How Much Wealth Should Be Crafted?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Diego Rossi wrote:

The usual, wonderful, caster that now, without magic items, can use his magic for defence, offence and solving problems all at the same time without ever suffering from lack of the right spell. [roll eyes]

A fighter without magical equipment is still capable to dish out a reasonable amount of damage for a long time and is capable to fight both at long range and hand to hand.
A wizard without magical equipment will use half of his spells to get a reasonable AC for a few minutes, use his offensive spells in 2 fights at most and then use his reliable crossbow as his attack option. Terrific.

I too play exclusively at first-level.


vuron wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:


This won't work. You can at most slow time by half. It sounds like the problem is you aren't reading the rules correctly.

You can also give it the erratic time setting which allows for 1 round = 1 day settings.

Just curious, because I honestly don't know what the spell is or does, but wouldn't you need to bring food or starve in like.. 4 rounds? or would your hunger still be based on the plane you're in, in which case wouldn't something happen when you jumped back in and out of the plane?

I dunno. It sounds awesome, and yet it sounds like death everywhere.


KHShadowrunner wrote:
vuron wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:


This won't work. You can at most slow time by half. It sounds like the problem is you aren't reading the rules correctly.

You can also give it the erratic time setting which allows for 1 round = 1 day settings.

Just curious, because I honestly don't know what the spell is or does, but wouldn't you need to bring food or starve in like.. 4 rounds? or would your hunger still be based on the plane you're in, in which case wouldn't something happen when you jumped back in and out of the plane?

I dunno. It sounds awesome, and yet it sounds like death everywhere.

Well time is still normal for you so presumably you'd just cast create food/water periodically or cast Mage's Mansion whenever you needed to rest and eat.

The major limitation is really the relative age issues as you need some effective way of stopping your aging. Undeath obviously works, serial use of clones would also work, etc.

Basically it's like a limited use bolthole for BBEG casters to come back from getting pounded.


Gauss wrote:

Mapleswitch: Is it really that unreasonable that a level 17 spellcaster creates a fast time demiplane?

- Gauss

If a character really wanted to do this....

Time is still normal to you. Creating said magical item still takes as long as it normally would. You still age like you normally do. The difference is that you would have more days to create items during an adventure/during the breaks between adventures.

As for a separate timeless Demiplane to Teleport to and from during fights, this is ridiculously broken. You could take out an entire army in a matter of minutes (material plane time) by casting time stop - delayed empowered fireball x number of times and the final spell of time stop to teleport away. Rinse and Repeat.
-edit- A properly built L17 wizard (non-mystic) will have an initiative modifier of around +35. They always go first.

This second option is broken. I would not allow it in my game.


Oh now that's tricky... I specifically remember it mentioning that the time on an erratic plane never changed once created, I just read it again to be sure and now it says it changes whenever it likes and those on the plane do not perceive the change...

Since usually the GMs like to hit the fast forward button on crafting times as long as nobody else in the party and nothing else in the world intrudes upon it, letting a character craft a 77000gp item in 8 minutes is still broken, so even the non combat use of this time distortion is clearly what would break it.

You can also set your plane as 'bountiful' and have its own day and night time/weather patterns so you can pretty much make a beachfront paradise that provides enough fruit and nuts and vegetables to sustain you without ever being bothered.

I gotta say I have a hard time not enjoying every post I see from Roberta Yang... It combines my level of snerkyness with a classiness I lack.


Mapleswitch wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Mapleswitch: Is it really that unreasonable that a level 17 spellcaster creates a fast time demiplane?

- Gauss

If a character really wanted to do this....

Time is still normal to you. Creating said magical item still takes as long as it normally would. You still age like you normally do. The difference is that you would have more days to create items during an adventure/during the breaks between adventures.

As for a separate timeless Demiplane to Teleport to and from during fights, this is ridiculously broken. You could take out an entire army in a matter of minutes (material plane time) by casting time stop - delayed empowered fireball x number of times and the final spell of time stop to teleport away. Rinse and Repeat.
-edit- A properly built L17 wizard (non-mystic) will have an initiative modifier of around +35. They always go first.

This second option is broken. I would not allow it in my game.

Nothing prevents you from setting up a hideout in the Astral Plane (Timeless). Don't even need a demiplane.

Thing is, time still passes in timeless planes. It's the effects of time that are abated. You don't eat, sleep, age or heal, but you're not frozen in time like a fly in amber.

You second scenario wouldn't work. You'd need a plane with much faster time, not timeless. And you're limited to x2, unless you want to chance erratic time (which isn't fixed).

Timeless wrote:

On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.[/url]


So the spell itself limits the flowing time to half or double, meaning the plane you make for yourself could only possibly cut your crafting time in half... Thats not so bad...

But if you used other means of planar travel to find a plane that had 14400 to 1 flowing time and set up a way to get there easily and consistantly you'd clearly be on your way to breaking the game.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Roberta Yang wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

The usual, wonderful, caster that now, without magic items, can use his magic for defence, offence and solving problems all at the same time without ever suffering from lack of the right spell. [roll eyes]

A fighter without magical equipment is still capable to dish out a reasonable amount of damage for a long time and is capable to fight both at long range and hand to hand.
A wizard without magical equipment will use half of his spells to get a reasonable AC for a few minutes, use his offensive spells in 2 fights at most and then use his reliable crossbow as his attack option. Terrific.

