Found it, using bluff for seduction is in Sword and Fist, page 10. Our groups have used this book heavily. It is used to gain "small" favours.
Sword and Fist was a "guidebook to fighters and monks".
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And pretty much all of the above is a great exercise in not only deviating from RAW but flat out making skills do things they don't do, or suggesting that seducing someone is a bluff check (I fail to see how it's a bluff check, as seduction =! deception).
Well... Gotta admit there is a little bit of deception involved... Heh
My group also uses Bluff... We were in doubt between Bluff and Diplomacy, but since the character in question had more ranks in Bluff, we decided to use it.
Our rule of thumb is: If we are in doubt about how a rule works, then it works the ways most benefitial for the player until it's clarified.
And pretty much all of the above is a great exercise in not only deviating from RAW but flat out making skills do things they don't do, or suggesting that seducing someone is a bluff check (I fail to see how it's a bluff check, as seduction =! deception).Well... Gotta admit there is a little bit of deception involved... Heh
Reminds me of comedian Jim Jeffries bit on sluts vs studs, and why it is completely fair to have the views people have. It is easy to be a slut, you just have to be THERE. It is HARD to be a stud. You need a nice car, good looks and a fake job.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would really respect a bard that did that, to walk in the monk's sandals for a day or two.
I've build bards like this before. Not that kicked their foes, but who fought in melee (with a short sword no less :P) who were quite competent at outpacing a monk she knew (and could mop the floor with him when they dueled).
Ashield, you sir, could do with a cup of tea.
I really could, but we have no tea in the house. Just sodas. :(
Found it, using bluff for seduction is in Sword and Fist, page 10. Our groups have used this book heavily. It is used to gain "small" favours.
I thought that might be the case, though I had actually expected it to be in Song & Silence. That being said I'd still use Diplomacy today, because I feel it's more appropriate. Especially since Diplomacy is pretty much go-to for "small favors" and can very easily be used to negotiate social encounters in ways that are favorable to you, or could be used for seduction.
For example. Let's say you have a Fighter who wants to impress someone to get them to go out with her. Diplomacy is as much knowing what to say, when to say it, and how to present yourself so as to negotiate through any social encounter that doesn't involve outright deception (though deception might be interact with diplomacy, such as by convincing someone your motives are pure when they aren't).
Maybe instead your heroic Fighter wants to have a ye ol' one night stand with a handsome bartender 'cause she is feeling frisky and thinks the bartender is a cutie. So she comes up and strikes up a conversation. Now her Charisma is only a 7 because she is naturally more comfortable with the rowdy soldierly crowd, but she wants to pick this guy up and his Charisma is a 13 (so she's at a net 3 disadvantage to begin with). However, through experience she has become a lot better at dealing with people and has a +7 Diplomacy from ranks and another +2 Diplomacy for being well dressed (mwk tool, parade armor, whatever).
She walks up and begins talking to him. She wants to first make a good impression so she opens with a little casual flirting and joking to see if it takes. She decides to play it safe and takes 10 for a 17. He was indifferent (DC 15) with a 13 Charisma so the DC was 16. After a short interaction (about a minute) his attitude towards her improves (at least for now) as he's getting into her charms a bit.
A little later she decides she wants to make her move and ask him to her room after his shift. She makes her request. The base DC is 11 (10 + his Charisma modifier for being Friendly) plus a modifier based on how apprehensive he would be about her request. Now he's not one for one night stands (he's a bit of a romantic) and he could get a he also doesn't want to get a reputation for sleeping around, so looking at the examples on the list we could see that +10 to the DC would fairly appropriate (it's a request that could come back to bite him). It's a hard sell. She could try to lie to him with Bluff and imply she isn't just trying to get into his pants, which could reduce the DC (because he believes it's more than just a fling), but she's not the sort to break hearts like that (and she sucks at lying with her -2 and no real practice at it).
So she decides to try it anyway. She makes her move and says some nice things in hopes he'll buy into it. She rolls a 15 + 9 for a 24. Enough to hit the DC of 21 that she'd need to get him to agree. So she convinces him to throw caution to the wind for just one night, and the two go do what they do on the Discovery Channel (or Dragon Age, whichever you prefer). She seduced him and successfully navigated/negotiated the social situation in the direction that she wanted. Perhaps, circumstances be willing, it might become more and the two will see more of each other and form a more lasting bond (one that lasts more than a few hours). Time may tell.
Naturally Diplomacy is not mind control. The likelihood of getting someone to go against their preferences would be pretty slim (at least a much higher DC would be in order). Our heroine might get no where with her advances if the cute bartender guy happens to be a homosexual or is married and loyal (or the DC might be increased significantly in either case).
