I'm going to be GMing a PVP match as a send off to Pathfinder before my group goes off to a homebrew RPG and it is going to be about 8 people in groups of 2 randomly selected and I'm scared that one group of 2 will be over powered (a paladin and inquisitor combo) so I just wanted to know what class counters the Paladin class for there will be a twist in the game (dont want to get into it because my group mates use this site to help with what they are going to build). Please help because I really would like to have a fighting chance against this very deadly combo.
Well, anti-paladin is the most direct counter to the paladin class. Are there specific abilities you want to be able to cancel out with another class's abilities?
what counters it is not equal with what its opposite is
if you want something to counter it with, consider monk, and characters that make the paladin trip and similar
more exotic options include White-haired witch, Cabalist Hexcrafter Magus, Ninja, or some Summoners
if you mean more direct, similar classes, I would say Cavalier, Anti-Paladin, Cleric with proper domain choices, or armored ranger with potions/items for protection against good/damage against good, bane against good/law, and favored enemy human
I would say a multiclass White-Haired Witch/Fighter would also work if you focus on hexes
ah right, I forgot Godling, with the scion ability that hides alignment, Retribution, and some other fun stuff
heritage domain can be whatever you want, but Animal would give you a companion
Um, in this case you're wrong. The abilities of the pally and anti-pally directly equalize each other. Thus, an anti-pally is the perfect counter in all respects, at least in this case.
To demonstrate:
The 1st level abilities of a paladin:
Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day
And from the 1st level anti-paladin:
Aura of evil, detect good, smite good 1/day
Their BAB, saves and spells are the same level for level. Whereas the paladin has mercy, the anti-paladin has cruelty, etc etc etc.
Even their mercy/cruelty abilities directly oppose each other. Mercy removes conditions whereas cruelty applies conditions.
Knowing the level of the competitors would be good as well. If you want duel, then a good counter for a pally would be LG fighter offering a honourable duel without magic and choosing his favored weapons. Heh, that could even devolve in a RP event under different circumstances.
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I would say anything non-evil. Not giving a paladin their most powerful ability (smite evil) is going to be a bonus.
As for class I would go wizard. Using flight to stay out of melee range is going to be helpful. Also, since a paladin is going to pass most saves you throw at it, due to divine grace, you want to use spells that don't require saves. If you do use saves make them save or suck and push your DCs really high. Save or suck spells are going to help you becuase lay on hands is going to keep the pally going. Also make sure you have scrolls and wands.
The strongest single move is probably to not be the alignment he can smite. If he is built for 2h weapons grappling or disarm could be worth it. Attacks that Target touch ac so a no-save caster or gunslinger might do.
Anything with the corruption resistance spell.
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Breaking his stuff would also make paladin really unhappy...
Barbarian with an earth breaker hammer and greater sunder, no more armor, no more weapon (this may be tough to achieve, but worth it if you can pull it off). Gunslinger, touch ac and range, have fun backpedaling while the paladin lumbers around the battlefield with holes punched in his armor.
Paladins have low perception. Neutral spring attacking rogue with tindertwigs could make short work of him.
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Countering a paladin is trivial; simply refuse to fight him. If he attacks you unprovoked, he's broken any reasonable code. If his ally attacks you unprovoked, defend yourself and note that's all you're doing, strait to victory.
Alternatively, offer to resolve your dispute in a nonviolent battle of wits... He can't honorably refuse (again, non violence should be preferred by most paladins), and most paladins ain't geniuses.
If you're attacking innocents it is well within the paladin's code of conduct to intervene. Exactly what happens at that point is a bit gray. If you're killing children I would expect a paladin to put you down hard (e.g. to death), for example.
If you're attacking innocents it is well within the paladin's code of conduct to intervene. Exactly what happens at that point is a bit gray. If you're killing children I would expect a paladin to put you down hard (e.g. to death), for example.
Well yeah. I'd say those acts fall under "empowering" paladins though, and are a horrible start toward countering one :P
I was simply noting that in a PVP or vs neutral situation, the best counter to a paladin is to simply refuse to play by his terms; he's the one with rules he can't violate, so use that to your advantage.
Probably a fighter, or perhaps barbarian.
After all, once you take away the smite, a paladin is just a fighter without feats. OK, the healing is real nice, but all the other paladin abilities don't do much in a fight vs a non-evil melee type.
Some sort of mounted archer or skirmisher could also do well against a slow paladin.
Paladins are tough to deal with because of high AC, high saves, the ability to self-heal as a swift action, spells, customizable magic weapons and so on. They do have a few achille's heels though.