I too play exclusively at first-level.

Yes, Roberta, and Mage armor cover all your defence needs till level 20. ^-^

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
vuron wrote:
KHShadowrunner wrote:
vuron wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:


This won't work. You can at most slow time by half. It sounds like the problem is you aren't reading the rules correctly.

You can also give it the erratic time setting which allows for 1 round = 1 day settings.

Just curious, because I honestly don't know what the spell is or does, but wouldn't you need to bring food or starve in like.. 4 rounds? or would your hunger still be based on the plane you're in, in which case wouldn't something happen when you jumped back in and out of the plane?

I dunno. It sounds awesome, and yet it sounds like death everywhere.

Well time is still normal for you so presumably you'd just cast create food/water periodically or cast Mage's Mansion whenever you needed to rest and eat.

The major limitation is really the relative age issues as you need some effective way of stopping your aging. Undeath obviously works, serial use of clones would also work, etc.

Basically it's like a limited use bolthole for BBEG casters to come back from getting pounded.

Clones have your age. And 1ed astral plane was a timelessness plane.


Diego Rossi wrote:


Clones have your age. And 1ed astral plane was a timelessness plane.

My thoughts concerning the clone would be to generate a clone on the prime and then go into the flowing/erratic time plane and then when you get too old just suicide and then your younger clone would then wake up and would just have to go to your demiplane and retrieve the fruits of your labor.

Presumably though undeath or so way of transitioning to an immortal outsider form would probably be desirable.

Looking back at my 1e Manual of the Planes I guess I was in error as the astral was neither timeless or flowing (as we use them in 3.x/PF) you just had ridiculously differentials between true time and subjective time. I'm trying to remember the first D&D source that had ridiculous time differentials.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Yes, Roberta, and Mage armor cover all your defence needs till level 20. ^-^

If your level 20 wizard is burning through their 50+ spells in two encounters and spending most of the day pinging for 1d8 with a crossbow then you're doing something horrifyingly wrong.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

1ed Astral plane: 24 hours in it were the equivalent of 1 second of ageing, spell duration and so on.
I called it a timelessness plane as it is very similar; in some but not all 1ed supplement you had the need to eat immediately after leaving the astral plane if you sojourned there for some time and your body started to age rapidly till it reached your actual age.

Clone:
"If the original creature has reached the end of its natural life span (that is, it has died of natural causes), any cloning attempt fails."
"treat the clone as if it were the original character raised from the dead, "
When you soul inhabit the clone it get the same age of your original body. I asked that to JJ some time ago and that was his reply.

Reincarnate work better, as you get a young body and the clock for ageing is reset.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Roberta Yang wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Yes, Roberta, and Mage armor cover all your defence needs till level 20. ^-^
If your level 20 wizard is burning through their 50+ spells in two encounters and spending most of the day pinging for 1d8 with a crossbow then you're doing something horrifyingly wrong.

If your 20th level wizard don't meet some greater dispel magic/mage disjunction spell every so often and don't use some of his spell to help his friends that don't have magic weapon [we are speaking of a setting without any magic item, remember] you and your GM are doing something terribly wrong.

You are still speaking of the Schroedinger wizard, that always know what spells he will need and always has the right spell.

How many of those 54- spells (no magic items, remember, so the maximum intelligence is 25, 30 with wishes) are useful in an encounter appropriate for a 20th level character?
How many spell slot are you using for those special contingency spell that now can't be put on a scroll?
How many false life and protection from arrow do you need to survive against a specialized archer? Even without magic items he can still fire 6 arrows each round, with a good to hit and damage output.
Sure your dominate is almost sure to get him, but probably his cleric buddy has already cast magic circle against (your alignment) so it will do nothing.
Monsters? They will still have the same saves than before and you will have way less defences.

A wizard will have a easy time against some specific enemy that will make a fighter sweat, in a setting of that kind (incorporeal creatures, as an example), but the need to stay alive will weight heavily on its resources.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

please...

simulcra this lil baby http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/oozes/tear-of-nuruu-gal low cr, so a few skillpoints in know dungeon ought to be enough

and all your problems are over.
no more aging, free slotless sustenance ring
fire type (7 hells, these days you can declare yourself a dragon with that!)
mind reading, spell resistance, fire magic & telepathy. all continuos.


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Crafting, breaking crafting, timebending, cloning, becoming ageless, simulacra...

Thread... derailing... quickly...


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To refer back to the original post:

From my experience as a DM, there will always be certain players who will try to break the game - to take the rules to the extreme for their desire to be more powerful than the rest of the party. These people typically use 99% of their money to make magical items. Some people will steal from the party to make more magical items for themselves, effectively using greater than 100% of their own wealth.

