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So for a game I'm planning I have a side adventure involving dragons. I won't go into specifics, but as part of setting it up I've decided that dragons reproduce only while polymorphed into humanoids. The pregnant dragon is locked from polymorphing until the child is born, since my head hurts thinking about pregnant creatures polymorphing.
So the real issue is this: when the child is born, what is it? It's parents are both dragons, but were biologically both humanoids at the child's conception. Can two creatures capable of polymporphing spawn any creature they want this way? Does the child instantly revert to its parents' true race? Is it born polymorphed but can naturally polymorph back? Just looking to bounce thoughts off of people.
Note: Please don't discuss pregnant creatures polymorphing. The issues with self only spells and pregnant creatures is something I don't want to deal with. If you must discuss it, make your own thread.
No RAW on this at all. Do what feels right for your story and world.
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I'd have it born in whatever form the parent is currently assuming, but then revert to it's true form soon-ish. (Within minutes, probably.)
If it were a species capable of changing shape from the very beginning (such as a silver dragon), or its parents took some unusual precautions (special dragon ritual, special magic pendant to keep it from changing back, an alchemical solution that locks it in humanoid shape for a time, etc.), I'd allow it to remain in humanoid form, for purposes of disguise or whatever (the parents not wanting their bouncing baby to turn all scaly and dragonish in front of the midwife or whatever).
The nature of shapechanging magic and stuff doesn't change genetics, or even many biological details (for instance, a human using a dragon shape spell can't pump out dragon or half-dragon kids), so I wouldn't have a child born to parents temporarily assuming other forms magically have any lingering side-effects or racial traits of the form their parents were faking magically, unless that was a specific quality of the creature (such as a succubus whose half-fiendish kids look totally normal until they hit 13) or something that made sense for the setting / theme (such as a doppleganger 'family' whose kids look like the elves they are pretending to be, even before they are old enough to be able to control their shapeshifting abilities).
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I've decided that dragons reproduce only while polymorphed into humanoids. () So the real issue is this: when the child is born, what is it?
If they can only reproduce when polymorphed, and you want two dragons to be able to have baby dragons, then the child of two polymorphed dragons has to be a full dragon.
It's parents are both dragons, but were biologically both humanoids at the child's conception.
No, they're both physically humanoids at conception. Polymorphing doesn't change creature type, so it doesn't have a perfect effect on biology. One frequent explanation for a half-dragon is that a polymorphed dragon mated with a non-dragon. That would require that some essential part of dragon nature (whether genetic or otherwise) is not affected by the polymorph and is inherited by the child.
Can two creatures capable of polymporphing spawn any creature they want this way?
Not normally, because of the above interpretation. However, they can parent a half-whatever they want by polymorphing into something and mating with a natural member of that species.
Does the child instantly revert to its parents' true race? Is it born polymorphed but can naturally polymorph back? Just looking to bounce thoughts off of people.
I'd go with Set's suggestion on this one.
All of this is up to interpretation - I'm just explaining the most common usage, which you've already altered by prohibiting dragons from reproducing in their normal form. If you want polymorphing to alter genetics perfectly (either just for polymorphed dragons or in general), then the child of two half-dragons polymorphed into humans could be a normal human. Or the genetics of polymorph could be imperfect and a half-dragon results. Or only the dragon magic is inherited and you get a draconic bloodline sorcerer, otherwise a normal human.
Of course, as noted above this would mean that baby dragons would have to come from some other source, such as a wellspring of ancient magic. Or they could result from a powerful ritual transformation applied to humanoids (perhaps it works only for those of draconic decent). Or they are the souls of powerful individuals reborn. Or there simply aren't any baby dragons and they are slowly dying out.
It would be interesting if, for example, dragons were unable to mate while in dragonoid form and instead they needed to assume a humanoid guise in other to do so. Let's add in for kicks that dragons with the shape change ability all have a specific humanoid form, similar to how kitsume always change into the same human when they polymorph. Maybe this trait is inherited, maybe it is not, but it could open interesting roleplay opportunities.
For example, a female dragon getting wooed by someone she thought was also a dragon, but she instead gives birth to a half-dragon "monstrosity" instead of a true dragon!
The BoEF has a chart which suggests humans and dragons are compatible and will always produce a half-breed, but is strangely mum on what form the dragon had taken in their example.
Well from a DNA standpoint a polymorphed dragon would still have Dragon DNA right?
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Thanks all for the thoughts so far. Also thank you Weirdo, I hadn't managed to get to the logical conclusion that if dragons only reproduce when polymorphed, and the child is of the same species as the polymorph form, then no new dragons would be born. I'll probably do something where the child is born as the polymorph form, but during puberty it slowly changes into a young dragon. Could be a great NPC character, especially if the PCs befriend it while it's human (or elf or orc or whatever). I think I will go with the kitsune-like shape change, so when the grown up dragon baby polymorphs it resembles the human child form but older.
