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Hello,
A player of mine wants to get an extra attack with shuriken by taking the two weapon fighting feat. Is this legit? Can he throw more skuriken with two-handed fighting?
From him:
"Quick Draw - You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
---Removes reload time (my hands get reloaded with shuriken as a free action)
Two Weapon Fighting - Reduce penalties on two weapon fighting
---Makes throwing 2 shuriken at a time feasible
Flurry of Stars- Throw two extra shurikens on a full round action, -2 penalty
Rapid Shot - When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.
---Adds one extra throw to full round attack
So then when the ninja has a high enough attack mod to get the second attack, a full round action gives 2x2 attacks for Two Weapon Fighting +1 for Rapid shot, +2 for Flurry of Stars, and eventually +1 for Improved Two Weapon fighting and maybe even +1 for Greater Two Weapon Fighting, giving the ninja many attacks. Up to 9 if my logic works (though at a pretty severe minus to attack bonus, I probably would reduce the shuriken count for a better attack bonus). If that premise proves valid, other feats and ninja tricks I'd include:
Ninja tricks: Flurry of Stars, Pressure Points, Deadly Range
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Mobility, Shot on the Run
The ninja would be a short-range semi-automatic shurikeneer, with the idea being you ninja-flip into combat, shuriken's spring from your blurred hands at nearby enemies, one here or there to dispatch minions and the rest at the primary target, then ninja-fly out, ninja-style. Also, I'd get flanking from 10 feet away, which eventually will give me Sneak Attack damage on top of all the individual shuriken. How many shuriken will be determined by how high I can get my attack bonus to offset the "more throws less accuracy" effect.
"
Also, I keep hearing how crappy shuriken are. Anyone have any experience with this?
You can TWF with thrown axes, so I don't see why you couldn't with shuriken. Shuriken have the advantage of not even requiring quick draw, as they're treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If you have a +4 strength bonus then you are probably even less likely to hit. That's the problem with any ranged build. Also, when the archer in the party gets his pretty +1 longbow, the ninja is spending 200gp per round in disposable flying stars. It's cheaper to just throw gold pieces.
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If you have a +4 strength bonus then you are probably even less likely to hit. That's the problem with any ranged build. Also, when the archer in the party gets his pretty +1 longbow, the ninja is spending 200gp per round in disposable flying stars. It's cheaper to just throw gold pieces.
On the other hand, greater magic weapon is a readily available spell (your party cleric or wizard will easily have access to it) and can cover 50 pieces of ammunition for an hour per level. Combine that with at will greater invisibility from level 10 and you can have quite the nice throwing build, especially if each star carries 1 dexterity or strength damage.
I'm not sure he needs quick draw. I think because shuriken are treated as ammunition he can draw them as a free action. But I may be wrong.
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I'm not sure he needs quick draw. I think because shuriken are treated as ammunition he can draw them as a free action. But I may be wrong.
No, you're correct. I know a player of a ninja who will draw her katana and approach an enemy; if she cannot reach the enemy in one turn, she throws a shuriken instead.
Galahad2112: Once your invisibile ninja is using Greater Invisibility only 1 of those attacks has sneak attack.
Attack 1 (while invis): Target suffers sneak attack. This breaks invis.
Attack 2 (no longer invis): No sneak attack (unless other reasons are used).
Etc.
Stealth is the same way. You only benefit from the first attack.
- Gauss
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Galahad2112: Once your invisibile ninja is using Greater Invisibility only 1 of those attacks has sneak attack.
Attack 1 (while invis): Target suffers sneak attack. This breaks invis.
Attack 2 (no longer invis): No sneak attack (unless other reasons are used).
Etc.Stealth is the same way. You only benefit from the first attack.
- Gauss
Invisibility doesn't break with Greater Invisibility, so all attacks would get sneak.
I don't think TWF works with shuriken as they are ranged weapons. I think he wants to throw an extra star he needs to use rapidshot.
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I don't think TWF works with shuriken as they are ranged weapons. I think he wants to throw an extra star he needs to use rapidshot.
They apply to Alchemists bombs, why not shuriken?
Alchemist: If an alchemist has the Fast bombs discovery, can he use Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, haste, and similar abilities and effects to add more attacks?
As written, yes, all of these apply because fast bombs "functions just like a full-attack with a ranged weapon."
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10
Fair enough, then is the question abouting using TWF and rapid shot to get an extra star per hand?
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Excellent guys, thanks a lot!
Gauss says that if you make a full round attack with invisibility, only the first attack has sneak attack. Is this true? Along those lines, if you are throwing from stealth, do you also only have sneak attack for the first roll in the full attack?
If so, how on earth do you get sneak attack for the entire full round attack?
Excellent guys, thanks a lot!
Gauss says that if you make a full round attack with invisibility, only the first attack has sneak attack. Is this true? Along those lines, if you are throwing from stealth, do you also only have sneak attack for the first roll in the full attack?
If so, how on earth do you get sneak attack for the entire full round attack?
Greater invisibility
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OP, if you'd like the rules cite, this is from the Combat Chapter on Two-Weapon Fighting:
"Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon."
Edit: Ninja'd. How appropriate.
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So, attacking from stealth, only the first attack of a full round attack gets sneak attack added? Confirm or deny?
(Also, to Christopher Van Horn - I once knew a Christopher Van-Horn. Went to high school in LA, right off sunset? Is that you by any chance?)