First thing would be something that's not evil to counter Smites. Second would be something that targets the Reflex save rather than Fortitude or Will - best case would probably be something that makes him immobile or far less mobile (difficult terrain, entanglement, etc. none of which can be countered by Mercies) and then hammer him at range.
Short answer? I'd probably say Druid.
Another option would be to make that selection not so random and put the Paladin and Inquisitor in opposite teams.
After all, once you take away the smite, a paladin is just a fighter without feats. OK, the healing is real nice, but all the other paladin
Very wrong.
Some sort of mounted archer or skirmisher could also do well against a slow paladin.
Very right, especially if you can separate him from the rest of the group, get them outside his auras. A real nightmare would be to turn one of his teammates against him via compulsion - doubt he could get away with using lethal force under those circumstances.
Fighter counters paladin, just as long as fighter is not evil.
So very, very wrong.
Paladins have low perception. Neutral spring attacking rogue with tindertwigs could make short work of him.
No. That is just wrong. Even if a paladin had low perception as a class feature somehow, which they don't, readying an attack could handle any spring attacking rogue, and that is without smiting. You also can't hide while you are being observed so after that first attack the rogue is out of luck.
After all, once you take away the smite, a paladin is just a fighter without feats. OK, the healing is real nice, but all the other paladinVery wrong.
Some sort of mounted archer or skirmisher could also do well against a slow paladin.Very right, especially if you can separate him from the rest of the group, get them outside his auras. A real nightmare would be to turn one of his teammates against him via compulsion - doubt he could get away with using lethal force under those circumstances.
In the context of the PVP scenario set up in the original post, what paladin abilities would come into play against a non-evil fighter (other then the swift healing?)
If this is a high enough level PvP, just drop a Maze spell on the paladin!
I don't know why you're worried about a Paladin when you can be not evil and use stuff like this: Emergency Force Sphere and Summon Monster I-IX with Augment Summons and Superior Summoning. Or be a druid and spam trip wolves or something at him.
I mean sure, you can try to go toe to toe with him but winning action economy is so much easier and safer.
And Maze like Fergie said.
EDIT: The answer to your question is Wizard, Druid, Cleric.
I don't know why you're worried about a Paladin when you can be not evil and use stuff like this: Emergency Force Sphere and Summon Monster I-IX with Augment Summons and Superior Summoning. Or be a druid and spam trip wolves or something at him.
I mean sure, you can try to go toe to toe with him but winning action economy is so much easier and safer.
And Maze like Fergie said.
Yeah, a Master Summoner swarming him with neutral creatures could really make life hard for him.
Paladins have low perception. Neutral spring attacking rogue with tindertwigs could make short work of him.No. That is just wrong. Even if a paladin had low perception as a class feature somehow, which they don't, readying an attack could handle any spring attacking rogue, and that is without smiting. You also can't hide while you are being observed so after that first attack the rogue is out of luck.
I meant Smokestick, and I forgot that our houserule isn't in the actual rules that rogues can sneak attack even against concealment. In this case, the Rogue would have to use the smokestick fog to go back into and hide (i.e. Stealth). Thrown weapons, like daggers, would be ideal in this case because you wouldn't have to get within melee range.
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Yeah, a Master Summoner swarming him with neutral creatures could really make life hard for him.I don't know why you're worried about a Paladin when you can be not evil and use stuff like this: Emergency Force Sphere and Summon Monster I-IX with Augment Summons and Superior Summoning. Or be a druid and spam trip wolves or something at him.
I mean sure, you can try to go toe to toe with him but winning action economy is so much easier and safer.
And Maze like Fergie said.
I had a Master Summoner spam Lantern Archons at the party Paladin. DR that could not be easily overcome and touch attacks that made his full plate useless. Insult to injury too. Nobody ever forgot it.
After all, once you take away the smite, a paladin is just a fighter without feats. OK, the healing is real nice, but all the other paladinVery wrong.
Some sort of mounted archer or skirmisher could also do well against a slow paladin.Very right, especially if you can separate him from the rest of the group, get them outside his auras. A real nightmare would be to turn one of his teammates against him via compulsion - doubt he could get away with using lethal force under those circumstances.In the context of the PVP scenario set up in the original post, what paladin abilities would come into play against a non-evil fighter (other then the swift healing?)
If this is a high enough level PvP, just drop a Maze spell on the paladin!
