How Much Wealth Should Be Crafted?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
tennengar wrote:
Of course a tiny hamlet cant afford even something as simple as a haversack... but a bustling city with a port? I bet there are a few men down at the dock who'd like to increase their profit margin by issuing their dockworkers a strength belt or some such...

Let's see, buy a multi-thousand gp item to put on one of my common laborers who'll only get it taken from him by the next rogue who comes down the alley, or use a fraction of that money to simply hire the services of a whole crew of workers.... Which do you think increases the profit margin more? Most things that benefit a hero in combat have very little practical application. Remember that even in the Bronze Age, docks used things like block and tackle to move loads to much to handle by brute humans strength.


LazarX wrote:
tennengar wrote:
Of course a tiny hamlet cant afford even something as simple as a haversack... but a bustling city with a port? I bet there are a few men down at the dock who'd like to increase their profit margin by issuing their dockworkers a strength belt or some such...
Let's see, buy a multi-thousand gp item to put on one of my common laborers who'll only get it taken from him by the next rogue who comes down the alley, or use a fraction of that money to simply hire the services of a whole crew of workers.... Which do you think increases the profit margin more? Most things that benefit a hero in combat have very little practical application.

Exactly. The discrepancy between the value of magic items and normal wages is far too big for there to be a large and dependable market for magic items. For magic to be able to compete with common labour, it has to be a lot cheaper.

Personally I'd like to say that magic items are so expensive because they are so rare, but when magic item creation is reliable and accessible, that doesn't really work anymore. But if item crafting is common and there is a reliable market, then selling prices should plummet to just above cost. If they don't, there clearly have to be a lot of hidden costs involved. The risk of not selling an item is a pretty big one here, but with magic items being so expensive, they're also prime targets for thieves. Anyone dealing in expensive magic items would need really good magical protection and the best guards the city has to offer. Any PC suspected of owning magic items would attract the attention of every thief in the city.

From a world-building point of view, I wouldn't mind getting rid of crafting. It makes magic too mundane. Instead, make the creation of any item a quest in itself.

Silver Crusade

In my games, crafting does not consist of popping open the CRB or the magic item guide and looking at each item to decide which one you want to make. No where does utility say you are automatically gifted with the blueprints of every item that exists. You are going to have to giveme an in game reason as to how you know about that certain item, special items even more.

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

At level 3 you do not need the Ring of Sustenance+Rope Trick method. You can barely afford the Ring of Sustenance at that point anyhow. The rule, Crafting while adventuring, produces 2hours of effective crafting per day. At that point you are not getting a whole lot of cash to craft with.

By level 5 you can afford a Lesser Rod of Extend Spell, a must have item anyhow. That will double your Rope Trick duration. That will suffice until the Rope trick duration is long enough that you no longer need the Rod. So at level 5 you have spent 3,000 (or two rope tricks per day) for a Lesser Rod of Extend and 2,500gp for a Ring of Sustenance. A total of 5,500gp out of 10,500gp (WBL). But you only do this if you do not have enough time for crafting.

Note: You can get away without the Rod of Extend by casting 2 Rope Tricks, the problem with that is that it burns an extra spell and you have to wake people up.

Eventually this technique gets replaced with the Fast time Plane technique.

- Gauss

Explain to me in game how you are taking all if your materials, work bench etc inside a rope trick?

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

The Sleeping Dragon:

The Ring of Sustenance drops the amount of sleep required down to 2hours and allows arcane spellcaster to rememorize after only 2hours of sleep (still with the limit of 1/day).

So: at 5th level you cast Rope Trick (extended to 10hrs) and start crafting 2 hours before everyone's bedtime. You craft through the night (8hours) and finally get 2hours sleep.

Not tired, no fatigue, get all of your spells back the next day (except those cast <8hours before you rememorize).

- Gauss

Incorrect.

Wizards do not regain their spells after two hours. Any spells that are cast are still susceptibe to their normal daily allotment. In other words you do not regain your spells any faster, this has already been proven.

Silver Crusade

Covent wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
While I understand your reasoning. This is going to hurt martial classes more than casters(whcih is ironic, as the casters are the ones who can craft)

I do not understand why it hurts the martials more, could you please explain.

My only idea would be perhaps because it is more difficult for martials to craft due to the restrictions on master craftsman?

I am not trying to argue or be difficult I am honestly curious.

I would say these are people who play in games that don't use teamwork. Martials don't need gear because they could get buffs from spellcasters if it's needed.

Silver Crusade

Anguish wrote:
Yosarian wrote:

I really hate that kind of reasoning. It's just unfair to players who take crafting feats.

Take two wizards. One wizard takes a few crafting feats, the other instead takes a few feats to make their magic more effective instead (spell perfection, metamagic feats, whatever.) Which one is better off? It's tough to say; the second wizard is better and more flexible with his own magic, but the first wizard has more wands and toys to play with. They're probably pretty balanced.

Unless the DM then goes and deliberately unbalances the first wizard by giving him less gold for no reason. Then the second wizard without crafting feats is clearly better off; he just buys the stuff instead of making it with the extra gold the DM is giving him for no reason, and just ends up being more powerful.

If a player wants to use his feats/skills/traits to get more gold (crafting, professions, the traits that let you start with money), then that's fine. He then has less feats and skills and traits to use during the adventure, but that's balanced with the fact that he probably has slightly better equipment to compensate. If you take that away, then that's just unfairly treating one play-style worse then a different playstyle.

