Sell me on (Improved) Familiar vs Bonded Object


Advice

1 to 50 of 82 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

So the one glaring weakness with being a Wizard is the phrase, "If only I had prepared X today!"

So a familiar grants you some sort of bonus, usually very minor (+4 Init and, arguably, +2 Fort being the exceptions), and allows you to cast your touch spells through it.
Improved Familiar replaces the list with more powerful creatures, but you lose out on the minor bonus for... what exactly? A CR 2 creature instead of a CR 1/2? That's still not very impressive after, what, 4th-5th level?

Bonded Object allows you to bypass that one weakness I just discussed. On paper, that seems 1000x times better than a familiar. And yet, when I look around on the forums here, familiars almost always tend to be more popular.

Am I missing something?


Yes, you are missing quite a bit. Some improved familiars allow you to effectively cast extra spells (they have spell-like abilities which can be quite nice). Also remember that just about every single knowledge check is doubled since your familiar can make one too.

Finally, one bit of improved familiar cheese is nearly capable of breaking the game.

- Gauss

Edit: oh, and most improved familiars can use wands. :D


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Neo2151 wrote:

So the one glaring weakness with being a Wizard is the phrase, "If only I had prepared X today!"

So a familiar grants you some sort of bonus, usually very minor (+4 Init and, arguably, +2 Fort being the exceptions), and allows you to cast your touch spells through it.
Improved Familiar replaces the list with more powerful creatures, but you lose out on the minor bonus for... what exactly? A CR 2 creature instead of a CR 1/2? That's still not very impressive after, what, 4th-5th level?

Bonded Object allows you to bypass that one weakness I just discussed. On paper, that seems 1000x times better than a familiar. And yet, when I look around on the forums here, familiars almost always tend to be more popular.

Am I missing something?

Concentration check when not having access to your bonded item.

It won't be problem most of the time, but lots of people prefer to minimize weaknesses and bonded object is serious potential weakness.


Well im not nearly experienced as most people here, but i went familiar because losing your bonded item seemed like a pretty bad thing. That high concentration check for casting without was a big deterrant.

Plus if you get the right improved familiar they can use wands and such from what ive seen from several threads.

If your familiar dies there really isnt a downside except the cost of getting a new one. Having your bonded item lost/destroyed incurs a hefty concentration check. If sunder or item theft is common in your games a familiar may be a safer bet.


Another pair of thumbs for UMD and wands... Mephits are very nice

EDIT: Leave a spell slot open so you don't have that "I wish I prepared XXX spell today" or make scrolls :D


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Neo2151 wrote:
Am I missing something?

Two words: action economy.

A few more words: having a secondary character around, with its own personality and its own motivations is just fun. You don't get that from a magic stick.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
VRMH wrote:
A few more words: having a secondary character around, with its own personality and its own motivations is just fun. You don't get that from a magic stick.

Have your stick speaking with you at half the price.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Action economy is the big one. You always have a partner to aid another your skill checks. Many improved familiars can use wands or command word items. Delivering touch spells can be used to buff your allies from across the battlefield, especially if your familiar has a fly speed. Witches can use thier familiar to heal allies at range. Tiny familiars are usually very good at stealth and make decent scouts (this falls off at higher levels unless you put points into stealth and perception).

In a desperate situation you can throw them into melee. They can aid another allies' attacks and AC. You can use them to try and use up the enemiy's AoO, which might let you get a spell off in melee or run away. Not the most ideal use, but better a dead familiar than a dead wizard. Even with half wizard hp, the familiar can likely soak one hit, and many improved versions have DR.

If you change your mindset from "skill bonus that can die" to "very fragile cohort" you start seeing a lot of potential uses.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You can get both by being a wizard and taking two feats, Skill Focus: Knowledge (smurfs) and Eldritch Heritage (Arcane).


