[Fire Mountain Games] Throne of Night


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Grand Lodge

Lava Child wrote:

Hi all, there's a great release for Pathfinder that has a ruined dwarven citadel infested with derro and worse, that is absolutely integratable into a underdark game. I did update it for the company, but that was after I ran and loved it. Levels 8-12. Check it out!

http://koboldpress.com/kpstore/product/halls-of-the-mountain-king-for-pathf inder-rpg/

Link was invalid for some reason.

Four-Yark-Four!
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Went in and fixed it though.
Halls of the Mountain King.

Grand Lodge

With writing up the show PCs for the convention, I couldn't help but notice a lot of lacking for them. Character creation was much easier for me when I did up the dwarves.
Also, why at 1st level do the drow get bless when they fight together, and prayer at 5 HD, yet nothing after? I'd think both bless and prayer when they fight at 10 HD, and then mass aid at 15 HD.

Just my two cents.


For those of you who are not aware, the contact links at the Fire Mountain Games Homepage have been disabled.

Dark Archive

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Weslocke wrote:

For those of you who are not aware, the contact links at the Fire Mountain Games Homepage have been disabled.

Thats funny.


Disabled? They work for me.


Do they?

I cannot get them to work.

Neither can several others.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Weslocke wrote:

Do they?

I cannot get them to work.

Neither can several others.

Contact links work for me. However, it is just an email address (which we know goes into a black hole).

Grand Lodge

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So I had mentioned before, that the cavernoivore would be a great monster to add to this, however, it was 3.5 and not yet converted. Well, I was bored last night and that's exactly what I did. This was much more difficult than I thought it would be because 3PP creations sometimes go way out there for mechanics. This was no exception. Also, it now had to conform to the PF Monster Creation rules set forth by the bestiaries. I'm relatively confident in my skills for this, as Sean K. Reynolds himself taught me how to properly read the tables, and what I should do when it comes to creation. Passed his online class and everything. *thumb's up*

So, here's my take on it, as well as the original (minus the second page that mentions the luminescence requiring a Spot check to determine if it's real or not, and the "Campaign" info).

And yes, I have no problem if Gary takes this. He's welcome to have a more expert-like person go over it with a fine tooth comb.

Considered putting it up on my blog, but figured I'll just put it here. Most people would be likely to see it. I'll probably put it up on my blog later.

Cavernoivore PF conversion:

Cavernivore
A huge and hungry underground reptile appears. Its large and ferocious maw, completely filled with sharp and jagged teeth, also has three luminescent tendrils which extend from its head and give off light.
CR 12
XP 19,200
N Huge magical beast
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +17
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DEFENSE
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AC 27, touch 10, flat-footed 26 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +17 natural)
hp 162 (12d10+96)
Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +6
----------------------------------
OFFENSE
----------------------------------
Speed 40 ft., climb 10 ft.
Melee bite +22 (4d8+18) and 2 claws +22 (2d6+6)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
----------------------------------
TACTICS
----------------------------------
Combat The cavernivore is a lazy beast and prefers to lie around and let its prey come to it. Consequently, it prefers to attack from a position of surprise.
As creatures close in on the cavernivore's location, make a Perception check for the cavernivore. If successful, it maneuvers its tendrils so that they remain out of sight. If the cavernivore fails its roll, creatures can identify the light source as a tendril with a successful DC 20 Perception check. If this roll is failed, the party is surprised when they turn the corner and come face to face with the creature. Unless creatures make a genuine effort to move silently and without a light source, the cavernivore is probably not surprised by their presence. For its surprise attack, the cavernivore uses its Power Attack feat to attempt to finish a victim off in one cruel bite.
Once in melee, the creature attacks with its powerful jaws, as well as its strong claws. Its light tendrils offer it little advantage in a fight, so it retracts them to ensure they are not injured. It uses its Power Attack against less armored opponents in order to kill them off sooner.
If its prey flees the battle, the creature only pursues if it has not downed a single victim. Otherwise, it stays and expends its energies eating and digesting those left behind.
----------------------------------
STATISTICS
----------------------------------
Str 34, Dex 14, Con 26, Int 5, Wis 11, Cha 13
Base Atk +12; CMB +26; CMD 38
Feats Alertness, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack
Skills Climb +24, Perception +17, Sense Motive +2, Stealth +16; Racial Modifiers +8 Climb, +8 Perception, +12 Stealth
SQ luminescence
----------------------------------
ECOLOGY
----------------------------------
Environment underground
Organization solitary or pair
Treasure standard
----------------------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
----------------------------------
Luminescence (Ex) The cavernivore has three long and flexible tendrils ending in luminescent glands. These glands give off a weak but constant full spectrum glow, each shedding bright light to a range of 30 feet and shadowy illumination to a range of 60 feet. The light resembles sunlight, but does not adversely affect sunlightsensitive creatures. The cavernivore cannot turn off or extinguish these lights, but it can cover its tendrils with its body as a move action and completely smother the light. It cannot hide unless its light is concealed. The tendrils can be targeted with sunder attacks. Each has 8 hp (separate from the cavernivore’s total hit points).

