I see where since he's running a shop and he wants to resell it at market price and he needs to make a profit means I wont get market price from him. Welcome to pawn stars and all that. But seriously selling it at cost makes no sense at all.
I turned the mundane magical and now its worth less than the sum of its parts?
Screw the adventuring i'm goint to go slay me some cows and trees and sell the wood and leather to the local tanners and carpenters. Thats where the money is at.
Maybe this is what they mean by 'high fantasy'... If you think making magic items will turn you a profit you must be living in a world with fairys and yooneecorns.
I handle this two ways.
A) No magic item Wal-Mart. Even in the biggest most well-connected city there's only a chance you can get what you want and even then, there's a serious wait time.
B) Crafting is not done at a discount. You pay full price to craft. The benefit is that you can get exactly what you want (and often taking less time to do so than the person shopping by catalog in point A).
Why would their be any magic items available for sale at all, if no one makes any profit off of them?
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In soviet russia, the game economy plays you!
In my games I just houserule that all equipment is bought and sold at full price. Equipment that is personally crafted is sold at crafting price. Is it realistic? Nope. But, unlike in 2nd edition and earlier, 3.X/PF uses gold as one metric of PC power levels.
It does not make sense that when you trade one level of power for another you cut the amount of power you have. For that matter, I could just stop calling it GP and start calling it Equipment Points. 1 EQ = 1 GP.
- Gauss
When I am the DM, one of the few things I outlaw is the 5% reduction in cost for magical items trait. Also, if players are using the 10%/30% reduction in costs for their magical items, so do the enemies. And the enemies have an alignment not in the book. Also, I have to approve of magical items being created (I write them down to make sure people are not cheated by bringing in items from no where).
Also, my games have no copper, silver, or platinum in dungeons. All money is gold, gems, or artwork. Gems cannot be turned into gold, but can be used to purchase items.
[QUOTE="Digitalelf"
Selling Treasure
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price, including weapons, armor, gear, and magic items. This also includes character-created items.Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself.
Note those first two magical words, In General. As in, most of the time, commonly occurring, the norm but not the be all.
Another way to actually MAKE money via crafting by RAW is make items via commission. Find someone that wants the item made, find out their stats (class alignment and skills) and then CUT CORNERS! use all those cost reducers you can to drive the crafting cost down, then sell it for half BASE (listed) price. The NPC is happy with an item that is MADE for them, and you profit by RAW.
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Crafting allows... Double... The wealth? Where the heck is that coming from?
Apart from a small percentage of actual gems and coins, most loot than can be found, at least in adventure paths, seem to be items. Items can be sold for half their value. Crafting can make items for half the value.
I see the benefit of crafting in situations where the party finds, say, +1 long sword.
Example one: The party's fighter specializes in longsword, all is well.
Example two: The party's fighter specializes in whips, and the item is useless for the party.
Without crafting feats, the example two party is worse off than party number one - the other got 1000gp worth equipment that they can use, while the other one, after selling the sword, only gets 500 gp worth of loot they can be used. If one member of the party has picked craft magic arms and armour, I think it's only fair that can turn the 500gp into a whip +1 - in the end, both parties got a +1 weapon, and no wealth was doubled in any manner.
In effect, the benefit of crafting feats are that they effectively allow you to choose what kind of magical loot you find, while keeping it's value the same, as opposed to finding only loot that might not be useful because of party choices.
Removed a post. Please post civilly.
Tomppa:
The WBL FAQ states that crafters only count the crafted item cost against their WBL, not the crafted item price. So when a GM checks to see how close his players PCs are to the WBL chart the crafter might look like he has more than anyone else when in fact he does not. IF the crafter crafts every single thing he has, he could look like he has double when he in fact is right on par.
And before someone states 'wow! that is double their value!' remember that crafted items add about a +1 to attack/damage and +2 AC (for Magic Arms and Armor) and a +1 ability score modifier and +1 resistance bonus (Wondrous Item) for many builds.
- Gauss
My other, rambling post helped me realize a much clearer question that might provoke more productive conversation. Assuming that a PC has one or more item creation feats, how much of their wealth can they reasonably expect to be in the form of items that they have crafted for themselves? In other words, is a PC with item creation feats being "cheated" if the pace of adventures does not allow enough downtime to use X% of their wealth to craft items? If so, what is the threshold?
EDIT: What about long-term campaigns? If a campaign begins and provides ample crafting time from say, levels 1-13, but crafting time is more limited up to 20, how does that affect things?
Magic item crafting feats should be NPC only. Why?
It takes the game into the direction of the accounting chronicles.
It makes players obsess over filling their magic item slots, and gives them the means to do so, with very little risk or chance of failing.
