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So I noticed the Iconic Alchemist has a wand of Alchemical Allocation.
Now I know Alchemists can not qualify for craft feats.
But can they provide the Alchemical Allocation when someone else creats s the wand as an aid?
Like where did this wand come from?
Some players I play with claim it is impossible. Others say they can aid.
What is the ruling on the existence of these things?
From the Core Rulebook:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).
So yes, an alchemist can provide the spell for someone else who has Craft Wand.
Alternatively, a multi-classed alchemist / real-spellcaster might have a caster level from the latter, allowing them to take Craft Wand. Then they can make wands of any spell they know (of level 0-4) without help, including their alchemist spells. (And then the iconic can buy one from them.)
So I noticed the Iconic Alchemist has a wand of Alchemical Allocation.
Now I know Alchemists can not qualify for craft feats.
But can they provide the Alchemical Allocation when someone else creats s the wand as an aid?
Like where did this wand come from?
Some players I play with claim it is impossible. Others say they can aid.
What is the ruling on the existence of these things?
It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about, but that is not an iconic character. It's a fan creation on a website called pathfindercommunity.net. I believe that by the rules such a wand is impossible, personally, because extracts are not spells, so as extract-only, alch alloc is not actually a spell at all. Like many things, I think it could use an FAQ.
It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about, but that is not an iconic character. It's a fan creation on a website called pathfindercommunity.net. I believe that by the rules such a wand is impossible, personally, because extracts are not spells, so as extract-only, alch alloc is not actually a spell at all. Like many things, I think it could use an FAQ.So I noticed the Iconic Alchemist has a wand of Alchemical Allocation.
Now I know Alchemists can not qualify for craft feats.
But can they provide the Alchemical Allocation when someone else creats s the wand as an aid?
Like where did this wand come from?
Some players I play with claim it is impossible. Others say they can aid.
What is the ruling on the existence of these things?
How do the alchemists make potions?
At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.It refers to 'spells' and does not explicitly say that the formulae are 'treated as spells' for this ability (just alchemist level as caster level), therefore formulae must generically count as spells for the creation of magic items.
That wording there indicates that Brew Potion had need to make a special exception for the alchemist, and it still didn't say that all extracts were spells, just that only the formulae that are formulae of spells that could be made into a potion can be made into a potion (thus, implying that formulae can be the equivalent of a spell, not that they always are).
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By the way, for those who may not be aware of it, "Rogue Eidolon" is a (publicly known) alias of one of the designers. Mark uses that alias when he wants to impart information from his personal perspective but without having people reference it later as "that's what Paizo officially said."
So when he says "that's not an official Iconic" it's pretty solid. When he says "I personally believe that such a wand is impossible" that's not an official response but is the perspective of one of the team responsible for the rules. When he says "Like many things I think it could use a FAQ," click the button and move it closer to getting a definitive response!
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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There is another thread about this, where one of my local players posted his opinion on the matter.
I thought a while back somebody from Paizo said that they might offer some crafting solutions for Alchemists in the future. I guess that doesn't really help to answer this question here and now, but I went ahead and clicked FAQ.
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I think the real question for an Alchemical Allocation wand is do you have to use it like a straw in order to drink and then backwash the potion?
The difference between a SP like kinetic blast and the extract is that kinetic blast you are never actually a spell caster or casting a real spell. It doesn't count as a spell for anything (according to FAQs. There could be a RAW argument) however Extracts section of the alchemist page specifically says that any and all extracts when used are "casting the spell" so since alchemical allocation is a working extract it is intrincitly more of a spell than say kinetic blast.
Actually, from wild talents class feature of the Kineticist:
Every wild talent has an effective spell level. A kineticist can always select 1st-level wild talents, but she can select a wild talent of a higher level only if her kineticist level is at least double the wild talent's effective spell level. Kinetic blast and defense wild talents are always considered to have an effective spell level equal to 1/2 the kineticist's class level (to a maximum effective spell level of 9th at kineticist level 18th).
From kinetic blast:
A readied kinetic blast can be used to counterspell any spell of equal or lower level that shares its descriptor.
so kineticist abilities DO count as spells for at least some purposes.