There are a few ways for DMs to alleviate this problem that the rest of the group faces. One way is to keep the game going - to prevent down time for crafting. Back in 3.x, having no down time literally meant that the feats were a waste of a feat. In Pathfinders, people can work 4 hours a day and get 2 hours worth of credit towards the magical item. (There are a whole host of ways to get more crafting hours in which I'm sure other people can be more specific about). This 4 hours of work for 2 hours of crafting - while adventuring - is one of the ideas that makes Pathfinders better than 3.x. The player should not feel "cheated" for having the ability to make magical items while adventuring.

If there is ample time to craft from L1-13, that is fine. When characters get higher levels (14+), they have the ability to acquire more ways of increasing the amount of time they can spend crafting each day. The demiplane example, refer to above, is one of the stupidest, most broken ways to achieve this end. Clearly at L17, they no longer need any free time to craft :p


Knowing that the demiplane gives them 'halftime' and taking the +5 for accelerated crafting technically they can pull off either 1000gp of crafting in 2 hours (easily accomplished while on the road since their demiplane can be their lab) or if given a full 4 hours on the road would be the equivalent of 8 uninterrupted hours of crafting at the increased rate so 2000gp per day of progress. For the more powerful magic items in the game thats still going to take a while, especially if they cant work on what they want to work on because they're building smaller things for the rest of their party...

Once you remove the possibility of doing better than doubletime i'd say its still not gamebreaking... Then again i'm sure there's still some folks who see this and think NO! No crafting for profit! Fie!

But I wouldn't sit down to that table.


Mapleswitch:

Why is it broken if a person crafts nearly 100% of his items? Even then it only amounts to to around a +1attack/damage and +2AC for CMA&A and +1ability score modifier and +1 resistance bonus for CWI. While that is a bit better than a feat it isnt that much better. The scaling price of equipment helps to minimize the effects of crafting and keeps it reasonable.

- Gauss


tennengar wrote:

Knowing that the demiplane gives them 'halftime' and taking the +5 for accelerated crafting technically they can pull off either 1000gp of crafting in 2 hours (easily accomplished while on the road since their demiplane can be their lab) or if given a full 4 hours on the road would be the equivalent of 8 uninterrupted hours of crafting at the increased rate so 2000gp per day of progress. For the more powerful magic items in the game thats still going to take a while, especially if they cant work on what they want to work on because they're building smaller things for the rest of their party...

Once you remove the possibility of doing better than doubletime i'd say its still not gamebreaking... Then again i'm sure there's still some folks who see this and think NO! No crafting for profit! Fie!

But I wouldn't sit down to that table.

The issue is that in game time doesn't directly correlate to leveling. If you gain a level a day, crafting is pretty bad. If you gain a level a month, its pretty strong.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Gauss wrote:

Mapleswitch:

Why is it broken if a person crafts nearly 100% of his items? Even then it only amounts to to around a +1attack/damage and +2AC for CMA&A and +1ability score modifier and +1 resistance bonus for CWI. While that is a bit better than a feat it isnt that much better. The scaling price of equipment helps to minimize the effects of crafting and keeps it reasonable.

- Gauss

well yes, but there are other ways to gear up aswell. like endless minitrinkets that are modified to be slotless. all of which adds up to a impressive magical armory of immunities and convenient powers at will.


ikki3520, sure. And you dont even need to go slotless since by RAW they can be added to existing items for 1.5x cost (less than the 2x cost). I have yet to see that break a game. After all, the NPCs will probably have them as well. Most of those trinkets do not change the main combat stats although they may change a few elements of how it unfolds. IF the trinkets themselves are not broken (which we all know a few are) reducing the cost by half isnt going to change much. Even if they are broken reducing the cost is still not going to change much. They will still have the trinkets.

- Gauss


johnlocke: How is anyone gaining a level in one day?

It is approximately 20 equal CR encounters per level. The general metric is that a group of 4 can handle around 4 equal CR encounters per day. That equates to 5 days worth of adventuring per level. Now, if I were crafting I would have a Ring of sustenance and a Rope Trick in order to maximize my crafting time.

5days of crafting will get me 10,000gp of accelerated crafting for a cost of 5,000gp. A check of WBL is that between level 6 and 7 you will not have enough time to craft your full 7,500gp worth of treasure. Ok, fine. But then if you have a couple days of downtime afterwards itll make up for it. Or you can spend it on a few items that you are not able to craft.

Of course, after that it goes downhill fast until level 9. At level 9 you MIGHT be able to find a fast time plane to keep up with the rate of treasure but it is doubtful. I usually attribute that to around a level 11 group (to really handle planar problems).

So, there is certainly a gap and if the GM doesn't give the players an extra week or so every couple levels the crafter will fall behind. Then again, some GMs may desire this.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

johnlocke: How is anyone gaining a level in one day?

It is approximately 20 equal CR encounters per level. The general metric is that a group of 4 can handle around 4 equal CR encounters per day. That equates to 5 days worth of adventuring per level. Now, if I were crafting I would have a Ring of sustenance and a Rope Trick in order to maximize my crafting time.

