Male Human Monk 5
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +
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Defense
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AC 20 (24 with Mage Armor), touch 20, flat-footed 13 (17 with Mage Armor)
hp 41 (5 HD)
Fort +7, Ref +11, Will +6; +2 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 40 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +5 (1d8+2/x2)
Ranged +1 Shuriken +10*(+11) (1d2+5(+6)/x2) 10ft
Flurry +1 Shuriken +10*(+11)/+10*(+11) (1d2+5(+6)/x2) 10ft
*Deadly Aim (-1 attack, +2 damage)
()Point Blank Shot (+1 attack, +1 damage within 30ft)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 25
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Stunning Fist(5/Day DC 13), Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Deadly Aim, Weapon Focus (Shuriken)
Skills: Acrobatics +12 (+16 jumping), Climb +6, Escape Artist +14, Knowledge (Religion) +3, Perception +9, Stealth +13, Swim +6,
Languages: Common
SQ: AC Bonus +1, Fast Movement (+10'), High Jump, Ki Defense, Ki Pool(3 points), Maneuver Training, Purity of Body, Slow Fall 20', Still Mind, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue), Unarmed Strike (1d8)
Gear: (50) +1 Shuriken, Ring of Protection(+1), Belt of Incredible Dexterity(+2), Cloak of Resistance(+1), (x5) Potion of Mage Armor(CL 1st), Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds(CL 3rd),
55 HP (I have 41)
18 AC (I have a 20. 24 for an hour if i drank a Potion of Mage Armor.)
High Attack 10 (+10 check)
Average Damage High 20/Low 15 (I average 14 damage with Flurry 21 with Ki point)
Primary Ability DC 15 (DC 13 for Stunning Fist but i'm not focused on it)
Good Save 8 (check i got a +11 ref )
Bad Saves 3 (My lowest, will, is still +6)
This one was for fun.
My answer is 'what are those?' :)
Elemental gems are one of the many minor wondrous items found in the core rules, alongside things such as Elixirs of Hiding, Feather Tokens, Dusts, Pearls, and so forth. My point, if a bit indirect, is that these things exist even if we don't always see them in use. It's not that they aren't available, they just aren't used by everybody. Interestingly, these are all things which are seen frequently in my groups' games (as are inherent modifiers around 13th+ level) because we appreciate them, know of them, and are willing to use them.
We have lots of very nice things in D&D for us to use. For example, the cheap elixir of hiding is a mere 250 gp market price. Only 125 gp to craft yourself (can be done at 3rd level even, in 1 day). For 1 hour (easily any entire adventure in a dungeon, urban, or otherwise indoor environment) you get a +10 competence bonus to Stealth checks. That's pretty awesome, but I see people all the time who have never seen or heard of these and they've been in the core rules since 3E debuted in 2000.
Many people or groups get into a feel for what they have done before and then return to do that same thing next time. Someone discovers something new (drop a tree token here, quaff an elixir there) and then those become part of the norm. These items don't break the game, even though they are absolutely incredible for what they can do and the levels they can do them at (seriously +10 to a skill for 1 hour is pretty damn epic for an item that costs less than a 2nd level potion). Moreso even than a +5 inherent modifier to an ability (which favors martials by the way, because casters are going to get theirs, but martials -- especially monks -- benefit for a wide assortment more).
Just because they might be little known doesn't mean they don't exist or are somehow unfair or invalid. These things aren't new by any means.
Oh, I understand now, Monks are good because eleventh-level Wizards give them +5 to everything for free and any group that doesn't do that is just stupid newbies who refuse to read the rules or leave their comfort zone? All complaints withdrawn, the game is perfect now.
a lot of people on these boards whose posts i read don't really use frequent consumables the way Ashiel does. Ashiel's advice, though it does involve a few exploits, is actually capable of expanding an adventurer's lifespan several levels.
the damage increase from holding a 2handed weapon is at best, +11 per swing at 20th level, if you can get both a 30 STR and a 20 BAB with power attack. while at, 10thish, the damage boost is +5ish per swing. the extra damage isn't really worth it compared to a magical shield after all. unless you want reach.
Just because they might be little known doesn't mean they don't exist or are somehow unfair or invalid. These things aren't new by any means.Okay.
What does this have to do with monks?
It has to do with discussing monks, you see. For the record, when discussing class builds and what not, I do indeed assume that +5 inherent modifiers are available by 20th level for little investment. Either via spellcasting services (RAW you can find casters willing to shell out 6th level spells in a large city as spellcasting services), or your party helping you (wizards are useful out of combat), or via questing (striking a deal with someone who has the power to do so).
I also assume 15 point buy whenever possible because that too is standard by which I base my points, arguments, and encounters on (though with encounters the difference between 15 PB and 20 to 25 is pretty negligible at higher levels). My group prefers 15 PB 'cause we're kind of low-power minded like that. :)
When I was talking about the Paladin, I was assuming he had the same benefits as the monk, or the fighter, or the ranger, or the rogue. Not that he was getting special treatment. The monk probably benefits from getting their inherent modifiers moreso than most classes because the less MAD you are the less the modifiers help you. Monks are MAD in the extreme, and thus are assisted heavily by inherent modifiers to keep them in the game. Without them, they are -- in my opinion -- a waste of space (I simply do not believe that they can meaningfully contribute at even a fair rate to the kinds of things that parties must overcome at the levels where inherent modifiers are easily available; an opinion that is backed by much experience with monks and running the math on the subject frequently).