In town, they spend time crafting and not adventuring. Making sure their slots are all filled and not interacting with npcs.
Or they craft on the road, bit by bit, without needing even a proper workplace and magic item crafting set up.
They will never be happy, they must always upgrade further and further.
It isn't fun, not real fun. When upgraded a player will be satisfied for now. Satisfied, in a game with so many possibilities for real fun.
Allowing these item creation feats is a massive internal time sink inside the game and away from other tasks.
It isn't heroic at all.
So I am against it since it takes the game away from adventure and into the obsessive compulsive land of slot filling.
How sad, go earn and discover your great items! Not just make them.
3.5 Loyalist:
It was 3.0 that added magic item creation to the game. This was in response to what I think was people asking for rules to make magic items. How were magic items created? Why can a high level 2nd edition wizard not make them? Why was it always 'old lost knowledge' magic items? Why cant I make scrolls? Etc etc.
- Gauss
By allowing people to craft what they want magically, a lot is actually taken away from the game (and not just time while the party waits around for the crafters, or placers there orders so that they too are nice and safe). The +1-+5 type of items are some of the most boring items in the game, alongside the ability score boosting items, but crafting allows players to play it more safe. Don't have to worry about what is in the monster hoard, I have +2 all round! We need to get more wealth guys so we can all upgrade to +3. The holy order of crafting dullards rides again.
Potions and scrolls I concede I totally allow to be made. It is the magic item slot filling crafting I have a great and mighty beef with. A beef spanning editions and worlds. A beef stretching across threads of the paizo-sphere! Not everyone is the same though. :P
By allowing people to craft what they want magically, a lot is actually taken away from the game (and not just time while the party waits around for the crafters, or placers there orders so that they too are nice and safe). The +1-+5 type of items are some of the most boring items in the game, alongside the ability score boosting items, but crafting allows players to play it more safe. Don't have to worry about what is in the monster hoard, I have +2 all round! We need to get more wealth guys so we can all upgrade to +3. The holy order of crafting dullards rides again.
Potions and scrolls I concede I totally allow to be made. It is the magic item slot filling crafting I have a great and mighty beef with. A beef spanning editions and worlds. A beef stretching across threads of the paizo-sphere! Not everyone is the same though. :P
Depending on the random magic items table of monster loot is a folly that anyone once done regrets horribly. The chances of there being an item that will benefit someone of the party is about 10-15% and that's if your lucky.
Here's an example. A party of 4 (2 hander fighter, ranger focused on range, blaster/utility wizard and utility/healing druid) Their not too worried about their only melee goy not running with a shield because with the buffs and his power any threats are quickly dealt with. When they finally reach the end of the hobgoblins fort and partake of the loot, gold, art, gems, and various other rare goods. But when the magic item that's in the pile gets rolled up, they get a shield, and not just any shield an awesome large steel shield of defense.
Too bad it benefits no one of the party. It's metal so the druid can't use it, the ranger could use it in case of emergencies but it would simply collect dust on him with their party dynamic. The wizard can do dick all with it, and if the fighter uses it he loses out on a lot of the feats and archetype bonuses he has been focusing on.
Crafting can seem like a "play it safe" thing, I see it as a way taking some randomness out of the game and giving some control to the players when they actually go out of the way to do it.
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Remember kids, every time you say "no" to magic item crafting or "no" to "boring +X items", you're bumping the classes that don't depend on magic items (holy coincidence Batman, it's the FULL CASTERS! Not that they aren't the most versatile and powerful classes to begin with, no no.) and taking a dump on the poor old item-dependant martials (we all know, Rogues with their overpowered multiple sneak attacks and Fighters with those insane heavy armor they wear).
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I'd love to get an official ruling on the publishers intent for how this should be interpreted.
I also love the notion that a magic item isnt considered a 'valuable good' considering how most gms who implement the 'low magic item' world setting do it for the purposes of making you truly 'value' your special unique wonderful magic items. Which arent worth bupkiss to the npc townies.
Greetings npc! I have not but a coin with which to sate my hunger, and as much as I am pained to do so I have decided I'm willing to sell my +5 holy avenger. It was used to slay the dragon which was beset upon your village. He is now felled thanks to my grit and this steel never to be your worry again! what say you shopkeep? Fair market value?
Uh... So you're saying it's a 'used +5 holy avenger?'...
There have been posts by devs commenting on this rule. It's entirely based in game balance, not realism, but that's because it's so easy to abuse, or to put another way, can spiral out of control so quickly.