But mostly. the various SP FAQ's shut down the wand, and seemingly were made specifically to disallow creating wands of SP abilities. (I would love a wand of my dragon breath and all)
While there's a FAQ that states that the caster level from SLAs does not count for crafting feats, another FAQ says that a creature CAN use SLAs tu fulfill crafting requirements, like a Leonal with the fireball SLA can use it to make a Flaming weapon if it has Craft Magic Arms and Armor from other sources (maybe multiclassing sorcerer for all it matters).
So there can be an argument for potions, scrolls and wands being made from SLAs, although the latter two can only be used without UMD only if are SLAs that imitate spells.Also, dragon's breath is supernatural, not spell-like
It took me a while to figure out what you were talking about, but that is not an iconic character. It's a fan creation on a website called pathfindercommunity.net. I believe that by the rules such a wand is impossible, personally, because extracts are not spells, so as extract-only, alch alloc is not actually a spell at all. Like many things, I think it could use an FAQ.So I noticed the Iconic Alchemist has a wand of Alchemical Allocation.
Now I know Alchemists can not qualify for craft feats.
But can they provide the Alchemical Allocation when someone else creats s the wand as an aid?
Like where did this wand come from?
Some players I play with claim it is impossible. Others say they can aid.
What is the ruling on the existence of these things?
How does a Monstrification Staff [ACG, pg#221] get made? It requires: "creator must be an alchemist". Must an alchemist multiclass and/or hire other spell casters to make it?
This wand really should be hallow and work like a funnel.
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I have an alchemist right now, and I can tell you that (as it stands) wands of alchemical allocation are impossible. I have delved into this a lot, and here's how it works.
1) Alchemists are NOT considered spellcasters. They do NOT cast spells. They make items that mimic spell abilities, and they can learn new alchemical formulas from existing magical spells, but they are NOT spellcasters, and their extracts are NOT spells. They cannot aid in crafting magical items.
FAQ, look for "Are alchemist's spellcasters.
The only exception to this rule is that alchemists can make potions because THEY ARE SPECIFICALLY ALLOWED TO in the alchemist class. They can only use wands/staves with arcane spells because the class SPECIFICALLY allows it. (Note that the investigator class DOESN'T allow it, and investigators have to UMD all wands and staves, even though they have alchemy, because they don't have that extra bit of wording.)
2) Okay, so what if someone else MADE a wand and gave it to him? Also impossible. While most magical items can be made without meeting the perquisites by adding 5 to the craft DC, this is not the case with wands. In the description of craft wand, it says specifically that you must KNOW THE SPELL
You create a wand of a SPELL YOU KNOW.
Archives of Nethys source
Alchemical allocation ONLY shows up on the alchemist (and investigator) Formulae lists. Nowhere is it a spell, it is just an alchemical formula.
3)Last attempt: could an alchemist take ranks in say, craft (whittling) and the master crafter feat, and make a wand that way? Again, no. The craft wand feat stays as is, thus the alchemist crafting the wand would STILL have to know alchemical allocation as a 'spell.' He doesn't, he knows it as a formulae.
Believe me, I have been backwards and forwards up and down the rules looking for something similar (in particular, ways for alchemists to share their formuale with other spellcasters) but it just doesn't work.
4)Super ultra last ditch effort: Be a Samsauran. One of the racials of the Samsauran is that they can crib spells off of other spell lists as long as they match the same type, and alchemists are arcane powered. So can a Samsauran Wizard/Sorcerer/magus/archanist/bloodrager make one? RAW it still doesn't work, because Alchemists don't have a 'spell list' they have a 'formulae list' so it does not work with the Samsauran racial. However, this one is a bit more open to interpretation.
VampByDay: You may have "have delved into this a lot" but not far enough.
1) Alchemists CAN be spellcasters. Taking Spell Knowledge, you can prepare and cast a spell as an arcane spell.
2) even without 1), a multiclass alchemist/other caster can know alchemical allocation and have 5 levels of an other casting class to have the feat.