Hey, if you really don't want your players to be crafters, then just don't let them be crafters. Don't let them use their feats for that and then cripple them to a point where it does them no good.

Incorrect.

Consumables such as potions are a part of the WBL, not sure who told you they weren't.

Sorry this is so late... the dot on this thread vanished for a while.

Anyway, I disagree for a couple reasons. One: consumed consumables aren't part of WBL. You don't have them, so they don't count. I expect WBL to mean that when you hit 10th level, you have - at that moment - the wealth that a 10th level PC should have. I don't care if you've crafted a bunch of wands and used them. Good for you, good job. If you made 10kgp worth of wands and blew them out, I'll make sure you still hit WBL despite that expense.

My goal is to ensure that no player (or...


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shallowsoul wrote:
In my games, crafting does not consist of popping open the CRB or the magic item guide and looking at each item to decide which one you want to make. No where does utility say you are automatically gifted with the blueprints of every item that exists. You are going to have to giveme an in game reason as to how you know about that certain item, special items even more.

Really easy to get around. "My father was a master magic swordsmith and I watched him craft."


Shallowsoul:

I never stated wizards can rememorize multiple times in one day. They are still limited to daily allotment. However, the Ring of Sustenance does state that spellcasters only need 2 hours of sleep (instead of 8) to get their spells back. Those remaining 6 hours can be put to more productive use such as crafting.

CRB p483 Ring of Sustenance wrote:
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.

Also, show me ANYWHERE that states you need a workbench and lab.

Here is what the CRB states you need:

CRB p549 center left section of page wrote:
The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items.

So, unless wizards cannot memorize spells while adventuring you can craft while adventuring. The question then becomes how much time you get. That is answered in the following section:

CRB p549 top right section of page wrote:
This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).

"such as a laboratory or shrine". It does not state you are required to have a laboratory. In fact, it states that a shrine could work. No laboratory equipment there. Thus: any quiet place that is distraction free will do. If the GM really wants to nitpick this he can state that a Rope Trick with a bunch of snoring adventurers is not a distraction free environment. At that point the crafter should craft in a second Rope Trick. *shrugs*

- Gauss


Why would you need a lab to craft magic items?

In almost all cases you are working with a previously crafted masterwork item as the base for further enchantment.

I don't need to have craft:leatherwork in order to make magical boots after all. I just pick up mastercrafted boots from the local cobbler and start casting spells and/or praying.

Now some really big items like an apparatus of kwalish would be hard to lift up and down from the Rope Trick so you'd probably want to wait until you had Mage's Mansion to start working on stuff like that or a construct.

Ring of Sustenance doesn't allow you to violate the maximum number of spells prepared in 24 hours but definitely allows you to operate on a very limited amount of rest which is really useful if you are a magic crafter and you have stuff you want to do.

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

Shallowsoul:

I never stated wizards can rememorize multiple times in one day. They are still limited to daily allotment. However, the Ring of Sustenance does state that spellcasters only need 2 hours of sleep (instead of 8) to get their spells back. Those remaining 6 hours can be put to more productive use such as crafting.

CRB p483 Ring of Sustenance wrote:
This ring continually provides its wearer with life-sustaining nourishment. The ring also refreshes the body and mind, so that its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep. This allows a spellcaster that requires rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but this does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day. The ring must be worn for a full week before it begins to work. If it is removed, the owner must wear it for another week to reattune it to himself.

Also, show me ANYWHERE that states you need a workbench and lab.

Here is what the CRB states you need:

CRB p549 center left section of page wrote:
The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items.

So, unless wizards cannot memorize spells while adventuring you can craft while adventuring. The question then becomes how much time you get. That is answered in the following section:

CRB p549 top right section of page wrote:
This work is generally done in a controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum, such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the amount of progress (just as with the adventuring caster).
"such as a laboratory or shrine". It does not state you are required to have a laboratory. In fact, it states that a shrine could work. No laboratory equipment there. Thus: any quiet place that is distraction free will do. If the GM really wants to nitpick this he can state that a Rope Trick...

Lets say you cast Magic Missile, you can't then regain that magic missile back two hours later. Basically some of the time has been taken away, you don't get any further advantages. Basically all you do is replace the 8 in the description for regaining spells with a 2, that's all.

Now since the full rules of creation are left open, your DM may say you need a work bench or lab depending on what you are working on. If the item itself is already completed and it just needs the spells put in then fair enough but if you have to actually craft the item then you may need tools. It doesn't say you need a forge to craft arms and armor but you still need one.


Shallowsoul:

There are two rules regarding sleep and recovery of spells that we seem to be tripping over.
1) You require 8 hours of sleep in order to rememorize Wizard spells. The Ring drops this to 2 hours.
2) You are not allowed to rememorize any spell cast within the last 8 hours. The ring does nothing to change this. I did not state it did. I did not imply it did. Crafting has no bearing on this.

The full rules of creation are not left open. They are clearly stated that any place that is good for memorization is good for crafting. Unless your GM wants to start requiring you to head home each day to memorize, you can craft wherever he allows you to memorize.

Additionally, we are not talking about the craft skill here. We are discussing magic item creation which uses an entirely different set of rules.