Certain Improved Familiars are virtually indestructible or possess significant powers. Inevitable Arbiter and Silvanshee are perfect examples. The Arbiter has Regeneration/Chaos. Silvanshee has HD-scaling Lay on Hands. Ho-ly crap.


Serisan: They nerfed the Silvanshee. It is now written so that it's Lay on Hands remains that of a level 2 paladin. Sorry.

The arbiter is still nearly indestructible. :)

- Gauss


The familiar just using aid another means a +2 on all non-combat skill checks (remember, it uses your ranks). Not to mention you can use aid another in combat (although it is inefficient).

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The base familiars give you Skill Focus (Blank) or Improved (Save) and Alertness, Thats 2 Feats.

They can deliver touch spells, great for buffing allies and sometimes useful for debufing enemies.

You can cast any personal spell on them. That means POLYMORPH!!! Form of the Giant, Dragonform, Beastform and Elemental Body. It can become your personal flying mount or your meat-shield if you put the good buffs on it.


So, bascially, everyone here states, that "bonded item" and familiar aren't equal. Why isn't there any way to make the bonded object more adequate compared to the familiar?

Like, granting it sentience with level-dependent increasing int scores. Why not increase it's power just as the familiar gains hp, nat armour, feats/special abilities?

Why isn't there a punishment when the familiar dies, when there is a punishment for not having the bonded object around?

All in all, the whole thing seems really not well balanced for being the same class ability...


Heinrich Krebs wrote:

So, bascially, everyone here states, that "bonded item" and familiar aren't equal. Why isn't there any way to make the bonded object more adequate compared to the familiar?

Like, granting it sentience with level-dependent increasing int scores. Why not increase it's power just as the familiar gains hp, nat armour, feats/special abilities?

Why isn't there a punishment when the familiar dies, when there is a punishment for not having the bonded object around?

All in all, the whole thing seems really not well balanced for being the same class ability...

Because there are more options in this game that are not balanced against one another than are balanced against one another.


Hi Neo2151.

As many of these fine ladies and gentlemen have pointed out, familiars rock. Bonded items are all well and good, but they present a potential, detrimental weakness.

As the old truism goes: "Wizards shine when they come prepared". This would lead one to believe that the Bonded Object would be better for the adventuring wizard than a familiar, but I have found it to be the other way around.

A raven familiar is an invaluable scout from the get-go, able to easily scout out the land and the path travelled, and report back loooong in advance, if it spots any trouble.

The greensting scorpion has +15 stealth out of the door, and can comfortably scout out dungeons and buildings. You can communicate with it from level 5 and onward, and at that level, it can still take 10 on its stealth check, and remain completely undetected most of the time. Alternatively you can get magic that permits you to speak to your familiar and do this trick as early as level 1.

The point is familiars make excellent scouts, and potentially provide a host of useful abilities. SLAs, Low Light Vision, Darkvision, Scent, different movement types, and its own set of skills it can combo together with yours.

They can provide an extra pair of eyes and an extra mind to solve puzzles or provide input in discussion. In short, familiars are awesome!

So I -could- go into the dungeon, find out it's full of ogres, and then quickly get a suitable spell out(via my bonded object), -IF- I got such a spell in my spellbook.

OR, I could let my buddy scout for me, learn that the dungeon -is- full ogres in advance, and then inform my party so I am certain I -will- have the right spells prepared(Or I can get them), as will my fellow casters, and my martially inclined allies will have their polearms out, so we can avoid AoO's. Victory for team adventurer :D

-Nearyn


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Has no one had a familiar kidnapped and held for ransom? Or was that just me?


Bonded objects do scale -- anextraone of your highest level spells of your choice at the time of casting is really good (consider how much a high-level pearl of power costs....), , as is the cheaper enchantments on it.

Some improved familiars have powerful abilities -- most notably, commune, but an extra intelligent mind acting and commenting, extra actions (many improved familiars can use wands, which helps A LOT with the "we need X" problem, not to mention emergency buffs and dispenses in combat), and the scouting ability, are all very handy.