Well, first off let's not just discount the healing as 'nice'. Its utterly and completely game-changing. We have an Elven Paladin in our party whom at 20th level (an extreme example) can use Lay on Hands to heal herself for 96 hit points a pop 22 times a day - that's basically giving her a 2,112 hit point advantage in any toe-to-toe fight without even disrutping a full attack chain. That's a lot more than nice.
The discussion isn't, as I understand it, what class can take down a Paladin, but rather what class can cancel out all of what a Paladin brings to the table. It was my understanding that this PvP scenario would be group vs. group, not individual vs. individual and under those circumstances, again all of the other advantages the Paladin offers far outstrips what the Fighter might be able to do for them. - save bonuses due to auras, customizable magic weapon enhancements, spells that offer tremendous buffs, mercies to erase conditions and heaven forbid that the 'twist' he's planning being that the other group of PC's turn evil.
In short, the Paladin is much more survivable than the Fighter due to swift healing and enhanced saves and is better able to protect the other characters due to auras, spells and mercies. He'll live longer, is much less likely to be turned and become a threat to his fellow party members and has more versatility facing a variety of threats. In the face of that all the fighter can offer really is more damage, and even that's only against non-evil foes.
As I mentioned in another thread, the best melee combat duo I've ever seen was a tank-like Paladin and a reach weapon-wiedling Lore Warden who would stand behind him. Nothing survived the two of them and nothing ever got past them to threaten the rest of the party.
The best way to deal with a Paladin in my opinion is to slow him up and get the rest of the party away from him, then deal with him last. That or swarm him with neutral-aligned summoned creatures.
More clarification: Half-orc Paladin (Redeemer Paladin) Level 20 and he and the Inquisitor were able to kill the Stag Lord (from the Pathfinder campaign Kingmaker) at level 3 because they were able to give him -8 to all roles and would have been more but the DM took pity on the Stag Lord and just killed him. And they are going to try to role play their alliance even if they aren't allies in the beginning so I may as well try to make them not allies but he is a Redeemer Paladin he will spare his opponents and make them convert if at all possible.
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The sheer fact that an Antipaladin, the epitome of evil and chaos, must adhere to a strict code of conduct, just rubs me the wrong way.
I miss the Blackguard.
This is a joke really. If you read the Antipaladin's "code of conduct", it becomes quickly apparent why they are chaotic evil. The code basically says "they must, unless they don't want to". Their code says they can do good for selfish reasons, they can work with good people if it suits them, and it seems that the entire code is written just to show how they ignore it.
A wizard quite honestly while the pallies saves will be sky high chances are a good wizard builds dc will be a great deal higher.
Solution: Use Touch AC spells. Orbs, scorching ray with a tonne of meta, various force spells. Don't play to Paladin strengths, play to yours. He won't have good SR either.
EDIT: Zen Archer's legit too. Might not work so well if he pulls out a bow or the pvp takes place in an arena.
More clarification: Half-orc Paladin (Redeemer Paladin) Level 20 and he and the Inquisitor were able to kill the Stag Lord (from the Pathfinder campaign Kingmaker) at level 3 because they were able to give him -8 to all roles and would have been more but the DM took pity on the Stag Lord and just killed him. And they are going to try to role play their alliance even if they aren't allies in the beginning so I may as well try to make them not allies but he is a Redeemer Paladin he will spare his opponents and make them convert if at all possible.
how did they manage to give him -8 to all rolls? a level 3 paladin cant do anything besides combat manouvers that can actually impose a penalty, as far as i know. Assuming that i am wrong please tell me what combo they used :)
Fighter counters paladin, just as long as fighter is not evil.
Yeah, no. Assuming characters that aren't PVP Arena one-shot builds, the Paladin not only has swift action self-healing, he'll also get the first Full Attack, because spellcasting means he can force the fighter to close in (or wait while the Paladin out-buffs him).
Well, first off let's not just discount the healing as 'nice'. Its utterly and completely game-changing. We have an Elven Paladin in our party whom at 20th level (an extreme example) can use Lay on Hands to heal herself for 96 hit points a pop 22 times a day - that's basically giving her a 2,112 hit point advantage in any toe-to-toe fight without even disrutping a full attack chain. That's a lot more than nice.
so im assuming your paladin has 30 or 34 charisma depending on if he has the feat for extra lay on hands, which gives him the 22 times of lay on hands a day. but how does it heal 96 hit points per time ? it should be only 10d6 which is 35 hit points on average, and as far as i know there isnt a way (feat wise) to get 61 hp extra healing into lay on hands, but i would love to hear how he does it. otherwise he "only" gets 770 extra hit point assuming he survives the 22 rounds in the first place.
so im assuming your paladin has 30 or 34 charisma depending on if he has the feat for extra lay on hands, which gives him the 22 times of lay on hands a day. but how does it heal 96 hit points per time ? it should be only 10d6 which is 35 hit points on average, and as far as i know there isnt a way (feat wise) to get 61 hp extra healing into lay on hands, but i would love to hear how he does it. otherwise he "only" gets 770 extra hit point assuming he survives the 22 rounds in the first place.