- Gauss

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

Shallowsoul:

There are two rules regarding sleep and recovery of spells that we seem to be tripping over.
1) You require 8 hours of sleep in order to rememorize Wizard spells. The Ring drops this to 2 hours.
2) You are not allowed to rememorize any spell cast within the last 8 hours. The ring does nothing to change this. I did not state it did. I did not imply it did. Crafting has no bearing on this.

The full rules of creation are not left open. They are clearly stated that any place that is good for memorization is good for crafting. Unless your GM wants to start requiring you to head home each day to memorize, you can craft wherever he allows you to memorize.

Additionally, we are not talking about the craft skill here. We are discussing magic item creation which uses an entirely different set of rules.

- Gauss

Like I said, depends on if the item itself is already made which would require buying it or having to make it. That longsword still has to exist before you can enchant it.

I'm not sure why then you feel the need to suggest a ring of sust. Okay so it decreases the window of opportunity to be caught in your sleep, big deal.


Ring of Sustenance allows you to operate for 22 hrs a day rather than 16 hrs a day. That can be a significant boon especially in games where you are constantly on the run.

The main point is that while compressed timelines can negatively impact your ability to craft big ticket items you should be able to craft minor items even within a really compressed AP timeline.

With a more sandbox style design like Kingmaker you can pretty much craft as needed whenever needed.


Vuron is correct, it adds an extra 6 hours per day for you to do something. While this will not increase the amount of time per day that you have to craft magic items beyond the 8 hours per day limit it will make it easier to reach that 8hour mark.

With Ring of Sustenance:
You and your buddies are adventuring for 15 or so hours a day (a very long day at that). You require 2hours of sleep which brings us up to 17hours. With 1 hour required for memorization every day we are at 18hours. That leaves 6 hours for crafting while your buddies sleep.

Without Ring of Sustenance:
You and your buddies are adventuring for 15 or so hours a day (a very long day at that). You require 8 hours of sleep which brings us up to 23 hours. With 1 hour required for memorization every day we are at 24 hours, a full day. Due to the rule regarding crafting while adventuring you sneak 4 hours in which only count as 2 hours of crafting time.

The Ring of sustenance has tripled your effective crafting time. Note: Rope Trick is required to provide a quiet, distraction free, environment. It is isolated and safe.

- Gauss

Edit: fixed typo

Silver Crusade

vuron wrote:

Ring of Sustenance allows you to operate for 22 hrs a day rather than 16 hrs a day. That can be a significant boon especially in games where you are constantly on the run.

The main point is that while compressed timelines can negatively impact your ability to craft big ticket items you should be able to craft minor items even within a really compressed AP timeline.

With a more sandbox style design like Kingmaker you can pretty much craft as needed whenever needed.

Not really because you are still limited to a maximum per day of time you can work on an item

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

Vuron is correct, it adds an extra 6 hours per day for you to do something. While this will not increase the amount of time per day that you have to craft magic items beyond the 8 hours per day limit it will make it easier to reach that 8hour mark.

With Ring of Sustenance:
You and your buddies are adventuring for 15 or so hours a day (a very long day at that). You require 2hours of sleep which brings us up to 17hours. With 1 hour required for memorization every day we are at 18hours. That leaves 6 hours for crafting while your buddies sleep.

Without Ring of Sustenance:
You and your buddies are adventuring for 14 or so hours a day (a very long day at that). You require 8 hours of sleep which brings us up to 23 hours. With 1 hour required for memorization every day we are at 24 hours, a full day. Due to the rule regarding crafting while adventuring you sneak 4 hours in which only count as 2 hours of crafting time.

The Ring of sustenance has tripled your effective crafting time. Note: Rope Trick is required to provide a quiet, distraction free, environment. It is isolated and safe.

- Gauss

Incorrect.

You gain nothing different with regards to crafting, at all. You don't get to work on anything longer nor do you get to speed up the time.


How do you figure? In one example the crafting time is 6hours. In the other it was 4hours counts as 2. Neither are at the maximum of 8hours per day.

- Gauss

Silver Crusade

Just to be clear, there is a minimum and a maximum no matter what. Even if you were undeadand didn't require sleep, you still obey the minimum and maximum rule.


Which is not being violated here. You are doing something noncrafting for 18 hours a day and crafting for 6. That is perfectly within the rules.

- Gauss


If you are just lounging about at home you don't need the Ring of Sustenance unless you just like getting 6 more hours of time to do other stuff (like research, or paint, or go to taverns and pick up barmaids).

What the Ring allows you to do is to get more Stuff done in a given day. Some of that stuff includes crafting but some of it can be used to scrying or eating or doing any number of useful non-craft related tasks.

Even in a compressed timeline game this can be really useful for doing stuff like cranking out spell scrolls and wands of CLW which can really keep you in the fight vs high challenge rating foes.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Shallowsoul, re-read what Gauss posted and you cited.
He is right about the ring of sustenance.
I will try to explain it step by step:

1) If you are adventuring you can enchant but at reduced efficiency:

CRB wrote:
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.

2) but, if you can craft in 4 hours uninterrupted blocks you get full efficiency:

CRB wrote:
If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in uninterrupted 4-hour blocks.

if you get a location where you aren't interrupted/distracted.

And that is the function of the rope trick.

3) so Gauss spellcaster would get the benefit of one 4 hours block of work (not 6 hour Gauss) while in the rope trick, thanks to the ring of sustenance.

@Gauss: Shallowsoul is partially right about the laboratory. Some class of items require working materials that you can't fit in a rope trick:

CRB wrote:


Creating Magic Armor
To create magic armor, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools.
...
The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation.

