I had reason last night to take an in-depth look at stealth, perception, invisibility, combat modifiers, and everything associated with them, and I came to the conclusion (which I hope is wrong) that after the first full combat round, stealth is effectively pointless for Rogues attempting to sneak attack.
Ignoring the sniping option (which has its uses, certainly), by RAW (and if you don't use the Hidden condition created for the stealth revision test), once all combatants cease to be flat footed, the circumstances by which an opponent can lose their Dex bonus to AC all rely on factors completely separate to the use of the Stealth skill.
I would appreciate it if anyone could prove me wrong, by pointing out the rules which allow a Rogue who is using Stealth alone (assuming successful checks) to sneak attack an opponent.
Of course, if I'm not wrong, it would be useful to know that, too.
Only thing I can think of is if you use a bluff/feint to take attention off of you, then you move to somewhere with concealment, then you can roll stealth to be undetected again. From there you can once again sneak attack, I believe. Not sure though.
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I believe hide in plain sight lets you use stealth even while observed which could allow a rogue to set up another ranged sneak attack (SA).
Otherwise once you are observed, you can't use the stealth skill. There is always spells like vanish, invisibility, ect which would also work for a SA attempt
There are some niche builds you can do to make it useful. But in general, yes. Stealth is useful as an opener...not so much as a method to use consistently.
Let's see (I'll include all possible sources I can think of, some of which don't contribute, for completeness):
Perception:
"Check: Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent's Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised. If you are successful, you notice the opponent and can react accordingly. If you fail, your opponent can take a variety of actions, including sneaking past you and attacking you."
Stealth:
You'd have to include the first line of description text (which reads like a general summary, not a specific statement of facts) in order for this to be useful in this application.
Sneak Attack:
Only mentions "denied a Dexterity bonus to AC" and flanking.
Surprise:
Removes DEX to AC, but officially only counts for the start of combat.
Total Concealment:
"If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment)."
Blinded (possible RAI):
A blind creature loses DEX to AC, so it could be argued that "blind against one creature" would be denied DEX against that creature. Probably not convincing enough on its own, however.
Uncanny Dodge:
"Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible." This implies [edit: it does more than imply, as the "invisible" condition states, but I'll get to that in a bit] that invisible attackers deny their defenders their DEX bonus to AC, but it is unclear whether "invisible" specifically refers to the [edited] Invisible condition (game term), or a simple lack of line of sight (common English). If the latter, this seals the deal, but I can't find something that says that.
(to be continued)
a rogue's real talent is more sneak attacks which do not rely on stealth.
I find stealth more useful to avoid combat all together.
Stealth really relies heavily on cover. If your a stealth based character in a combat where there is little to no cover then yes, your at a disadvantage.
There are a decent amount of abilities, spells and items that can help counter that but some take time to aquire.
Invisibility, Greater Invisibility, cleverly used illusions for cover or distraction, Hide in Plain Sight, creative RP while disguised (make them think your a friend and stab them out of nowhere for one example), actual real cover, Bluff checks to Feint are all really common means to either get your opponent flat footed, suprized or to achieve stealth like status in the midst of combat. While most of those only allow one attack while 'stealthed' some like Greater Invis give it to you constantly (unless they have a counter measure).
But no, stealth should not be easy to use after you have been directly spotted in combat and never really has been. While there are prestige classes and powers to allow it, it is a powerful option when your able to use it nearly at will. Sneak Attack for one, the reduced defensive ability of opponents for another or the ability to escape a bad situation at will are just three things that come to mind that stealth 'at will' would allow.
Like a great many things in Pathfinder, it is a situational tool.
Continued:
Dexterity
"Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack."
and
Armor Class
"If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC."
Can contribute to an interpretation or a ruling.
That's all I can find. It's not enough for highly demanding interpretations that require full letter of the law, but should be enough for most rulings, outside of PFS, anyway.
Do you need bluff to take advantage of Concealment or Cover?
No. While it may be helpful depending on the situation it is not required. If you have enough concealment and cover that an opponent cannot actually see you then you can stealth. He will know what square you entered when you started stealthing but if your stealth check works, he won't know where you are after that point and will not even be sure your IN that square if you decide not to move at all after a succesful stealth check.
That said if he moves where there is no cover between you and him any more then he can directly view you and stealth will be broken again without other extenuating reasons (like being in the dark and the enemy not having a form of night sight, etc.)