Keep in mind, this is using Diplomacy as it's written. Negotiating a social encounter, resolve differences, negotiate certain conflicts, and get someone to agree with you.
And pretty much all of the above is a great exercise in not only deviating from RAW but flat out making skills do things they don't do, or suggesting that seducing someone is a bluff check (I fail to see how it's a bluff check, as seduction =! deception).Well... Gotta admit there is a little bit of deception involved... Heh
My group also uses Bluff... We were in doubt between Bluff and Diplomacy, but since the character in question had more ranks in Bluff, we decided to use it.
Our rule of thumb is: If we are in doubt about how a rule works, then it works the ways most benefitial for the player until it's clarified.
In general I'd probably handle it as I gave an example in my last post. A Diplomacy check that can be made easier with a successful Bluff check (and the better the Bluff check the better the DC discount on the Diplomacy check). A sly Bluffer might be able to fool someone into believing his advances are sincere, and thus make them less apprehensive or even desire his requests of them. It seems to me that your ruling on the matter was fair though. (^-^)
This is one of those situations where having a variety of skills may assist in a given task. :P
http://memegenerator.net/instance/29330879
I suppose a big problem I have with dip for sed, is diplomacy just isn't sexy enough. Bluff though, bluff is sexy.
:D
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bluff check giving a bonus to a Diplomacy check makes sense. reminds me of the old skill synergy from 3.5.
But then again, even though it's actually quite simple, it still feels overcomplicated for such a minor part of the game.
I like the idea of it being possible with either Diplomacy or Bluff. Both of them make sense, actually.
A bard may not directly ask the girl to follow him to his room (which would be a Diplomacy check), but she might want to do it anyway if he successfully convinces her that he's known for being the worlds most well-endowed billionaire, who happens to have absurd levels of stamina (a Bluff check, unless of course, he trully is the world most well-endowed millionaire, who also happens to have absurd levels of stamina... but if that's the case, why the hell would he be an adventurer?).
This is a silly example, of course, but I like when you can achieve the same goal through different skills (as long as the player is able to explain/describe his course of action).
Want to climb a tree? Well, you can use Climb and, welll, climb it, or use Acrobatics and jump up there. Who knows, maybe you get on top of you cheetah Animal Companion and Ride your way to the top of the tree. Or you finally get to use those ranks in Profession(Aplle-stealer). Haha
http://memegenerator.net/instance/29330879
I suppose a big problem I have with dip for sed, is diplomacy just isn't sexy enough. Bluff though, bluff is sexy.
:D
I would allow either, but Diplomacy to me would represent an honest, genuine approach, whereas Bluff would be more of a sleazy thing. No real difference mechanically, but I'd consider narrative/RP/reputation effects...
Yes, Bluff is a bit sexier than Diplomacy. But I wouldn't try and Bluff-seduce a woman I was genuinely interested in :)
http://memegenerator.net/instance/29330879
I suppose a big problem I have with dip for sed, is diplomacy just isn't sexy enough. Bluff though, bluff is sexy.
:D
I would allow either, but Diplomacy to me would represent an honest, genuine approach, whereas Bluff would be more of a sleazy thing. No real difference mechanically, but I'd consider narrative/RP/reputation effects...
Yes, Bluff is a bit sexier than Diplomacy. But I wouldn't try and Bluff-seduce a woman I was genuinely interested in :)
Well as long as we're being honest about it, I think both skills have their uses in the art of social encounters. I do believe that someone who relies on Bluff is going to have more long term problems. The sort of person who deceives someone in believing they're legit, only to find out as their relationship furthers that they're full of poo-doo. Probably the sort of person who gets a reputation as a jerk-tramp who uses people, or turns out to be just another person who isn't what they said they were. I won't deny a well placed lie might definitely get you where you're looking to go though (which is why I said I'd definitely allow them to be used in conjunction).
But yeah. :P
Bluff check giving a bonus to a Diplomacy check makes sense. reminds me of the old skill synergy from 3.5.
But then again, even though it's actually quite simple, it still feels overcomplicated for such a minor part of the game.
I like the idea of it being possible with either Diplomacy or Bluff. Both of them make sense, actually.