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Oh, that is a fun idea. Would the draconic parents try to dissuade adventurers from getting too close to their child? Or perhaps the NPC dragon is for whatever reason being cared for by someone who doesn't know the truth, and the caregiver starts calling for Sir Roderick when his ward starts growing scales...
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I've always given all true dragons the change shape ability as a houserule. It seemed silly to me that you can have half-dragons, Draconic Sorcerers, etc. of any kind of dragon, but only a small handful have the change shape ability.
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Now, try to apply all this to gods/goddesses and Lovecraftian creatures.
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Only adult or older green dragons, and ancient red dragons would be able to procreate on the chromatic side. (via alter self and/or polymorph) None of them get the change shape supernatural ability that the good dragons get.
The metallic dragons are a little better off, as gold, silver and bronze all get the Change Shape (su). Copper however can't reproduce until it reaches Ancient (and gets polymorph). Brass can do so once it gets to Adult.
And the poor copper and red dragons have to finish their business in 15 minutes before the spell wears off!
Well, speaking for the Good dragons, maybe that's why they're "Good" aligned in relation to humanoids. Metallic dragons actively need mortals to procreate with while Chromatic dragons are able to bump the nasties in other ways. Therefore when metallic dragons are acting good, they're really only protecting their breeding grounds.
And am I mistaken, or are Copper Dragons the really sociable ones? I could see that working for them.
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I forget if it was 3.5 or PF, but some fluff says Blue Dragons would create half-dragon's though mad science instead.
I think almost *all* female chromatic dragons would prefer to make half-dragons through some magical ritual / incantation involving strapping a member of race X to a table, draining half of their blood, replacing it with some of her blood, and then sealing it into one of her empty egg casings she's got lying around to 'set' for a month, before decanting it to see if she's got a half-dragon X or soup.
The alternative is just not gonna happen.
"Yes, I want a flight of half-dragon manticores, but there's no way that's going to happen the old-fashioned way, because the amount of alcohol it would take would literally kill me."
"Plus, what would mother think? She drops by and sees a bunch of half-dragon ogres calling me mommy? I'll never hear the end of it. Ritual it is, even if the failure rate is appalling, and the rare times a failure isn't fatal, the blind mewling tumorous thing that crawls out of the egg really wishes it had been..."
So for a game I'm planning I have a side adventure involving dragons. I won't go into specifics, but as part of setting it up I've decided that dragons reproduce only while polymorphed into humanoids. The pregnant dragon is locked from polymorphing until the child is born, since my head hurts thinking about pregnant creatures polymorphing.
So the real issue is this: when the child is born, what is it? It's parents are both dragons, but were biologically both humanoids at the child's conception. Can two creatures capable of polymporphing spawn any creature they want this way? Does the child instantly revert to its parents' true race? Is it born polymorphed but can naturally polymorph back? Just looking to bounce thoughts off of people.
Note: Please don't discuss pregnant creatures polymorphing. The issues with self only spells and pregnant creatures is something I don't want to deal with. If you must discuss it, make your own thread.
I saw the title and thought: "It's a seagull!" :}
For you sir, it depends, does genetics over-ride polymorph or vice versa? This may also be relevant for doppelgangers and other such creatures.
In my little game world, considering throwing in a big event. The re-birth of dragons (almost went extinct). Lizardfolk discover they can breed dragons back into existence. Leading to a choice, how far are they going to encourage this?
Only adult or older green dragons, and ancient red dragons would be able to procreate on the chromatic side. (via alter self and/or polymorph) None of them get the change shape supernatural ability that the good dragons get.
The metallic dragons are a little better off, as gold, silver and bronze all get the Change Shape (su). Copper however can't reproduce until it reaches Ancient (and gets polymorph). Brass can do so once it gets to Adult.
And the poor copper and red dragons have to finish their business in 15 minutes before the spell wears off!
Well, speaking for the Good dragons, maybe that's why they're "Good" aligned in relation to humanoids. Metallic dragons actively need mortals to procreate with while Chromatic dragons are able to bump the nasties in other ways. Therefore when metallic dragons are acting good, they're really only protecting their breeding grounds.
And am I mistaken, or are Copper Dragons the really sociable ones? I could see that working for them.
The church of the perverted dragon!
So the real issue is this: when the child is born, what is it?
An egg. From which a Dragon will hatch.
If a dragon baby was birthed as a mammal from a Humanoid mother, I can figure what bloody mess it would be, with all those spiky scales, and horns and fangs.
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Your answer is in your question. You stated that according to you dragons can only reproduce when humanoid. So if they aren't dragon when born than the dragons wouldn't exist. Have them be born as dragons, just like an infant, they wouldn't have good motor controls so they wouldn't be able to pollymorph.
