I don't get this counter thing in a PVP setting everyone seems to be talking about. Also all the posts defending the paladin as a worthy melee without smite is also I think besides the point. In a normal game setting yes paladins are awesome, but in a PVP setting only one thing matters for damage dealers.
Burst, burst and more burst damage. So by far the best melee PVP build is the one that one shots anything and everything reliably, and at level 20 that is the two hand fighter archetype.
Assuming, of course, that the battle takes place in a broom closet.
A Lore Warden with the whip + trip, disarm and grapple feats would be pretty devastating to a paladin. Or any other melee character that can't fly.
Every paladin I have seen takes a 2handed weapon. The best counter to that is the Tetori monk who is LN. He tsckles paladin and the paladin can't use his favorite weapon, nor his favorite ability (smite).
Monk ground and pounds for the win.
More clarification: Half-orc Paladin (Redeemer Paladin) Level 20 and he and the Inquisitor were able to kill the Stag Lord (from the Pathfinder campaign Kingmaker) at level 3 because they were able to give him -8 to all roles and would have been more but the DM took pity on the Stag Lord and just killed him. And they are going to try to role play their alliance even if they aren't allies in the beginning so I may as well try to make them not allies but he is a Redeemer Paladin he will spare his opponents and make them convert if at all possible.how did they manage to give him -8 to all rolls? a level 3 paladin cant do anything besides combat manouvers that can actually impose a penalty, as far as i know. Assuming that i am wrong please tell me what combo they used :)
Remember that Inquisitor... He specialized in fear effects so they stacked fear upon fear on him making him shaken. The Inquisitor got a teamwork feat that allowed them switch places so they kept on switching places so that the paladin would get hit by the attacks from the hard hitting people and the Inquisitor would scare the living crap out of the people so they had no real reason to not lose that fight.
I know the way to beat that portion of their fighting and that is with Immunity to fear (Heroism, Greater, High level Caviler), that or fight outside of 30ft where his fear effects don't work at all.
The Paladin Role plays the Redeemer very well and also if he were to be put into an area full of enemies then he would come out with a bunch of friends.
Thanks for all of the input on killing Paladins everyone!
Would not have thought of some of the options (flying fighters especially)
The sheer fact that an Antipaladin, the epitome of evil and chaos, must adhere to a strict code of conduct, just rubs me the wrong way.
I miss the Blackguard.
Just don't do it then. Power to the PC! If you wanted to play a "Blackguard" then ask. I'd certainly be with you.
I always like your stuff, BBT, if you were playing an "Anti-pallie/Blackguard", what would you do?
Every paladin I have seen takes a 2handed weapon. The best counter to that is the Tetori monk who is LN. He tsckles paladin and the paladin can't use his favorite weapon, nor his favorite ability (smite).
Monk ground and pounds for the win.
Well this one uses one Scimitar, has a free hand (typically carrying a symbol of his deity whose name I cannot spell) and Merciful strike (read advanced race guide or d20pfsrd for the Redeemer Paladin and what they can do). Then couple that with fear effects from an Inquisitor (and because he is immune to fear he does not get effected by them) so this one is a little off of the beaten path for the Paladins that you have seen.
I think a Knight of the Sepulchre, an Anti-Paladin Archetype, could work well.
He slowly becomes undead as he levels, so eventually he can heal himself with all that negative energy.
I would say the best counter for the duo is a mobile monk or fighter type that uses the trip and disam feats.
Backed up by a hybrid caster like bard or magus. Flying and buffing then attack spells that don't have a save or are still worth while if saved.
As said, non-evil to avoid the smite.
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How about a master summoner? Bring in one monster from the Summon Monster IX list, 1d3 monsters from the Summon Monster VIII list or 1d4+1 monsters from the Summon Monster VII list every round, which would stay around for twenty minutes.
I would say anything non-evil. Not giving a paladin their most powerful ability (smite evil) is going to be a bonus.
As for class I would go wizard. Using flight to stay out of melee range is going to be helpful. Also, since a paladin is going to pass most saves you throw at it, due to divine grace, you want to use spells that don't require saves. If you do use saves make them save or suck and push your DCs really high. Save or suck spells are going to help you becuase lay on hands is going to keep the pally going. Also make sure you have scrolls and wands.