On a side note, the whole thing can be played out as an elaborate encounter, or just handled in one to three rolls (minimum 1 Diplomacy request, possibly a check to improve attitude and request, possibly a Bluff check to make you see like it's a great idea). I just gave the fluff breakdown of what each step entailed. It's really not so complicated. :P
A bard may not directly ask the girl to follow him to his room (which would be a Diplomacy check), but she might want to do it anyway if he successfully convinces her that he's known for being the worlds most well-endowed billionaire, who happens to have absurd levels of stamina (a Bluff check, unless of course, he trully is the world most well-endowed millionaire, who also happens to have absurd levels of stamina... but if that's the case, why the hell would he be an adventurer?).
Clearly to be a billionaire who is well-endowed and rocking stamina. I mean, a 9th level bard has so much HP that all the nonlethal damage from exhaustion isn't going to phase him, and that's before he buffs with the little blue spell they call bear's endurance (and boy what a bear). On top of that, if every copper piece is a dollar (and that actually seems pretty accurate based off goods & services) then your typical 9th level bard is an incredibly rich and stylish individual (the fool is probably wearing 780,000 copper pieces worth of equipment in his usual day, and that's if he's using NPC wealth). Circumstance modifiers for the win sir. :P
Want to climb a tree? Well, you can use Climb and, welll, climb it, or use Acrobatics and jump up there. Who knows, maybe you get on top of you cheetah Animal Companion and Ride your way to the top of the tree. Or you finally get to use those ranks in Profession(Aplle-stealer). Haha
Heheh, here here! There's more than one way to skin a snake.
If a monk or any char has a low charisma and no ranks in any of the social skills, that is going to bite them in the arse in the games I run. Games where you can choose to diffuse conflicts, get enemies to back down, bring warring sides to the table, etc etc. If you don't have the skills here, you can only fight/use magic/or try something unorthodox. Think about it, no real possibility to persuade, trick, enforce your will in any type of social combat, interview/investigation/court intrigue. What a handicap, and it isn't pure homebrew here. If you are on a -2 to diplomacy you may never do well in a dip check in an entire campaign.
{Other Stuff}
Sit down, 3.5 loyalist, before you read the next line.
I agree with you on this.
Seriously, charisma skills matter in certain games. In an urban environment where social interactions are important for finding information and getting allies, this skill set is very important. This is what bards and rogues (and a few other characters) can excel at. Anyone else? Well, you think the baker might know something, but how do you get him to tell you? He doesn't like heavily armed men, shifty thieves and wizards that truck with demons and corpses - and he's not to fond of god-botherers telling him what to think either.
SO yes, the social skills are important. Not every game is a solid dungeon crawl from start to finish.
So not to shift back to the topic or anything but even though I don't like monks, I thought of making one to help a rogue or ninja get sneak attacks by setting victims up with stunning fist and having the Rogue swoop in after for sneak attack while the enemy is stunned. Viable?
I use Bluff for clear attempts to seduce someone rapidly, and diplomacy is about slow courtship, intimidate is err also effective but unlikely to win you the long term affections of your "target".
Basically the rogue or bard using Bluff is doing the whole pickup artist routine (adapted for medieval times), it's about sealing the deal before the person has the ability to think through their actions.
Diplomacy is more related to the formal courtship that would be expected in most societies especially among the political and social elites. Want to impress a princess? Courtly graces expressed in Diplomacy is what you's want to use.
I generally disagree with any method that double penalizes low charisma. Invariably they are also going to have poor social skills other than maybe something like Intimidate for fighters so making them suffer an additional penalty isn't really fair.
I think really attractive individuals should probably invest in a feat selection that provides additional bonuses to social skill use if the target is sexually attracted to you (borrowed from M&M/DCA). Everyone else is some degree of either nondescript or mildly attractive. Even ugly people are generally hollywood ugly.
I do think there is a role for situational +2/-2 effects. Even the most uncharismatic fighter can probably seduce a partner if he's just saved the village from a Orc Raid, by a similar token if he's been crawling around in the sewers fighting Otyughs then he's going to take a big penalty.
If a monk or any char has a low charisma and no ranks in any of the social skills, that is going to bite them in the arse in the games I run. Games where you can choose to diffuse conflicts, get enemies to back down, bring warring sides to the table, etc etc. If you don't have the skills here, you can only fight/use magic/or try something unorthodox. Think about it, no real possibility to persuade, trick, enforce your will in any type of social combat, interview/investigation/court intrigue. What a handicap, and it isn't pure homebrew here. If you are on a -2 to diplomacy you may never do well in a dip check in an entire campaign.
{Other Stuff}
Sit down, 3.5 loyalist, before you read the next line.
I agree with you on this.
