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Ok, I'm pretty sure that since the Advanced Races Guide came out, a lot of players wants to play kitsunes with 9 tails, using the Magical Tail feat. However, since the feat doesn't get stronger by itself, you have to select it 7 more times to get 9 tails in the end. A regular class gets 10 feats, from 1 to 20, which doesn't let you much space for customization.
Classes that grant lots of bonus feats, like the fighter, would be adequate for a 9-tailed kitsune... but what about the other classes. Wizards, ninjas and samurais can help, but not as much...
I've been meaning to ask: aside from fighter builds, which are pretty easy to do, is it possible to become a 9-tailed kitsune in other classes and still be a valuable party member ? I'd like to see sample builds for that.
You forgot to mention that only high charisma characters will get the full benefits from the magical tails. Paladins are probably the best class for them because they have so many class features, they can get by with less feats. Bards would also be good if they focused on buffing.
Looks like someone got inspired by my thread.
Best options are Paladin and Bard, you say? How about Rogue/Ninja and Sorcerer?
Actually, I think any class can make use of the enchantments. I believe they get 1/2 your character level to the DC, which is REALLY good. You don't need sky-high Charisma, just enough to pump the DC's slightly. Cavalier could also function well, as certain orders have Charisma-based abilities.
It would be the same as all SLAs, 10+Spell Level+Cha Mod
Ninja wouldn't be that bad. You use all of your feats for the Magic Tail feat and just use Ninja Tricks and Rouge Talents to get your TWF, Weapon Finesse, or any other feat you need via Combat Trick.
Rogue seems to be an easier path than Ninja, because the rogue's combat training talent is available earlier the ninja's feat master trick.
Could monk be a good path to take too ?
Sorcerer could do it. They get a few bonus feats, and they don't really need feats that much anyways. Charisma would synergize well, and I don't think it would be redundant because of your limited spell list.
Speaking of kitsune builds where the nine tails could be taken, how good is the Kitsune Trickster Rogue archetype anyway?
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Ninja wouldn't be that bad. You use all of your feats for the Magic Tail feat and just use Ninja Tricks and Rouge Talents to get your TWF, Weapon Finesse, or any other feat you need via Combat Trick.Rogue seems to be an easier path than Ninja, because the rogue's combat training talent is available earlier the ninja's feat master trick.
Could monk be a good path to take too ?
A Ninja can take any rouge talent via the rouge talent ninja trick, which can be taken multiple times. Also, they both get advanced talents/tricks at the same level and again, you can take any advanced rouge talent in addition to your Ninja tricks. On top of that you get a Ki pool based off of your Cha that you can use for a whole bunch of fun stuff.
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Sorcerer kitsune get a bonus on their enchantment DC's so that helps too (if they choose to spend their favored class on it).
A Ninja can take any rouge talent via the rouge talent ninja trick, which can be taken multiple times. Also, they both get advanced talents/tricks at the same level and again, you can take any advanced rouge talent in addition to your Ninja tricks. On top of that you get a Ki pool based off of your Cha that you can use for a whole bunch of fun stuff.Ninja wouldn't be that bad. You use all of your feats for the Magic Tail feat and just use Ninja Tricks and Rouge Talents to get your TWF, Weapon Finesse, or any other feat you need via Combat Trick.Rogue seems to be an easier path than Ninja, because the rogue's combat training talent is available earlier the ninja's feat master trick.
Could monk be a good path to take too ?
Oh, that's right, I missed that part ^^
You guys say that Paladin could work... but how ? What's you theory about it ?
As for Bard, is it because the class isn't as feat-reliant as the other classes ?
No the bard isn´t feat reliant at all.
You only want all those feats for your performance like lingering performance etc.