Now, situationally it could be a benefit to bluff the opponent and move into cover as well, but bluff is not required to use cover in battle.
If the goal is to get to use that sneak attack dice, all you have to do is deny someone their Dex to their AC. This doesn't to be limited to just attacking from stealth. Feints, flanks, and various number of effects can accomplish this other than stealth.
I'm aware of the conditions (stunned, immobilised and so forth) that deny Dex bonus to AC. My point is that Stealth in and of itself does not.
My read of RAW shows that while a foe is flat-footed, they are vulnerable to sneak attack, and Stealth offers the Rogue the greatest opportunity to get a surprise round, giving the potential (if the Rogue beats the target's initiative) for 2 rounds of sneak attack, however once the foe has acted, Stealth is not viable.
A scenario, to try to clear this up:
The party enters the darkened dungeon temple of the evil Cleric and his many undead minions. Perception checks are rolled, and the PCs all get a surprise round.
Surprise round: Most of the party move into position, the Rogue uses the cover of darkness to Stealth around the side of the temple, keeping behind pews and columns.
Round 1: Real combat begins. The Rogue has the highest initiative in the encounter, and continues to Stealth around the outskirts, trying to reach the evil cleric at the altar.
Round 2: All characters have acted once, nobody is being denied their Dex bonus to AC for being flat footed, the evil cleric has shrugged off everything that's been thrown at him, the party's only hope is the Rogue, who has managed to remain completely undetected to this point, and is now in a position to attack the evil cleric... But can't sneak attack him, because NONE of the conditions which would deny the evil cleric his Dex bonus to AC apply.
Which is the point of my question, really: as a GM, I would rule that the Rogue can, in fact, sneak attack the cleric, because the cleric is unaware of the Rogue's presence, but am I correct in my interpretation of the RAW?
(Please note, that having identified this problem, I fully intend to use the Hidden condition method of dealing with Stealth, and I'm almost certain that this type of situation is the exact reason that alteration to the rules was posited in the first place, I just want to be sure I haven't missed something glaringly obvious in the existing rules before I start handing out copies of a revision to my players.)
On a related topic:
Would a rogue archer X/ Shadow Dancer 1 (HIPS) be a viable character?
Rd1: Stealth (HIPS), Ranged Attack with sneak, move, Stealth Again
Rd2: Repeat
Assuming your Stealth was maxed out and succeeded every round wouldn't you get sneak attack every round? What if you sniped every round and had the halfling racial ability + feat to reduce that penalty to 0?
I don't think I understand what you're trying to get at. How do you propose that you should be able to sneak up on someone six seconds after you stab them?
Chemlak:
As long as someone is unaware of another person then they are flat-footed to that person. So yes, the rogue sneaking around the periphery of a combat WILL result in a sneak attack on the evil cleric (for exactly 1 attack).
- Gauss
Chemlak:
As long as someone is unaware of another person then they are flat-footed to that person. So yes, the rogue sneaking around the periphery of a combat WILL result in a sneak attack on the evil cleric (for exactly 1 attack).
- Gauss
Raw, no.
Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Once a character acts they are NOT flat footed against you, or against anyone. Its kind of silly that a Kobold rogue popping out of a barrel and stabbing you sneak attacks you if you're walking by, but not in the middle of a fight with the ogre standing next to the barrel but.. there it is.
Denied dex is a little different than flat footed. RAW there's nothing in stealth that lets you deny someone dex either.
BigNorseWolf: You are correct. I should have used denied dex bonus to AC.
This is the problem with Stealth. It is a big grey area that by RAW does nearly nothing. It is not clearly defined. This is why they were working on the Stealth playtest.
The way I run stealth is that if you succeed on your stealth check you can attack the target once as if you were invisible. The stealth playtest seems to work the same way.
- Gauss
It might be useful if you have greater invisibility on and are fighting monsters with extremely high perception scores?
Stealth allows you to prevent enemies from detecting you. This is intensely, blindingly, exceedingly useful.
It's a sad state of affairs that when Stealth is "intensely, blindingly, exceedingly useful", that just means it probably isn't being played as the rules say =/
The stealth playtest went a long way to this, but...
Stealth allows you to prevent enemies from detecting you. This is intensely, blindingly, exceedingly useful.
It is... for npcs
In order to effectively use stealth
1) You can't be carrying a light source. For most PC's this is a problem because the DM decides if you're in a dungeon/temple or not, and most pc's don't have darkvision. However if the DM is running the monsters underground, it will have darkvision. If its in the woods at night it will have low light vision.