Neo2151 wrote:

So the one glaring weakness with being a Wizard is the phrase, "If only I had prepared X today!"

So a familiar grants you some sort of bonus, usually very minor (+4 Init and, arguably, +2 Fort being the exceptions), and allows you to cast your touch spells through it.
Improved Familiar replaces the list with more powerful creatures, but you lose out on the minor bonus for... what exactly? A CR 2 creature instead of a CR 1/2? That's still not very impressive after, what, 4th-5th level?

Bonded Object allows you to bypass that one weakness I just discussed. On paper, that seems 1000x times better than a familiar. And yet, when I look around on the forums here, familiars almost always tend to be more popular.

Am I missing something?

Treantmonk liked familiars more than boned objects.

My Raven familiars were always pretty useful. Bonded object creates a weakness for your wizard.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Familiars are cool.

That's what it's always come down to for me.


When Familiars die don't wizards suffer the same Concentration Check to cast spells?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Marthkus wrote:
Where does Eldritch Heritage say it doesn't give you a bloodline arcana? (Hint: It doesn't) All it says is that it gives you the first-level bloodline power. Is the animal companion a first-level bloodline power? Yes. Whatever else it is, is irrelevant.

As the man would himself admit, sometimes his preferences were just that, preferences. Guidelines, not holy writ. And occasionally, he'd actually get something wrong.

As I see it, both options have their merits and their weaknesses, one is not an auto-win and the other is not a auto-loose.

In the end OP, it's not our job to sell you on EITHER choice (unless there's a commission for me somewhere in the deal). Make your own decision, and buy what you will.


LazarX wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Where does Eldritch Heritage say it doesn't give you a bloodline arcana? (Hint: It doesn't) All it says is that it gives you the first-level bloodline power. Is the animal companion a first-level bloodline power? Yes. Whatever else it is, is irrelevant.

As the man would himself admit, sometimes his preferences were just that, preferences. Guidelines, not holy writ. And occasionally, he'd actually get something wrong.

As I see it, both options have their merits and their weaknesses, one is not an auto-win and the other is not a auto-loose.

In the end OP, it's not our job to sell you on EITHER choice (unless there's a commission for me somewhere in the deal). Make your own decision, and buy what you will.

I don't think I every said that...


Jodokai wrote:
When Familiars die don't wizards suffer the same Concentration Check to cast spells?

Nope


You smell that? That is a year old zombie. Someone bring the inquisitor, there has been a necromancer loose again. Oh, and fire, you can always use fire.


FAQ wrote:

Can my animal companion or familiar wear or use magic items?

It is intended that animal companions or familiars can not activate magic items. An animal companion could benefit from an item with a continuous magical effect like an amulet of natural armor if its master equipped the item for the animal companion. Animal companions of any type may not use manufactured weapons.

So familiars can't use magic wands.

FAQ wrote:

Can an Arcane Bonded Item be upgraded?

A character with the arcane bond class feature may create a bond with any item he owns, either magical or mundane, as long as the item falls within the categories permitted by the arcane bond ability (the cost for bonding with a new item still applies). If a caster later wishes to upgrade an existing bonded item, he may do so for the cost (not price) of the final item as listed in the item's statblock.

Although it's a typo in the CRB, yes, Arcane Bonded Items can be upgraded at cost, and without possessing the Create Item Feat.

It could be argued, although it does not explicity state, that the loss of one's familiar would require Concentration Checks in order to successfully cast spells, as that familiar is one's "Arcane Bond".


Quote:
So familiars can't use magic wands.

That's a PFS specific rule, which has it's own exception for a small list anyways. PFS has lots of specific rules that aren't Core RAW.

Not appropriate for a general PRPG Advice thread, especially when you quote a generic "FAQ" without clarifying it is PFS specific.

Quote:
It could be argued, although it does not explicity state, that the loss of one's familiar would require Concentration Checks

The rules never discuss Concentration Checks for missing "Arcane Bonds", they discuss that for "Bonded Items" only.