Paladin and Bard could work because:
- They are both CHA based so a high CHA synergizes really well with those classes as well as your tail feats
- their classes give a lot of class features that are stronger than most feats (Palidin's lay on hands/mercies/save bonuses/immunities/aura's/mount etc) which makes feats for both classes less crucial for a viable character. Bards get a lot of versatility from CHA based skills (performances) but only have a handful of "key" feats (lingering performance being perhaps the key if your bard wants the maximum usefulness of performances over the course of the day)
- Both classes are already somewhat magical in nature with spellcasting as part of the class (though also both are more limited than full spellcasters)
I see, thanks for the input ^^
I don't think anyone answered this question of mine, but is the Kitsune Trickster archetype an okay alternative to a Ninja, or is it just as bad as a normal Rogue? I'm just wondering in case my DM gets that stupid idea of banning Ninjas "because they don't fit" which is ridiculous, especially if said Ninja is a Kitsune and not a Kellid.
I don't think anyone answered this question of mine, but is the Kitsune Trickster archetype an okay alternative to a Ninja, or is it just as bad as a normal Rogue? I'm just wondering in case my DM gets that stupid idea of banning Ninjas "because they don't fit" which is ridiculous, especially if said Ninja is a Kitsune and not a Kellid.
I'm afraid that you can't apply the Trickster archetype to a ninja, because ninjas don't get trapfinding or trap sense to be replaced.
A kitsune trickster rogue with 9 tails can be done, you're just not a trap specialist. Also, the rogue talents are only there as suugestions, not mandatory choices.
I think that what has been meant is that the Archeologist bard archetype trades the bardic performance for several rogue class features while retaining bardic knowledge and spells. For a 9-tailed kitsune, it would actually be more beneficial to take that class since you get more features than feats could grant you.
I didn't say I want to apply the archetype to the ninja, but thank you for answering my question anyway.
I didn't say I want to apply the archetype to the ninja, but thank you for answering my question anyway.
Oh, my bad, I just re-read your comment ^^
The Kitsune Trickster Rogue gives you less features than a Kitsune Archeologist Bard would. That's why we said it's "bad". An Archeologist is essentially a mix between the rogue and the bard, minus the sneak attack and the bardic performance.
However, I just noticed that the Archeologist grants you trap sense, so maybe you could try to houserule that you could get Kitsune's Charm as an alternate feature.
That is something opinions differ on.
Theoretically you could exchange the stuff you get instead of trapfinding and tryp sense.
Kitsune Trickster is more of a social archetype, but there are some ninja tricks that fit in really well. For me it would be a go.
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Banning a class, because of it's name is stupid, and provides evidence that the DM lacks imagination.
The name of you class does not define you.
I can build a "ninja" PC, without a single level in the Ninja class.
I can build Rogues who are(surprise) not sneaky.
I can build tactics based sneaky Barbarians.
You simply have to move beyond the damn name of your class.
There is no need to create restrictions that don't exist.
Ninja wouldn't be that bad. You use all of your feats for the Magic Tail feat and just use Ninja Tricks and Rouge Talents to get your TWF, Weapon Finesse, or any other feat you need via Combat Trick.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you only able to select Combat Trick once?
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Rogue seems to be an easier path than Ninja, because the rogue's combat training talent is available earlier the ninja's feat master trick.
Could monk be a good path to take too ?
i would say no on the monk, it takes quite a bit to make them good in a group. removing feats for control SLA isnt worth it. besides you would net better spells from goin qinggong.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you only able to select Combat Trick once?
no, you are correct.
Weapon Training for Weapon Focus, Rogue Talent Finesse Rogue for Weapon Finesse and one Comabt Talent with Combat Trick, that´s about it.
You are free to take Forgotten Trick and "remember" Combat Trick, choosing Combat Feats in time as you need them though.
With that new ring reducing ki costs something like this becomes more usefull.
Monk Bonus Feats are from a fixed list. I didn´t see Magical Tail on that list yet.
Also since Magical Tail is a racial Feat, i don´t think you can choose it with class bonus feats that do not especially say you can choose general/racial feats, which makes a fighter i.e. also useless.