Paladins are the best tanks in the game. They can hit ACs more or less identical to Fighters, are immune to many bad effects, and have hands down the best saving thows in the game. Their lay on hands can swift-heal themselves for more HP than all the Constitution in the world would provide them, and they can remove status ailments from themselves without wasting their own actions or needing aid from the party. While doing so they also have out of combat usefulness, the ability to restore ability damage done to their allies, and are very capable martial characters.
My problem with the monk is that there quite literally is nothing they are good at. People try to play to them and find something, a niche, that they are good at or excel at, but more often than not (in fact always really) that niche is filled by another class who isn't completely handicapped, doing that niche better and often bringing more options to the party.
For example. If you need a great tank, Paladin followed by Ranger and Barbarian (or possibly Barbarian then Ranger). If you need skills or support, Bards have your back. If you need supernatural support, Wizards and Clerics. Half of these arguments for being pro-monk always end up trying the following things.
1) Monks are good tanks (they aren't).
2) Monks are good damagers (they aren't).
3) Monks are good strikers (as in deep strike pest removal) (they aren't).
In all cases, the best that a monk can do is often a mediocre performance compared to another class that does it, and the other class is often not crippled in every other area to do so as monks are. I've shown this with Rangers vs Monk in the past. I've shown it with Paladins. Bards. So on, and so forth. The sad part is I've rarely ever done anything except list a handful of generic magic items, or masterwork gear, or a simple 15 point buy to do it. Rarely do I have to even spend feats on the comparison character for them to outpace the monk at quite literally anything that the monk wants to do (and often do so merely by being what they are with no specialization at all).
Someone inevitably comes and blathers about Stunning Fist for a few pages, then gets shot down with the abysmal chances of it landing, the save being failed, and that's before you get to situations where your foe is just outright immune to stunning (a rather large set of enemies that you can face are immune to stunning, including all constructs, elementals, plants, oozes, and undead). Such is the nature of one-trick ponies. I hate one trick ponies. If you have to declare one trick your holy grail, then your class fails and fails hard.
What does this have to do with monks?
I merely was clearing up that I'm being more than fair to monks, giving no one any particular benefits over someone else, assuming everyone has access to the same types of resources, and attempting to dispel any misconceptions. If a Paladin can get a 30 Strength and 26 Charisma at 20th level, then there's no reason a Monk cannot do the same with some stats of his choice, or a Rogue, or a Fighter. The catch is that in any case the monk is still always behind. I was assuming the same capability when I was comparing the monk's saves vs the Paladin. The very same monk who had only a 5% chance to save after a debuff-bombing.
He has a point Ciretose. I looked as this thread as the amusing step child thread of the other one.
And honestly, Ashiel has a point. Well, she ignored fighters in the wall of text, but that is ok. It isn't a fighter thread lol.
Now, she didn't really throw out any viable solutions, but that is ok to, like I said, step child thread anyway lol.
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a lot of people on these boards whose posts i read don't really use frequent consumables the way Ashiel does. Ashiel's advice, though it does involve a few exploits, is actually capable of expanding an adventurer's lifespan several levels.
I'll take this as a compliment (thank you by the way) and a declaration that adventuring is hard (and I agree :P).
You're very right that many people don't use consumables. I've seen many, many, maaaany players who only thought of potions or oils as Diablo-style health containers; who have never heard of an Elixir of Hiding; who have never used an oil of magic weapon. Players who spend all their money trying to get the next +1 on their magic weapon at the cost of everything else, often at the actual detriment to their chances of survival (IMHO a simple smokestick can get you out of more trouble than another +1 on your sword). When joining a game, I even consider HOW we are going to be getting items (in the core game you're only really guaranteed up to a +2 weapon, +3 armor/shield, +4 resistance/stat items, and +2 deflection/natural bonuses, and I would be okay with that). I'm the sort of person that considers a +5 sword at 20th level plenty and a +10 sword excessive and wasteful. I'd rather have an arsenal of +2 weapons instead of a single +3 weapon. I'm the sort who's entirely happy swinging a masterwork sword around around until 6th level (unless I happen to find a better one) and making do with an oil or two if I need to bypass damage reduction (a +1 weapon is +2,000 gp, an oil is 50 gp). I'm the sort of person who expects his enemies to not be tools and to use items they have available to them ("The demon has a +23 Use Magic Device skill but is carry 23,000 gp worth of gems on him for no apparent reason? Lame").
But ultimate what my point is, and remains to be, is that in conversations like these we're talking about what is available then these things, these options, are all available by RAW in the core rules. It's not a matter of whose group uses what. Just because this group or that group has never used X doesn't mean it's not there. Or that it's somehow cheesy, or unfair, or whatever.