Seriously, charisma skills matter in certain games. In an urban environment where social interactions are important for finding information and getting allies, this skill set is very important. This is what bards and rogues (and a few other characters) can excel at. Anyone else? Well, you think the baker might know something, but how do you get him to tell you? He doesn't like heavily armed men, shifty thieves and wizards that truck with demons and corpses - and he's not to fond of god-botherers telling him what to think either.
SO yes, the social skills are important. Not every game is a solid dungeon crawl from start to finish.
I agree with this as well. I think that what is being presented is an exercise in extremes however. To say that having a -2 Diplomacy means you may never do well in a Diplomacy check the entire campaign just seems silly to me. Especially if you invest a bit into it.
This is part of one of the things that I feel makes the game more realistic actually. People learn to improve their social skills all the time. Generally through practice. If you never put points into stuff of that nature throughout a campaign, then sure I totally agree that the -2 hurts and won't get any better (but it's not that much worse than a +0 that never gets any better, as it's only a 10% difference).
I have characters all the time who dip a few skills here and there because I want them to be well rounded adventurers/beings. A point or two in Linguistics to learn a new language. A couple points in Sense Motive, Bluff, or Diplomacy. Some of my PCs like Fighters and even Monks have a few ranks in Disguise.
I use Bluff for clear attempts to seduce someone rapidly,
PC: "Hey baby, get in mah pants. *rolls bluff check vs poor-ish Sense Motive*
NPC: "I am now in your pants!"And that was the story of Johnny Quickpick, fastest seducer in the east. Never met a commoner he couldn't get into his pants on the first try and always in less than one minute. Truly a suave individual he was.
Of course, your average commoner could as well. I mean Bluff vs Sense Motive, your average person can just walk up to someone on the street and have a pretty good chance of getting into their pants or them into their own.
The real question is, why on earth are these people wearing pants that are so large!?
@vuron -Circumstances matter. The high charisma guy who poisoned your puppy isn't as likable to you as the low charisma guy who cured him.
I agree. On a side note, if you can poison somebody's puppy AND still get them to go gaga over you, then you most be a social super prodigy. XD
Or you bluffed them into thinking the ugly guy did it. :)
Heehee. Do you get a +5 to the DC because it's hard to believe, or -5 to the DC 'cause they want to believe you? XD
I use Bluff for clear attempts to seduce someone rapidly, and diplomacy is about slow courtship, intimidate is err also effective but unlikely to win you the long term affections of your "target".
Basically the rogue or bard using Bluff is doing the whole pickup artist routine (adapted for medieval times), it's about sealing the deal before the person has the ability to think through their actions.
Diplomacy is more related to the formal courtship that would be expected in most societies especially among the political and social elites. Want to impress a princess? Courtly graces expressed in Diplomacy is what you's want to use.
I generally disagree with any method that double penalizes low charisma. Invariably they are also going to have poor social skills other than maybe something like Intimidate for fighters so making them suffer an additional penalty isn't really fair.
I think really attractive individuals should probably invest in a feat selection that provides additional bonuses to social skill use if the target is sexually attracted to you (borrowed from M&M/DCA). Everyone else is some degree of either nondescript or mildly attractive. Even ugly people are generally hollywood ugly.
I do think there is a role for situational +2/-2 effects. Even the most uncharismatic fighter can probably seduce a partner if he's just saved the village from a Orc Raid, by a similar token if he's been crawling around in the sewers fighting Otyughs then he's going to take a big penalty.
Pity the poor CHA dump Ranger with favoured enemy: Otyughs, he never gets laid. Patrolling the sewers, protecting the people above, facing nasty foes with the ever-present threat of rot grubs. Forever alone ranger.
To Ashiel, the -2 cha example was one who didn't beef social skills. If you invest a lot into something, it will pay off, you can fight the attribute. Strangely a 10 cha can do okaaay, that I have seen. On no penalties, here we go!
Another problem is someone who just takes bluff, but not all situations call for bluff. :{
I use Bluff for clear attempts to seduce someone rapidly, and diplomacy is about slow courtship, intimidate is err also effective but unlikely to win you the long term affections of your "target".
Basically the rogue or bard using Bluff is doing the whole pickup artist routine (adapted for medieval times), it's about sealing the deal before the person has the ability to think through their actions.
Diplomacy is more related to the formal courtship that would be expected in most societies especially among the political and social elites. Want to impress a princess? Courtly graces expressed in Diplomacy is what you's want to use.
I generally disagree with any method that double penalizes low charisma. Invariably they are also going to have poor social skills other than maybe something like Intimidate for fighters so making them suffer an additional penalty isn't really fair.