It's also not explicitly stated that missing your shoes or slippers means you need to make a Concentration Check to cast spells.

Quote:

So, bascially, everyone here states, that "bonded item" and familiar aren't equal.

Why isn't there any way to make the bonded object more adequate compared to the familiar?

Bonded Items can be great, even with their downsides. That doesn't mean Familiars aren't also great.

The OP asked people to sell him on the value of Familiars, which they did. Doesn't mean that taking Bonded Items is not legit, although the spontaneous aspect is of more relative value to a Wizard than a Sorceror, for whom that aspect is superfluous and it's basically just a bonus spell slot. Plenty of players aren't good at using, or aren't inclined to make good use of a Familiar to it's best potential. You can always learn to play different, but barring that, it's pretty easy to get the full potential out of a Bonded Item as long as you cast spells and can take advantage of the magical crafting discount, it doesn't involve play-style changes.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Familiars can make great bait for spells like reckless infatuation. Nothing quite like watching a mesmerized, debuffed humanoid fruitlessly chase after your flying faerie familiar though an area of entangle or other hazard.

Lantern Lodge

Familiars are awesome for the reasons noted above and there quite good reasons.

Bonded objects are good depending on the game style and what you take. For example i almost always go with a bonded object because my DM likes to kill companions/familiars/horses. I also pick bonded object because the games i play in are not 1-4 encounters a day but on average 6-9. Wizards have a limited number of spells known at any given time and having a bonded object like a gun with decent dex is very nice, same with a bonded object AoMF if your the type that likes to go with natural attacks from polymorphs with decent str. It all comes down to the game you are playing in.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

Is there a way to have two Arcane Bond items? Such as a wand and a staff like Harry Dresden.

Liberty's Edge

You could have 1 of each (Familiar and Item) though I don't think you could have 2 of one.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No, you can't have either. You can only have ONE bond. Period. Harry Dresden is not a Pathfinder character, he's a Television character.

Liberty's Edge

LazarX wrote:
No, you can't have either. You can only have ONE bond. Period. Harry Dresden is not a Pathfinder character, he's a Television character.

Arcane Duelist gets a bonded weapon and only a bonded weapon, if you took elderich heritage before 5th level and nabbed a familiar you would have both.


Wizard's Arcane Bond in general and Bonded Item specifically doesn't have any special restriction on how it interacts with Arcane Bond/Bonded Item from multiple classes.

The Wizard Familiar specifically does have this line:
Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.

Arcane Sorceror Arcane Bond says: Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.

Eldritch Heritage is based on the Sorceror ability, and as it says, that ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and bonded item, regardless of when you gain each ability.

Serpentine Bloodline Familiar does not have that limitation, so could simultaneously exist with a Wizard Bonded Item but not Familiar (it would stack instead).
Eagle Domain Familiar could also exist simultaneously with a Wizard Bonded Item but not Familiar (it would stack instead).
A Sea Singer Bard's Familiar could exist simultaneously with a Wizard Bonded Item but not Familiar (it would stack instead).
None of those invoke any sort of "Arcane Bond" ability.

Arcane Duelist Bard Bonded Item specifically says "gains the arcane bond ability as a wizard",
but I'm still not sure there is anything preventing also having a Wizard Familiar exist simultaneously,
albeit specifically being the same ability as the Wizard Arcane Bond (just with a limitation),
unlike the above cases which are not Arcane Bond, does seem to introduce a further possibility that it wouldn't work.

All those are multiclasses which limits the effectiveness of both Familiar and Bonded Item.

Dark Archive

Along the line of Improved Familiar, an Improved Arcane Bond feat that jazzed up the bonded item could be fun.

But the same could be said of many options that Pathfinder introduced. Feats that enhance or modify cleric Domain powers, wizard School powers or sorcerer Bloodline powers could be neat.

Pimpin' mah homebrew wizard AT all about the Arcane Bonded Objects; Master of Bonds.