Having said that, it is pretty realistic in the sense that, as generally full-time adventurers (even when not adventuring heroes need to train and whatnot), crafting would be basically a hobby thing. To make a proper profit out of an endeavour, you need to have enough output to overcome all the hidden overheads - for boutique stuff like magical items, you need to cultivate a market, etc etc.
And Bob the merchant probably knows a full-time crafter that churns out all sorts of magical products and is happy to sell them at a wholesale rate, with an ironclad guarantee of quality, workmanship, consistently meeting deadlines and filling orders... Bob would be happy to pay that guy, say, 65% of market price, as he's awesomely reliable and prolific. But some egotistical hobbyist that spends half his time grubbing through monsters' lairs? Bob's gotta make a profit. He doesn't even sell them at 100% market price - he just supplies a guy in Westcrown that pays him 80%...
Et cetera.
Note that the rule says "generally". What this word is included for is to suggest to the GM that if a PC wishes to spend considerable time setting up a business and becoming a consistent (maybe 4 days a week?) crafter, he can do that and get paid 65% market price. Or if he stumbles into a market that's starved of magical stock. Or perhaps the crafter also took leadership, and his followers are his clerks, agents, hawkers and shop assistants.
But to just let magical crafters sell their stuff for massive profit whenever they want... That GM is just asking for trouble. That's why the rule exists. Search these fora, you should be able to find the Paizo lords' posts on this.
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I only use the recommended wealth as a guideline anyway. I'm more in favor of giving players magical items as story-related rewards instead of a set amount of treasure needed to maintain a constant power level. Usually this means giving the players an artifact (as in mysterious, ancient item, not artifacts from Ultimate Equipment) magic item related to their backstory that grows in power as they level, and they can make as much or as little money on thing as they're able. So far I've only ever had one character that did crafting on a regular basis (an Alchemist), and he's never had a chance to devote long stretches of time to amass wealth, so I haven't had problems.
I can see it being a bigger deal in more by-the-book games.
Nicos:
Exactly what 2nd edition rules allowed crafting? There were not any that I remember. It was entirely GM fiat. Of course, that was over 12years ago so I could be misremembering.
- Gauss
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Nicos:
Exactly what 2nd edition rules allowed crafting? There were not any that I remember. It was entirely GM fiat. Of course, that was over 12years ago so I could be misremembering.
- Gauss
Yeah I think that was the point. There weren't "rules" from what I recall, but suggestions that the GM should set a quest so that the would-be crafter could borrow some of the Elf Queen's shadow to make a cloak of elvenkind. Story-based. It was good fun, I remember playing one or two of those quests:)
Your -- (and tend -- intrigues me... What was meant to follow that?
I agree that crafting is a different play style. It is not necessarily a wrong play style imo. Some campaigns I would rather have no major crafting. Others, it is fine.
- Gauss
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I definitely understand the pretense between selling a magic item you dont want and turning it in to something you do want. You're making that item for you so profit isnt a consideration and it solves the problem most gms have of 'why do my characters care so little about these magnificent magic items i keep dropping for them? You cant *make* a character care about something they don't want... And the circular argument of I don't want you to want it, I want you to want to want it is begging for disappointment.
I'm also not a fan of the 'just make a list and i'll make sure the stuff I want you to have is part of the treasure you're getting' because it still leaves what you're getting in the hands of the GM, and i dont approve of a gm thats so much of a control freak that controlling every other thing in the campaign isnt good enough.
I think its funny to argue semantics like 'if I allow this to happen then you're just gonna sit in a hole for weeks on end crafting to the excluson of all else' because all it takes to mess up a crafter is to interrupt him... The GM still has control of if your space is intruded upon.
I also think that allowing the crafting of magic items means 'the character might as well stop adventuring' seems to be pointing out the failings in your own campaign... Unless you think your adventures are going to be so not profitable that the characters would make a better living setting up shop... Give a guy a reason to leave the shop why don'tcha. Adventuring is supposed to be more profitable than staying home.
To argue that characters wont have time for anything else ignores the fact that if you add a +5 difficulty to crafting then the 1000gp of progress you make per day can be done in 4 hours... thats 12 more hours per day to head out and do some hunting, or carouse with the locals... as long as you make it home by sunset you've got 4 hours of craft and 8 hours of sleep and if you're a wizard 1 hour of study and 11 hours do to whatever.... Being a crafter isn't supposed to ruin your life or preclude you from being an adventurer.
The idea that a character should have to role play out the selling of his crafts is the GM deciding to do the thing he doesnt want the players to do. Waste time. It's violating the first rule of role playing "Don't get in the way of the fun"
Presuming a crafter cant sell his stuff for profit and presuming the only way he could sell for a profit is by setting up a magic mart and running that full time is taking a lot of the utility out of a hard earned feat slot that the player wouldnt even have if he werent an adventurer in the first place. A feat that the publisher thought should be had by the players.