I think really attractive individuals should probably invest in a feat selection that provides additional bonuses to social skill use if the target is sexually attracted to you (borrowed from M&M/DCA). Everyone else is some degree of either nondescript or mildly attractive. Even ugly people are generally hollywood ugly.
I do think there is a role for situational +2/-2 effects. Even the most uncharismatic fighter can probably seduce a partner if he's just saved the village from a Orc Raid, by a similar token if he's been crawling around in the sewers fighting Otyughs then he's going to take a big penalty.
Pity the poor CHA dump Ranger with favoured enemy: Otyughs, he never gets laid. Patrolling the sewers, protecting the people above, facing nasty foes with the ever-present threat of rot grubs. Forever alone ranger.
To Ashiel, the -2 cha example was one who didn't beef social skills. If you invest a lot into something, it will pay off, you can fight the attribute. Strangely a 10 cha can do okaaay, that I have seen. On no penalties, here we go!
Another problem is someone who just takes bluff,...
Perhaps because I too have IRL Charisma problems but have actively learned how to interact with people, flirt, and so forth through practice and reasoning that I prefer using Diplomacy over Bluff. To me Bluffing is lying. Diplomacy is knowing how to go project what you want in a way that it's received well. For example, through experience I know not to be too forward, pass my conversations, avoid tangental stuff, let the other person get a word in edgewise, understand that a little ice-breaking conversation helps, and understand the benefits of not getting overly excited and so forth.
I'm not a fan of dishonesty either. I'm usually quite honest (much to the mental damaging of some others when a Truth or Dare game comes up). I imagine the 7 Charisma loner ranger who hunts aberrations in the sewer could be quite gifted with the ladies. He hunts Otyoughs frequently so he probably is at least 4th level. If dealing with people has been an interest he's had 6 + Int modifier skill points plus any bonus points for being human or favored class. Guy is probably at least average. Then again, he could always find a nice low-Charisma lady who was rough around the edges too, or just get lucky sometime and let nature take its course (sheer statistical probability means that he might make some good impressions on somebody).
If folks who trudge around in sewage can have happy families and lots of kids, it seems like a guy (or gal) who works as a sewage worker slash action hero probably should be capable of taking a shower and going off to meet their love for dinner at a nice restaurant (especially since adventuring is pretty lucrative).
In short it works like this:
The guy with the low charisma is about to say _____, but then his skill ranks(ability to learn what not to say) kicks in, and he does not say the wrong thing. It helps avoid the (social gaffe) he would made had he not committed himself to being better with diplomacy.
edit:That is how it works in my games anyway. :)
Aw, my link was broken. I fixed it. XD
In short it works like this:
The guy with the low charisma is about to say _____, but then his skill ranks(ability to learn what not to say) kicks in, and he does not say the wrong thing. It helps avoid the (social gaffe) he would made had he not committed himself to being better with diplomacy.
edit:That is how it works in my games anyway. :)
Sounds pretty accurate in reality to. This from someone with low natural Charisma, but fairly decent social skills (I probably have a less than -2 Charisma penalty if I was to stat myself out, based on my older social capability vs present social capability).
Diplomacy: Relationship/Honest interest
Bluff: One-night stand/Hit & run
Intimidate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeMeDihwyrg
Diplomacy: Relationship/Honest interest
Bluff: One-night stand/Hit & run
Intimidate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeMeDihwyrg
I see Diplomacy as being for both normal and one-night stands, and Bluff being used to make one-night stands easier (by deceiving the other with false senses of security, etc). Kind of like what I said before, only with elaboration.
Bluff in one-night stands by feigning actual interest. If you want to convince someone to go for a one-night stand and be up-front about it, then it is Diplo, of course.
Exactly how, in any potential situation, is Bluff more appropriate than Diplomacy for trying to convince someone to do something?
You know how to tell a lie.
vs
You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.
Additionally, the Persuasive feat applies to Diplomacy and Intimidate, and has nothing to do with Bluff. Coincidence?
[Edit - Okay, so sure, "If you don't sleep with me, the world is going to end!" is a bluff, not diplomacy, but it's a triple-digit-roll that wins that bluff.]
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bluff in one-night stands by feigning actual interest. If you want to convince someone to go for a one-night stand and be up-front about it, then it is Diplo, of course.
Exactly how, in any potential situation, is Bluff more appropriate than Diplomacy for trying to convince someone to do something?
This is pretty much my feelings on the matter as well. Bluff doesn't get anyone to do something they might not normally do, but it does make them believe something that isn't true (within reason). Diplomacy is actually used to make a request and/or improve attitude.