Let me spin this another way. Imagine for a moment that someone comes to the boards and says "wizards suck and can't do anything", so we come in and say "wizards learn 2 spells per level for free *cites core source*, begin with a spellbook with lots more spells *cites core source*, can spend a specified amount of money to learn spells from wizards in town *cites core source*, can scribe scrolls into their spellbooks *cites core source*, can gank enemy spellbooks *cites core source*, gets amazing usage out of pearls of power *cites core source*, can use cool book powers like a book of harms *cites splat source*, can craft magic items really well *cites core source* even while adventuring *cites core source*, can enhance their arcane bond without the required feats *cites core source*, can add sentience to their arcane bond and give it abilities it can use itself *cites core source*, can share spells with other wizards in the party *cites core source*..." and so on and so forth.
Then the person comes back and says "Well my group has never played with pearls of power, doesn't allow crafting items, we didn't know that wizards got 2 spells each level, thought wizards had to buy their first spellbook and spells to go into it, the GM doesn't allow wizards to share spells with townie wizards, never has any scrolls or spellbooks in the game as treasures, doesn't allow intelligent items, and strikes arcane bonds with bolts of lightning randomly", it doesn't mean that suddenly all those things disappear. It's just that they are not common in their tiny world called their group. In a conversation like this however, we have to lay everything on the table.
He has a point Ciretose. I looked as this thread as the amusing step child thread of the other one.
And honestly, Ashiel has a point. Well, she ignored fighters in the wall of text, but that is ok. It isn't a fighter thread lol.
Now, she didn't really throw out any viable solutions, but that is ok to, like I said, step child thread anyway lol.
I've thrown out enough solutions for monks in the past. I even rebuilt them for use in my games and discussed fixing them many times. As for Fighters, I didn't mention them because I've mentioned them in that other thread today (talking about Fighters vs Tarrasque), and I don't really care much for Fighters (because I think their peers the Ranger and Paladin bring more to a party).
My ideal group if someone was to ask is Ranger or Paladin + Bard + Wizard + Cleric (or Druid).
a lot of people on these boards whose posts i read don't really use frequent consumables the way Ashiel does. Ashiel's advice, though it does involve a few exploits, is actually capable of expanding an adventurer's lifespan several levels.I'll take this as a compliment (thank you by the way) and a declaration that adventuring is hard (and I agree :P).
You're very right that many people don't use consumables. I've seen many, many, maaaany players who only thought of potions or oils as Diablo-style health containers; who have never heard of an Elixir of Hiding; who have never used an oil of magic weapon. Players who spend all their money trying to get the next +1 on their magic weapon at the cost of everything else, often at the actual detriment to their chances of survival (IMHO a simple smokestick can get you out of more trouble than another +1 on your sword). When joining a game, I even consider HOW we are going to be getting items (in the core game you're only really guaranteed up to a +2 weapon, +3 armor/shield, +4 resistance/stat items, and +2 deflection/natural bonuses, and I would be okay with that). I'm the sort of person that considers a +5 sword at 20th level plenty and a +10 sword excessive and wasteful. I'd rather have an arsenal of +2 weapons instead of a single +3 weapon. I'm the sort who's entirely happy swinging a masterwork sword around around until 6th level (unless I happen to find a better one) and making do with an oil or two if I need to bypass damage reduction (a +1 weapon is +2,000 gp, an oil is 50 gp). I'm the sort of person who expects his enemies to not be tools and to use items they have available to them ("The demon has a +23 Use Magic Device skill but is carry 23,000 gp worth of gems on him for no apparent reason? Lame").
But ultimate what my point is, and remains to be, is that in conversations like these we're talking about what is available then these things, these options, are all available by RAW in the core rules. It's not a...
Well put =)
As to the fighter bit...personally, I think that for general mayhem and such, fighters do the job and bring things equally to the table as a ranger or paladin, but, and this is a big but, that varies based on the game. A campaign where almost every enemy is the same type/subtype/favored enemy, sure, the same for the paladin, lots of evil to be smitten and all, yep. But not all games go that way, and even in those game a fighter can hold his own. Outside combat, their utility tends to be limited by player intelligence. Like you said earlier, consumables and other gear that folks don't always think about can increase a fighters utility.
But, I'll admit, one this isn't a fighter thread, and two, it is a taste thing. Simple point of fact, fighters, barbarians, rangers and paladins all fufill the hit point sponge/tank/melee/wall that walks role adequately.
My ideal group if someone was to ask is Ranger or Paladin + Bard + Wizard + Cleric (or Druid).
my ideal group too. though i would prefer that the bard and cleric can also hold their own in combat.
i am willing to settle for sorcerers or oracles if they have access to either or both of the following
1. Human Alternate Favored Class Bonus
2. Paragon Surge Spell
and i might settle for a well built rogue/wizard/arcane trickster in place of a bard if they have decent school powers and spell selection.
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Well put =)
Thank you sir.
As to the fighter bit...personally, I think that for general mayhem and such, fighters do the job and bring things equally to the table as a ranger or paladin, but, and this is a big but, that varies based on the game. A campaign where almost every enemy is the same type/subtype/favored enemy, sure, the same for the paladin, lots of evil to be smitten and all, yep. But not all games go that way, and even in those game a fighter can hold his own. Outside combat, their utility tends to be limited by player intelligence. Like you said earlier, consumables and other gear that folks don't always think about can increase a fighters utility.