The creature has full control over these appendages, which can stretch out as far as 15 feet. The cavernivore spends its time deep underground, using its natural light source as a lure to lost visitors who are desperately seeking a path to the surface.
Cavernivores like to lurk around sharp corners in deep caverns. They hide their bodies around a corner, while their light tendrils extend into the main passage, giving the appearance of weak sunlight filtering through from above. When it hears prey approach, the monster slowly pulls its tendrils back around the bend in order to keep up the appearance of natural light. If all goes as planned, its victim is in for a nasty surprise when confronted with a solid wall of teeth.

A pursuing cavernivore is extremely terrifying. It moves at great speed through most caverns, and can climb better than most adventurers. The best way to elude one is to find a passageway too narrow for it to enter.

Campaign
This creature is at its best when used underground to lure a lost party of adventurers into its gaping maw. However, adventurers are not likely to fall for this trick more than once or twice. But there are other possibilities.
The cavernivore is famous for its light glands, which continue to glow for up to a week after the creature is killed. These glands are extremely valuable in spells and items that generate light or protect against the undead. If fresh, or preserved magically, the glands fetch a high price from the right buyer. Certain powerful items, such as the hammer of the sun, cannot be made at all without the glands of these creatures. Adventurers may need to make a quest underground in order to collect the materials to manufacture some important device. Of course, if the journey back takes more than a week, the party must solve some difficult issues with keeping the creature alive so that its glands can still be used for item creation.
As these creatures are relatively dim, they are occasionally dominated by other races. Urgoda, for example, have been known to bind these creatures and use them as guardians for their strongholds.

Original 3.5 version
[IMG]http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/cybervid/Cavernoivore%203.5%20version .jpg[/IMG]

Grand Lodge

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Like yesterday, here's a converted creature that you can put into the game. The DC's are a little high, but then it's save for half, and it doesn't have much in the way of standard attacks, so it's fine.

This is a creature that absolutely should be found in the mushroom forest. Especially if you're playing good or neutral aligned characters. Maybe not so much for the drow. Although, that could be an interesting turn of events as well.

Of course, just because the original is large-sized, doesn't mean that's what the PCs have to find. It's more than possible to find huge-sized ones to fit larger parties.

Blessed Ring PF conversion:

Blessed Ring
CR 6
XP 2400
LG Large plant
Init +4; Senses blindsight (30 ft.), low-light vision; Perception +12
----------------------------------
DEFENSE
----------------------------------
AC 19, touch 9, flatfooted 19 (-1 size, +10 natural)
hp 76 (8d8+40); fast healing 5
Fort +11, Ref +4, Will +5
Defensive Abilities plant traits; Immune acid
----------------------------------
OFFENSE
----------------------------------
Speed 0 ft. (immobile)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks acid spray (DC 19), digest (DC 19)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th; concentration +7)
Constant—detect alignment
----------------------------------
TACTICS
----------------------------------
Combat The blessed ring does not enter combat directly, but if attacked in dome form, it sprays acid to defend itself. If attacked from the inside, it begins to digest the attacker.
----------------------------------
STATISTICS
----------------------------------
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 9
Base Atk +6; CMB +6; CMD 16
Feats Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Skills Perception +14, Sense Motive +3
SQ soul sense
----------------------------------
ECOLOGY
----------------------------------
Environment temperate forests
Organization solitary
Treasure none
----------------------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
----------------------------------
Acid Spray (Ex) The blessed ring defends itself by spraying attackers with a 15-foot cone of acid as a standard action. The acid inflicts 8d6 points of damage (Reflex half). The save DC is Constitution-based.
Digest (Ex) If the blessed ring detects an occupant that is evil, or if it is attacked from the inside, it attempts to digest all within its dome as a standard action. Creatures within the dome are heavily sprayed with acid, inflicting 8d6 points of damage (Reflex half). After four rounds of digestion, all items within the dome risk dissolving. Attended or magical items can make DC 19 Fortitude saves to survive; determine which of a character's items are affected as when rolling a natural 1 on a saving throw against a magical attack. The save DCs are Constitution-based. When the dome recedes after 8 hours, no trace is left of anything digested by the blessed ring.
Anyone attempting to break through the dome must deal damage equal to one-third of the dome's total hit points (25) in order to make room for a Medium creature to pass through. As the dome heals 5 hit points per round, this is more difficult than it sounds.
Soul Sense (Su) Five minutes after its dome is formed, the blessed ring uses this ability to determine the alignment of everyone within it and whether or not they are pure of heart. If it detects any evil-aligned creatures, the blessed ring attempts to digest its contents. It is possible to fool the ring with spells such as undetectable alignment.

To the weary adventurer, the blessed ring is a gift from the gods. Although rare, these simple rings of common toadstools can be found scattered throughout the wilderness. They are distinguished from normal mushrooms by their perfect ring pattern on the ground and the odd lack of plant growth within their circle. Close inspection reveals nothing special about the ring, but if any living creature lies down within the circle and remains still for 5 minutes, the ring begins to grow up around it, quickly forming an impenetrable dome of mushrooms roughly 10 feet across and 5 feet high. This dome can comfortably hold four Medium creatures. Anyone within the dome can rest completely protected from the elements, as well as from any marauding predators. After precisely 8 hours, the dome recedes, and within 1 minute, only the original ring of mushrooms remains.

There is little chance that anyone within the dome may be disturbed, as any attempt to attack or harm the dome during these 8 hours (whether from the inside or outside) earns the offender a spray of powerful acid.

The blessed ring is, however, something of a mixed blessing--five minutes after the dome is formed, the fungus uses its soul sense power on everyone inside of it. If anyone within the circle is evil, the blessed ring attempts to digest everything within it. Creatures trapped inside have only a few rounds to cut themselves out before they become fertilizer for the blessed ring.

Campaign
The standard use for the blessed ring is as a safe place for good or neutral adventurers to camp in the wilderness. How the heroes find out how to use the campsite is the challenge before them. The most common way is to have an NPC tell the players about the ring. If the PCs are passing through a dangerous wilderness, a trusted friend may explain to them its location and use.

Characters with the Knowledge (nature) skill can make a DC 18 check to recognize a blessed ring for what it is. Another way to tip the heroes off is to mark the ring on a map that the players find. Perhaps someone has scrawled "Safe camp here, Blessed Ring" on the map. Allow the PCs to figure the rest out on their own.
A less common use for the ring is as a rite of passage for certain tribes or religions. A clan of druids may require all new aspirants to stay a night in the blessed ring in order to prove their purity. Some primitive tribes also use the ring as a rite of passage into adulthood or as a final test for a new chieftain.

Of course, the heroes may find their own use for the ring. Perhaps they can trick an enemy into lying down in the ring, or maybe they can use the ring to destroy an evil magical item or artifact. The ring is as useful as it is deadly.

One last word of caution: Trust. It is quite an act of faith to lie down within the blessed ring with another person— make sure you know them well!

Original 3.5 version
[IMG]http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/cybervid/Blessed%20Ring%203.5%20versi on.jpg[/IMG]


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I hope some 3pp sees your work here. I enjoy your monster-conversions! :D

Grand Lodge

Endzeitgeist wrote:
I hope some 3pp sees your work here. I enjoy your monster-conversions! :D

Awesome, thanks. That means a lot. =D

I just hope that they're actually as balanced as I believe they are.