Creating Magic Weapons
To create a magic weapon, a character needs a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools.
...
The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon's creation.

Creating Potions
The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew.

Creating Rings
To create a magic ring, a character needs a heat source. He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled.
...
The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring's creation.

Creating Wondrous Items
To create a wondrous item, a character usually needs some sort of equipment or tools to work on the item. Creating Wondrous Items

I see no way to bring a sufficient heat source in a rope trick, there is elbow space, but not much more, and any spelcaster hammering a armor near my head to enchant it wile I am trying to sleep would end hammered into unconsciousness after two warnings.


I disagree about the heat source being a problem. It does not state what kind of heat source is required so a candle would be sufficient. Perhaps a flameless heat source (alchemy) could be required. Regarding elbow space, there is approximately 225square feet (enough space to fit 8 people +the hole = 15x15 space). Tools could mean anything.

In either case a 40lb Portable Lab should provide everything you need, that should be well within reason.

I do agree that you might need your own Rope Trick due to distractions (yours and theirs) and I mentioned this upthread.

Regarding the 4hour block, I have always read that to be a minimum amount of time you can work on the item not that it must be 4hours and 4hours. However, I see that it does not state that. In my games it will be a 4hour minimum.

Out of curiousity, how do you resolve the inconsistency about 4 hour minimum blocks, 2hour scribe times, and 1 magic item per day? Talk about wasting 2hours a day. The exception does not make an exception for the 4 hour minimum block, it makes an exception for the minimum number of hours required to craft the item per 1000gp. Strictly following RAW in this case results in you twiddling your thumbs for 2hours.

- Gauss


mcv wrote:
There being an item for sale does not mean the buyer is just as easy to find. The item being for sale means that the merchant expects that he'll be able to sell that item, but he can be wrong, and the buyer might not be in the city right now. He could be counting on traveling adventurers just like the PCs, for example. Maybe, if the PCs are high level and reasonably well known, he could be counting on the PCs themselves.

Now you're just throwing up arbitrary roadblocks and obstacles, all which although logical and reasonable are things that don't happen at our table since nobody at the table wants to sit through an episode of merchants and merchandise, and all which would encourage players not to want to take crafting feats which is your perogative... Its not hard to come up with a table called 'a hundred excuses for why a player could never get full price from a crafted item" but our table doesnt try so hard to stymie crafting as much (from your perspective 'make the market more realistic') but neither is wrongbadfun.

mcv wrote:
You can't expect a profitable and easily exploitable market to be ready waiting for you at your convenience when you come out of that dungeon. If you want to exploit a market, you've got to put in the time and money and take risk just like everybody else.

I can and I do and thats why I'm at my table instead of yours... The 'nobody wants that do they?' that you use about WBL is the same argument we use against the colorful if more realistic, time consuming and troublesome rulings you use for crafting. Again. Neither is wrong. You either make things easy or you make them hard, and there's plenty of players around who prefer both or either or neither.


LazarX wrote:
Let's see, buy a multi-thousand gp item to put on one of my common laborers who'll only get it taken from him by the next rogue who comes down the alley, or use a fraction of that money to simply hire the services of a whole crew of workers.... Which do you think increases the profit margin more? Most things that benefit a hero in combat have very little practical application. Remember that even in the Bronze Age, docks used things like block and tackle to move loads to much to handle by brute humans strength.

As I said a tiny hamlet couldnt afford a 'multi-thousand gp item' so you're defeating my argument by changing the scale of it to fit your opinion... Then you flip sides and say that hiring a bunch more workers is less expensive over time than a one time investment in some muleback cords that your existing workers could use ad infinitum... Hey... Whatever makes you feel better about how cities handle labor... I could argue that why would you want to hire a bunch of strangers-you-don't-know-if-you-can-trust when you could just make the workers you already have and already trust do twice the work in half the time... Instead if I use your tactic of changing scales to support my argument then following those kinds of philosophies to their logical conclusion makes me wonder why there's even a golemworks at all...

Just seems like a lotta effort being put into keeping a feat down when other feat combinations reach such lofty heights, but to each his own.


johnlocke90 wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
In my games, crafting does not consist of popping open the CRB or the magic item guide and looking at each item to decide which one you want to make. No where does utility say you are automatically gifted with the blueprints of every item that exists. You are going to have to giveme an in game reason as to how you know about that certain item, special items even more.
Really easy to get around. "My father was a master magic swordsmith and I watched him craft."

Agree completely. Hedge magicians apprentice trait seems to fit soundly into this trope.


mcv wrote:
Personally I'd like to say that magic items are so expensive because they are so rare, but when magic item creation is reliable and accessible, that doesn't really work anymore.But if item crafting is common and there is a reliable market, then selling prices should plummet to just above cost. If they don't, there clearly have to be a lot of hidden costs involved. The risk of not selling an item is a pretty big one here, but with magic items being so expensive, they're also prime targets for thieves. Anyone dealing in expensive magic items would need really good magical protection and the best guards the city has to offer. Any PC suspected of owning magic items would attract the attention of every thief in the city.