I agree. I'm the first one to swear that Fighters are very good at what they do (relentlessly kill things), and I prefer Fighters for dual-wielding or archery builds (their static +8 to hit and +10 to damage is huge in styles). I see the Fighter as something of an excellent 5th wheel, because he's the guy that you have that can really deliver the pain when needed, but he's also not missed much in a well balanced party (whereas I feel like an overall party gets more out of a good Paladin or Ranger who have similar capabilities to the Fighter and - IMHO - better defenses).
I also agree that Fighters are a class that demand good system mastery to excel. Knowing which magic items to use to shore up your defenses, recognizing that you get plenty of hit and damage from your class features so go for versatility in your items instead of the next +1, and so forth. Realizing that purchasing a +1 ghost touch net is way more useful to you than another +1 on your favorite weapon when you've already got +4/+5 to hit and damage already.
But, I'll admit, one this isn't a fighter thread, and two, it is a taste thing. Simple point of fact, fighters, barbarians, rangers and paladins all fufill the hit point sponge/tank/melee/wall that walks role adequately.
Agreed. ^-^
my ideal group too. though i would prefer that the bard and cleric can also hold their own in combat.
i am willing to settle for sorcerers or oracles if they have access to either or both of the following
1. Human Alternate Favored Class Bonus
2. Paragon Surge Spell
and i might settle for a well built rogue/wizard/arcane trickster in place of a bard if they have decent school powers and spell selection.
Agreed on most all counts. Sorcerers get some pretty fierce homebrew buffs in my games (they get spells at the same rate as wizards and get their bloodline spells as soon as they would be able to cast them, and have the option to trade their bloodlines for cleric domains if desired).
As for bards and clerics holding their own in combat, they can definitely do that. Clerics get really incredible buffs, and bards are no slouch either. Inspire Courage is incredibly good. The last bard I built for a comparison of things was a bard with a short sword, a locked gauntlet, who completely crushed a monk in melee combat (it was actually on OpenRPG where this guy was shooting his mouth off about monks, and some people asked him to prove it, so I'll spoiler the story below).
So a friend of mine who likes playing Fighters said he'd take him up on that, since he'd never seen it before. So my friend throws together a 10th level fighter (vs his 10th level monk). My friend let the monk pound on him for 4 rounds strait without retaliating, and then let the monk disarm him. He then two-shot the monk with his bare hands, knocking the monk out cold. Fighter crushed the monk -- unarmed -- while intentionally letting the monk beat on him for several rounds. The monk did about 20% of the Fighter's HP in damage.
So then the guy backtracks and says he never said fighters weren't good, and that monks aren't really made to deal with fighter types, but instead are supposed to be good at dealing with caster sorts and what-not. So I told him I'd throw together a bard if he wanted. He was down for it, so about 20 minutes later I had my bard ready. She was a "generic adventuring bard". Used a short sword (not optimal but I liked it) in a locked gauntlet with her other hand for spellcasting an general uses. She proceeded to slap the monk down. When she cast improved invisibility the monk was helpless against her (lose of dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC put him into auto-hit territory). He then complained it was because improved invisibility is broken and not fair. To drive home the point, I had the bard spend a round to dismiss her own invisibility and say "C'mon monkey boy, you got more than that, right!?". The result was the monk diving into melee with the bard and getting royally stomped. Had it been another game the referee would have said "flawless victory" as the monk couldn't hit her AC and she tore him apart with her short sword, then healed him back from unconsciousness and dared him to attack again.
So then he said "well bards aren't casters". With a bit of "wtf" written on my face, I said "from what I've seen you can't fight a caster either. You couldn't even fight a bard because she used some magic, against an equal level caster you're a dead man". He said prove it. I told him I didn't have time to write a full caster up, but that I had a 7th level NPC for one of my games already written up that I would use (3 levels lower than his monk) and I would be money that if the mage won the initiative check, the monk would die.
So the guy said "Fine, then I will let the mage go first. There's nothing that he can do to me anyway". So the fight commenced. Two rounds later he forfeited and exclaimed that there was no way for him to win vs the encounter with the mage using invisibility, flying, and slapping him with magic missiles and such. Even then, he had surprisingly bad odds when it came to resisting this NPC mage's 15 point buy NPC wealth using NPC's spells, and had around a 30% chance to be permanently blinded with the mage spamming blindness/deafness.
The moral of the story is...monks suck, and don't shoot your mouth off before knowing the facts. :P
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monks are such weaklings, to think that the monk who lost to a fighter, a bard, and a caster, all lower leveled and less geared means something about the class. it is why i would prefer to use Ashiels homebrewed monk conversion, too bad i don't know a DM in person whom would allow it.
monks are such weaklings, to think that the monk who lost to a fighter, a bard, and a caster, all lower leveled and less geared means something about the class. it is why i would prefer to use Ashiels homebrewed monk conversion, too bad i don't know a DM in person whom would allow it.
Well to be fair, the fighter and bard were PCs. The mage was a 7th level NPC. Otherwise, yes, I agree. These were very simple encounters the monk theoretically should have rocked at (unarmed fighting vs a disarmed opponent, fighting a mobile caster who uses a light weapon and some personal buffs, and a CR 6 NPC who could be considered mook-level in a CR 10 encounter).
