You probably should not post anything negative about Gary here unless you want to end up like me.
This seems a bit odd to me. Having skimmed over the last couple of pages of comments, it seems that quite a few people are annoyed and grumbling about the delays. Doesn't really seem like an unpopular viewpoint at the moment.
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Throne of Night made it back on to Paizo's "Top Downloads From Other Companies" list this week.
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Well, regardless of the reasons and whatnot, I plan on running the first part of the adventure as Gary did at PaizoCon, at the Gamesday our convention is having next month. I was hoping to get a few pregens from Gary, if I don't hear from him, I've got a back up. Someone made up pregens for Pathfinder Society using the standard 20-pt buy, and did one mix of every base race and class. None of them have names or alignments, but that shouldn't be too difficult... right? Anyways, was thinking of changing them a little bit as per the alternate dwarf racial stats but WITHOUT making them spend a trait on it (if tieflings can have 10 different stats for free, so can dwarves).
Figure I'll use the bard, cleric, fighter, monk, ranger, and sorcerer (earth elemental bloodline).
The first thing Gary did once the cash from Kickstarter went in was a long safari.How is that a fair comment? Does your work scrutinize what you do with your paycheck? Do you know if he used his personal $ savings or the kickstarter's $?
My office generally doesn't pay me before I do any work - and if they did, then I went on holiday rather than turn up for work, I would soon be out of a job.
Of course, we canot know for a certainty how he paid for his safari, but considering he's just cashed in a Kickstarter projecting that accumulated $20,000.00 more than he allegedly needed to produce the six books, I consider it likely that's where the funds originated.
Figure I'll use the bard, cleric, fighter, monk, ranger, and sorcerer (earth elemental bloodline).
No rogue-like class for traps/sneaking? (Unless the bard/ranger has these bases covered...)
I think Gary's silence says everything.
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I'm so tired of all the people complaining. If you back a project on Kickstarter, you should go in understanding that you are NOT guaranteed anything.
Decide to help out a project or don't, and maybe the project will get completed, or it won't. But that money is gone. You gave it away, freely, without any guarantees you would get something in return.
And if you can't afford it, then maybe you shouldn't have backed the project in the first place.
From the KS page itself, to help people understand what their situation truly is:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability
Who is responsible for completing a project as promised?
It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project. Kickstarter is not involved in the development of the projects themselves.
Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it.
Accept that the money is lost to you, and maybe, just maybe, if he finishes the project, you will be pleasantly surprised you received something.
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I'm so tired of all the people complaining.
I'm not. If you don't speak up about problems, they don't get fixed. Even if the fix is 'no one backs his Kickstarter ever again' instead of 'everyone gets the rewards from the Kickstarters they pledged for'.
What I am tired of is people running down human beings for being human.
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Figure I'll use the bard, cleric, fighter, monk, ranger, and sorcerer (earth elemental bloodline).No rogue-like class for traps/sneaking? (Unless the bard/ranger has these bases covered...)
The pre-made ranger that I found trades Track for Trapfinding. Although, you're right. I should probably choose a full rogue for the group. Could swap out the ranger for that.
I'm so tired of all the people complaining. If you back a project on Kickstarter, you should go in understanding that you are NOT guaranteed anything.
Accept that the money is lost to you, and maybe, just maybe, if he finishes the project, you will be pleasantly surprised you received something.
The money is not a significant cost to me - but I think it's important that other potential customers be aware that I didn't get what I paid for. That's part of the deal of Kickstarter - if you don't fulfill your obligations, you lose credibility as a company.
What other kickstarters? Do you have any evidence that he is starting or planning on another kickstarter? Or are you just trolling?He's done one other Kickstarter that I'm aware of, for the Creature Cards. I know that I have never received what I purchased from him there, and that's been quite some time (over a year). Some people did get their product, but I know I never have. I attempted to contact him about it, and have not received a reply for about four months now.
I received my Creature Cards. Both decks. Also I had misplaced or otherwise missed the link to download the deck in pdf format, I sent him an email, and he had sent me the download link. Granted, that was around March or May (I really cannot recall when it was), but he did, in fact, get back to me promptly.
I admit that I like to have updates, but conjecture on the level that I have seen here is too much. Outright defamation crosses the line.
Why doesn't everybody who has to defend Gary just let him come on here and defend his actions. He sure had no problem answering questions and giving updates until he received the kickstarter money.
I know that. Gary should defend himself and if he chooses not to do so then other people need to stop defending him. He is a grown man and needs to stop letting others speak for him.
I'm so tired of all the people complaining. If you back a project on Kickstarter, you should go in understanding that you are NOT guaranteed anything.