Grand Lodge

I will say, as Quandary basically showed, that in PFS the Bonded Object vs. (Imp.) Familiar is a very real choice. With the nerf to familiars, and the fact that the average GM will kill your familiar in higher tier scenarios, but not that ring on your finger or that sheathe for your non-magical dagger on your hip.


@Set: Indeed, I've thought it's a shame that Sorcerors can take Eldritch Heritage to gain powers of other Bloodlines, but there is no Feats which let them expand upon or enhance their existing Bloodline, "Bloodline Plus" as it were. Closest thing to that theme is Dragon Disciple as a PrC, which is also a shame that there isn't similar PrCs for other Bloodlines, e.g. Demonic, Elemental, Celestial, etc. Also, that there haven't been any new Revelations released for existing Mysteries, to broaden their scope a bit while still staying true to the Mystery.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Quandary wrote:
Indeed, I've thought it's a shame that Sorcerors can take Eldritch Heritage to gain powers of other Bloodlines, but there is no Feats which let them expand upon or enhance their existing Bloodline, "Bloodline Plus" as it were. Closest thing to that theme is Dragon Disciple as a PrC, which is also a shame that there isn't similar PrCs for other Bloodlines, e.g. Demonic, Elemental, Celestial, etc.

Yeah, PrCs for each bloodline would be cool. Feats that boost things would be really nifty as well.


SeeleyOne wrote:

Is there a way to have two Arcane Bond items? Such as a wand and a staff like Harry Dresden.

As always talk with your GM, while it may not be intended this way, the gm's I've know always enjoy story over rules. So if you're willing to split a bonded items bonuses between two items or spend feats and the like, id allow it.

Dark Archive

SeeleyOne wrote:
Is there a way to have two Arcane Bond items? Such as a wand and a staff like Harry Dresden.

Dresden's items seem more like the old 'spell focus' or 'keyed' items from 1st edition D&D (introduced in the Dragon), which, instead of granting a wizard another spell, simply allowed him to convert his memorized spells of that level into a specific spell. So his 'wand of fireballs' would allow him to 'burn' a fly spell or a lightning bolt to cast a fireball, as if he'd memorized fireball instead in that slot.

That sort of thing might be 'cheaper' than a standard arcane bonded item (which allows him to cast pretty much any spell in his book), and might be acceptable as something your GM might allow with a feat or as a class replacement for arcane bond.

That sort of thing might fit particularly well with Specialists, with an Evoker having a bracelet that allows him to convert any 1st level prepared evocation spell into magic missile, allowing him to not bother to prepare magic missile, or an Illusionist having a ring that lets him convert any prepared 1st level illusion spell into silent image.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Neo2151 wrote:

So the one glaring weakness with being a Wizard is the phrase, "If only I had prepared X today!"

So a familiar grants you some sort of bonus, usually very minor (+4 Init and, arguably, +2 Fort being the exceptions), and allows you to cast your touch spells through it.
Improved Familiar replaces the list with more powerful creatures, but you lose out on the minor bonus for... what exactly? A CR 2 creature instead of a CR 1/2? That's still not very impressive after, what, 4th-5th level?

Bonded Object allows you to bypass that one weakness I just discussed. On paper, that seems 1000x times better than a familiar. And yet, when I look around on the forums here, familiars almost always tend to be more popular.

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing the "Improved Familiar" Feat.

This allows you to take a familiar who has hands and can (potentially) use wands, throw tanglefoot bags, do healing checks, aid another, throw a net, etc. It's like an extra action every round.

On top of that many improved familiars have very nice spell like abilities, and often make great scouts (sometimes with natural invisibility, good stealth scores and flight)


Quandary wrote:
@Set: Indeed, I've thought it's a shame that Sorcerors can take Eldritch Heritage to gain powers of other Bloodlines, but there is no Feats which let them expand upon or enhance their existing Bloodline, "Bloodline Plus" as it were. Closest thing to that theme is Dragon Disciple as a PrC, which is also a shame that there isn't similar PrCs for other Bloodlines, e.g. Demonic, Elemental, Celestial, etc. Also, that there haven't been any new Revelations released for existing Mysteries, to broaden their scope a bit while still staying true to the Mystery.