Using the example of the female fighter trying to pick up the cutie male bartender, he was apprehensive about a one-night stand because he wasn't into that sort of thing, wanted something more meaningful in general, and didn't want to develop a reputation as someone who sleeps around, so the Diplomacy DC was increased heavily (ad-hoc of about +10 for DC 21).
Now what if she had successfully lied to the guy? Sure she had a -2 Charisma but what if he had a -3 Sense Motive and all things said and done she pulls a fast one on him. Maybe she spins him a yarn about looking for that special someone, etc, etc. Suddenly he is operating under the idea that this adventurous lady is really looking for a commitment but finds him irresistible. Ka-ching, the DC drops by 5 or so points. Hell, she doesn't even need to roll Diplomacy now, she could just take 10! Hah, sucker. :P
Of course when she sneaks out of the inn with her armor in her back so it doesn't clank around and flies the coop so she doesn't make good on all those sweet nothings he probably gives her the stink-eye next time he sees her, possibly warns others about her sweet but hollow words (making the Bluff DC harder next time), and even if he's not outright angry with her unless he's quite gullible probably won't fall for that one twice. (^-^);
EDIT: Actually that would pretty much represent that one person we all seem to know who's rather naive despite being burned multiple times always seems to fall for some guy or gal too quickly, being convinced he or she is the one, and then ending up crying about it later when they get dumped after their "soulmate" has moved on. You know the one. I think everyone knows the one. XD
Those bluffers are dirty rogues and scoundrels! :P
Exactly how, in any potential situation, is Bluff more appropriate than Diplomacy for trying to convince someone to do something?
You know how to tell a lie.vs
You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.Additionally, the Persuasive feat applies to Diplomacy and Intimidate, and has nothing to do with Bluff. Coincidence?
[Edit - Okay, so sure, "If you don't sleep with me, the world is going to end!" is a bluff, not diplomacy, but it's a triple-digit-roll that wins that bluff.]
False pretenses. I had a sorcerer who used bluff to get around all the time, and I do the same with my bard:
"I am an agent for the throne."
"You are surrounded, drop your weapons and come out quietly!"
"You're mad! I need that trinket to appease <named linnorm>, or his fury will destroy us all!"
etc.
So in this case: "Pardon me, lovely lass. I am Prince Azurai II of Korvosa, and my throat is parched after talking to <local lord> all day. Might you please show me a place to get a drink around here?"
Sure, there might be a penalty if the lie is hard to believe, but between my bard's Bluff +18 and Disguise +21, I think he can take most penalties in stride and still have a good chance for success.
Exactly how, in any potential situation, is Bluff more appropriate than Diplomacy for trying to convince someone to do something?
You know how to tell a lie.vs
You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.Additionally, the Persuasive feat applies to Diplomacy and Intimidate, and has nothing to do with Bluff. Coincidence?
[Edit - Okay, so sure, "If you don't sleep with me, the world is going to end!" is a bluff, not diplomacy, but it's a triple-digit-roll that wins that bluff.]
False pretenses. I had a sorcerer who used bluff to get around all the time, and I do the same with my bard:
"I am an agent for the throne."
"You are surrounded, drop your weapons and come out quietly!"
"You're mad! I need that trinket to appease <named linnorm>, or his fury will destroy us all!"
etc.
So in this case: "Pardon me, lovely lass. I am Prince Azurai II of Korvosa, and my throat is parched after talking to <local lord> all day. Might you please show me a place to get a drink around here?"
Sure, there might be a penalty if the lie is hard to believe, but between my bard's Bluff +18 and Disguise +21, I think he can take most penalties in stride and still have a good chance for success.
How does that help to convince them to have ye olde one-night stand with you? Not everyone would sleep with the president just 'cause he was the president (don't get me wrong, some would but...), you still gotta request it. Seems like if it's something they wouldn't ordinarily do then you'd need to test it. No freebies. :P
The DC might be much lower though. >.>
Exactly how, in any potential situation, is Bluff more appropriate than Diplomacy for trying to convince someone to do something?
You know how to tell a lie.vs
You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.Additionally, the Persuasive feat applies to Diplomacy and Intimidate, and has nothing to do with Bluff. Coincidence?
[Edit - Okay, so sure, "If you don't sleep with me, the world is going to end!" is a bluff, not diplomacy, but it's a triple-digit-roll that wins that bluff.]
False pretenses. I had a sorcerer who used bluff to get around all the time, and I do the same with my bard:
"I am an agent for the throne."
"You are surrounded, drop your weapons and come out quietly!"
"You're mad! I need that trinket to appease <named linnorm>, or his fury will destroy us all!"
etc.