Personally i'd like to think that the guy running the docks is only in charge of such an operation because he's got the tools to keep his baliwick in safe sound running order, in the same way that i'd expect a pirate ship not to be commanded by your average farmboy, so keeping the thieves out of the docks seems like something they'd already have well in hand, probably using magic. Funny how just about every intelligent creature I run into in our campaign has at least one, and anyone who's considered notable in their field typically has many...

mcv wrote:
From a world-building point of view, I wouldn't mind getting rid of crafting. It makes magic too mundane. Instead, make the creation of any item a quest in itself.

Clearly. On the other hand the back of the core book says 'Enter a fantastic world of adventure' and inside is a big old huge list of magic items... I don't know what to tell ya. For people who think magic items are bad there's always warhammer, but hey. Whatever keeps everybody havin fun.

mcv wrote:

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gauss wrote:

I disagree about the heat source being a problem. It does not state what kind of heat source is required so a candle would be sufficient. Perhaps a flameless heat source (alchemy) could be required. Regarding elbow space, there is approximately 225square feet (enough space to fit 8 people +the hole = 15x15 space). Tools could mean anything.

In either case a 40lb Portable Lab should provide everything you need, that should be well within reason.

I do agree that you might need your own Rope Trick due to distractions (yours and theirs) and I mentioned this upthread.

Regarding the 4hour block, I have always read that to be a minimum amount of time you can work on the item not that it must be 4hours and 4hours. However, I see that it does not state that. In my games it will be a 4hour minimum.

Out of curiousity, how do you resolve the inconsistency about 4 hour minimum blocks, 2hour scribe times, and 1 magic item per day? Talk about wasting 2hours a day. The exception does not make an exception for the 4 hour minimum block, it makes an exception for the minimum number of hours required to craft the item per 1000gp. Strictly following RAW in this case results in you twiddling your thumbs for 2hours.

- Gauss

Heat source in combination with the appropriate tools, Gauss.

It speak of heating the material and hammering it, at least for armor end weapons.

Potions speak of "source of heat to boil the brew", doing that with a candle isn't easy.

My impression is that to enchant something you should at leas t"fake" forging/crafting it. We will see if the Campaign book will give extra details about that.

About the 1 item a day and time spent, my opinion is that, with the exception of low cost potions and scrolls you can't direct the magical energy to different items in the same day, so yes, there will be some thumb fiddling.
When not making low cost potions and scrolls there is a long preparatory phase that force you to spend 8 hours even if you will produce an item worth only 300 gp.

Quote:
Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item.

So, barring accelerate crafting, you will always need to work for at least 8 hours to produce something.

A question to you:
Really you feel that your character would spend 22 hours every day for all his life adventuring and crafting?
I like my leisure time. I can work for long shift for a time but I will not do that if the prospective is to do it forever.
Maybe your spellcasters see crafting as a kind of hobby and relaxing, but still spending all your free time on it seem questionable.


My point about the heat was there is no actual rule as to the strength of the heat although there is plenty of intent. People love to argue the RAW around here without intent. It is up to the GM and players to work out intent if it is not spelled out.

About the 4hour block, I think you missed my point. I was saying that a 250gp scroll takes 2 hours instead of 8 per 1000gp but the minimum block of time is 4 hours. Since there is no exception to the block of time statement and since you can only make 1 item a day the 2 hours really means 4 hours if you follow RAW closely.

As for your question: no I do not, I also do not think that adventuring days are 15hours long. I was trying to explain the math to shallowsoul. But, if we really want to discuss long workdays: the 8hour workday is a modern construct. Historically people labored hard from sun-up to sun-down. I have done so myself. Is it tiring? Sure. But it is not unreasonable.

- Gauss

Silver Crusade

johnlocke90 wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
In my games, crafting does not consist of popping open the CRB or the magic item guide and looking at each item to decide which one you want to make. No where does utility say you are automatically gifted with the blueprints of every item that exists. You are going to have to giveme an in game reason as to how you know about that certain item, special items even more.
Really easy to get around. "My father was a master magic swordsmith and I watched him craft."

Incorrect.

This still doesn't give you the full blue prints of every magic item that exists, I don't give a rats ass who your father was but unless he is the god of magic items he isn't going to know that kind of information. Your father being a master swordsmith doesn't really mean squat because it doesn't open you up to all swords automatically so don't pretend like it's some easy peasy way around it. I would say your father taught you the secrets of a sword or two but that's about it. You need to be finding this info out during game time not background time.

Silver Crusade

Item Creation:

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot
rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need
not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as
he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours
each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth
of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but
rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches
at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in
uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a
controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum,
such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in
a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the
amount of progress ( just as with the adventuring caster).
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a
character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the
under-construction item are wasted.

There it is, straight from the CRB. A Ring of Sustenance does not further aid you in the crafting of magic items. Your amount of sleep has nothing to do with the item creation rules, whether you have 2 hours or none, you are still limited to what you can do. Thanks for playing, this argument is over.


Shallowsoul:

I am curious, which part of the section you quoted indicates that you cannot use the 6 hours you are not sleeping for crafting instead. Assuming the crafter is not violating the maximum of 8hours per day of crafting (which the crafter is not, nobody is suggesting he is).

The rules state what the maximum limit is and what you can gain while adventuring. It does not state that you cannot do it while everyone else is asleep. You are not adventuring at that point.

Also, can you show me anywhere in the rules that state a crafter must have 'blueprints' in order to craft magic items?

