorcery I think would be classified as evil as it is not from god and is possibly from Satan . Only a suggestion
Heck, I'm an atheist, and even I can answer that (although it's not an answer I agree with, obviously). For the Old Testament stuff, those weren't actually performed by the good guys, those were Jahve/Elohim being a bad-ass on the behalf of his posse.
As for the New Testament, same thing, except when it's Jesus doing it since he is God, so again, magic didn't do it - God did it.
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Beaten to the quick by a kobold and a rust monster... Time for some rowing practice.
Simple answer is that it isn't magic, those are miracles, performed by God through a human representative. The power isn't their own (with the exception of Jesus), and they aren't claiming it as their own.
Magic in the Bible generally refers to charlatanry by people claiming they had supernatural power of their own, without any connection or devotion to God (sometimes to a pagan deity, sometimes just something innate in themselves), and using that to gain recognition and praise.
The waters are kind of muddied a bit by modern uses of the words, and the fact that several miracles are the basis for a lot of spells in the game world, which doesn't differentiate much between arcane and divine magic.
But, D&D Clerics are doing the same thing... Even the demon cultists are performing their own little "miracles" according to their patron deities...
I can't explain why people have an issue with it, beyond guessing that they have a problem with it connected to what they see as pagan deities.
*shrug* As I stated earlier in the thread, it's not something I have a problem with personally. So the best I can do is theorize.
But, D&D Clerics are doing the same thing... Even the demon cultists are performing their own little "miracles" according to their patron deities...Simple answer is that it isn't magic, those are miracles, performed by God through a human representative. The power isn't their own (with the exception of Jesus), and they aren't claiming it as their own.
Magic in the Bible generally refers to charlatanry by people claiming they had supernatural power of their own, without any connection or devotion to God (sometimes to a pagan deity, sometimes just something innate in themselves), and using that to gain recognition and praise.
The waters are kind of muddied a bit by modern uses of the words, and the fact that several miracles are the basis for a lot of spells in the game world, which doesn't differentiate much between arcane and divine magic.
Yeah, but basically, if you're a Christian: the Bible = real (except when it's allegory); whereas Dungeons & Dragons = Not real.
Again, not trying to start a fight. I'm keeping it RPG specific and on topic. Otherwise, I'd be here all day.