But then i'm from the school of gaming where a responsible gamer keeps his own power in check, a responsible gm lets the player know when it's getting out of hand, and knows how to challenge a player no matter what his power level, and any gm that decides not to let the players make the decision on doing what the players want to do and having what they want to have and using the rules of the system to get what they want to get shouldnt be in the chair in the first place. Inevitably players will make the call for you on if they feel like your decisions are worth putting up with. We vote with our butts, and i'm sure a stingy gm will still be able to find some willing players who think thats not messed up. I just don't happen to be one of them.
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There are a lot of good and bad points on this thread. Making crafting anything other than how it is written will plague your game with problems. Making crafting less than how it is written will severly hamper the character who took the feat. He took a feat to have a bit more product and less power. Let him use it and stop taking away from him unless he is being a bad player with it. I hate it when I hear DM's out here telling us how they make players pay full price for their crafted items, or that they give less treasure to players with crafting feats. I personally play a wizard with a few crafting feats in Slumbering Tsar and I am over 50,000 gp over my wealth by level. Am I more powerful than our other party members. NO! Am I ruining the module because I have a few extra wands. No! I am still limited by actions and nothing will ever change that. Be a better DM by learning to run the game the intended way, the fun way. Let the players be powerful and do great things, especially if it was intended to be done that way.
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Its a syndrome I like to call PTB... Power trippin b***h.
You give your gm permission to have unlimited power... He has an unlimited number of characters with an unlimited number of hit points and an unlimited number of (su) abilities that you'll never have... But thats not all. He's not just playing the king and the barkeep. Not just the number of henchmen in the advancing army. The sharpness of the balrog's teeth.
His character is the leaf on the wind, the clouds in the sky. The amount of light coming from the luminescent mold on the walls. The position of ursa minor in the night sky. The possibility that there *is no ursa minor in the night sky*. The temperature of the breeze. The smell of the barmaids bosom and the color of her toenails... The amount of time your beef jerky takes to go bad... He has been given the paintbrush of infinite possibilities...
But somehow thats not good enough. Thats not what he wants to play... He wants to play your character... And decide what you do with your spare time and your money.
You know what I do with GMs like that? I take... the paintbrush... away.
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Final comment, this may not be obvious, but I don't allow crafting to enable players to have more wealth than recommended. So yes, you can craft stuff at half the price you'd buy it for, but no, I won't let them end up with double recommended wealth. As players craft more, bad guys have less treasure to be looted and converted into components.I really hate that kind of reasoning. It's just unfair to players who take crafting feats.
Take two wizards. One wizard takes a few crafting feats, the other instead takes a few feats to make their magic more effective instead (spell perfection, metamagic feats, whatever.) Which one is better off? It's tough to say; the second wizard is better and more flexible with his own magic, but the first wizard has more wands and toys to play with. They're probably pretty balanced.
Unless the DM then goes and deliberately unbalances the first wizard by giving him less gold for no reason. Then the second wizard without crafting feats is clearly better off; he just buys the stuff instead of making it with the extra gold the DM is giving him for no reason, and just ends up being more powerful.
If a player wants to use his feats/skills/traits to get more gold (crafting, professions, the traits that let you start with money), then that's fine. He then has less feats and skills and traits to use during the adventure, but that's balanced with the fact that he probably has slightly better equipment to compensate. If you take that away, then that's just unfairly treating one play-style worse then a different playstyle.
Hey, if you really don't want your players to be crafters, then just don't let them be crafters. Don't let them use their feats for that and then cripple them to a point where it does them no good.
Ding DIng DIng, Yosarian wins "most reasonable and intelligent" poster for this thread. I could go into a long post to support this thought by Yosarian, but really, he has said it all, and was very concise.
CC
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There are a lot of good and bad points on this thread. Making crafting anything other than how it is written will plague your game with problems. Making crafting less than how it is written will severly hamper the character who took the feat. He took a feat to have a bit more product and less power. Let him use it and stop taking away from him unless he is being a bad player with it. I hate it when I hear DM's out here telling us how they make players pay full price for their crafted items, or that they give less treasure to players with crafting feats. I personally play a wizard with a few crafting feats in Slumbering Tsar and I am over 50,000 gp over my wealth by level. Am I more powerful than our other party members. NO! Am I ruining the module because I have a few extra wands. No! I am still limited by actions and nothing will ever change that. Be a better DM by learning to run the game the intended way, the fun way. Let the players be powerful and do great things, especially if it was intended to be done that way.
Another DIng DIng DIng winner.