5days of crafting will get me 10,000gp of accelerated crafting for a cost of 5,000gp. A check of WBL is that between level 6 and 7 you will not have enough time to craft your full 7,500gp worth of treasure. Ok, fine. But then if you have a couple days of downtime afterwards itll make up for it. Or you can spend it on a few items that you are not able to craft.

Of course, after that it goes downhill fast until level 9. At level 9 you MIGHT be able to find a fast time plane to keep up with the rate of treasure but it is doubtful. I usually attribute that to around a level 11 group (to really handle planar problems).

So, there is certainly a gap and if the GM doesn't give the players an extra week or so every couple levels the crafter will fall behind. Then again, some GMs may desire this.

- Gauss

My party is able to take on CR+4 encounters without too much trouble(And we only use Paizo material). CR equivalent encounters are pretty easy. IMO once you understand the game, Pathfinder is extremely easy unless you intentionally weaken yourself. Especially with power creep through new books. We level pretty quickly as a result. On the flip side, our characters have a lot of downtime between encounters, so if we used crafting, it would be easy for us to craft everything we could want.


Hmmm interesting. Id be interested to see what kind of group and builds you have and what you are running against. If you feel like indulging that interest send me a PM please.

- Gauss

The Exchange

Something I've noted in running APs is that loot is heavily biased towards the fighter types. The majority of foes use weapons and armour over magic.

This tends to skew things towards the non crafting types quite heavily. As such, crafting does very little to skew the balance of power in our games. We give items to the character who needs it most, and then divide therest out evenly.

As such, I tend to find the casters are undergeared more often than not, and so crafting really could help.

Remember that WBL is meant to provide a guide to how you place treasure,not necessarily what treasure is placed. NPC gear counts in your WPL count, and very little of that is caster oriented.

If you are having trouble with balance in your games, modify what loot is dropped to cater to the other end. This doesnt disempower the player who took crafting ( they still to craft after selling the useless gear at half price ) and also reps the non crafters up to par.

I think the other thing to consider is that WPL is designed fr what characters receive, not what they're actually carrying. Make them divide loot on purchase value and keep track of that for your own guidelines. This can ultimately balance things better a well.

Cheers


Wrath:

Table 12-4 (WBL) is designed around what characters possess not receive. For what they receive you have to go to Table 12-5 (Treasure Values per Encounter). In other threads I have shown that TVpE is 30-40% higher than WBL (the variance is level dependent).

With that said, I never give treasure directly from the AP without considering how much, what kind, etc it is. While APs are great they simply do not know my players. JJ has stated that APs are usually designed with an overabundance (he gives out sometimes as much as double the amounts) because he expects people to not find it all. Well, that doesn't work with my group. They find it all. They leave no stone unturned.

For that matter, I rebuild most encounters. Most of them are not a challenge for my group.

- Gauss


tennengar wrote:

I also love the notion that a magic item isnt considered a 'valuable good' considering how most gms who implement the 'low magic item' world setting do it for the purposes of making you truly 'value' your special unique wonderful magic items. Which arent worth bupkiss to the npc townies.

Greetings npc! I have not but a coin with which to sate my hunger, and as much as I am pained to do so I have decided I'm willing to sell my +5 holy avenger. It was used to slay the dragon which was beset upon your village. He is now felled thanks to my grit and this steel never to be your worry again! what say you shopkeep? Fair market value?

Uh... So you're saying it's a 'used +5 holy avenger?'...

You expect a shopkeeper in some village to have enough money to buy a +5 Holy Avenger? You'd be incredibly lucky if he could afford to pay 10% of the price. And even then he might not buy it, because who is he going to sell it to?

The only people who pay full price for an item are the people who need it. The people who have the money to pay for it, and some purpose that is worth spending that kind of money on an expensive tool like a +5 Holy Avenger.

No merchant is ever going to pay full price, because he's not the one who needs the magic item. The only thing he's going to pay full price for, is protection to protect his wares against thieves. A merchant in powerful magic items has enormous costs, and he needs a hefty margin to pay for all that. If he knows a buyer that needs this specific item and is willing to pay full price for it, he might be willing to pay you up to 80% or something for it, but never full price, because he's still taking a risk and he needs his margin. And if you're selling something that he's pretty sure nobody is going to need (because the item is useless, or because he already has a dozen of them and they're not selling), he won't buy it from you at all, or if he buys it, he'll buy it far below cost.

If as a crafter, you want to sell your creations at full price, you'll have to make what the market demands, and sell straight to the customers who need it. If a noble tells you to make the finest armour you can possibly make, of course you'll charge full price. If an adventurer approaches you for a magic item, you charge full price.

But if you're an adventurer who uses his downtime to create something you don't need and expect to sell it in a market you don't know, don't expect too much.

And if you're an adventurer who just cleaned out the Temple of the Witch Queen with his buddies and are now trying to sell 20 +1 short swords in the nearest village, well, I'm sure the village militia would love to have them, but they're unlikely to have that kind of money. And if they have it, they might need it for other things. Winter is coming, and the harvest wasn't great, so maybe they prefer to spend it on food instead. And those items that only a wizard can use are completely useless to them.