- Gauss

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
tennengar wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Let's see, buy a multi-thousand gp item to put on one of my common laborers who'll only get it taken from him by the next rogue who comes down the alley, or use a fraction of that money to simply hire the services of a whole crew of workers.... Which do you think increases the profit margin more? Most things that benefit a hero in combat have very little practical application. Remember that even in the Bronze Age, docks used things like block and tackle to move loads to much to handle by brute humans strength.

As I said a tiny hamlet couldnt afford a 'multi-thousand gp item' so you're defeating my argument by changing the scale of it to fit your opinion... Then you flip sides and say that hiring a bunch more workers is less expensive over time than a one time investment in some muleback cords that your existing workers could use ad infinitum... Hey... Whatever makes you feel better about how cities handle labor... I could argue that why would you want to hire a bunch of strangers-you-don't-know-if-you-can-trust when you could just make the workers you already have and already trust do twice the work in half the time... Instead if I use your tactic of changing scales to support my argument then following those kinds of philosophies to their logical conclusion makes me wonder why there's even a golemworks at all...

Just seems like a lotta effort being put into keeping a feat down when other feat combinations reach such lofty heights, but to each his own.

Except that your belt of strength wouldn't "double your output" all it would do would be to add +1 to str related checks and put in a modest improvement on carry capacity. Given that the average dock worker probably makes at most 1 or 2 gold pieces a day, does it really make sense to get ONE item for one person instead of of purchasing 2,000 man/days? I'll get much more work done with the extra personnel than than the slight increase to one commoner's capabilities.

Hiring one person for everyone I already have doubles my output for far cheaper. Nor do I have such a risky investment by giving a common worker a magic item which will be lifted by the next adventuring party's rogue who most likely will slit his throat for it. Then I'm out both the money on the item and the worker I gave it to in the first place.

I'm not doing this to "keep your feat down". I'm simply applying both simple economics and general fact. Dock areas are generally the seediest parts of any city. One has to take the entire picture into account if you're going to argue economics.


shallowsoul wrote:

Item Creation:

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot
rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need
not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as
he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours
each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth
of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but
rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches
at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in
uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a
controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum,
such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in
a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the
amount of progress ( just as with the adventuring caster).
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a
character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the
under-construction item are wasted.

There it is, straight from the CRB. A Ring of Sustenance does not further aid you in the crafting of magic items. Your amount of sleep has nothing to do with the item creation rules, whether you have 2 hours or none, you are still limited to what you can do. Thanks for playing, this argument is over.

Actually the CRB posting in no way supports nor says anything in reference to the Ring of Sustenance and doesnt support your argument at all... If I'm out adventuring and was able to make it through the day without casting the spell i need to craft (or take the +5 penalty for crafting without the spell), someone else takes first watch while i'm sustenance sleeping for my 2 hours... then I start crafting 'during watches at night in uninterrupted 4 hour blocks, but only nets 2 hours of progress, but i'm using accelerated crafting for a +5 difficulty to double my crafting rate, then i netted 4 hours of crafting in 4 hours while travelling... I'll still have 2 hours to twiddle my thumbs before the rest of the party wakes up with which to do those wizardly things like studying my spells for the new day.

Silver Crusade

Jhidurievdrioshka wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

Item Creation:

The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot
rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need
not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as
he sees fit. If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours
each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth
of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but
rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches
at night. If time is dedicated to creation, it must be spent in
uninterrupted 4-hour blocks. This work is generally done in a
controlled environment, where distractions are at a minimum,
such as a laboratory or shrine. Work that is performed in
a distracting or dangerous environment nets only half the
amount of progress ( just as with the adventuring caster).
A character can work on only one item at a time. If a
character starts work on a new item, all materials used on the
under-construction item are wasted.

There it is, straight from the CRB. A Ring of Sustenance does not further aid you in the crafting of magic items. Your amount of sleep has nothing to do with the item creation rules, whether you have 2 hours or none, you are still limited to what you can do. Thanks for playing, this argument is over.

Actually the CRB posting in no way supports nor says anything in reference to the Ring of Sustenance and doesnt support your argument at all... If I'm out adventuring and was able to make it through the day without casting the spell i need to craft (or take the +5 penalty for crafting without the spell), someone else takes first watch while i'm sustenance sleeping for my 2 hours... then I start crafting 'during watches at night in uninterrupted 4 hour blocks, but only nets 2 hours of progress, but i'm using accelerated crafting for a +5 difficulty to double my crafting rate, then i netted 4 hours of crafting in 4 hours while travelling... I'll still have 2 hours to twiddle my thumbs before the rest of...

Actually it does, you might want to sit back and actually read it. Whether you wear a Ring of Sustenance or not, or you don't even sleep at all changes absolutely nothing what so ever. You can only work on one item per day day up to a maximum of 8 hours. A Ring of Sustenance changes nothing.


LazarX wrote:
Except that your belt of strength wouldn't "double your output" all it would do would be to add +1 to str related checks and put in a modest improvement on carry capacity. Given that the average dock worker probably makes at most 1 or 2 gold pieces a day, does it really make sense to get ONE item for one person instead of of purchasing 2,000 man/days? I'll get much more work done with the extra personnel than than the slight increase to one commoner's capabilities.

Which all sounds peachy except I was talking about muleback cords not belts of strength so your price is wrong and and effects are wrong, so your logic is wrong.

Let me refresh your memory...

tennengar wrote:
As I said a tiny hamlet couldnt afford a 'multi-thousand gp item' so you're defeating my argument by changing the scale of it to fit your opinion... Then you flip sides and say that hiring a bunch more workers is less expensive over time than a one time investment in some muleback cords that your existing workers could use ad infinitum...