Decide to help out a project or don't, and maybe the project will get completed, or it won't. But that money is gone. You gave it away, freely, without any guarantees you would get something in return.
And if you can't afford it, then maybe you shouldn't have backed the project in the first place.
From the KS page itself, to help people understand what their situation truly is:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability
Who is responsible for completing a project as promised?
It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project. Kickstarter is not involved in the development of the projects themselves.Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it.
Accept that the money is lost to you, and maybe, just maybe, if he finishes the project, you will be pleasantly surprised you received something.
If you're going to quote Kickstarter FAQs, please take the time to list ALL of the relevant ones.
Such as:
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I am a backer of this project, in the amount of $150.
I understand that the estimated delivery date of the finished product is March 2014, so as of now, I'm not worried.
The people who have put money toward this project are entitled to something in return. What you are describing in your statement is not accurate. Please do not confuse or mislead the people who have funded this project.
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I'm so tired of all the people complaining. If you back a project on Kickstarter, you should go in understanding that you are NOT guaranteed anything.
Decide to help out a project or don't, and maybe the project will get completed, or it won't. But that money is gone. You gave it away, freely, without any guarantees you would get something in return.
And if you can't afford it, then maybe you shouldn't have backed the project in the first place.
From the KS page itself, to help people understand what their situation truly is:
Kickstarter Basics: Accountability
Who is responsible for completing a project as promised?
It's the project creator's responsibility to complete their project. Kickstarter is not involved in the development of the projects themselves.Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it.
Accept that the money is lost to you, and maybe, just maybe, if he finishes the project, you will be pleasantly surprised you received something.
If you're going to quote Kickstarter FAQs, please take the time to list ALL of the relevant ones.
Such as:
Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.
I am a backer of this project, in the amount of $150.
I understand that the estimated delivery date of the...
You're right, legally, Gary is obligated to refund you what you paid him, but KS isn't going to help you get that money back. Feel free to take Gary to small claims court. Maybe you'll get to make an appearance on Judge Judy :)
People are better off treating this like gambling. Bet the money, hope luck's on your side, but the expectation should be that the money is gone. After all, you aren't buying anything!
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Regarding all of the above, truthfully, no one should be concerned about anything until April 1st, 2014 arrives. That's the date that's been given to us. If by that exact date, we still haven't heard a peep, then fine. Until then, the mini goals he's given himself shouldn't be counted against him.
No one should be concerned till April 1st 2014? Get real.
The guy has not put out even the second book of six by now (after 9 whole months), measly three month away from that date.
How will he put out 5 books in 3 months? I´ll tell you how: no way!!
This thing is vaporware imo. And if not that then it´ll be Far West the second coming. With this pace (1 book = 9+ months) you´ll be playing the campaign 2018 at the earliest.
As far as I´m concerned FMG is dead as a business. I´ll back no more kickstarter and I´ll buy no more product from them. And that´s what you should do too if you are as disappointed by their behaviour as I am.
Maybe kickstarter is a gamble with no obligations for the creator of the campaign as some want to tell us (and it has been correctly stated that it is not) but even then I as a customer do not accept being treated like s%%@ (completely left in the dark, no cummunication, no anwer to emails) as I am by FMG. But that´s something everyone has to decide for him-/herself.
BTW: The guy has time and money enough to back himself into more than a few kickstarter campaigns these last weeks but not 5 minutes to treat his financiers (yeah we are his damn bank only we do not get interest) a few lines of update? I can see why so many think him a great guy.....
I have kickstarted 4 different projects and all but one was very late in delivering. What was delivered I have been happy with every single time. They were very slow completing Way of the Wicked but it was awesome. Would I rather wait an extra 6 months or a year and get another fantastic product vs a rushed s!$!ty one? You bet I would. I have lots of other adventures I can run until it is ready.
I've got the pdf and some players. Any recommendations on party size?
I have kickstarted 4 different projects and all but one was very late in delivering. What was delivered I have been happy with every single time. They were very slow completing Way of the Wicked but it was awesome. Would I rather wait an extra 6 months or a year and get another fantastic product vs a rushed s*!*ty one? You bet I would. I have lots of other adventures I can run until it is ready.
There's a big old difference between a train that's gonna' be a bit late and a train that's never gonna' arrive cos' the driver has got out and gone on a bloody safari. :(
I understand the risk inherent in backing a Kickstarter, but that doesn't make it any easier to stomach having been taken for a mug.
John Richards 632, I strongly suggest you find another AP to play, one that actually continues beyond the first book.
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I've got the pdf and some players. Any recommendations on party size?
Both of Gary's adventures have been built for 4 players. I'd say 4-5 should be fine without having to increase difficulty.