2) You need cover or concealment: the dm decides whether an area has cover or concealment. You also need the enemy to NOT have cover or concealment.
3) RAW It can only give you a surprise round, its neigh useless once combat starts: If the enemy hears any of your friends coming they're not surprised anymore, so you either need to move well in front of your party (dangerous) or travel in an all sneaky group (something the DM can do by monster design but you cannot as a player)
4) if you want to set up an ambush, you have to know when an NPC will be arriving somewhere. NPC's always seem to know where the party is going to be and when they'll get there.
3) RAW [stealth] can only give you a surprise round, its neigh useless once combat starts:
If I out-stealth my enemies I control when, or even IF, combat starts.
(ok not total control, but a great measure of control)
3) RAW [stealth] can only give you a surprise round, its neigh useless once combat starts:If I out-stealth my enemies I control when, or even IF, combat starts.
(ok not total control, but a great measure of control)
Unless your friends are equally stealthy, you need to be quite a ways from them to do this, which is very dangerous in a game where you usually run into things designed to challenge the entire party.
Unless your friends are equally stealthy, you need to be quite a ways from them to do this, which is very dangerous in a game where you usually run into things designed to challenge the entire party.
It's a tradeoff of risk for strategic advantage. I'll say it's often a good deal for the stealther.
It's a tradeoff of risk for strategic advantage. I'll say it's often a good deal for the stealther.
Unless your friends are equally stealthy, you need to be quite a ways from them to do this, which is very dangerous in a game where you usually run into things designed to challenge the entire party.
There's too many ways/things to eat the stealther.
Smooth corridors= no cover
Smooth corridors in the dark= no cover from anything with darkvision (ie, everything you will ever see down there, ever)
tremor sense= I know where you are
Sideshaft= you have cover till you pass in front of the shaft
Scent: Roflcopters stealth depending on the DM (at least one item is built around that idea). Everything and its brother in the monster manual has it.
Blindsense: i know you're there little thief!
Blindsight: "Hi. You look delicious!"
Thank you! I have a stealthy character in Serpent's Skull, with a habit of ranging ahead. If/when we ever go underground, I will make a point of stopping that and staying close.
Ironically in combat, stealth is only good if you happen to have improved invi on you. With good stealth you will beat the perception checks of the opponents and never need to worry with the cumbersome cover.
But, as usual, this goes both ways and a very stealthy Ninja NPC with imp invi is just evil against a party without true seeing or the like.
So they are revising this? Stealth is iconic, IMO it has got to have its uses in a good fantasy game!
Of course when I have played and DM'd it has always been handy but I wonder now if I'm doing anything wrong?
They already did a revision here and did follow this one up in the month after.
So they are revising this? Stealth is iconic, IMO it has got to have its uses in a good fantasy game!
They've said that the changes couldn't go in as a patch , as there was nowhere in a book/reprinting for it short of a new edition
[qupote]Of course when I have played and DM'd it has always been handy but I wonder now if I'm doing anything wrong?
Probably, but its really the rules fault, not yours. If you want to see why the rules break down, look for a thread called why jack b nimble can't steal a chicken.
Re: Jack be Nimble and the chicken
You know I remember that thread, but for some reason I couldn't reproduce the problems it suggested.
I can't remember where I disagreed with it, it's been a long time.
It had something to do with distance, sleep, passive and scent. There was something different about the way I was reading those factors compared to that poster, and my reading led to something that worked out ok in my games so I went with it.
Scent: Roflcopters stealth depending on the DM (at least one item is built around that idea). Everything and its brother in the monster manual has it.
which item?
Scent: Roflcopters stealth depending on the DM (at least one item is built around that idea). Everything and its brother in the monster manual has it.which item?
smoke lasts, creatures with the scent special ability
must make Perception checks, opposed by the Stealth
checks of any creatures within the smoke, to use scent to
locate creatures within the smoke. If a creature remains
in scentbane incense for 5 rounds or more, the smoke
clings to it for 1 round after it leaves, making it similarly
difficult to find by scent during that time.
Ok, here's one of the things about Stealth and 'the first round of combat' I so very often see over looked - and not just in Pathfinder, but in practically every system.
Stealth is an opposed checked. My Stealth vs Your Perception.
But in a group setting, it's My Stealth vs Ya'll's Perception. Each person's perception.