Sovereign Court

I think the blessed ring was already in malevolent and Benign, but thank you nonetheless, as it shows good taste in your monstering. :)

Grand Lodge

Stereofm wrote:
I think the blessed ring was already in malevolent and Benign, but thank you nonetheless, as it shows good taste in your monstering. :)

I didn't even know about that until now. Looking at it, it's literally a straight up conversion from the 3.5 version, and all they did was add the Natural Armor feat twice. They also lowered the Con by 2, but increased the HD by 1. This lowers a couple of the DCs, but they left the Ability Focus. Not only that, it has no Str and Dex still. By the stipulated Monster Creation Rules, this creature is not on par with the standard creatures.

I can't say I like mine best because I'm sure someone would find flaws in it (for instance you don't actually need detect alignment because of it's soul sense), but still.

As I pointed out to Sean K. Reynolds earlier today in an email, his RPG Design Classes should be mandatory. Especially for anyone wanting to convert or make their own creatures.

Thanks for pointing that out. It's appreciated. I wouldn't have known otherwise.

Dark Archive

So any news on what is going on with this project? Committed $305 bucks to throne of night (and also purchased way of the wicked but) but have never gotten either AP... Just saying cause when you give someone money for something and they kinda disappear I call that stealing.

Sorry to sound harsh but I honestly dont know what else to call this...

Grand Lodge

I know. We're all concerned. Weslocke and I have both talked to Michael Clarke, and I personally know now that the stretch goal adventure has not only been sequenced out, but also that the art for it is nearly complete as well. As to how much is completed, or if Gary's been writing all of the books at once to keep the continuity more flush than Way of the Wicked (he for a few things in that AP which caused him to need to make Book 7 to sum up all of the loose ends), unfortunately no one knows except Gary himself.

All we can do is wait.


kevin_video wrote:

All we can do is wait.

But wait for how long?

Wyldwabyt has a valid point, and this project feels like it is never going to see completion.

Is there anyone among those of us who invested money with the knowledge/ability to start a class action lawsuit?

Grand Lodge

Firstbourne wrote:
kevin_video wrote:

All we can do is wait.

But wait for how long?

Wyldwabyt has a valid point, and this project feels like it is never going to see completion.

Is there anyone among those of us who invested money with the knowledge/ability to start a class action lawsuit?

All I'm aware of is pretty much everyone that's invested money has sent KS a "Report this project to Kickstarter." With regards to wait time, he has up to five years from the date the KS funded to give us what we paid for. Even if he said tomorrow it was guaranteed to be released and shipped, he couldn't be help accountable because of the five year grace period. This means 2018 before legally anyone can really do anything.

As for opening a lawsuit, should the time come, the rules of KS dictate that you should open a support ticket first before taking things to court. If you do not, then "You agree that any action at law or in equity arising out of or relating to these Terms, or your use or non-use of Kickstarter, shall be filed only in the state or federal courts located in New York County in the State of New York, and you hereby consent and submit to the personal jurisdiction of these courts for the purposes of litigating any such action. You hereby irrevocably waive any right you may have to trial by jury in any dispute, action, or proceeding."

I would suggest the support ticket first.


Thanks for the info.

I've written this off as a loss on my end, as Gary seems to have written off the project on his end.

He should be held accountable for his actions (or lack thereof), but the world isn't a perfect place.

Grand Lodge

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Firstbourne wrote:

Thanks for the info.

I've written this off as a loss on my end, as Gary seems to have written off the project on his end.

He should be held accountable for his actions (or lack thereof), but the world isn't a perfect place.

Since Michael is still doing art, and getting paid for his commissions, I'm assuming it's still underway and don't consider it a write-off as of yet. It's just taking an infinitely longer time than Gary first thought. I think because he was able to do the first four books in only eight months (the other two took significantly longer because his computer blew up and he didn't save any backups), he thought that he could do the same thing. Technically, he was almost able to do that with the first two books.

Grand Lodge

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This game went incredibly well at the convention this year. And it was hilarious too. They played drow, but instead of taking down the village with the elemental beads, and doing the baroness said to do, they instead decided to warn the village of the betrayal of the drow, and instead became heroes and allies to the city. We ended up running a combination of the overlord campaign, but also did the explorer campaign. It was crazy.