Well, first off let's not just discount the healing as 'nice'. Its utterly and completely game-changing. We have an Elven Paladin in our party whom at 20th level (an extreme example) can use Lay on Hands to heal herself for 96 hit points a pop 22 times a day - that's basically giving her a 2,112 hit point advantage in any toe-to-toe fight without even disrutping a full attack chain. That's a lot more than nice.
Extra Lay on Hands
Benefit: You can use your lay on hands ability two additional times per day.Special: You can gain Extra Lay On Hands multiple times. Its effects stack.
Greater Mercy
Benefit: When you use your lay on hands ability and the target of that ability does not have any conditions your mercies can remove, it instead heals an additional +1d6 points of damage.
Fey Foundling
Benefit: Your strange connection to the First World and the fey infuses you with life, and whenever you receive magical healing, you heal an additional 2 points per die rolled. You gain a +2 bonus on all saving throws against death effects. Unfortunately, you also suffer +1 point of damage from cold iron weapons (although you can wield cold iron weapons without significant discomfort).
Elven Favored class option for Paladin:
Paladin: Add +1/2 hit point to the paladin's lay on hands ability (whether using it to heal or harm).
Character build:
Elven Paladin (Oath of Vengeance)
Feats:
1st Fey Foundling
3rd Power Attack
5th Deadly Aim
7th Lunge
9th Extra Lay on Hands
11th Extra Lay on Hands
13th Extra Lay on Hands
15th Extra Lay on Hands
17th Greater Mercy
19th Ultimate Mercy
The character starts with a 16 Charisma, taking a +1 bonus at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th.
Soooo....
At 20th level she has 23 uses/day (10 uses from levels + 8 uses from feats + 5 uses from Charisma). I admit that I originally said 22 so I stand corrected. I also haven't included any Charisma boosting magical items which I'd have to presume she'd have by 20th level - a +6 item would up that total to 26 uses/day.
Each use heals 10d6 (from Paladin level) +1d6 (from Greater Mercy) +10 (Elven favored class option) +22 (2/die from Fey Foundling) which is maximized at 20th level for a grand total of 98 hit points a pop.
Hm. It seems that I was indeed off with my calculations and for that I apologize - the Paladin in our party can, at 20th level, heal herself for 98 hit points a pop 23 times per day which equates to a 2,254 hit point advantage. Assuming of course no charisma boost from magic items.
Healing 98 points a round will admittedly make her pretty difficult to kill considering her AC is at least as high as the Fighter's, but don't forget Hero's Defiance, a Paladin spell which allows her to Lay on Hands as an immediate action as well. From pretty much 5th level on she keeps two of those at the ready, and if she were going into some sort of arena duel, I imagine she'd prepare more.
Do you love it?
There's other tricks too. She can pick up an ordinary sword, make it a +5 Holy Weapon and then cast Shield of the Dawn Flower. How's that two-weapon fighter working out when he takes 1d6+15 damage every time he lands a hit? I tend to find that Fighters are much, much more reliant on their equipment to be effective (Cloaks of Resistance, magical armor and weapons, etc.) than Paladins and when we start taking that into account, we're not really talking about the classes, are we?
Paladins are countered by anyone they can't use Smite Evil on.
So, so very wrong... as illustrated above.
Boosted saves, immunities, auras, spells, phenomenal self-heals, channeling, customizable magic weapons, condition removal and full BAB, armor and weapon proficiency work pretty much against anyone. The willful clinging to of the 'Smite fallacy' when it comes to Paladins never ceases to amaze me.
Smite Evil is indeed countered by anyone not evil. Paladins however are not.
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Paladins are countered by anyone they can't use Smite Evil on.So, so very wrong... as illustrated above.
Boosted saves, immunities, auras, spells, phenomenal self-heals, channeling, customizable magic weapons, condition removal and full BAB, armor and weapon proficiency work pretty much against anyone. The willful clinging to of the 'Smite fallacy' when it comes to Paladins never ceases to amaze me.
Smite Evil is indeed countered by anyone not evil. Paladins however are not.