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Monks are such weaklings, to think that the monk who lost to a fighter, a bard, and a caster, all lower leveled and less geared means something about the class. It is why I would prefer to use Ashiels homebrewed monk conversion, too bad I don't know a DM in person whom would allow it.
May I once again take a turn to mock the idiotic DMs around me who are too scared to touch any homebrew thing ever?
Because you just reminded me of them in their multitude, and I still feel a ridiculous amount of hate towards such ignorant morons taking the DM seat.
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I enjoy Ashiel's writings. I will have to look that monk later though.
Ashiel...I gotta ask...was that monk the guy brought even slightly optimized?
Ashiel...I gotta ask...was that monk the guy brought even slightly optimized?
He sure thought he was optimized. In my opinion, he was worthless, going back to much the same problems I mentioned before. No variation, emphasized dex and such, had a cruddy AC despite trying to build defensively and for maneuvers, and so forth. It's part of the reason I didn't try to be competitive (not optimizing to the hilt only helps to prove my point after all).
Of course, IMHO, he thought he was really great at building monks and characters. He claimed that his monks dominated in the games he had played in. He was SURE that his AC was awesome. He was SURE that his saves were amazing. He was SURE that he could dismantle warriors with ease. He was SURE stunning fist was amazing. He was using 25 point buy even. The end result however was a monk that couldn't hit effectively, had mediocre AC (seriously my bard had better AC), and couldn't deal damage, and as a side-effect wasn't very useful with combat maneuvers either.
If there's something to be taken away from this I think it is the following.
1) Working in one game does not mean it works in all or even most.
2) It's very easy to see that some people have no real idea as to how things really stack up because they've never seen them compared.
3) It's easy to see things you're not familiar with an call them broken and unfair (as he did with invisibility being a "dirty trick").
However, I give him props because instead of getting angry, he noted that "I think I was wrong. Monks really do have difficulties. I tried to beat martials, gishes, and casters, and got rolled by all of them" shows that he was willing to re-evaluate his opinion based on evidence (a very good trait in a sentient being) and decided to roll a new monk. :P
** spoiler omitted **
55 HP (I have 41)
18 AC (I have a 20. 24 for an hour if i drank a Potion of Mage Armor.)
High Attack 10 (+10 check)
Average Damage High 20/Low 15 (I average 14 damage with Flurry 21 with Ki point)
Primary Ability DC 15 (DC 13 for Stunning Fist but i'm not focused on it)
Good Save 8 (check i got a +11 ref )
Bad Saves 3 (My lowest, will, is still +6)This one was for fun.
Not bad. But again, he suffers the monk problem of low damage output now the AC is up a bit.
So, returning to an early topic, where are the level 13 monk builds?
Here's one I prepared earlier:
Male Human (Vudrani) Monk 13
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 34, touch 30, flat-footed 25 (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 81 (13d8+13)
Fort +12, Ref +19, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; SR 23
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee +1 Mithral Kama +18/+13 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham +18/+13 (1d6+1/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+14 (FoB +21/+21/+16/+16/+11) (2d6+9/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +18/+13 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken +18/+13 (1d2+1/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 10/12, Dex 20/26, Con 10/12, Int 14, Wis 16/20, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+23 Grappling, +23 Tripping); CMD 40 (42 vs. Grapple, 42 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Traits Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device), Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb)
Skills Acrobatics +24, Appraise +3, Climb +20, Disable Device +32, Escape Artist +13, Heal +6, Intimidate +3, Knowledge
(dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +21, Ride +12, Sense Motive +21, Sleight of Hand +13, Stealth +24, Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +8, Astrolabe, Earplugs, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Map Maker's Kit, Purity of Body, Ram, portable, Slow Fall 60', Smoked Goggles, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Vow of Truth (+2 Ki), Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, +1 Mithral Kama, Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken (50), Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham; Other Gear Acid Flask (3), Agile Amulet (AoMF +2, agile), Alchemist's Fire Flask (3), Alkali Flask (3), Astrolabe, Bedroll, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +6, Bladeguard, Blanket, winter, Bracers of Armor, +4, Caltrops (2), Chalk, 1 piece, Climber's kit, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Crowbar, Earplugs, Everburning torch, Fishhook, Flint and steel, Goggles of Minute Seeing, Grappling hook, Hammer, Handy Haversack (67 @ 129.64 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Heatstone, Holy Water Flask (3), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ioun Stone, Pale Blue Rhomboid, Ioun Stone, Pink Rhomboid, Liquid Ice (3), Map Maker's Kit, Mirror, small steel, Oil of Bless Weapon (2), Piton (10), Pole, 10-foot, Pot, iron, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Fly, Potion of Invisibility, Potion of Remove Curse, Potion of Resist Acid 10, Potion of Resist Fire 10, Powder (2), Ram, portable, Rations, trail (per day) (3), Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.) (2), Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Sewing needle, Smoked Goggles, Spade or shovel, Spyglass, Sunrod (3), Tanglefoot bag (3), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Twine (50'), Whetstone
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Special Abilities
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Astrolabe +2 navigation
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) You may make up to 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex) +13 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Map Maker's Kit +2 Circumstance for Survival to avoid becoming lost.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Ram, portable +2 to STR checks to break open a door, and allows a second helper (+2).
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Smoked Goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Spell Resistance (23) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb) Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.