I'm not and never have implied that ring of sustenance allows you to make more than one magic item per day. Who said that was possible because I agree with you it wouldnt, anda ring of sustenance wouldnt help in any way to make more than one item per day.

The point i'm making is

shallowsoul wrote:
A Ring of Sustenance does not further aid you in the crafting of magic items. Your amount of sleep has nothing to do with the item creation rule.

is not accurate... having 6 extra hours per day makes a 4 hour adventurers crafting time easier to fit in than it would be if you tried to convince your party to make camp 4 hours early every night so you could craft... Now you can do it without inconveniencing your party.... The 4 hours you spend crafting is the time you'd normally have spent sleeping which is no longer an issue. I didn't say that it means suddenly you can make more items per day... I'm not sure who said that but I'd agree with you that more than one magic item per day is not possible unless you're using compressed time planes.


In order to make 2 magic items per day using compressed time planes you would gain no benefit from only spending 4 hours there... You'd have to stay there in compressed time all day long... This isnt a valid option unless you're safe in town and the rest of the party isnt doing anything consequential... Then you could just put together all your ingredients, head off to your compressed time plane where you craft for 2 days and when you return only one day has passed....

As you say it is still true that a ring of sustenance will not help you make more than 1 magic item per day, but it is definitely helpful for making 1 magic item per day in a way that doesn't annoy your party.


Gauss wrote:

I disagree about the heat source being a problem. It does not state what kind of heat source is required so a candle would be sufficient. Perhaps a flameless heat source (alchemy) could be required. Regarding elbow space, there is approximately 225square feet (enough space to fit 8 people +the hole = 15x15 space). Tools could mean anything.

In either case a 40lb Portable Lab should provide everything you need, that should be well within reason.

I do agree that you might need your own Rope Trick due to distractions (yours and theirs) and I mentioned this upthread.

Regarding the 4hour block, I have always read that to be a minimum amount of time you can work on the item not that it must be 4hours and 4hours. However, I see that it does not state that. In my games it will be a 4hour minimum.

Out of curiousity, how do you resolve the inconsistency about 4 hour minimum blocks, 2hour scribe times, and 1 magic item per day? Talk about wasting 2hours a day. The exception does not make an exception for the 4 hour minimum block, it makes an exception for the minimum number of hours required to craft the item per 1000gp. Strictly following RAW in this case results in you twiddling your thumbs for 2hours.

- Gauss

Actually you don't even need a candle. Your body is a heat source.


Isnt there a firefinger cantrip? Maybe thats why crafting take so long. sometimes you're forging a sword from the heat of your pinky... Heheheheh.


shallowsoul wrote:
johnlocke90 wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
In my games, crafting does not consist of popping open the CRB or the magic item guide and looking at each item to decide which one you want to make. No where does utility say you are automatically gifted with the blueprints of every item that exists. You are going to have to giveme an in game reason as to how you know about that certain item, special items even more.
Really easy to get around. "My father was a master magic swordsmith and I watched him craft."

Incorrect.

This still doesn't give you the full blue prints of every magic item that exists, I don't give a rats ass who your father was but unless he is the god of magic items he isn't going to know that kind of information. Your father being a master swordsmith doesn't really mean squat because it doesn't open you up to all swords automatically so don't pretend like it's some easy peasy way around it. I would say your father taught you the secrets of a sword or two but that's about it. You need to be finding this info out during game time not background time.

Which is solved with planning. You just have to make sure you know what magic items you want to craft during character creation, then you can tailor your background to include those items.

Silver Crusade

johnlocke90 wrote:
Gauss wrote:

I disagree about the heat source being a problem. It does not state what kind of heat source is required so a candle would be sufficient. Perhaps a flameless heat source (alchemy) could be required. Regarding elbow space, there is approximately 225square feet (enough space to fit 8 people +the hole = 15x15 space). Tools could mean anything.

In either case a 40lb Portable Lab should provide everything you need, that should be well within reason.

I do agree that you might need your own Rope Trick due to distractions (yours and theirs) and I mentioned this upthread.

Regarding the 4hour block, I have always read that to be a minimum amount of time you can work on the item not that it must be 4hours and 4hours. However, I see that it does not state that. In my games it will be a 4hour minimum.

Out of curiousity, how do you resolve the inconsistency about 4 hour minimum blocks, 2hour scribe times, and 1 magic item per day? Talk about wasting 2hours a day. The exception does not make an exception for the 4 hour minimum block, it makes an exception for the minimum number of hours required to craft the item per 1000gp. Strictly following RAW in this case results in you twiddling your thumbs for 2hours.

- Gauss

Actually you don't even need a candle. Your body is a heat source.

I really hope you are just taking the piss.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Jhidurievdrioshka wrote:
Actually the CRB posting in no way supports nor says anything in reference to the Ring of Sustenance and doesnt support your argument at all... If I'm out adventuring and was able to make it through the day without casting the spell i need to craft (or take the +5 penalty for crafting without the spell), someone else takes first watch while i'm sustenance sleeping for my 2 hours... then I start crafting 'during watches at night in uninterrupted 4 hour blocks, but only nets 2 hours of progress, but i'm using accelerated crafting for a +5 difficulty to double my crafting rate, then i netted 4 hours of crafting in 4 hours while travelling... I'll still have 2 hours to twiddle my thumbs before the rest of the party wakes up with which to do those wizardly things like studying my spells for the new day.