Dark Archive

kevin_video wrote:
This game went incredibly well at the convention this year. And it was hilarious too. They played drow, but instead of taking down the village with the elemental beads, and doing the baroness said to do, they instead decided to warn the village of the betrayal of the drow, and instead became heroes and allies to the city. We ended up running a combination of the overlord campaign, but also did the explorer campaign. It was crazy.

That sounds awesome. What were the alignments of the Drow? If you don't mind me asking.

Grand Lodge

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brad2411 wrote:
kevin_video wrote:
This game went incredibly well at the convention this year. And it was hilarious too. They played drow, but instead of taking down the village with the elemental beads, and doing the baroness said to do, they instead decided to warn the village of the betrayal of the drow, and instead became heroes and allies to the city. We ended up running a combination of the overlord campaign, but also did the explorer campaign. It was crazy.
That sounds awesome. What were the alignments of the Drow? If you don't mind me asking.

All of them were chaotic evil. Was definitely chaotic. Did their own thing instead of obeying orders, and doing the good guy adventure instead of the the evil? Oh yeah. Threw me off my game. XD I just went with it.


hey all, first time posting an all. so after playing way of the wicked as first proper PF game, i've recently started DMing a throne of night game. We are playing as LE drow (screw dwarfs) and i dare say it will take us a very long time to even reach the second book, as we do weekly session sometimes a extra and they have only just reached the cave system near the gnome town (RP heavy game). But i'm just wanting to know has their been any news on book three?. Really love these adventures an hope they do more but it's been awhile since book two.

Grand Lodge

We've heard nothing other that it's getting released soon, and that was three months ago. All we have seen is new art of upcoming encounters and story, but nothing else.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Well I for one have written thit whole s#!& of as vaporware half a year ago. And I don´t buy into all the excuses made here for the benefit of Mr. McBride.

Let´s see about some of the usual ones:

1. "The guy probably has really, really, really bad/serious/important personal issues"

Hmhm......they are SO serious the he has ample time to rummage through kickstarter every other day and back projects to his hearts desire but can´t shoot his backers an update once a month.

2. "The guy has a writer´s block"

For real. And the baddest case of it I ever heard of! Cause apparently this mysterious writer´s block of Mr. McBride encompasses writing my adress on a package to send me the (already written) WotW books I payed for two f@&*ing years ago.

3. "I will take quality over quantity every day"

Sorry people but chucking out two measly books in 3 years has nothing - that´s with a capital N mark you - to do with quality over quantity.

4. "Give him some room he´s a nice guy"

He´s what? A nice guy? Totes. He´s so nice a guy that he not only give´s a rat´s ass about the worries, the feelings and the wishes of the people who threw him quite a bit of their hard earned money but that he left his artist pal out to the wolves for the last two years. Yeah, he´s a prince.

And before anyone comes up to me with that whole BS of "that´s not how kickstarter works", sorry people, kickstarter doesn´t forbid you to have personal honor and integrity and keep the people that believed in you, cared for your personal pet project and helped you out with funds in the loops.
Many, many others - companies and private citizens - who´s kickstarters are delayed prove this every single day.

But all is not lost (yet):

Roleplaying gamers are a small, dedicated bunch and I´ve seen them reach out time and again when someone came clear with personal issues or problems for delays of product or anything else. The people that have been honest with their customers and fans have been given comfort, advice, support, assistance and money with nothing asked in return. We take care of our own.

But that doesn´t mean that I need to stand for being cheated, ignored, lied to on a regular basis and all together being treated like s&&!.

Once again (even though I am certain to no avail) I urge Mr. McBride to come into the open. All of the people that supported you deserve an open, honest, sincere assessment of where we stand and when they´ll get their product (if ever). Come clear, win back your personal honor and be assured that we´ll take care of our own.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

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Lord_Hyperion wrote:
I don´t buy into all the excuses made here for the benefit of Mr. McBride....

I agree with you Mr. Lord Hyperion that Fire Mountain Game's lack of communication regarding these (HUGE) delays is deplorable.