Icandu is designed to be both a scout and a warrior, so he can (just about) fill that role in a conventional party.
HP 180 (81, Icandu is really weak in hp)
AC 28 (34, 38 with ki, Icandu is well ahead here)
High/Low Attack +22 (+21 with flurry, Icandu is not far off this)
High/Low Average Damage 60/45 (80, which is very high but is spread over a lot of attacks which will reduce effectiveness a lot)
Primary Ability DC 21 (check stunning fist at 21)
Good/Poor Save 16/12 (check, low is +12, high is +19)
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** spoiler omitted **
55 HP (I have 41)
18 AC (I have a 20. 24 for an hour if i drank a Potion of Mage Armor.)
High Attack 10 (+10 check)
Average Damage High 20/Low 15 (I average 14 damage with Flurry 21 with Ki point)
Primary Ability DC 15 (DC 13 for Stunning Fist but i'm not focused on it)
Good Save 8 (check i got a +11 ref )
Bad Saves 3 (My lowest, will, is still +6)This one was for fun.
Not bad. But again, he suffers the monk problem of low damage output now the AC is up a bit.
So, returning to an early topic, where are the level 13 monk builds?Here's one I prepared earlier:
** spoiler omitted **...
Why look, an on topic post that isn't a wall of text.
Odd.
The main problem with this build is that it comes from someone one the "monk is too weak" side.
I would like to see less walls and walls of off topic "look at me" and instead see some builds from the "Monk is fine" side.
So far, Brain in a Jar is the only one who has stepped up. I commend Brain, I think Brain did the best that could be done with the tools at hand, and I think Brain's monk fell short.
This is the point, and the problem.
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a lot of people on these boards whose posts i read don't really use frequent consumables the way Ashiel does.
This is because a lot of people on these boards run long campaigns starting at first level where when you "consume" a consumable, it stops existing the next time you play. And then you don't have them, and well...different game.
Now if you run theorycraft one off stuff that allows partial wands to get around WBL, it is a very, very different game.
Monks actually can benefit from those types of games, consumables can ability scores up in the short term and many of their inherent bonuses stack.
The problem I find in real games is that the gear that you may think you have available may not be, and WBL may not actually measure up...and that's when the monk suffers because is actually MORE equipment dependent than other classes - and on rarer equipment.
Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
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The problem I find in real games is that the gear that you may think you have available may not be, and WBL may not actually measure up...and that's when the monk suffers because is actually MORE equipment dependent than other classes - and on rarer equipment.
Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
100%. I tend to discount any argument that depends on corner cases and consumables.
I think Brain's builds were good builds, build legitimately. However they didn't meet the criteria AND they needed consumables.
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And boom goes the wall of text derail.
Way to go TOZ...
You say that like there were tracks to begin with.
Or as if your own constant complaints about Ashiel's presence were much better on topic.
You doubled the number of off-topic posts by putting a complaint after each one she made =P
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100%. I tend to discount any argument that depends on corner cases and consumables.
I think Brain's builds were good builds, build legitimately. However they didn't meet the criteria AND they needed consumables.
They were very solid builds, but they underlined the class's weaknesses more perfectly than we ever could.
With most classes you can get a good balance of attack, damage, Ac and abilities, but for the monk it's all in one or two baskets to make them passable, and nothing in the others.
The problem I find in real games is that the gear that you may think you have available may not be, and WBL may not actually measure up...and that's when the monk suffers because is actually MORE equipment dependent than other classes - and on rarer equipment.
Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
100%. I tend to discount any argument that depends on corner cases and consumables.
I think Brain's builds were good builds, build legitimately. However they didn't meet the criteria AND they needed consumables.
Yeah when limited to Core i struggle a bit when building a Monk.
Why does using consumables matter?
Also i will be posting a 13th build later today.
The problem I find in real games is that the gear that you may think you have available may not be, and WBL may not actually measure up...and that's when the monk suffers because is actually MORE equipment dependent than other classes - and on rarer equipment.
Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
100%. I tend to discount any argument that depends on corner cases and consumables.
I think Brain's builds were good builds, build legitimately. However they didn't meet the criteria AND they needed consumables.
Yeah when limited to Core i struggle a bit when building a Monk.
Why does using consumables matter?
Also i will be posting a 13th build later today.
Why does using consumables matter? In an actual game, it doesn't really. Most consumables are cheap enough a crafter can make one every day if they have the feat. They are also cheap enough all but the most hole in the wall places should have a couple at least for sale.
On the boards however, things tend to get judged by static 24/7 bonuses. Anything with limited duration or that qualifies as an expendable resource tends to get discounted if they are what makes a build work. Unless your talking about archers, who I suppose are the exception because they rely on a consumable (arrows) but are assumed to carry enough to keep themselves in business....oh wait...
OK, so I have no idea why people have issues with consumables, especially cheap ones.
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The problem I find in real games is that the gear that you may think you have available may not be, and WBL may not actually measure up...and that's when the monk suffers because is actually MORE equipment dependent than other classes - and on rarer equipment.
Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
100%. I tend to discount any argument that depends on corner cases and consumables.
I think Brain's builds were good builds, build legitimately. However they didn't meet the criteria AND they needed consumables.
Yeah when limited to Core i struggle a bit when building a Monk.