Note that you can't use accelerate crafting unless you have "a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work", so you can't use it while adventuring.

On the other hand, devoting 4+ uninterrupted hour to crafting will net you 4+ hours of crafting, not 2.
Done in the open it will probably attract something, but if you are travelling with a Varisian caravan or something similar it will work well. With a well equipped Varisian caravan you would have the "fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work" too.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
shallowsoul wrote:
Actually it does, you might want to sit back and actually read it. Whether you wear a Ring of Sustenance or not, or you don't even sleep at all changes absolutely nothing what so ever. You can only work on one item per day day up to a maximum of 8 hours. A Ring of Sustenance changes nothing.

shallowsoul, please read what people is writhing and not what you think they are writing. No one claimed that you can craft more than 8 hours in a day. What they say is that the ring allow you to work those 8 hours even if you do other things during the day.


Diego Rossi: Can you quote the line that states that accelerated crafting requires what you state it does? The only line I can find regarding accelerated crafting is:

CRB p549 wrote:
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

I do not see anything that indicates how those 4 hours per 1000gp are acquired. Simply that you must have 4hours per 1000gp instead of 8 hours per 1000gp. Thus, any means to acquire hours (crafting while adventuring, crafting while distracted, or crafting normally) would all add to the time to completion. Only the require number of hours to completion the item has changed due to accelerated crafting.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:
I disagree about the heat source being a problem. It does not state what kind of heat source is required so a candle would be sufficient. Perhaps a flameless heat source (alchemy) could be required.

The heat source generally needs to more than symbolic, so a candle is insufficient.

Armor and weapons typically would require a way to heat the metal to temper it. So a forge with bellows or a high temperature alchemical heat source should be required.

Potions probably only need to simmer, so a charcoal brazier or spirit-lamp should do nicely. If you are working on the trail you could use the campfire, but the uneven heating would require you to keep an eye on it to avoid boiling over.

For rings a spirit-lamp with a blowpipe would be the tool of choice.


My2Cents:

I do not disagree with you in principle, I am just stating what RAW states. If people want to debate the RAW I can do that. But we cannot then mix in things like 'needs to be more than symbolic' since the RAW does not clarify what qualifies.

Summary:
RAW states a heat source, this can be anything even a candle since it does not state what qualifies.
RAI is probably a significant heat source, but this is still up to the GM and player to work out what that means.

- Gauss

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gauss wrote:

Diego Rossi: Can you quote the line that states that accelerated crafting requires what you state it does? The only line I can find regarding accelerated crafting is:

CRB p549 wrote:
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

I do not see anything that indicates how those 4 hours per 1000gp are acquired. Simply that you must have 4hours per 1000gp instead of 8 hours per 1000gp. Thus, any means to acquire hours (crafting while adventuring, crafting while distracted, or crafting normally) would all add to the time to completion. Only the require number of hours to completion the item has changed due to accelerated crafting.

- Gauss

You should read the whole paragraph, is a single body of text:

CRB wrote:
The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

As I read it you can accelerate this process only if you have a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work.

As a lot of thing about crafting it is subject to GM interpretation.

I think this post from SKR support that interpretation too:

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Just to be sure we're clear: accelerated crafting doesn't let you exceed the "8 hours of work per day" limit. Accelerated crafting lets you work for 4 hours and treat it as 8 hours, and then work for another 4 hours and treat it as 8 hours, for a total of 16-effective-hours (2,000 gp) of work per day.

He say: "you work for 4 hours and treat it as 8 hours", not: you work for 4 hours, and then double the time worked. So it function only if you are working at least for 4 uninterrupted hours.

- * -

About the fire thing, from what I know (very little) a good sized campfire can be used to minor work with metal items. You don't want to reforge or retemper the item so you don't need or want to heat it too much.
I agree with Gauss that is open to GM interpretation.


Diego: In english if you have a more recent reference then it does not necessarily reference things prior to that.

CRB p549 wrote:
The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires 8 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof), with a minimum of at least 8 hours. Potions and scrolls are an exception to this rule; they can take as little as 2 hours to create (if their base price is 250 gp or less). Scrolls and potions whose base price is more than 250 gp, but less than 1,000 gp, take 8 hours to create, just like any other magic item. The character must spend the gold at the beginning of the construction process. Regardless of the time needed for construction, a caster can create no more than one magic item per day. This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item's base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by +5.

Because of this it does not reference the first sentence in the paragraph but in fact references the sentence two sentences earlier. Of course, I could be mistaken but that is why I read it to directly reference the process regarding value rather than the place in which to work which does not use the phrase 'process'.

In addition, 1 page earlier it defines the ENTIRE procedure of creating a magic item as 'process'.

CRB p548 wrote:
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item’s creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item.

In short, any magic item creation is 'the process' and there is no direct reference that acceleration is referencing a separate process.

Regarding SKR's statement, I do not think he was trying to answer it comprehensively (ie: all possible permutations). Did he specifically state you cannot accelerate crafting if you are using the 4hours = 2hours means? How about when you combine crafting while adventuring with crafting while not adventuring?

- Gauss

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

The process of spending gold is accelerated? ^_^
Doesn't sound right. Especially as there isn't a speed at which you spend the gold. You always spend it at the start of the process.

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