Eh. Almost all of those are useless against, well, any purely martial character. A Fighter, Barbarian, or Ranger ignores every one of the things listed (or has them himself) with the exception of Divine Bond, Spells, and Lay On Hands. And while those three together are nice, they're no match for Favored Enemy (plus spells) and an Animal Companion, Barbarian Rage (plus Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder), or the ridiculous selection of scaling bonuses a Fighter has available.
And a one-on-one arena fight is the situation being discussed.
Now, in actual play, you're absolutely right that Paladins are quite cool even sans Evil targets...but that's not really the situation being discussed here, is it?
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On the original subject, I'd go with either a Fighter or Ranger archer-type. Possibly a Strix if I want to be particularly mean (they can fly, after all).
Or, at high levels, possibly a Beast Totem Barbarian, since Pounc is loads of fun. Can be combined with superstition and do well vs. casters (and most other things), too.
Paladins are countered by anyone they can't use Smite Evil on.So, so very wrong... as illustrated above.
Boosted saves, immunities, auras, spells, phenomenal self-heals, channeling, customizable magic weapons, condition removal and full BAB, armor and weapon proficiency work pretty much against anyone. The willful clinging to of the 'Smite fallacy' when it comes to Paladins never ceases to amaze me.
Smite Evil is indeed countered by anyone not evil. Paladins however are not.
Eh. Almost all of those are useless against, well, any purely martial character. A Fighter, Barbarian, or Ranger ignores every one of the things listed (or has them himself) with the exception of Divine Bond, Spells, and Lay On Hands. And while those three together are nice, they're no match for Favored Enemy (plus spells) and an Animal Companion, Barbarian Rage (plus Witch Hunter and Spell Sunder), or the ridiculous selection of scaling bonuses a Fighter has available.
And a one-on-one arena fight is the situation being discussed.
Now, in actual play, you're absolutely right that Paladins are quite cool even sans Evil targets...but that's not really the situation being discussed here, is it?
A few things there - the first is that its not a one-on-one area fight that's being discussed. In the words of the OP:
"I'm going to be GMing a PVP match as a send off to Pathfinder before my group goes off to a homebrew RPG and it is going to be about 8 people in groups of 2 randomly selected and I'm scared that one group of 2 will be over powered..."
So what a Paladin brings to the table with regards to protecting his teammate through auras and spells does indeed matter. Moreover, its been my experience that in a fight with a purely martial character spells like Divine Favor, Hero's Defiance, Shield of the Dawnflower, etc. can all be used to devastating effectiveness. Let me know when Rangers get a spell like Blessing of Fervor like an Oath of Vengeance Paladin gets. And of those 'purely martial characters', the Paladin is the only one capable of repeated swift action self-healing which, as I've outlined, is pretty much THE deciding factor all by itself. Regeneration:98 for 20+ rounds? Yes please.
I've gotten into these discussions before and it seems to be foolish to me. I imagine that a Ranger is much more likely to face someone who isn't his Favored Enemy than a Paladin is to face a foe who isn't evil. Barbarian Rage is great until a foe can fly and/or has a range attack. Yet no one assumes that those classes are 'gimped' when conditions aren't ideal for them...
I'll take a Paladin without Smite over any other martial character out there, though obviously that's a matter of personal preference... but WITH Smite? No contest.
EDIT: The above is not technically true. My two favorite characters right now is a Half-Elven Master Summoner and an ingeniously designed (if I do say so myself) Human Lore Warden who takes 2 levels of Urban Barbarian and wields a reach weapon. I love Fighters, always have, I just think that the Paladin gets a foolishly bum rap by those who presume he is a one-trick pony due to Smite.
Avoid save-based classes (such as some caster builds). While it's true that these classes can instantly win a one-on-one match with a solid cast, paladin's get free save bonuses. They are serious melee combatants, though. I would choose:
Summoner
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1) Master Summoner - simply overwhelm him with summons.
2) Vanilla - use a melee focused eidolon, buffed from the summoner, and throw in some ranged from the summoner.
Oracle
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1) Wind - I built a Wind oracle with a focus on archery once. Very solid character, plenty of buffs and damage output.
Avoid save-based classes (such as some caster builds). While it's true that these classes can instantly win a one-on-one match with a solid cast, paladin's get free save bonuses. They are serious melee combatants, though. I would choose:
Summoner
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1) Master Summoner - simply overwhelm him with summons.
2) Vanilla - use a melee focused eidolon, buffed from the summoner, and throw in some ranged from the summoner.
Oracle
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1) Wind - I built a Wind oracle with a focus on archery once. Very solid character, plenty of buffs and damage output.
Also, naturally, avoid evil characters.