Why does using consumables matter?
Also i will be posting a 13th build later today.
Why does using consumables matter? In an actual game, it doesn't really. Most consumables are cheap enough a crafter can make one every day if they have the feat. They are also cheap enough all but the most hole in the wall places should have a couple at least for sale.
On the boards however, things tend to get judged by static 24/7 bonuses. Anything with limited duration or that qualifies as an expendable resource tends to get discounted if they are what makes a build work. Unless your talking about archers, who I suppose are the exception because they rely on a consumable (arrows) but are assumed to carry enough to keep themselves in business....oh wait...
OK, so I have no idea why people have issues with consumables, especially cheap ones.
For the most part it seems folks are trying to compare what a monk can do vs. what a member of another class of the same level can do for various roles. Consumables typically can be applied for anyone else filling that role and so inflate the monk's numbers when in fact they would also inflate the competition's numbers. This differs from self-buffs and class abilities which are granted specifically due to having levels in the given class or feats which might be granted due to bonus feats (perhaps eliminating prerequisites).
For example: a monk can use an potion to enlarge themselves for combat. This same buff, however, could be used by a fighter/ranger/paladin/barbarian to accomplish the same task and gain the same buffs. It's a wash and just makes all the numbers bigger without affecting the relative difference.
On the flip side, using a ki point to gain an additional max-BAB attack represents a class specific ability and could reasonably be expected to come into play in a comparison. The fact it is a limited resource would need to be taken into consideration but it is something relatively unique to the monk in this case.
Adding consumables for a class/build comparison just increases the noise.
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Yeah when limited to Core i struggle a bit when building a Monk.
I would suggest alternates using the APG and UC.
Why does using consumables matter?
A couple of reasons. One of which is that consumables are only useful as long as you have access to a steady supply of them. What if equipment is limited, and there are no crafters in the party? What if you are a long way from a city for extended periods, and can use only what you find?
Also, one dispel magic and the buff is gone. Consumables often use low caster levels, so they are easy to de-buff.
Also i will be posting a 13th build later today.
I look forward to seeing it.
For the most part it seems folks are trying to compare what a monk can do vs. what a member of another class of the same level can do for various roles. Consumables typically can be applied for anyone else filling that role and so inflate the monk's numbers when in fact they would also inflate the competition's numbers. This differs from self-buffs and class abilities which are granted specifically due to having levels in the given class or feats which might be granted due to bonus...The problem I find in real games is that the gear that you may think you have available may not be, and WBL may not actually measure up...and that's when the monk suffers because is actually MORE equipment dependent than other classes - and on rarer equipment.
Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
100%. I tend to discount any argument that depends on corner cases and consumables.
I think Brain's builds were good builds, build legitimately. However they didn't meet the criteria AND they needed consumables.
Yeah when limited to Core i struggle a bit when building a Monk.
Why does using consumables matter?
Also i will be posting a 13th build later today.
Why does using consumables matter? In an actual game, it doesn't really. Most consumables are cheap enough a crafter can make one every day if they have the feat. They are also cheap enough all but the most hole in the wall places should have a couple at least for sale.
On the boards however, things tend to get judged by static 24/7 bonuses. Anything with limited duration or that qualifies as an expendable resource tends to get discounted if they are what makes a build work. Unless your talking about archers, who I suppose are the exception because they rely on a consumable (arrows) but are assumed to carry enough to keep themselves in business....oh wait...
OK, so I have no idea why people have issues with consumables, especially cheap ones.
Yes, but look at what consumable we are talking about. He used a potion of mage armor. I don't see the fighter quaffing one of those. I get that in some cases, yes, it is just inflating numbers because everyone can/does have access. But if it something that is just good sense to use, and is rather specific or not of benefit to everyone, then it shouldn't be discounted. And even with that, does it matter if I am using an enlarge potion/effect to hit attack/damage numbers? No one has said that the fighter/ranger/barbarian/paladin/etc does less damage, the question is and has been can the monk meet up to a certain minimum standard? If it takes consumables to do it, then that's fine, at least we can say "OK, with these kinds of bonuses, a monk meets these averages for what a character should do" and look at what the bonuses are and where they come from to see if the monk needs a fix and what kind.
The problem I find in real games is that the gear that you may think you have available may not be, and WBL may not actually measure up...and that's when the monk suffers because is actually MORE equipment dependent than other classes - and on rarer equipment.
Swings and roundabouts, I suppose.
100%. I tend to discount any argument that depends on corner cases and consumables.
I think Brain's builds were good builds, build legitimately. However they didn't meet the criteria AND they needed consumables.
Yeah when limited to Core i struggle a bit when building a Monk.
Why does using consumables matter?
Also i will be posting a 13th build later today.
IIRC you had one potion. That means for the other fights you wont have access to, depending on when they take place. The issue is that in short is that with one use consumables they are not always available.
To add to my last statement I don't my consumables being listed, but the character should still be looked as though the consumable is not there to account for times he won't be able to have it. When he does have it, the action needed to use it should be accounted for.
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And boom goes the wall of text derail.
Way to go TOZ...
You say that like there were tracks to begin with.Or as if your own constant complaints about Ashiel's presence were much better on topic.
You doubled the number of off-topic posts by putting a complaint after each one she made =P
Ashiel is a dude.