I have to agree that you should hold off playing this until at least Book 2 shows up. Maybe Book 3.@mikeawmids and everyone who keeps bringing up the safari -- There is something that I need to point to everyone because no one has picked up on the obvious yet.
1) Safaris are not cheap, no, but they also take a while to book. My sister went on one two years ago, and she had to book it six months in advance in order to get a spot on the trip. You also have to put a down payment on it. Gary couldn't have just left on the safari on a whim. He also couldn't have known that he would have made enough money from the Kickstarter to pay for both himself and his wife for their anniversary. Again, safaris and anniversaries take time to plan. In advance.
2) And this is the important one, Book 2 takes place IN A JUNGLE! I can not stress that enough, and yet no one has picked up on this. Gary's said that Book 2 was being written alongside Book 1. He's also brought up that he had to do research just for the Fungal Jungle.
Am I defending him? No. There's no white knight here. Communication is a big thing, and it's not done well. It's not even existent these past couple of months. But everyone is quick to point out the safari thing. Why? It's not relevant. It's not like he left the country and is staying at the reserve in hiding.
Writers go out and do research. Sometimes for weeks at a time. Some of my favourite authors and mangaka will announce that they'll be away for up to a month, and everything will be on hold until then. Why? Research to make things more authentic.
Way of the Wicked Book 2 had the same kind of research from a trip he'd taken years ago. The mountains were explained in such detail that you felt like you were there. On this forum he's even linked a few Google image pics to show us even more what he'd experienced and give us a better idea of the majesty of what the players are walking into.
Ah, I did not realise he had gone on one of those fungal safaris. I take it all back. :p
I've got the pdf and some players. Any recommendations on party size?Both of Gary's adventures have been built for 4 players. I'd say 4-5 should be fine without having to increase difficulty.
I have to agree that you should hold off playing this until at least Book 2 shows up. Maybe Book 3
I would be surprised if the group survives past book one without someone deciding that they have something else they want to play.
I would be surprised if the group survives past book one without someone deciding that they have something else they want to play.
Why?
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I would be surprised if the group survives past book one without someone deciding that they have something else they want to play.
I'm a little curious about this response as well.
The most irritating thing about Mr. McBride's lack of communication is that it's become the focus of discussion instead of what a GREAT adventure ToN Book 1 really is.
Seriously, if your players liked the exploration nature of Kingmaker Book 1, ToN will be right up their alley. A large section of Darklands to explore with no less than three mini-dungeons. Defending a village for a bit of mass combat action and finishing up with a more traditional dungeon crawl. I'd say there's a bit of everything in here (even some great RP opportunities)
This is seriously a great adventure.
But - as others have said - I'd be patient and wait for more parts to come out.
I would be surprised if the group survives past book one without someone deciding that they have something else they want to play.
Also, don't underestimate the allure of playing an Evil (if drow) group of PCs.
My group is half-way through Fire Mountain Game's 'Way of the Wicked' adventure path and have expressed they "never want to be a good-guy group again!"
I would be surprised if the group survives past book one without someone deciding that they have something else they want to play.I'm a little curious about this response as well.
The most irritating thing about Mr. McBride's lack of communication is that it's become the focus of discussion instead of what a GREAT adventure ToN Book 1 really is.
Seriously, if your players liked the exploration nature of Kingmaker Book 1, ToN will be right up their alley. A large section of Darklands to explore with no less than three mini-dungeons. Defending a village for a bit of mass combat action and finishing up with a more traditional dungeon crawl. I'd say there's a bit of everything in here (even some great RP opportunities)
This is seriously a great adventure.
But - as others have said - I'd be patient and wait for more parts to come out.
I am not sure why Nebish said that either.
You are right though, Jenner. The first book does look like a fun adventure. I think that the reason no one is talking about it is because no one is playing it. Everyone is waiting to see a few more books before they even consider starting it.
So...together we await this Throne of Night.
Given the fact it made one of the top downloads, I'd say it is probably being played... just not by the relatively small and vocal group who frequent the boards.
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I tend to agree with Weslocke, that even though it might be heavily downloaded (and so far looks great), most folks just aren't playing it yet. I usually won't start an AP until I have at least the majority of the series in my hand... preferably the entire thing.
But put me in the crowd of anxiously awaiting the next installments. :)
Skylancer4 is correct that the folks who post on the forums are just the tiniest and most vocal portions of Pathfinder players. I agree 100%.