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In my games I just houserule that all equipment is bought and sold at full price. Equipment that is personally crafted is sold at crafting price. Is it realistic? Nope. But, unlike in 2nd edition and earlier, 3.X/PF uses gold as one metric of PC power levels.
It does not make sense that when you trade one level of power for another you cut the amount of power you have. For that matter, I could just stop calling it GP and start calling it Equipment Points. 1 EQ = 1 GP.
- Gauss
As it is your game, you can do as you like. That is also why you will win any argument when it comes to your game. Your players agreed to it, and so they must abide by this ruling.
However, there are thousands of playtesters that think your insane.
Do you really think you know more than all the playtesters?
I am quite astonished (although, I really shouldnt be) at the amount of GMs that think this is what has to be done to control character power.
What ever happened to good DM's that let the players use their feats as described in the Core rules/PHB/etc...?
I am not attacking you personally Gauss, I am attacking the idea that the feats have to be house ruled at all.
For instance...
If I took 3 crafting feats by the time I was 11th level wizard, which, if I were a human wizard, I would have 10 total feats (40% on crafting including the scribe scroll feat).
You better damn well let me craft something, I have invested almost half my feats into the ability.
But, since I would be playing in your game, I would know better than to take crafting, and go meta magic, now, instead of using a 5d6 shocking grasp wand that I would have created, I now can manipulate any of my 1st-4th lvl spells with metamagics, and if I take the trait that allows me to pick a spell that I can meta at -1 total meta level, I choose shocking grasp, and can now touch your baddies for 10d6 electricity without upping the level of the spell, and if I go up and use a 2nd level slot to cast (+2 meta magic applications of reach spell and intensify spell) I now have a 2nd level version of shocking grasp that has a 45ft ranged touch that deals 10d6 electricity.
I am so much more versatile and able to handle things you throw against me than I would have been had you allowed me to take crafting
You sure stopped me from being more powerful alrighty... (if you didnt catch it, I was being quite sarcastic there).
CC
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Small thing to add here,
I am GM'ing the Legacy of FIre AP, and before the game ever started, the players and I came up with 3 points during the campaign where crafting something other than potions/scrolls would be reasonable (and would have time to do it).
After House of the Beast (AP#19)
During Jackals Price (AP#21)(while in the city of Katapesh)
and At the end of Eye of Eternity (AP#23) (While still in the city of Brass)
These three crafting areas made the most sense, and allows the crafting mage the ability to do her thing.
Plus it gave the PC's the ability to adapt to my tactics 3 times. Not unreasonable at all.
These are the things GMs do to give validation to a feat selection or character concept.
CC
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I do miss the days when crafting a magic item was a monumental achievement, the result of a quest to obtain a phoenix feather or tear of a god. But, the formula works. Everyone wants our resident crafter to make some great armor for them, but the $$$ isn't always there. Or, the crafter doesn't have the right spells. Sometimes a +2 bastard sword is looted, but they'd rather sell it to help craft a +1 weapon the inquisitor is proficient in.
But mostly, it's not the hand-crafted items that throw my game akimbo, it's the abilities of the characters. Up against an iron golem with no adamantite weaponry, it goes down relatively quickly thanks to the archer fighter's "Clustered Shots" and the inquisitor judgment to bypass DR.
As to the original point, I wouldn't step in unless the game itself seems disrupted. I couldn't begin to guess the WBL of my current players and only use it for rolling up new characters. I suppose you could impose a "limit" to the number of items crafted, such as 3rd edition tried (with XP costs) and literature (Bruenor crafts the hammer Aegis-Fang and seems to put part of himself into the weapon, knowing he'll never craft something so wonderful again). In the literature sense, you could house-rule a caster can only make a # of items equal to her [attribute such as CON or INT], that a part of the caster goes into every item and eventually there is nothing else to give.
But again, if the game is running smoothly and the players seem challenged and having fun, all is well.
How much wealth should be crafted? ALL OF IT!
Sometimes i like to craft magic items from buying materials from town and buying masterwork crafting kits and spending an evening in quiet uninterrupted industry.
Sometimes I go out into the wilderness and craft masterwork horsechoppers and dead goblins from existing materials. (existing materials being, you know... live goblins...with masterwork horsechoppers...)
Some of the least qualified craftsmen seem to be pretty efficient at crafting dead goblins from existing materials... And nobody vetos them! Some of them dont even have crafting kits!