So on the whole, 50% is a pretty sweet deal for an adventurer. It's a quick shortcut, but if you're going to insist on realistic economics, you're going to have a much harder time selling those ridiculously expensive items.

And if you really want to buy for half price and sell for full price, quit your adventuring career and become a merchant.


Gauss wrote:

johnlocke: How is anyone gaining a level in one day?

It is approximately 20 equal CR encounters per level. The general metric is that a group of 4 can handle around 4 equal CR encounters per day. That equates to 5 days worth of adventuring per level. Now, if I were crafting I would have a Ring of sustenance and a Rope Trick in order to maximize my crafting time.

5days of crafting will get me 10,000gp of accelerated crafting for a cost of 5,000gp. A check of WBL is that between level 6 and 7 you will not have enough time to craft your full 7,500gp worth of treasure. Ok, fine. But then if you have a couple days of downtime afterwards itll make up for it. Or you can spend it on a few items that you are not able to craft.

Of course, after that it goes downhill fast until level 9. At level 9 you MIGHT be able to find a fast time plane to keep up with the rate of treasure but it is doubtful. I usually attribute that to around a level 11 group (to really handle planar problems).

So, there is certainly a gap and if the GM doesn't give the players an extra week or so every couple levels the crafter will fall behind. Then again, some GMs may desire this.

- Gauss

Gauss

There are only two broken magical items in Pathfinders (magical items with positive cash flows when you use them). The more broken of the two items can make 1.125 million gold (after the 50% sale price... if they only sell for 10%, that is still over 200kg) in the same time it took you to craft 10kg worth of items.

A DM needs to watch what crafty players make - else they might pull wool over your eyes.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Late to this but some general thoughts:

My interpretation of WBL is it is a suggestion of how much the PCs' gear is worth, NOT how much it purportedly "cost" for them to make, so item crafting feats do not come into it.

So in my games, when I take into consideration how valuable the PCs' gear is to compare to WBL, I take the market value, regardless of how they came by the equipment. If they seem below WBL, I will try to provide opportunities for creation or finding treasure; if they seem above WBL, the party may find a little less treasure for awhile (or find more items like consumables). I'll communicate clearly what's going on if there's any concern.

Now, if a PC wants to make an item, has the resources (time and money and materials), sure. Yes, it will cost him less at the expense of time (which can be a major factor -- if the damsel's ransom is due tomorrow and you spend 3 weeks making a magic sword, then the damsel will be 3 weeks' dead). I'm okay with that. If it bumps him a little higher than what WBL he should have, whatever. I'll keep an eye on it, and besides, WBL is just a suggestion anyway.

I have not had the experience of players crafting items to resell and try to earn a profit off it. They always craft stuff they feel they need, based on the experiences they've had ("I've failed Will saves a lot lately so I'm going to make something that boosts my saves.") Usually the only gear they sell is found treasure they have chosen not to use, if they can find someone who can afford it. (Magic Mart does not exist. Something having a "market value" and finding the actual "market" in which it is sellable or purchasable are two very different things.)

If I had a player trying to use or make a magic item to be strictly a cash machine, they would get a stern talking to about what is and is not reasonable, and a firm reminder that the GM gets final say on what are largely quite nebulous item creation rules to begin with.


Mapleswitch: Which items are you referencing?

- Gauss


DeathQuaker wrote:
My interpretation of WBL is it is a suggestion of how much the PCs' gear is worth, NOT how much it purportedly "cost" for them to make, so item crafting feats do not come into it.

This has always been my reading, and apparently is Paizo's as well EXCEPT they have stated that people who Crafted their OWN items can count the COST for their own WBL - but if they give/sell it to their friends, full price applies. WBL is definitely about wealth you have, not wealth you received at some point. Thus, using consumables shouldsn't reduce your future effective WBL... Only the fact that you routinely have a good number of consumables ON HAND is eating into your WBL. I guess I can understand why people might think otherwise, on a 'moralist' basis of 'it was your opportunity' type of thinking, but that just isn't how WBL is meant to work. If the PCs defeat an evil logging organization and suddenly have thousands of piles of teak logs laying around, but decide to ditch them, that doesn't cover their WBL until 10th level.


I tend to not give 2 shakes about WBL.

I don't remember so much analytics going into the games I enjoyed in my younger days.

I tend to craft for profit because I have to pay to scribe the scrolls I want to learn and carry the gear i want to carry. Simple as that. Crafting for 4 hours a day lets me make enough money to pay a local mage to study a spell or two that makes me a useful and interesting mage instead of a magic missile tossin' tosser.

It allows me to pick what tools i bring to the table instead of just 'praying the gm knows what I want' or giving him a list and hoping he'll 'sprinkle them in here and there...' which are both more meta than putting it into the hands of the players.

In the lower levels it makes me more than just a magic missile machine with a dozen hit points, and in the higher levels it represents that being able to bend the universe to my will actually has value above just microwaving baddies.

I've always believed that the gm has the ability (the 'job') of making things challenging and interesting for the players no matter what their power level, and the players should be able to be who they want to be and have what they want to have. If the GM isnt having fun letting the players play who they want to play then thats something to examine closely.