I think the point was that Classes that give you bonus Feats, even if only from a specific list, help to assuage the limitation that using 4/5ths of your feats on one feat would impose. Not that you could use the Bonus Feats themselves.
I could be wrong however.
I think the point was that Classes that give you bonus Feats, even if only from a specific list, help to assuage the limitation that using 4/5ths of your feats on one feat would impose. Not that you could use the Bonus Feats themselves.
I could be wrong however.
You're right. A nine-tailed kitsune fighter would be a viable character, because you take 8 regular feats for the tails and keep your [truckload of] bonus feats for your playstyle.
The rest of the classes can be hard to pull off, unless they give feats as well or unless they are not feat-reliant, like the bard.
For instance... you're pretty much screwed trying to play a nine-tailled kitsune cleric, witch or druid.
Again, where is the bard not feat reliant?
Such racial feats shouldnt be such a heavy tax in my opinion.
With the Drow feats it´s similar and some others too.
Of course it´s adding new tricks and abilities, but the price is too high.
Again, where is the bard not feat reliant?
Huh, you said that:
No the bard isn´t feat reliant at all.
You only want all those feats for your performance like lingering performance etc.
That was highly ironic. Perhaps i should somehow mark it as such next time^^
In my opinion the bard is feat reliant.
Luckily, I managed to convince my GM to let my kitsune sorcerer get all of his tails as long as he just gets the same spells the tails offer via his class and takes the fox shape feat. I couldn't stand the idea of wasting 8 feats on abilities that would be almost worthless. So, my kitsune will have a number of tails based on his maximum spell level.
Why are they worthless for a sorcerer? Well, by a very strict reading of the rules, all the bonuses that Kitsunes get to their enchantment spell DCs don't help spell-like-abilities (unless I'm mistaken). This includes the sorcerer favored class bonus, the kitsune racial bonus, and bloodline abilities (such as fey). My kitsune's spell DCs would be +8 higher than those from the tail feats by level 20. I simply took silent spell and still spell and I can basically function as if I actually took the tail feats.
They'd probably be much more useful for a ninja or fighter though.
I vote someone provide some example builds.
I thought that my topic was buried 6 feet under... Guess not ^_^
I've been pondering on that and I'm having trouble with non-fighter builds. I'll see what I can do.
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I think a caster could most easily spare the feats for the tails.
Unfortunately, the tails would be most redundant on a caster, and more interesting on a martial character. So.
I'll be honest, I'm rather disappointed you need to spend 8 feats to get a 9 tailed kitsune. I like the race a lot, but that is a killer investment for most classes.
I've got a kitsune ninja atm, but I don't plan on taking all of the tails - in fact, probably not more than a single time for alter self or maybe also charm person.
My other idea to really capitalize on the Magical tail feats was sorcerer. Whether enchantment focused, which Kitsune Magic helps with, or straight up blaster with the extra versatility provided by having the tails. And, seeing as Sorcerer gets a couple bonus feats via their bloodline, that helps alleviate the high feat requirement.
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I think the whole shape changing ability is a huge benefit and giving the 9 tails without significant costs makes this race very op. They can't move away from kitsune lore that says more tails=more power so I think it's fair.
Oh, I agree. There should certainly be a rather significant investment for the options that the 9 tails give you. I just feel that 80% of a character's standard feats from 1 to 20 might be a bit too costly in that regard.
And unfortunately, I think the flavor also suffers a bit from it. A sorcerer or wizard kitsune at level 20 could be wielding astronomical cosmic power with a single tail. Equating the tails as a measure of kitsune strength makes that look a little curious, and other classes that don't rely on magic have a similar deal. A 9-tailed kitsune samurai, for example, seems pretty badass but that samurai might kinda suck at actual combat.
Edit: Cleaned up some wording.