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But, since I would be playing in your game, I would know better than to take crafting, and go meta magic, now, instead of using a 5d6 shocking grasp wand that I would have created, I now can manipulate any of my 1st-4th lvl spells with metamagics, and if I take the trait that allows me to pick a spell that I can meta at -1 total meta level, I choose shocking grasp, and can now touch your baddies for 10d6 electricity without upping the level of the spell, and if I go up and use a 2nd level slot to cast (+2 meta magic applications of reach spell and intensify spell) I now have a 2nd level version of shocking grasp that has a 45ft ranged touch that deals 10d6 electricity.With sufficient munchkinism and the fact that pathfinder allows you to ignore prerequisites for a trivial penalty, you could have all of that with item creation feats.
And that, my dear Lazar, is where the GM gets to step in and make a decision that is right and based on the rules, not on his fear of crafting.
I have a gm that wont let ever let in a pair of slippers of spiderclimb. Its true, I won them in a treasure trove of goodies in Second Darkness. How I used them and what they allowed a monk to accomplish was quite fun (to me as a player). But now, playing a wizard, he wont let me craft them for another player. This is what I mean by fear of crafting.
They are just 4500gp slippers for gods sake. Would you rather me make a wand with 50 charges of spider climb? Oh no... spider cimb is just not allowed unilatterally. I mean s~$*! I cant even play a monk again in his campaigns. Its like my GM has a triggered spell event that goes off and causes the panic effect anytime the word spiderclimb is mentioned. It becomes a DC50 check he fails everytime if the word slippers is placed before the word spider. When I try to give him a headband of protection from fear (Arachniphobia), he refuses, and babbles on about broken magic items...
ARg!
By allowing people to craft what they want magically, a lot is actually taken away from the game (and not just time while the party waits around for the crafters, or placers there orders so that they too are nice and safe). The +1-+5 type of items are some of the most boring items in the game, alongside the ability score boosting items, but crafting allows players to play it more safe. Don't have to worry about what is in the monster hoard, I have +2 all round! We need to get more wealth guys so we can all upgrade to +3. The holy order of crafting dullards rides again.
Potions and scrolls I concede I totally allow to be made. It is the magic item slot filling crafting I have a great and mighty beef with. A beef spanning editions and worlds. A beef stretching across threads of the paizo-sphere! Not everyone is the same though. :P
Depending on the random magic items table of monster loot is a folly that anyone once done regrets horribly. The chances of there being an item that will benefit someone of the party is about 10-15% and that's if your lucky.
Here's an example. A party of 4 (2 hander fighter, ranger focused on range, blaster/utility wizard and utility/healing druid) Their not too worried about their only melee goy not running with a shield because with the buffs and his power any threats are quickly dealt with. When they finally reach the end of the hobgoblins fort and partake of the loot, gold, art, gems, and various other rare goods. But when the magic item that's in the pile gets rolled up, they get a shield, and not just any shield an awesome large steel shield of defense.
Too bad it benefits no one of the party. It's metal so the druid can't use it, the ranger could use it in case of emergencies but it would simply collect dust on him with their party dynamic. The wizard can do dick all with it, and if the fighter uses it he loses out on a lot of the feats and archetype bonuses he has been focusing on.
Crafting can seem like a "play it safe" thing, I...
Well there is the random treasure, which may contain items more powerful than you can craft (but which won't lead to wealth being converted to all body slots being filled). There is also the hobgoblin equipment as treasure, which will be very useful for melee classes by default, ranged classes if they had archers and crossbowmen, and spellcaster loot if they had spellcasters. The default loot for "heroic" enemies with character levels can cover the upgrading bases pretty easily. See the equipment for a level 8 fighter.
I don't allow weapon, armour or wondrous item crafting and it works really well. Sometimes their foes don't give them exactly what they could use, but there is nifty stuff there, a chance to use items they have never used before, items they could not craft if they only took some of the item creation feats, or items which are great for npcs (they are close to running a kingmaker like game) or bribes. Mmmm, yes bribes. Using loot less useful to the party, which you didn't have to craft to aid negotiations and friendship.
Friendship! Friendship!
3.5 Loyalist:
It was 3.0 that added magic item creation to the game. This was in response to what I think was people asking for rules to make magic items. How were magic items created? Why can a high level 2nd edition wizard not make them? Why was it always 'old lost knowledge' magic items? Why cant I make scrolls? Etc etc.
- Gauss
In fact i like more the method of crafting in 2.0. there were not "rules" per se, but crafting required a miniquest for it.
Want a cloak of protection against fire? sure, go recolect silk from fire worms.
Cool idea. A legendary journey. Less, I've got the feat and the gold, you must let me craft it, and more this is important and needs a quest.