However, the fact that he is still (paying?) for artwork indicates the project is not dead. But he has no 'binding' constraints for deadlines (except for "personal honor and integrity"), so F.M.G. can take their time finishing the project.

I'm like most (?) people who've back this project: I've written it off and possibly in a few years (?) I'll be pleasantly surprised to get a package in my mailbox.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A lot of people have said the same thing (myself included), that they have "written this off as a loss and moved on".
I'm just curious if/how Gary plans to continue a career in this field with this reputation that he has created for himself. Had I been aware of what to expect from him, I would have never supported this project. I can only imagine how many people that did support this will scream "stay away" if another one of his projects is announced.

Grand Lodge

Necromancers of the Northwest just came out with a new shield made by dwarven smiths to help battle their foes. It's at the bottom of the page, and is called the Tower Shield of Blade.

Every Mon-Thurs, Necromancers of the Northwest releases a monster or race, class archetype, set of magic spells, and magic items/weapons, respectfully in that order.

Dark Archive

Firstbourne wrote:

A lot of people have said the same thing (myself included), that they have "written this off as a loss and moved on".

I'm just curious if/how Gary plans to continue a career in this field with this reputation that he has created for himself. Had I been aware of what to expect from him, I would have never supported this project. I can only imagine how many people that did support this will scream "stay away" if another one of his projects is announced.

Perhaps under a pen name and never in public in fear of a stoning...

The guy is nothing short of a thief at this point.

Grand Lodge

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To anyone who hasn't done so, KS wants you to click on the "Report this project" at the bottom of the "campaign" page.
Quote: "Our Integrity team is dedicated to looking into any concerns over projects on the site. Using the 'Report this project' button at the bottom of the project page is the most effective way of bringing this to their attention so that they can take any appropriate action."
Not enough people have brought it to their attention, so we're getting ignored. Essentially.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

This one really reminds me of the pre-Kickstarter crowdfunded "Nick Logue's Razor Coast" project from 2008. Nick started a game company, "Sinister Adventures" to produce it, and it started strong out the gate. When it was about two-thirds done, Nick had a bunch of personal and professional setbacks and the project stalled for four years. Sinister went bankrupt. Eventually, he stopped working on the game and started offering people their money back. Some accepted. Frog God Games bought out the rights and the work so far, and they published it years later.

I don't know about McBride and FMG, but Logue said that the biggest de-motivator against actually taking action with Razor Coast was the hate-mail and "Nick is a thief!" Vitriol on the boards. The more hate-mail he got, the easier it was to pretend to ignore the mess he'd left.

The other thing to remember: Most Kickstarters fail, and a large fraction of "successful" Kickstarters never deliver the goods. When you back a Kickstarter, you're NOT buying a product. You're investing in an idea.

If TON delivers, awesome. If not, two parts ain't bad.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Kickstarter has provisions in place for situations like this, where a person takes money and does not make an attempt to complete their project.
Again - please stop with the misinformation about KS and "investing in an idea".

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Firstbourne wrote:

Kickstarter has provisions in place for situations like this, where a person takes money and does not make an attempt to complete their project.

Again - please stop with the misinformation about KS and "investing in an idea".

We are getting sporadic updates and art purchases are being made. The project is way late and sparse on updates explaining the delays. But saying this "does not make an attempt to complete the project" is clear "misinformation". I say this as someone who backed the KS and paid for the WotW print books that I'm still waiting on.

Grand Lodge

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I was part of the Razor Coast issue, but at the same time Nick had at least decent communication. He didn't keep things to himself for months on end. All we're asking for is for some transparency.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I was part of the Razor Coast thing too, one of the differences here is that Gary has already put out an adventure path. Part of the trouble Nick ran into was he had not done the publishing side, Gary has.

I think we will eventually see this, and hate mail never helps anything.

I hold out hope.

One of my first kickstarters was some small monster manual from some obscure company. I was new and interested in what the guy had to say. The estimated deliver was over two years ago, and the guy seems to be moving forward but. I really don't care anymore. For me so much good stuff has come out since then. It was a poor choice on my part but I am good. I do not send the guy hate mail, or go after him. I have quietly gotten to a place of not caring whether I see it or not.

If the amount you put into a kickstarter is too much for you to afford if it fails, then you should wait for the book to come out and buy it then.