It is assuredly being played. We are just not hearing about it yet. Hopefully soon we will. I think the topic of the conversation will turn to buzz about the AP just as soon as we do hear about it. I just think that many, many tables are holding off on starting this AP until they have more material for it and that is probably why we are hearing so little on the subject of how the AP performs in play yet. I am sincerely looking forward to hearing some examples from both Explorer and Overlord groups about how it played out for them. It looks like it could be every bit as good an AP as Kingmaker. I am anticipating book 2 will be just as good.
Way of the Wicked is excellent - the best published campaign I have DM'd in 20 years of gaming. Throne of Night looks excellent and I know our group will love it.
With the best will in the world 10 months was never going to be a realistic time frame and I took that in consideration. Having seen the quality of Way of the Wicked which suffered a few delays at the end I am reassured and confident that in time we will see book two and the rest of the product. Does it really matter if that is March or December.
I have seen the same two or three people jump on post after post constantly reminding us about the deadlines. It is getting a little tired. Us fanboys can be relentless and it would be a full time job trying to keep up. It may be pure speculation but I suspect Gary is waiting to have something to post before he responds. "Sorry guys its taking longer than I thought" isn't really going to benefit us that much and it won't satisfy the legal eagles threatening small claims court action. I would prefer Gary cracks on with writing the modules than writing on forums.
We are backers not shareholders. It wasn't a pre-order it was crowd-funding of a creative enterprise. It just so happens I'm about to generate a character for Razor Coast, by all accounts it looks worth the wait. Patience is a virtue and if ye have faith, then faith shall be given to ye.
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This Kickstarter has a couple of problems right out the gate. Firstly, it had a rather optimistic "delivery date". One that quite obviously has absolutely no chance of being met, or even being brushed up against closely. At the current rate of production, (assuming it actually resumes again), May 2018 would be more accurate.
Lots of Kickstarters fall prey to the stupidly optimistic "delivery date" problem. That I can forgive. But it's been over three months since Fire Mountain Games has had any sort of communication with backers. That, in my view, is unforgivable. If you're falling this far behind, TALK TO US. The Sword said " I would prefer Gary cracks on with writing the modules than writing on forums." I couldn't disagree more. It only takes a few minutes a week to come here (or better yet, the Kickstarter update posting system) and let us know that he is aware that he's behind schedule, but that it is still being worked on. That at least gives the backers some sort of vague confidence that he didn't just pocket the $40K and think "SUCKERS!!!"
With my group, things get started and seldom finished. Once bitten, twice shy.
Given the fact it made one of the top downloads, I'd say it is probably being played... just not by the relatively small and vocal group who frequent the boards.
Just wanted to drop by to say that I've seen three groups recently that are running it: For the Dwarves, both Reckless and Vov have been running games, as well as DM Gray on the Drow side.
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Got a Kickstarter update today:
It's been far too long since I've posted an update and I apologize for that. But I remain hard at work on your books.Throne of Night #2 will be completed by the end of this month and here are two more images from that book. The first is a magical warded dwarven door found within a long abandoned mine. What secrets lay beyond and how do you overcome the dwarves ward? <picture>
This is an ominous shrine to a murderous bat god. No doubt where there is a shrine, the god's followers can't be far. <picture>
And beyond Book Two...we are also hard at work on Book Three. Here is the cover and likely the only piece of art that involves much sky in the campaign. This is the exterior of the dwarven city of Dammerhall. <a really cool picture>
Another book that is art development is "Way of the Wicked Book Seven". One thing it will feature is new art for characters in the "Way of the Wicked" adventure path. For example, the triton oracle Nerianus in Book One: Knot of Thorns never received any art. That changes with Tales of Talingarde. Here, at last, is art for Nerianus. <picture>
More updates will come shortly. Thanks for your patience and your support.
Gary McBride
Fire Mountain Games
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I don't honestly know how to feel about this one.
One 1 hand I am glad for news and it rekindles my hope for the project, but on the other I have already been through all the stages of grieving and given up on the project.
I guess I will take any news as good and try to keep my small hopes alive that this will reach completion.
On the positive side - having accepted that the money I pledged was down the drain, any further fulfilment on this project will be a nice bonus :)
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To me the update without any meaningful apology or explanation was a let down. We still haven't received book one (they were supposed to be mailed "several weeks" after the pdf) and all we know about future instalments is that they're drawing some nice pictures.
This project has had terrible communication - that's its biggest failing. Being late is hardly surprising or unusual, but not explaining what's going on is inexcusable, in my view.
This is the most pathetic update I have ever seen. Didn't he say back in september that book two was almost done? He even starts this update exactly like the last. Why doesn't Gary bother to respond to questions? I think he is just too cowardly to come here anymore after he has lied and stole from the people here. Gary is only getting away with this because too many people just blindly support him.