So in this case: "Pardon me, lovely lass. I am Prince Azurai II of Korvosa, and my throat is parched after talking to <local lord> all day. Might you please show me a place to get a drink around here?"
Sure, there might be a penalty if the lie is hard to believe, but between my bard's Bluff +18 and Disguise +21, I think he can take most penalties in stride and still have a good chance for success.
How does that help to convince them to have ye olde one-night stand with you? Not everyone would sleep with the president just 'cause he was the president (don't get me wrong, some would but...), you still gotta request it. Seems like if it's something they wouldn't ordinarily do then you'd need to test it. No freebies. :P
The DC might be much lower though. >.>
More to provide incentive for the other side to take the initiative, really. If the other side is passive after the bait, Diplomacy comes along.
Basically running it kinda like how girls stuff their bra and put on make-up to attract men, without any real "effort" to persuade anyone to like the real person. Same deal with styled hair + spray-tan dudes that 'roids into aesthetics. Shallow appeal that attracts without social effort.
Anything that involves actually convincing someone on the fence, or on the other side of the fence, is obviously a diplo or a creative intimidate. Depending on your methods/alignment.
Basically running it kinda like how girls stuff their bra and put on make-up to attract men, without any real "effort" to persuade anyone to like the real person. Same deal with styled hair + spray-tan dudes that 'roids into aesthetics. Shallow appeal that attracts without social effort.
Hm, I knew there was a reason to put ranks in Disguise. :3
Anything that involves actually convincing someone on the fence, or on the other side of the fence, is obviously a diplo or a creative intimidate. Depending on your methods/alignment.
So that's why bad boys get the girls and then they complain about it later. :P
More to provide incentive for the other side to take the initiative, really. If the other side is passive after the bait, Diplomacy comes along.
Understood! I think I get it now. Seems less about seduction though. When I think seduction, I think of a coercion, often against someone's natural inclinations. I think think back to the golden rule of bluffing, in that bluffing doesn't make people do anything they wouldn't do, only changes the conditions by which they make those decisions.
To me a good bluff and disguise means you could convince a guy that you're actually his wife. A really super dooper Diplomacy check may convince him you don't have to be. Enter the evil temptress. :P
Also, just because I like this motivator it bares repeating. XD
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lying your way into being seduced yourself has zero predictable outcome though. If your goal is to sleep with someone, why would you shoot blind like that?
Besides, using that logic you could use any skill as a "seduction" skill. Roll athletics to pull of some crazy impressive stunts and hopefully that'll get him/her hot for you. Your vast knowledge of all things geographical makes them question their ability to resist you. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Srsly tho, it's a Diplo check.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lying your way into being seduced yourself has zero predictable outcome though. If your goal is to sleep with someone, why would you shoot blind like that?
Hormones and peer pressure.
I would allow the use of bluff and bump the DC up to correspond with the increased difficulty of the task. Ditto with any other skill someone wanted to use. Diplomacy is certainly the easiest skill to use, but in this scenario, it is not the only skill that could be used.
I would allow the use of bluff and bump the DC up to correspond with the increased difficulty of the task. Ditto with any other skill someone wanted to use. Diplomacy is certainly the easiest skill to use, but in this scenario, it is not the only skill that could be used.
I guess that explains this song (Profession {Farmer}).
I would allow the use of bluff and bump the DC up to correspond with the increased difficulty of the task. Ditto with any other skill someone wanted to use. Diplomacy is certainly the easiest skill to use, but in this scenario, it is not the only skill that could be used.I guess that explains this song (Profession {Farmer}).
In a farming community, profession (farmer) is a legitimate substitute for diplomacy. It wouldn't work on everybody, but there would be a fair number of girls born and raised in the country about that would find it perfectly acceptable.
I tend to be pretty flexible in terms of being able to use one social skill in place of another social skill within reason. There simply isn't enough skill points available to many classes to restrict them from social interaction because they didn't get diplomacy as well as bluff or intimidate.
As such I generally allow Intimidate focused characters to attempt to influence actions in a non-coercive manner basically using prowess to impress someone.
So while you could coerce the indifferent village priest into healing you you are likely going to burn some bridges. By taking a penalty to your check you can in effect use intimidate instead of diplomacy for a diplomacy action. It's less efficient and some percentage of targets are liable to view you as being excessively pushy but you can still get stuff done in a less brutal manner.
This gives less social characters some increased flexibility in social situations which is very important since a separated party is much more common in a social setting than a combat or exploration setting.
I like vuron's take on the subject.
I like vuron's take on the subject.