There are a lot of good and bad points on this thread. Making crafting anything other than how it is written will plague your game with problems. Making crafting less than how it is written will severly hamper the character who took the feat. He took a feat to have a bit more product and less power. Let him use it and stop taking away from him unless he is being a bad player with it. I hate it when I hear DM's out here telling us how they make players pay full price for their crafted items, or that they give less treasure to players with crafting feats. I personally play a wizard with a few crafting feats in Slumbering Tsar and I am over 50,000 gp over my wealth by level. Am I more powerful than our other party members. NO! Am I ruining the module because I have a few extra wands. No! I am still limited by actions and nothing will ever change that. Be a better DM by learning to run the game the intended way, the fun way. Let the players be powerful and do great things, especially if it was intended to be done that way.
Nope. Running it how it is, causes problems.
Yay, I spend a session crafting items so I can be fully upgraded, holding up the players and not doing anything else, yaaaay!>:{
There are better ways than the intended way. Even Gygax (yes I am invoking Gygax) was critical of the direction third ed went with magic item crafting and slot filling.
Added: crafting items is not doing "great things", a few feats make you a lot more powerful for very little feat cost, as you convert wealth into whatever bonuses you like and planned for. Boooo!
In my games I just houserule that all equipment is bought and sold at full price. Equipment that is personally crafted is sold at crafting price. Is it realistic? Nope. But, unlike in 2nd edition and earlier, 3.X/PF uses gold as one metric of PC power levels.
It does not make sense that when you trade one level of power for another you cut the amount of power you have. For that matter, I could just stop calling it GP and start calling it Equipment Points. 1 EQ = 1 GP.
- Gauss
As it is your game, you can do as you like. That is also why you will win any argument when it comes to your game. Your players agreed to it, and so they must abide by this ruling.
However, there are thousands of playtesters that think your insane.
Do you really think you know more than all the playtesters?
I am quite astonished (although, I really shouldnt be) at the amount of GMs that think this is what has to be done to control character power.
What ever happened to good DM's that let the players use their feats as described in the Core rules/PHB/etc...?
I am not attacking you personally Gauss, I am attacking the idea that the feats have to be house ruled at all.
For instance...
If I took 3 crafting feats by the time I was 11th level wizard, which, if I were a human wizard, I would have 10 total feats (40% on crafting including the scribe scroll feat).
You better damn well let me craft something, I have invested almost half my feats into the ability.
But, since I would be playing in your game, I would know better than to take crafting, and go meta magic, now, instead of using a 5d6 shocking grasp wand that I would have created, I now can manipulate any of my 1st-4th lvl spells with metamagics, and if I take the trait that allows me to pick a spell that I can meta at -1 total meta level, I choose shocking grasp, and can now touch your baddies for 10d6 electricity without upping the level of the spell, and if I go up and use a 2nd level slot to cast (+2 meta magic...
First, ALL house rules in my home group are voted on. Second, everyone in my home group takes crafting feats because I do use them as they are supposed to be used. I do not understand where you think I am houseruling against them. In fact, the houserule has nothing to do with crafting itself. It has to do with WBL and economics (which is what this thread is really about).
The houserule I created is very simple:
Normally: you sell stuff at half price. This is a headache for the GM who wants to maintain WBL guidelines (ie: me). Why? Because I have to spend considerable time trying to figure out what treasure the group will sell. Then Im still going to be wrong and I have to give them more or less treasure to accomodate the new balance. Eventually, if I am lucky, I will get it right.
Houserule: They buy at full, sell at full. What does that mean? It means if they find a +2 sword they cannot use I do not have to figure that out in advance. They sell it for 8300gp and not 4150gp. I do not have to add another 4150gp down the road somewhere.
Then, they buy whatever they want and craft normally.
Problem? What if they craft? Then they can make money. Easy, you sell crafted items for half price still (the cost of crafting them). Why? Well, maybe the items are attuned to you and you need to spend money to upgrade it before you sell it. Maybe not. But in either case it is a balance reason.
Like I said: Gold in 3.X/PF is just a metric for equipment. 1GP = 1EQ.
- Gauss
B) Crafting is not done at a discount. You pay full price to craft. The benefit is that you can get exactly what you want (and often taking less time to do so than the person shopping by catalog in point A).
Same here, only I let them craft at 95% market price and, if they are so inclined, they can sell new magic items at 100%. It makes a very good income ( 50-100 gp per day ).
Of course most adventure path campaigns really don't give players enough time to craft too much. But I really dislike having to adjust everything due to the party becoming unbalanced against the statted encounters.
And I am quite fine with the crafting feats essentially becoming customization tools instead of money printing machines. You want that +3 holy adaptive shock composite longbow of endless amunition? Well, good luck finding exactly that on the market. Or you can craft it or have it crafted by your party wizard.