There will always be disappointments.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Pretty much what Shem said. I love the idea of Kickstarter, but I am very particular about which ones I back for these very reasons.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

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I backed Throne of Night - I also have a Kickstarter that's roughly 2 years behind schedule. So I have the fun view of both sides of the equation.

I think Gary is working to finish the books and is likely using revenue from sales of other products to offset budget shortfalls, but I think he's failing in transparency with his backers. Having backers of my own projects who have been VERY negative despite all attempts to keep backers informed and up-to-date, I honestly can't blame him for it. There have been times I have gone in GREAT detail over the challenges, obstacles, and mistakes made in the project - yet some backers just don't care aside from "where's my stuff?" It is demotivating and leads to a cycle of not wanting to give an update. When I gave an update that rewards were shipping, I then got backers posting DAILY about why there weren't updates - despite my last update specifying that rewards were shipping.

When projects like this run over their expected timelines, it creates a domino effect, impacting other projects, your personal life, and so much more. It is an absolutely soul-crushing scenario - believe me, I've been in it. Some backers are INCREDIBLY supportive, others don't care what you do if they haven't received EVERY SINGLE ITEM their reward tier specifies, regardless of how in-depth you go of why they haven't gone out yet. It doesn't matter how much they've already received - if they don't have each and every item, you catch hell every single day you're past your ESTIMATED delivery date.

My suggestion in this instance would be for Gary to give more than just a short "things are taking longer than expected" and give SOME indicator as to why - if it was budget shortfall, if it was resource issues, if it was personal matters (those can be kept as short as "personal matters") - but as a backer, AND as a Kickstarter creator with a project equally overdue, his explanations thus far have simply been too vague and that's why there's continued animosity.

Grand Lodge

Jeremy Smith wrote:

I backed Throne of Night - I also have a Kickstarter that's roughly 2 years behind schedule. So I have the fun view of both sides of the equation.

I think Gary is working to finish the books and is likely using revenue from sales of other products to offset budget shortfalls, but I think he's failing in transparency with his backers. Having backers of my own projects who have been VERY negative despite all attempts to keep backers informed and up-to-date, I honestly can't blame him for it. There have been times I have gone in GREAT detail over the challenges, obstacles, and mistakes made in the project - yet some backers just don't care aside from "where's my stuff?" It is demotivating and leads to a cycle of not wanting to give an update. When I gave an update that rewards were shipping, I then got backers posting DAILY about why there weren't updates - despite my last update specifying that rewards were shipping.

When projects like this run over their expected timelines, it creates a domino effect, impacting other projects, your personal life, and so much more. It is an absolutely soul-crushing scenario - believe me, I've been in it. Some backers are INCREDIBLY supportive, others don't care what you do if they haven't received EVERY SINGLE ITEM their reward tier specifies, regardless of how in-depth you go of why they haven't gone out yet. It doesn't matter how much they've already received - if they don't have each and every item, you catch hell every single day you're past your ESTIMATED delivery date.

My suggestion in this instance would be for Gary to give more than just a short "things are taking longer than expected" and give SOME indicator as to why - if it was budget shortfall, if it was resource issues, if it was personal matters (those can be kept as short as "personal matters") - but as a backer, AND as a Kickstarter creator with a project equally overdue, his explanations thus far have simply been too vague and that's why there's continued animosity.

Do you mind if I share this on the ToN KS page?


I am just waiting for either the whole thing to get finished I keep hoping to use it for a drow noble campaign.....


4 people marked this as a favorite.

@Jeremy I backed both your project Utimate Psionics and Throne of Night. So I want to make the differences clear. You gave us updates all the time every step of the way you have remained active in the RPG community you answer our questions whenever we ask them You have been incredible in your help to me I am in the $300 category with lifetime PDF access and you have never failed to help me. Also I have the majority of my books including the big limited edition hardcover and their are really only a few things still outstanding. To you I say job well done I love your companies stuff and I appreciate your effort it has been noticed by me at least and if their are people sending your negative mail shame on them. As for Gary he rarely gives updates he never answers questions and he has disappeared from the RPG community. I wish he would just keep in touch with us. Now I will say That other than an occasional comment on the Paizo boards here or kickstarter comments I have not sent him negative mail I wait patiently for my 14 physical books to arrive maybe someday :) You have to have hope right. So I will keep waiting for my books and loving Dreamscarred Presses products.