Agreed, if it is not a straight anti-paladin then I would make sure it is not evil.
The problem with Anitpaladins, even knights of the sepulcher, is they cannot swift action heal themselves like the regular paladin, and eventually lose. Their only hope is to have a high crit multiplier weapon and hope their inherent fortitude % stops them from being critted and they land a game over crit on the offending paladin.
A Lore Warden can get a CMB with Trip, Grapple and Disarm at +52 while using a whip. First you trip them. When they stand up, you disarm them. When they go to pick up their weapon, you trip them.
Pair them with someone using a reach or ranged weapon. With an archer, you'll get a penalty for attacking someone prone, but killing someone at you're leisure it doesn't really matter.
Even if they use Blessing of Fervor, now the paladin can't use their swift action to heal themselves.
Remember that Inquisitor... He specialized in fear effects so they stacked fear upon fear on him making him shaken. The Inquisitor got a teamwork feat that allowed them switch places so they kept on switching places so that the paladin would get hit by the attacks from the hard hitting people and the Inquisitor would scare the living crap out of the people so they had no real reason to not lose that fight.I know the way to beat that portion of their fighting and that is with Immunity to fear (Heroism, Greater, High level Caviler), that or fight outside of 30ft where his fear effects don't work at all.
** spoiler omitted **
The Paladin Role plays the Redeemer very well and also if he were to be put into an area full of enemies then he would come out with...
No matter how you specialize in fear you can never impose a higher than -2 effect on the opponents as the fear effects does not stack, they improve to the next level (ie shaken, frightened, panicked). It is true however that if he is able to get every enemy panicked then they cant attack and will cover if they get cornered, although in my oppinoin you probably have a very large risk of the bbeg or his servants to just run away, as thats what panicked do.
@ Story archer
Yah sorry about the 98 the paladin can heal everyround, as i simply assumed that its not a level 20 fight, because the OPs post, i dont really make a habit of remembering one broken ability no one uses after the other. Anyway it is still a nice amount of healing, but with absolutely minimal feats the paladin really lose a lot of what makes him good against regular folks he cannot smite.
No matter how you specialize in fear you can never impose a higher than -2 effect on the opponents as the fear effects does not stack, they improve to the next level (ie shaken, frightened, panicked)
That is what he did he advanced it to the next level and when the Stag Lord dropped his weapon and tried to pick it back up he dropped it again over and over again. After about the 4th time this happened the GM just said that the Stag Lord dies because "I say so" (he was so pissed off at those 2 because of all of the minuses to everyone in the room). He could not do anything due to the minuses to the rolls.
Note that with glove of duelig it is +6 from WT for a total of +59
Edit: +24 from PA, +20 from strength, +4 from WS, +4 from WT, and +5 from magic enhancements.
I dunno, I managed to total +65 on damage.
36 Str = +13 Mod
Overhead Chop = Double Str bonus = 26
Power Attack = +12 while Greater Power Attack makes this +24
Weapon Trainging + Gloves = +6
Weapon Enhancement = +5
Grtr Weapon Spec = +4
This totals 2d4 + 65 x5 = 4 * 5 + 65 * 5 = 20 + 325 = 345 average damage on a Devestating Blow.
Boots of Speed + Move and Attack = Dead Enemy. Dumb thing is he can do this every round. The Fighter is going to have something like +40 to hit at this point, and it's unlikely the Paladin can get his AC up to 50 (which only makes it a 50/50 chance of death). Chances are, the Fighter will 1 round most everyone in his path.
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Honestly, as people have said before use maze, it is a DC 20 int check to escape. most non int based characters will have less than a 30% chance to make it and that is if they pick up an int item, more likely the paladin will have a 12 or lower in int making him need to roll a 19 or better to escape it. Also I would not suggest grappling as a freedom of movement ring shuts that down completely. Anyways if this is happening at level 20 a full caster is definitely the way to go especially since you know what you are facing and can use scrolls as much as you want.
ROFL!!!
Master Summoner with Superior Summons decides to use his Summon IX to just flood the Arena with Celestial Tyrannosaurus'. Sure, they're not the best hitters, but the sheer OMGWTF! factor is an auto-win in my book.
I mean, 1d4+2 T-Rexes is just too hilarious a thought to pass up.