Seems pretty reasonable to me too. Just worried that it encourages overspecialization. It's really easy to really pump a skill like it was no big deal, and if someone told me my Fighters could use Intimidate (even at something big like a -5) in place of Diplomacy I'd probably be hard pressed to do otherwise. I mean I get +3 from class skill, and I can take a feat that gives me Strength to Intimidate (easily outclassing the penalty by that alone), then masterwork tool (like scary armor dressings), and well hell, I'd feel like a bard using versatile performance.
Kind of rains on versatile performance's parade as well. :(
But... you can already use Intimidate in place of Diplomacy. That's in the RAW.
Influence Attitude
You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.Success: If successful, the opponent will:
•give you information you desire
•take actions that do not endanger it
•offer other limited assistance
After the intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities.Fail: If you fail this check by 5 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.
Influence Attitude Action
Using Intimidate to change an opponent’s attitude requires 1 minute of conversation.
But... you can already use Intimidate in place of Diplomacy. That's in the RAW.
Influence Attitude
You can use Intimidate to force an opponent to act friendly toward you for 1d6 × 10 minutes with a successful check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target’s Hit Dice + the target’s Wisdom modifier.Success: If successful, the opponent will:
•give you information you desire
•take actions that do not endanger it
•offer other limited assistance
After the intimidate expires, the target treats you as unfriendly and may report you to local authorities.Fail: If you fail this check by 5 or more, the target attempts to deceive you or otherwise hinder your activities.
Influence Attitude Action
Using Intimidate to change an opponent’s attitude requires 1 minute of conversation.
I meant without upsetting them (IE, becoming unfriendly which is mentioned in the check as well). That's a natural part of using Intimidate, but after a short time then they're mad at you and may report you to the local authorities. That's not a one-night stand, that's something a little different. :P
If I could actually use Intimidate as Diplomacy with a -5 penalty, Intimidate would be nutty amazing. We could replace Intimidate with pretty much any other skill. I'm kind of curious how Use Magic Device can help pick up chicks...wait, I take that back...
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I meant without upsetting them (IE, becoming unfriendly which is mentioned in the check as well). That's a natural part of using Intimidate, but after a short time then they're mad at you and may report you to the local authorities. That's not a one-night stand, that's something a little different. :P
If I could actually use Intimidate as Diplomacy with a -5 penalty, Intimidate would be nutty amazing. We could replace Intimidate with pretty much any other skill. I'm kind of curious how Use Magic Device can help pick up chicks...wait, I take that back...
Hey baby, I've got a +10 skill check to use wands.
Hey baby, I've got a +10 skill check to use wands.I meant without upsetting them (IE, becoming unfriendly which is mentioned in the check as well). That's a natural part of using Intimidate, but after a short time then they're mad at you and may report you to the local authorities. That's not a one-night stand, that's something a little different. :P
If I could actually use Intimidate as Diplomacy with a -5 penalty, Intimidate would be nutty amazing. We could replace Intimidate with pretty much any other skill. I'm kind of curious how Use Magic Device can help pick up chicks...wait, I take that back...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey baby, I've got a +10 skill check to use wands.I meant without upsetting them (IE, becoming unfriendly which is mentioned in the check as well). That's a natural part of using Intimidate, but after a short time then they're mad at you and may report you to the local authorities. That's not a one-night stand, that's something a little different. :P
If I could actually use Intimidate as Diplomacy with a -5 penalty, Intimidate would be nutty amazing. We could replace Intimidate with pretty much any other skill. I'm kind of curious how Use Magic Device can help pick up chicks...wait, I take that back...
I'd rather refer to my Rod of Wonder.
I'd rather refer to my Rod of Wonder.Hey baby, I've got a +10 skill check to use wands.I meant without upsetting them (IE, becoming unfriendly which is mentioned in the check as well). That's a natural part of using Intimidate, but after a short time then they're mad at you and may report you to the local authorities. That's not a one-night stand, that's something a little different. :P
If I could actually use Intimidate as Diplomacy with a -5 penalty, Intimidate would be nutty amazing. We could replace Intimidate with pretty much any other skill. I'm kind of curious how Use Magic Device can help pick up chicks...wait, I take that back...
The funny things that can be taken out of context in D&D.
Teenagers: "I'll show you my rod of wonder if you'll show me your portable hole."
Mother passing by: O.O
|
I meant without upsetting them (IE, becoming unfriendly which is mentioned in the check as well).
So to be clear, it isn't just that you want to use the skills for things beyond the scope of what the skill says it does, but you also want to be able ignore parts of the skill you find inconvenient.
This isn't a house rule how exactly?