Magic items arent artefacts... They're not rare. They're in the game. They're expected to be had to meet your CR. You have a mechanic in place to make what you want. The difficulty in making a profit from that is indeed 'challenging' but perhaps not the most 'exciting' challenge your gm should be able to come up with... I suggest they spend their time on the latter more than the former. Or maybe they cannae...


MCV says "You expect a shopkeeper in some village to have enough money to buy a +5 Holy Avenger?

- No, as addressed further down the conversation which you may have skipped over I expect only to be able to sell magic items in towns where the item purchase limit in the town is commesurate to the value of the item i'm trying to sell...

MCV: The only people who pay full price for an item are the people who need it.

- Agreed. which is why in a town where there's a 75% chance of finding a magic item that you're looking for there is in our campaigns also the reasonable expectation that theres a 75% chance of finding a buyer for anything of equivalent value... Of course a tiny hamlet cant afford even something as simple as a haversack... but a bustling city with a port? I bet there are a few men down at the dock who'd like to increase their profit margin by issuing their dockworkers a strength belt or some such...

MCV: No merchant is ever going to pay full price, because he's not the one who needs the magic item.

-Again agreed. If you're selling to a merchant then absolutely splitting the profits is far more appropriate than simply letting an item you crafted go for the price you paid to make it.. Which was also adressed further up the thread you may have skipped over... And with intelligence scores like mages have, they're not that kinda fool. Maybe if their wisdom score were bad...

MCV: on the whole, 50% is a pretty sweet deal for an adventurer. It's a quick shortcut, but if you're going to insist on realistic economics, you're going to have a much harder time selling those ridiculously expensive items.

- unless 50% is what you paid to make it. thats not a sweet deal at all. How about you go buy me a frozen turkey, spend 4 hours of your life cooking it and i'll buy it off you for the price you paid for it frozen... One hell of a deal I'm offerin ya bud... That's not the realistic economy of which you speak.

MCV: And if you really want to buy for half price and sell for full price, quit your adventuring career and become a merchant.

- I dont want to buy for half price and sell for full. I want to provide a service... which is turning mundane into miracle... and unlike a church... expect that to have value. Which is what realistic economics are all about. Nobody works for free. And theres no reason my character should have to become a merchant to expect a profit. You're gonna let me have that turkey at cost since you're not a turkey merchant right?


tennegar, the older versions of D&D (2nd and before) had only (very) loose connections between what level the PCs were and what equipment was handed out. That connection was basically the random treasure tables. If a PC could not take down the monster they could not get the treasure that monster had. Thus there was a sort of level connection. But GMs could give out too much or too little treasure, the random rolls could be stingy. I remember trying to decide if I wanted to override the rolls because I knew my players were short on treasure (rolls had been bad). It was very frustrating for me.

Then 3rd edition came along and codified how much treasure a PC should have. For good or ill that is the system we have today. Was it a good step forward? Not really, but 3rd edition could not codify everything else and then leave equipment up to random chance or GM fiat without setting a baseline first. Personally, I would have liked it to be less equipment dependent. But this is the game they designed.

- Gauss


2nd edition you were rolling on random treasure tables that had no 'power structure' so you were just as likely to get a staff of the magi as you were to get a staff that grows a fruit once per day. There was no connection to your level and your prize per se...

Depending on your GM there wasnt even a guarantee that the magic item in the enemy's treasure was even something the enemy would bother to use against you... Many times we'd find a wand and think... why wasn't he shooting us with this?

You got what you got, and there was no way to get what you wanted unless you got lucky.

Which a lot of people didnt like...

So now theres a way to get what you like. And it's meticulously balanced and provides many hurdles to jump through and many hard controls that keep the power in the GM's hands... But it doesnt ever say a gm should force you to craft for free... And yet it seems a very popular thing for gms to do...


It was also easier to get what you wanted by luck of the dice because you used to play for hours each day and several days a week.

Most of the tables i know of only get together once a week at best so waiting around for a lucky roll is now a full 7 times less likely than it was when we were kids.


We're in an even worse boat than that on my end. We get together 6 hours per fortnight...


tennengar wrote:

I tend to not give 2 shakes about WBL.

I tend to craft for profit because I have to pay to scribe the scrolls I want to learn and carry the gear i want to carry. Simple as that. Crafting for 4 hours a day lets me make enough money to pay a local mage to study a spell or two that makes me a useful and interesting mage instead of a magic missile tossin' tosser.

The value of your spellbook and scrolls you have on hand counts towards WBL (albeit self-crafted items are at COST according to Paizo FAQ, not full purchase price), and those reflect your character power similarly as a fighter having different weapons. Whatever you paid some wizard for the privilege of copying his spells DOESN'T count towards WBL, because it isn't your current wealth, any more than the ticket price of a sailing voyage that brought you to your current location counts as WBL.


tennegar: while the tables were completely random the monsters in 2nd edition told you how much of what tables to roll on. That is the link I am talking about. Of course, my memory could be faulty, it has been over a decade since I sold my 2nd edition books in favor of 3rd edition.