3) you can use spell-like abilities for item creation requirements. A formula is closer to a spell than it is to a SLA, so it seems like it shouldn't be an issue. The example is that a demon that has a fireball SLA counts as being able to prepared the spell or knows the spell called fireball. It seems unlikely that a formula is less viable than a SLA.
And as proof that alchemists CAN "aid in crafting magical items", look up the Monstrification Staff. You can't make it without being a alchemist...
shroud: That may be a snag. It works like a spell for just about everything. Same format, same rules, same lists, ect. It's just not a 'spell' but you don't need an actual spell for item creation. But I could see them saying it's not spell enough for the wand to create it. This is the only real hurtle that I can see in creation the wand.
Asking if a wand can be made for a spell only alchemist know could be FAQ worthy.
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VampByDay: You may have "have delved into this a lot" but not far enough.
1) Alchemists CAN be spellcasters. Taking Spell Knowledge, you can prepare and cast a spell as an arcane spell.
2) even without 1), a multiclass alchemist/other caster can know alchemical allocation and have 5 levels of an other casting class to have the feat.
3) you can use spell-like abilities for item creation requirements. A formula is closer to a spell than it is to a SLA, so it seems like it shouldn't be an issue. The example is that a demon that has a fireball SLA counts as being able to prepared the spell or knows the spell called fireball. It seems unlikely that a formula is less viable than a SLA.
And as proof that alchemists CAN "aid in crafting magical items", look up the Monstrification Staff. You can't make it without being a alchemist...
shroud: That may be a snag. It works like a spell for just about everything. Same format, same rules, same lists, ect. It's just not a 'spell' but you don't need an actual spell for item creation. But I could see them saying it's not spell enough for the wand to create it. This is the only real hurtle that I can see in creation the wand.
Asking if a wand can be made for a spell only alchemist know could be FAQ worthy.
1)Yes, okay, yes, you can cast that 1 arcane spell. However, RAW, you still do not have a 'caster level.' You can have an effective caster level equal to your alchemist level FOR THAT SPELL, but, since you are not a class that receives as 'caster level' you still do not qualify for item creation feats.
2) Yes, a multiclass alchemist/wizard (say) can take crafting feats, however, they still cannot make items using their alchemical stuff. The reason is the same as the reason why master crafter does not work. They do not KNOW a spell called 'alchemical allocation.' They know a formula for an extract called alchemical allocation, so they can't craft a wand of it, because they do not know the 'spell.' In fact, there is no spell, anywhere, called alchemical allocation. There is an extract formulae, and probably some potions (made by alchemists with there special class feature that EXPLICITLY lets them make potions using their extracts in place of the needed spell.)
3)Read the alchemy class feature. Alchemy is a supernatural ability. Their extracts are special things, and they aren't spells or spell like abilities. They are extracts. They are NOT spells, they are NOT spell like abilities. You CANNOT use them to make magic items, or to assist in making magic items.
You can find all of the following info here.
At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet the prerequisites for this feat.
tl;dr:
alchemical allocation is NOT a spell.longer explanation:
None of the formulae are a spell, but most of them do have an arcane/divine spell counterpart (shield extract is based on shield spell and etc)
alchemical allocation though has no arcane/divive counterpart. Even if you had access to magic creation feats, even if you had master craftsman, you still need a SPELL for a wand, and alchemical allocation isn't one.
The closest thing extracts are, are SLA'S. "Things" that work "like" spells, but aren't.Similar to how you cannot make a wand of p.e. kinetic blast (an spell-like ability), you cannot make a wand of alchemical allocation.
You CAN make a wand of mage armor though, because per the sla faq, you are allowed to use your sla's for prerequisites. Or even find another spellcaster to supply any other spell for you to make in a wand (provided you actually have access to crafting feats, either via master craftsman, or another way)
But it needs to be a SPELL
I . . . I think we agree. Extracts are not spells, thus they cannot be used for item creation. I think that was the point of my numbers three and four. The only co-operative item creating that can be done with alchemists is that another person can provide a spell for an alchemist to turn into a potion. I was just exploring the common arguments I heard.