Just a side bar but i was under the impression dragons laid eggs. Hence the term hatchling for baby dragons. Being all powerful they can reproduce anyway they want but food for thought.
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Your answer is in your question. You stated that according to you dragons can only reproduce when humanoid. So if they aren't dragon when born than the dragons wouldn't exist. Have them be born as dragons, just like an infant, they wouldn't have good motor controls so they wouldn't be able to pollymorph.
Just a side bar but i was under the impression dragons laid eggs. Hence the term hatchling for baby dragons. Being all powerful they can reproduce anyway they want but food for thought.
Indeed. Dragons have always laid eggs. Even in 3.5 the Draconomicon went into great detail about it.
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Monster eggs are a fantastic bit of treasure by the way. One char recently unleashed baby ettercaps in a dungeon they cleared. I think they were going to go back and pet them.
Also...
Steal all the dragon eggs!
A friend used the 'mating in human form' as the explanation for 'good' Dragons, with Evil Dragons being those further from any human ancestor. Her game's Dragons were vaguely protection mentors, etc. to humans, and only Golds were really nice guys. Human-born children had to discover their heritage and then choose to take up the role of sensei to mortals. Oh, the biggest Dragons ran 20+ feet long and rarely approached elephants in size.
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I would generally agree with Set's take on the birth itself however, since animal bodies are pretty much purpose-built for their evolved form of reproduction. No dragon eggs coming out of a human/humanoid body in my mind... and yeah, I avoided those "boobs on Tieflings" debates, too...
That's more realistic, for sure. Mammals don't have the gear to produce yolks, white, or eggshell. Realism isn't always the best option, though. A female character of mine in a light-hearted campaign got knocked up by a dragon and had to ask the Tengu in the party for advice in caring for eggs. It was a fun moment.
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Now, try to apply all this to gods/goddesses and Lovecraftian creatures.
I think I've seen enough Japanese TV to know where this is going...
It's interesting how you chose to negotiate the problem (Dragons turning into humanoids to mate) while I would have considered an entirely different solution -- polymorphing disrupts pregnancies (lets just call it scrambling the eggs, shall we?) ... it's a lot easier to have the pregnant dragon or humanoid not free to change shape during gestation and even has significance within context of a story -- "why isn't our friend dragoning out anymore when there are such serious threats around? ... Oh." :D
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polymorphing disrupts pregnancies (lets just call it scrambling the eggs, shall we?)
Outside of the OPs very specific setting restrictions, it probably shouldn't, 'though. Polymorphing doesn't have any game effect on intestinal parasites, skin mites, mitochondria, e coli in your intestines, and the tens of thousands of other little critters living in and on the average person that may or may not be considered 'part of them.' It's not even a reliable means to get rid of fleas or ticks or tapeworms (or rot grubs or green slime infestation).
With the 1e concept of 'system shock survival rolls' removed from the game, polymorphing is no longer associated with great physical trauma.
A baby, connected via the umbilecal cord to the characters digestive and circulatory systems is much *more* a 'part of' the mother than the various critters living in her digestive tract, so it should be even *more* likely to polymorph safely with her than *her clothing* or *her earrings* or *her tattoos.*
Indeed, a wizard, witch or sorceress polymorphing frequently while pregnant might even serve as justification for her child having some sort of trait or knack in that direction, such as having +1 CL when using polymorphing magic on himself or something, as his tiny developing body was mashed around like silly putty while he was still in the womb, and retains some leftover 'elasticity.'
And that's why I'm so flexible.
:O
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Mammals don't have the gear to produce yolks, white, or eggshell.The platypus disagrees with you.
All right, mammals can't produce yolk, white, or eggshell, aside from Monotremes, those creatures so crazy that when they were introduced to Europe some people thought they were just bits of other animals sewn together.
I know that this is an older thread, but I'm going to post anyway. I have a PC that has been ... transfigured into a large human because of a magic item that increased her size proportionately by 1 foot each time it affected her. There's no way for her to become her normal size again, so I tempted to have her meet with a Wood Giant and ... go to town. When the pair of them have kids, would the child be a half-giant because of the human heritage or a full giant because they're both large creatures? If the kid is a half-giant, where could I find race stats for it?
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Macdunwald: I would have it be half giant, as her creature type is still humanoid (human) (or similar). Casting enlarge person doesn't change your type either. There is a half-giant in the 3pp book Psionics Unleashed, although it is naturally psionic to some extent. Otherwise I'd say use the race builder in Advanced Race Guide to make something suitable.
Thank you all for your input in this thread, it's been very helpful!
It was the official stance of game designers in v3.5 Eberron that shapechangers had to stay in the same shape during pregnancy or else terminate the fetus. The issue came up on account of the campaign settings ever so popular changelings.
I am a firm believer that a dragon mixing it up with another creature would produce half-dragon offspring.