- Gauss


I still have all of my 2nd ed books ^_^

They'll be on my treasure table when I'm gone.


Unfortunately tennegar, I am of limited means so I have made some rather...unfortunate decisions over the years. Sold 2nd edition to get 3rd. Sold 3rd to get 3.5 etc. Hell, I once sold a 3000pt Warhammer army I had slowly assembled.

- Gauss


The newest group of gamers I joined I said I'd be happy to run a game but it would have to be in a system i was familiar with (had no pathfinder or 3.0/3.5 experience before this group) so I was running a 2ed for a group that had spent a lot of time in d20/3.5....

It was quite a joy watching their minds bend back around thaco and the notion that dex bonuses didnt apply to initiative rolls. I call pathfinder home now but I'll keep every book i've ever bought. I'm a sappy nostalgia guy and they remind me of the flavor of fantasy that made me want to be a gamer in the first place. I'm not sure any of this new stuff would rope me in if i didn't have that history.

To this day i've never had anyone survive castle amber... bought return to castle amber and never played it... Might make an interesting rewrite...


It was actually one of the biggest learning curves i ever had going from 2e to 3.5 because in 2e DM guide they had a section on 'creating your own class' and they specifically said look. you shouldn't even think about making something like 'vampire hunter'... its not a separate class. you're a fighter. or a ranger, or a mage... hunting vampires isnt what you are... its what you do.

Then you get to 3.5 and it's basically everything you can possibly think to do is now a prestige class! Any race you like... Like palladium! you got your RCC and your OCC... and something pathfinder never had! Templates! and they stack!

Vampiric Dragonborn half Tiefling half oliad Magekiller! whatever!

I tell you i hate warforged way more than I ever hated dragonlance tieflings.

Warforged was the kind of jumping the shark that I always felt like spelljammer was in 2e. Giant space hamsters was when I stopped playing 2e...

At least to an extent pathfinder dialed back all that craziness a notch


Ahhh yes, I have fond memories of my Half-Storm Giant who killed a dragon and suicided in the process.

- Gauss


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To get back on topic I suppose really that after playing rifts for years and our own version of tomb of horrors (called montezumas revenge which was basically a dungeon built exclusively from wall to wall grimtooth's traps) having a gm tell me that making 500gp a day from crafting will break his world makes me laugh.... It takes so little to ruin a world nowadays...

Ecosystem... so fragile...

Fun... Diminishing...

Must make... petty restrictions...

I need a GM thats built of sterner stuff.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gauss wrote:

Unfortunately tennegar, I am of limited means so I have made some rather...unfortunate decisions over the years. Sold 2nd edition to get 3rd. Sold 3rd to get 3.5 etc. Hell, I once sold a 3000pt Warhammer army I had slowly assembled.

- Gauss

I feel your pain. I am incapable to part with my hold gaming paraphernalia, even if I don't use it any more. Luckily I have enough money that I can refrain from selling it.

The only exceptions where my Magic card that I gifted away to break an habit that was costly (I am extremely bad at trading cards).
I still have a 2nd ed. player handbook signed by Gary Gygax at a convention and sometime I still want to kick myself for not binging my 1ed PHB for him to sign instead of the 2ed book I was using for the AD&D tourney.

Jhidurievdrioshka wrote:


It was also easier to get what you wanted by luck of the dice because you used to play for hours each day and several days a week.

1st/2nd edition play was faster and levelling was slower, so you had more adventures in the same time and more time for character growth.

3.x style of gaming allow you to reach the high levels with relative ease, but to gain taht you lose in other aspect oft eh game.

- * -

The whole WBL thing:
I feel that sometime it can be a a straitjacket if taken as a hard rule.

There are several items that I love to have but that will have little impact on my capability to overcome obstacles.
My character love to have a well furnished house. I should count that in my WBL?
One of the items I love to have is a Travel cloak, a item that is useful but after the first few levels can be substituted by spell use or other more powerful gear that incidentally do the game affecting part of what the cloak do [protecting you from cold weather].
But the idea of my character being protected from rain and being comfortable is important to me. That item should be as relevant as a cloak +1 that will modify all my saving throw?
So I feel that WBL should be used as a guideline in gauging how powerful the characters are, but that keeping the characters within the boundaries of their WBL isn't so important.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mcv wrote:
So on the whole, 50% is a pretty sweet deal for an adventurer. It's a quick shortcut, but if you're going to insist on realistic economics, you're going to have a much harder time selling those ridiculously expensive items.

I've always found it amusing to watch people on "Pawn Stars". They bring in an item,+ and watch it appraised for a given price and then are shocked when Rick offers them half that amount (or less depending). Apparently the idea that shop owner is expected to make a profit down the line is totally lost on them.


Arguing for realism works in both directions of course...

And i could understand selling something you found in a crypt for half market price... Clearly even if its magical its probably not in the best condition... Most of what sells at 'market' is either fresh produce or 'used' equipment...