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Ashiel is a dude.
You are off topic, citizen. Return to the subject at hand.
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To add to my last statement I don't my consumables being listed, but the character should still be looked as though the consumable is not there to account for times he won't be able to have it. When he does have it, the action needed to use it should be accounted for.
Sure, and to add to this, consumables are, by definition able to be consumed.
When they are consumed, they cease to exist, unlike other items purchased under WBL.
They aren't "bad", but if you have to resort to temporary items that will need to be replaced over and over as they are used, you weaken your argument.
WBL is intended to be a guideline of expected value of equipment at a given level. These discussions generally are asking broad questions about class performance overall, not just in a single given encounter.
Brain bought several potions to compensate, and I give him credit for that. It was an honest build, and mage armor was part of what a monk can access that is advantageous.
But it also demonstrates the dependency on others or ready access to consumables, and that is a problem.
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Well it's up to the DM to decide what constitutes as a "service".That's what the opposed charisma check in planar binding is for. :)Always remember this phrase.
A small percentage of djinn are noble. Noble djinn, often
called viziers, have 10 Hit Dice, Strength 23, and Charisma
17, and "can" grant three wishes to any being (nongenies only)
who captures them. Djinn nobles are CR 8.Can is not the same as "always", or "has no choice", or "made to comply".
If they want to house rule it, yeah.
The creature makes a save; if failed they're trapped in the binding. They can try and escape once per day with SR, planar travel, or with a charisma check.
The caster can then demand a service of their choosing in return for freedom; this is where the opposed charisma check comes in. The caster does not have to offer the outsider anything. They may offer them something to gain a bonus on their charisma check, the value of that bonus (between +0 and +6) being the sole thing determined by a GM in the entire spell.
That's not a house rule I'm afraid. The description has left it open on purpose so the DM can decide.
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I don't think Genies were made to grant players as many wishes as they wanted just because someone has access to a binding spell. That is a just a consequence of the system.On a side note, this was brought up during the playtest for Pathfinder. I've seen the thread. Someone pointed out that efreeti were within planar binding limits and could be called for wishes. It was acknowledged by the devs and some discussion about it occurred. However, Pathfinder comes out and still efreeti are bind-able wish-makers, so I presume it might not be as unexpected as some would have us think.
What did get nerfed however was wish. For one, the biggest abuse of wish as a SLA in 3.x was the fact you could wish for magic items with a scaling cost in components. SLAs meant that you got the benefits of the components free of charge, which means in 3.x you can have an efreeti produce a magic item of infinite value if desired. Wish in Pathfinder is so nerfed as to be patently worse than miracle by most standards, and is prohibitively expensive if cast the old fashioned way.
I will say this, as DM I reserve the right to arbitrate how the spell works by RAW. I can decide which definition of a specific keyword is handled. Let's look at the words "Compel" and "Obliged".
Now compel can be used to mean forcing someone to do something or make them obliged which itself holds multiple meanings.
Now as DM I am deciding to use "Obliged" as "to do a service for", then I can decide what constitutes as a "service". Now if I want granting you wishes to be a service then I will decide that but if I don't then that's okay as well because I'm still with in the RAW.
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I see shallowsoul has a law degree.
I see we are now talking about genies and elemental gems. It is almost like someone came in and tried to derail the thread...
On topic, any comments on the rogue build or any other monk builds, because if not I think we can declare victory for the "Monk needs help" side and move on to the how.
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Ashiel...I gotta ask...was that monk the guy brought even slightly optimized?He sure thought he was optimized.
(...more...)
I think if the player took just a little bit of Ashiel's basic advice (that is to make use of consumables) then his monk would've fared somewhat better. A potion of see invisibility and a potion of fly, and a potion of invisibility for himself, should be standard gear on any level 10 monk build.
Sure, I've not seen his build - so I would not be surprised if he'd lose against his 3 challengers anyway - but he should at least have had a "fighting chance" (which I would translate into winning 1 fight out of 3 or 4).
As is... I think he optimized for PFS or similar challenges; which require less optimization. I enjoy PFS scenarios - as they tend to be varied enough for my monk characters to cope just fine and contribute frequently.
This happened around level 6 or 7 for my PFS monk, we played a scenario that featured a BBEG bard with summoning and (crowd) control as the finale. True to form for the BBEG, every single other PC was routed or disabled by the fear and sleep. Not my monk however, she saved and went in to disarm and trip the guy and buy the time the others needed to come back (more than 10 rounds later - even the BBEG summons had already expired).
Things went both ways really, my monk was suggested to return the weapon to the BBEG, which she did, after tripping him first. Then when he provoked on standing up, she disarmed him again. She tanked through his summons, even when temporarily falling prone from hideous laughter (recovered on the following round), and interrupted his follow-up summon with a successful attack that he failed to concentrate through.
She literally took everything the BBEG could throw at her. Granted, she wasn't killing him fast - but the trips and disarms (and occasional other maneuvers such as dirty trick) kept the BBEG so flustered and inconvenienced in his action economy that by the time the others came back he had nothing left; nor could he escape.
The other party members could come in and contribute for 1 round (dealing one good hit of damage from the fighter-type), then my monk finished the battle with the killing hit.