Sounds like you need to fill the gap: write some! The Dragon Disciple abilities should translate very easily into Demon Disciple, Angelic Disciple, etc.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Treantmonk wrote:
Neo2151 wrote:

So the one glaring weakness with being a Wizard is the phrase, "If only I had prepared X today!"

So a familiar grants you some sort of bonus, usually very minor (+4 Init and, arguably, +2 Fort being the exceptions), and allows you to cast your touch spells through it.
Improved Familiar replaces the list with more powerful creatures, but you lose out on the minor bonus for... what exactly? A CR 2 creature instead of a CR 1/2? That's still not very impressive after, what, 4th-5th level?

Bonded Object allows you to bypass that one weakness I just discussed. On paper, that seems 1000x times better than a familiar. And yet, when I look around on the forums here, familiars almost always tend to be more popular.

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing the "Improved Familiar" Feat.

This allows you to take a familiar who has hands and can (potentially) use wands, throw tanglefoot bags, do healing checks, aid another, throw a net, etc. It's like an extra action every round.

On top of that many improved familiars have very nice spell like abilities, and often make great scouts (sometimes with natural invisibility, good stealth scores and flight)

Monkeys have hands. At 10th level, they even gain enough intelligence to become wizards! At which point they gain their own monkey familiars. Wizardception!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
No, you can't have either. You can only have ONE bond. Period. Harry Dresden is not a Pathfinder character, he's a Television character.

He's a book character, but your point still stands. Dresden is not Pathfinder.


Basically, you go for familiars if your goal is to break the game and items if your goal is to be a better wizard. Or if you can't afford to take improved familiar and craft wand.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I like bonded objects more, because it adds to your personal flexibility and saves you a magic item crafting feat (if you take a ring).

I personally regard the idea of familiars using wands as extreme min-max cheesing, so that alone puts me off of the idea of taking one. As a GM I've always hated the "so I'll roll my skill... and my familiar/animal companion also rolls my skill!" factor, which is another strike against them. Worries about the familiar getting caught in a stray fireball are another factor why I don't particularly like them.

I'll admit that the +4 initiative bonus of the Greensting Scorpion is good enough to even make me reconsider my stance a bit.


Used to be, when a familiar died, you had to make a rough Fort save or lose 1000 xp. Guess they got rid of that, eh?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Flashohol wrote:
LazarX wrote:
No, you can't have either. You can only have ONE bond. Period. Harry Dresden is not a Pathfinder character, he's a Television character.
Arcane Duelist gets a bonded weapon and only a bonded weapon, if you took elderich heritage before 5th level and nabbed a familiar you would have both.

By taking the arcane bond as an arcane duelist, you've rendered yourself ineligible for the familiar no matter what you take.


Familiars grant the feat Alertness for free, giving you a +2 to that all important stat, in addition to that familiar boon. No matter how you slice it, the familiar ends up being the equivalent of about 2 feats. I'll take consistently going 1st in every fight over one spontaneous spell any day.


Personally I prefer the bonded item. It's saved me on a couple occasions in the campaign I'm in and in other cases just made the situation a bit easier.

That being said, having it stolen from you can suck. However, there are ways to minimize this problem such as choosing the ring and wearing gloves over the ring. Makes it less noticeable to enemies. In any case, if a DM wants to go after your bonded item, chances are they'd be willing to go after your familiar(s) as well.

Having a familiar does have some serious advantages as mentioned above, probably more so than the bonded item. For me though, pulling a necessary rabbit out of the hat comes in handy.

1 to 50 of 82 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Sell me on (Improved) Familiar vs Bonded Object All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.