I think the whole shape changing ability is a huge benefit and giving the 9 tails without significant costs makes this race very op. They can't move away from kitsune lore that says more tails=more power so I think it's fair.Oh, I agree. There should certainly be a rather significant investment for the options that the 9 tails give you. I just feel that 80% of a character's standard feats from 1 to 20 might be a bit too costly in that regard.
And unfortunately, I think the flavor also suffers a bit from it. A sorcerer or wizard kitsune at level 20 could be wielding astronomical cosmic power with a single tail. Equating the tails as a measure of kitsune strength makes that look a little curious, and other classes that don't rely on magic have a similar deal. A 9-tailed kitsune samurai, for example, seems pretty badass but that samurai might kinda suck at actual combat.
This is exactly why I'm glad that I was able to convince my GM to let my kitsune sorcerer simply have a number of tails equal to his max spell-level for flavor purposes. Taking the tail feats would have been pretty worthless and would have actually weakened the character.
I hope paizo comes out with a 'multi-tailed fox' sorcerer bloodline at some point that has the same flavor.
This is exactly why I'm glad that I was able to convince my GM to let my kitsune sorcerer simply have a number of tails equal to his max spell-level for flavor purposes. Taking the tail feats would have been pretty worthless and would have actually weakened the character.
Yeah, I saw your post upthread, and agree that sounds like a good way to flavor it. It's just a little unfortunate that, as per the written rules for kitsune, getting a 9-tailed fox that doesn't sorta gimp your character can be a bit tough to do.
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I also agree that burning 9 feats for tails that are each only usable 2 times a day. It feels interesting for a fighter... but I would imagine those feats spent on other things, or perhaps multi classing if not outright prestigue classing. Having to be 17th level essentually and your big final power is you can cast dominate person 2/day. Liches, Death Knights, Vampires and not just undead but many other higher level creatures are either immune to mind effects or have such a good save that or counters that the 17th level feat for a tail of dominate person that can not recieve the benefits of other feats that boosts spells seems like a waste.
But that also depends on how long your "game days" are, If you do alot in your day... then you will burn through those abilities, if your days are short with little RP or chance to just goof off and have character or plot development then they wont be wasted as much, also the feats are usually better spent on abilities that do not have a max use per day... i.e. Greater two weapon fighting as opposed to a tail that gives you disguise self. (pre-requisites aside and times you gain them to the time you can get them)
I do like Matrix Dragon's idea of having the number of tails known reflecting the max level of spells known. That works great for arcane or divine characters but what about martial characters?
I think that take the feats would give them access to a selection of spells and each time they take the feat they gain access to more spells and higher level ones, though no where near as powerful as a full blown caster, perhaps something like each tail would give access to a selection of 3-4 spells to be chosen and may 3 times a day each...?
Sorry if I necro'ed... but I was curious about this to... and it hasnt really been answerd for me....plus.... I just wanted to add my 2 cents and see if someone can perhaps correct me by adding a counter point or perhaps has found a solution to make it seem more.... viable?
(Last time I checked, there's no penalty for resurrecting a thread, so no need to apologize :) )
Well, adding tails to indicate levels and such does make "cooler" to play as a Kitsune, and it's just an esthetic flavor, so you don't break the game with it.
Your idea of having Magical Tail giving players a small selection of spells... sounds broken. If you take the feat 8 times (not 9, because Kitsunes already have one tail), you can end up with a fighter with around 25 spell-like abilities. You know the sorcerer or the magus? Yeah, pretty much useless at this point XD
I'm really trying hard to get a build up and running... but, man, cramping 8 feats out of 10 is hard, really hard.
I kept asking why Magical Tail wasn't just one feat that grew stronger as you level up. Apparently, it would have been too god, but like you said, the SLAs get better resisted by targets by the time you gain them.
Fighter... seems to be the easy way around, although Magical Tail will have to be your regular feats, not bonus ones, meaning that at 15th level, you're a full-grown nine-tailed kitsune.
Hmrph... what classes DON'T need 8 regular feats to be optimal again?!?
I losty track, sorry...