If you started another kickstarter tomorrow I would be their for you Jeremy I will never contribute to a kickstarter by Firemountain ever again that is the real difference.


I am also a backer of ToN, to the tune of $150.
I understand that "real life happens". I once backed a KS and the person who was trying to start their own business died from cancer. I was absolutely not upset about my "rewards". A person's life ended. It was heartbreaking. But - his family contacted the backers and made us aware of what was going on behind the scenes. Then, the unexpected happened, and his family decided to honor his memory by finishing his project!
Again, I understand that life can throw all kinds of unexpected events in front of you, but please, just communicate with us.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

kevin_video wrote:
Do you mind if I share this on the ToN KS page?

Feel free!

I personally hold no animosity toward Gary and have not personally asked for any updates (despite my backing the project for all the books) - I knew going it it would be a big project and I don't envy him the task of finishing. :)

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

1 person marked this as a favorite.
ladydragona wrote:

@Jeremy I backed both your project Utimate Psionics and Throne of Night. So I want to make the differences clear. You gave us updates all the time every step of the way you have remained active in the RPG community you answer our questions whenever we ask them You have been incredible in your help to me I am in the $300 category with lifetime PDF access and you have never failed to help me. Also I have the majority of my books including the big limited edition hardcover and their are really only a few things still outstanding. To you I say job well done I love your companies stuff and I appreciate your effort it has been noticed by me at least and if their are people sending your negative mail shame on them. As for Gary he rarely gives updates he never answers questions and he has disappeared from the RPG community. I wish he would just keep in touch with us. Now I will say That other than an occasional comment on the Paizo boards here or kickstarter comments I have not sent him negative mail I wait patiently for my 14 physical books to arrive maybe someday :) You have to have hope right. So I will keep waiting for my books and loving Dreamscarred Presses products.

If you started another kickstarter tomorrow I would be their for you Jeremy I will never contribute to a kickstarter by Firemountain ever again that is the real difference.

Thank you so much for this!

The number of negative backers has honestly been minuscule compared to the number of actual backers. But the consistent negativity eats away over time.

Thankfully, what I've found is that by being upfront about what's going on, many more people offer support - even if only kind words and encouragement - than those being negative. But when you're in the middle of that downward spiral, it can be very hard to recognize that. You don't want to even look at the project because all that greets you is the the mountain of work and the negativity.

I'm not trying to make excuses for Gary - I don't know any more about his situation than any other backer - I'm just offering my own insight as both a project backer AND significantly overdue creator.

And our next Kickstarter is planned for December - long enough for me to get these remaining rewards out, get through GenCon, and get a lot of prep work done... as long as things go even modestly as planned.


As there might be others interested in the news - I thought I'd just pop in with a mention that Michael Clarke (the artist) just got in touch to confirm the custom art piece that came along with the $250 pledge on the campaign.

So some movement in the backgrounds.


You guys have it better then the monster: death backers or whatever that boardgsme is. They are holding a lottery to see which backers get shipped an unfinished product lol.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Mark Sweetman wrote:

As there might be others interested in the news - I thought I'd just pop in with a mention that Michael Clarke (the artist) just got in touch to confirm the custom art piece that came along with the $250 pledge on the campaign.

Hi Mark,

I'm also pledged at the $250 level. Were you notified via Kickstarter, or did Mr. Clarke personally notify you?


Banesfinger - direct to my email (same one as registered on KS) by Michael Clarke himself (as in not through KS as an intermediary, nor via Gary).

My guess was that Gary parsed out the email addresses of the appropriate persons and Michael wrote a direct email to them. Would you like me to PM you the full text and contact email?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

Mark Sweetman wrote:
Would you like me to PM you the full text and contact email?

Thanks so much Mark, that would be helpful (I have not received any such email). Hopefully you weren't an isolated incident...since there were only 10 of us who bought that "Overlord" level on Kickstarter.

Grand Lodge

Always be sure to check you junk mail. That's where my email from him ended up.

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