On the other hand what i crafted is brand new. The idea that it's even been used at all is off the table... Perhaps the amount of points I rolled over its cr x10% is the amount of profit over crafting cost that I could expect for the 'quality of workmanship of a brand new item'... Item costs 500 to build, cr 6... I take 10... I expect 40% more than the 500 i spent to make it. If I roll 30... clearly what i made is of the finest quality... clearly i could not expect less than 1700 for it... Unless i took it to a pawn shop... then i'm probably going to expect half... so 850...

Rick on pawn stars never offers half... Rick offers like 20%... Rick is great at his job... I would never sell anything I own to Rick.


tennengar wrote:

MCV: The only people who pay full price for an item are the people who need it.

- Agreed. which is why in a town where there's a 75% chance of finding a magic item that you're looking for there is in our campaigns also the reasonable expectation that theres a 75% chance of finding a buyer for anything of equivalent value... Of course a tiny hamlet cant afford even something as simple as a haversack... but a bustling city with a port? I bet there are a few men down at the dock who'd like to increase their profit margin by issuing their dockworkers a strength belt or some such...

There being an item for sale does not mean the buyer is just as easy to find. The item being for sale means that the merchant expects that he'll be able to sell that item, but he can be wrong, and the buyer might not be in the city right now. He could be counting on traveling adventurers just like the PCs, for example. Maybe, if the PCs are high level and reasonably well known, he could be counting on the PCs themselves.

Whatever the case, buyers tend to go to a shop when they need something. They don't go looking for an adventurer staying in an inn for a few days. In order to expect to sell for full price, you either need to do a lot of work looking for potential buyers among the sizable city population, and then hope they want to buy from you instead of a more reputable source that they are more familiar with, or you have to become the reputable source of magic items, give up your adventuring career, and start your own shop.

Selling something takes time, especially when it's a rare, expensive specialty item.

tennengar wrote:

MCV: No merchant is ever going to pay full price, because he's not the one who needs the magic item.

-Again agreed. If you're selling to a merchant then absolutely splitting the profits is far more appropriate than simply letting an item you crafted go for the price you paid to make it.. Which was also adressed further up the thread you may have skipped over... And with intelligence scores like mages have, they're not that kinda fool. Maybe if their wisdom score were bad...

And that's why you don't craft stuff unless you know there's a demand for it. You make stuff on commission, or you establish yourself as an artisan in the city, you invest time in investigating the market for crafted goods, and you make sure that potential buyers know where to find you when they need something.

But that generally doesn't go well with an adventuring career. Crafting adventurers mostly care about their own needs.

tennengar wrote:

MCV: on the whole, 50% is a pretty sweet deal for an adventurer. It's a quick shortcut, but if you're going to insist on realistic economics, you're going to have a much harder time selling those ridiculously expensive items.

- unless 50% is what you paid to make it. thats not a sweet deal at all. How about you go buy me a frozen turkey, spend 4 hours of your life cooking it and i'll buy it off you for the price you paid for it frozen... One hell of a deal I'm offerin ya bud... That's not the realistic economy of which you speak.

If you ask me to cook you that turkey, then you're paying full price. If I randomly cook a turkey that I don't need, then I'm a fool. The same thing goes for wizards.

tennengar wrote:
MCV: And if you really want to buy for half price and sell for full price, quit...

Why do I get an incomplete quote here? Is there a way to get a full quote from this forum?

Edit: here's the full quote pasted in:

tennengar wrote:

MCV: And if you really want to buy for half price and sell for full price, quit your adventuring career and become a merchant.

- I dont want to buy for half price and sell for full. I want to provide a service... which is turning mundane into miracle... and unlike a church... expect that to have value. Which is what realistic economics are all about. Nobody works for free. And theres no reason my character should have to become a merchant to expect a profit. You're gonna let me have that turkey at cost since you're not a turkey merchant right?

If you come to me expecting me to cook for you, then apparently I'm running a restaurant. The big question is who is providing the service for whom here. If you need a buyer in order to get rid of an item, then any easily found buyer is providing a service to you: you get your quick money, they take the risk and invest the time into finding someone who actually needs that item. If you want to take that risk and invest that time yourself, then you're giving up your adventuring career to become a merchant, at least temporarily.

You can't expect a profitable and easily exploitable market to be ready waiting for you at your convenience when you come out of that dungeon. If you want to exploit a market, you've got to put in the time and money and take risk just like everybody else. If you want to provide a service of creating magical items, then you have to make sure customers can find you, you have to establish yourself as an artisan, and be ready to serve the whims of the market.

That the game doesn't represent this very well is not very surprising, considering it's a game about adventurers rather than merchants and artisans. But if there's any demand for merchant/artisan campaigns, I'm sure someone can write an economic source book.

As for WBL, I'd say it's only intended as a guideline, and not a hard rule. It gives some idea on the order of magnitudes as which PC's wealth grows. Sticking to strictly to it tends to make players' decisions meaningless, and nobody wants that, surely?


Pathfinder isn't intended as an economics simulator. The rules for buying and selling are kept simple because they didn't intend for players to spend time haggling and shopkeeping. Its in the same line of thought as why you don't normally rob the shopkeeper.

Now, you certainly can do those things, but its heavy into the area of house rules and gm fiat.

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