So if I attack one member of the group, unless I am out in the open when I do so (assuming I don't have Hide in Plain Sight, or even simpler, perform a Distraction), and there is a direct line of sight to me from each and every person in the group, I may - and probably do - have Stealth against one or more members of that group, even though I have attacked.
Think of it like an Illusion. No one sees through it, it's still real. One person sees through and tells the others, they are now more likely to see through it - but there's no certainty that they will.
So when I attacked one member of the group, if I'm in line of sight of one or more of the other members, those individuals will see me (and even, then, that's a GM call, as their backs may be turned, etc). And if they call out to the rest, (or I failed to put the first guy down in one round), the others, individually, would need to A) come within line of sight, or B) defeat My Stealth vs His Perception, in order to overcome my Stealth.
The Sniping portion of the skill is in reference to the person I shot, and may or may not apply any others in the group. The person who got shot knows there's someone out there, and someone in the group may have seen him get shot, or have been looking where the shot originated. But until they are informed (or see a dead companion with an arrow through his throat), they do not know someone is in the area.
would need to A) come within line of sight, or B) defeat My Stealth vs His Perception, in order to overcome my Stealth.
Nope.
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
So unless you are sniping, once you attack someone you're no longer hiding from anyone. You're standing out there in the open, plain as day to anyone that comes around the corner.
they do not know someone is in the area.
An arrow sticking out of someone's but has a dc of 0 to spot. Even the dumbest adventurer is going to think 'sniper' when they see it, NOT "hey guys, watch out for that arrow tree over there"
They make a lot less sense for someone firing out of the bushes lining the road. Especially if the target goes down, you might not even know which side of the road the arrow came from.
IRL: its a good tactic because people that get plunked with an arrow die. In the D&D hitpoint system not so much past level 2 or 3. The person isn't going to drop, and it doesn't take more than room temperature IQ to say "Huh. the arrow is sticking out of his right side, mayby i ought to look over there..."
If you're more than 30 feet out you're not sneak attacking. If you're only 30 feet away that -20 is going to get you spotted. even if you're further out you're rolling against up to three perception checks per round per person you're ambushing (2 move actions and the reactive) SOMEONE is going to spot you.
would need to A) come within line of sight, or B) defeat My Stealth vs His Perception, in order to overcome my Stealth.Nope.
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
So unless you are sniping, once you attack someone you're no longer hiding from anyone. You're standing out there in the open, plain as day to anyone that comes around the corner.
That's the key comes around the corner.
If I successfully beat an opposed Stealth vs Perception check on 4 guards, guarding one wall each of a building, and I attack one of them, unless the other three come around the corner and have line of sight on me, I'm still Stealthed so far as they are concerned.
Now the attack itself may trigger a Perception check to hear the attack, and have reason to come around that corner, but if they don't hear it, and don't have reason to come around the corner, then the previous Stealth vs Perception roll still stands for them. I am not 'using Stealth while attacking', because I've already used Stealth, before I attack - and for them, nothing has broken that Stealth, or triggered another check.
And if one (or more) do come around the corner, there's nothing preventing me from using Stealth next round, either through Hide in Plain Sight or a Distraction, so long as I'm not attacking, running, or charging.
An arrow sticking out of someone's but has a dc of 0 to spot. Even the dumbest adventurer is going to think 'sniper' when they see it, NOT "hey guys, watch out for that arrow tree over there"
Absolutely. But, again, you have to have the opportunity to even make the check. It doesn't matter that the DC is 0 to see your friend is shot, if you don't have line of sight on your friend to even see that he's been shot.
If you don't have the opportunity to even have that information (either seeing the action, seeing the results, or being told of it), then you don't get the benefit of a new opposed Stealth vs Perception roll.
Again, think of it like an Illusion. If you've failed your save initially, you have no reason to believe it's an illusion. Until you have new information to work from, you don't get to make a new save.
While I agree that there is a tactical advantage to remaining in stealth against some opponents in a combat, the important consideration (for the purposes of why I created this thread) is that there is no mechanical advantage to it.
Taking the "shot a foe while out of LOS of his friends" scenario, while his friends might have no idea where to look, they know to look, and regardless, there is nothing our stealthed character can do to obtain any sort of attack advantage against any of his friends. He gets no attack bonuses and cannot sneak attack, despite his enemies not knowing where he is. He could be hiding right around a corner with a readied action, and he just gets to make a normal attack at normal damage, because nobody will be flat-footed at that stage of an encounter, and he can do nothing to deny those foes their Dex bonus to AC.