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Well there is the random treasure, which may contain items more powerful than you can craft (but which won't lead to wealth being converted to all body slots being filled). There is also the hobgoblin equipment as treasure, which will be very useful for melee classes by default, ranged classes if they had archers and crossbowmen, and spellcaster loot if they had spellcasters. The default loot for "heroic" enemies with character levels can cover the upgrading bases pretty easily. See the equipment for a level 8 fighter.I don't allow weapon, armour or wondrous item crafting and it works really well. Sometimes their foes don't give them exactly what they could use, but there is nifty stuff there, a chance to use items they have never used before, items they could not craft if they only took some of the item creation feats, or items which are great for npcs (they are close to running a kingmaker like game) or bribes. Mmmm, yes bribes. Using loot less useful to the party, which you didn't have to craft to aid negotiations and friendship.
Friendship! Friendship!
Mundane and minor magic loot from the hobgoblins is stuff that they either already have and won't use (converted to gold) stuff they can't use (converted to gold) or stuff that will be useful in a later and rare situation (most likely sold for gold at a later date) Using a magic item to bribe or negotiate is basically using the item AS gold.
Why do you hate your players by giving them vast amounts of wealth that they can't really use?
By allowing people to craft what they want magically, a lot is actually taken away from the game (and not just time while the party waits around for the crafters, or placers there orders so that they too are nice and safe). The +1-+5 type of items are some of the most boring items in the game, alongside the ability score boosting items, but crafting allows players to play it more safe. Don't have to worry about what is in the monster hoard, I have +2 all round! We need to get more wealth guys so we can all upgrade to +3. The holy order of crafting dullards rides again.
Potions and scrolls I concede I totally allow to be made. It is the magic item slot filling crafting I have a great and mighty beef with. A beef spanning editions and worlds. A beef stretching across threads of the paizo-sphere! Not everyone is the same though. :P
Could you please post something unreasonable about Ameiko? I find myself agreeing with you and it's making me dizzy. Or that could be the headache I've been nursing since the second hour of one of my weekly Pathfinder groups this evening.
In my games I just houserule that all equipment is bought and sold at full price. Equipment that is personally crafted is sold at crafting price. Is it realistic? Nope. But, unlike in 2nd edition and earlier, 3.X/PF uses gold as one metric of PC power levels.
It does not make sense that when you trade one level of power for another you cut the amount of power you have. For that matter, I could just stop calling it GP and start calling it Equipment Points. 1 EQ = 1 GP.
- Gauss
As it is your game, you can do as you like. That is also why you will win any argument when it comes to your game. Your players agreed to it, and so they must abide by this ruling.
However, there are thousands of playtesters that think your insane.
Do you really think you know more than all the playtesters?
I am quite astonished (although, I really shouldnt be) at the amount of GMs that think this is what has to be done to control character power.
What ever happened to good DM's that let the players use their feats as described in the Core rules/PHB/etc...?
I am not attacking you personally Gauss, I am attacking the idea that the feats have to be house ruled at all.
For instance...
If I took 3 crafting feats by the time I was 11th level wizard, which, if I were a human wizard, I would have 10 total feats (40% on crafting including the scribe scroll feat).
You better damn well let me craft something, I have invested almost half my feats into the ability.
But, since I would be playing in your game, I would know better than to take crafting, and go meta magic, now, instead of using a 5d6 shocking grasp wand that I would have created, I now can manipulate any of my 1st-4th lvl spells with metamagics, and if I take the trait that allows me to pick a spell that I can meta at -1 total meta level, I choose shocking grasp, and can now touch your baddies for 10d6 electricity without upping the level of the spell, and if I go up and use a 2nd level slot to cast (+2 meta magic...
CuttinCurt, your post confuses me.
As I understood it, Gauss's houserule gives players more wealth because instead of having to sell everything at half price, he gives them full price, excepting personally crafted magic items.
How is he limiting his players or cutting into their power?
Please explain.
Littlehewy:
Strictly speaking I do not give them 'more' wealth. I use the WBL table to ensure that they are close to where they should be (WBL + about 15% in consumables to represent that Table 12-5 which gives out about 30-40% more than WBL does). My houserule just makes that job easier on the GM by not having to keep giving 'extra' to cover the value of equipment sold for half price.
If I give out 20,000gp worth of treasure I see no reason that it should become 10,000gp of treasure. Then I have to give them another 10,000gp which becomes 5,000gp. Then I have to give them another 5,000gp which becomes another 2,500gp...... All in an effort to give them the 20,000gp I was trying to hand out to begin with. Either I just hand them a lump sum of gold equaling 20,000gp OR I use this houserule. My houserule is less realistic but at least I can give them shinys and not worry about whether or not they will like it and subsequently sell it.
- Gauss