Deny. You get your Sneak Attack on ALL attacks in that Full Attack Action.
Ossian, I believe you are wrong after wading thru all the stealth posts. Flanking, yes, all SA. From stealth, you are observed after the first attack. Unless I misread all the kerfluffle about rogues getting the beatdown stick.
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So, attacking from stealth, only the first attack of a full round attack gets sneak attack added? Confirm or deny?
(Also, to Christopher Van Horn - I once knew a Christopher Van-Horn. Went to high school in LA, right off sunset? Is that you by any chance?)
Nope, I'm a native of Washington. Gotta live near the addiction you know.
and sneak only on the first attack, unless your opponent is still flatfooted because you beat his initiative or some other mitigating condition.
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Geez, well, if it's only on the first attack that makes ranged sneak attack pretty bad. Can anybody find an FAQ or official quote on this? It seems not everybody agrees (I would probably give sneak attack on all).
If you stealthed up to a dude and made a full round melee attack, would you just get your first attack as sneak attack? Say, you are invisible and you walk right next to a guy?
Is greater invisibility the only way to make stealthing for sneak attack viable?
And Christopher, you should know there is another Chris Van-Horn walking around down somewhere in Southern California.
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Deny. You get your Sneak Attack on ALL attacks in that Full Attack Action.So, attacking from stealth, only the first attack of a full round attack gets sneak attack added? Confirm or deny?
(Also, to Christopher Van Horn - I once knew a Christopher Van-Horn. Went to high school in LA, right off sunset? Is that you by any chance?)
This is incorrect. As soon as you've attacked once, you are no longer in stealth.
Until you can get the improved vanishing trick, tiny hut can be pretty good for this. The best way at low levels is Improved Initiative.
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Ossian, I believe you are wrong after wading thru all the stealth posts. Flanking, yes, all SA. From stealth, you are observed after the first attack. Unless I misread all the kerfluffle about rogues getting the beatdown stick.
So what you are saying is that when you are denied your Dex bonus to AC it only effects your first time getting hit from the enemy that round, and any iterative attacks are including your Dex bonus? So you react in the middle of someone's attacks and change your current AC?
Can you link me to any of these misreadings?
is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she
can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage anytime her
target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether
the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when
the rogue f lanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6
at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels
thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a
sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged
attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is
within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap,
whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak
attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal
damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage
to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with
the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to
pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot.
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature
with concealment.
Where in there does it specify only the first attack of the round? Now my emphasis will argue different to what you say.
Yes, if the reason they're flat-footed is because they haven't noticed you, then after your first attack, they are no longer flat-footed. Once you hit the enemy, they can react and thus aren't denied their dex (unless they'd be denied it for some other reason).
It's also the reason why ranged sneak attack is abysmal until you get a wand of greater invisibility or use some niche builds.
You can see that the devs preserved that rule in the Stealth Playtest part 2. Attacking a creature ends the hidden condition there, and hidden is necessary to get the sneak attack.
You knew what I meant.
Usually, making an attack against a creature ends the hidden condition.
It is clearly defined there. Once you make an attack against a creature, it's gone. An attack. Not a full attack. Not a series of attacks. One single attack.
Note that the "Usually" there is for Sniping, described below.
We also see SMR say "only with first attack" here.
...which I'm going to List for future reference...
but that effectively neuters a rogue's damage. Kind of happy I don't play rogues.
so re-reading this thread, its legit to use TWF to get one extra attack per round with your offhand and then use Rapid Shot to gain 2 additional thrown weapon attacks(one in each hand)? With only a -4 (-2 from TWF + -2 from RS)
Do I understand that right?
No, just one extra attack from Rapid Shot.
Base: 1 attack.
Ninja has Rapid Shot, but not TWF: 2 attacks at -2.
Ninja has TWF, but not RS: 2 attacks at -2.
Ninja has TWF and RS: 3 attacks at -4.
its legit to use TWF to get one extra attack per round with your offhand and then use Rapid Shot to gain 2 additional thrown weapon attacks(one in each hand)?
Rapid Shot: "When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round."
It says one additional time, not one additional time per limb or per weapon or per anything. Just one.
The only real way to make this work prior to greater invis is to take the rogue or ninja tricks that let you go first in the surprise round take a full attack in the surprise round and the all your opponents are still flat footed in the durst round.
Then I suppose pointy stars for every one.
thanks, I thought I was going nuts for a second. Didn't catch the Flurry of Stars for the extra attacks.
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The only real way to make this work prior to greater invis is to take the rogue or ninja tricks that let you go first in the surprise round take a full attack in the surprise round and the all your opponents are still flat footed in the durst round.
Then I suppose pointy stars for every one.
Tiny hut, darkvision and darkness, dirty trick to blind, blindness/deafness, glitterdust...
Invisibility doesn't break with Greater Invisibility, so all attacks would get sneak.Galahad2112: Once your invisibile ninja is using Greater Invisibility only 1 of those attacks has sneak attack.
Attack 1 (while invis): Target suffers sneak attack. This breaks invis.
Attack 2 (no longer invis): No sneak attack (unless other reasons are used).
Etc.Stealth is the same way. You only benefit from the first attack.
- Gauss
This is why I shouldn't post late at night. I thought I had said 'Unless your invisible ninja...'.
- Gauss
That is hardly defined. There is a lack of specificity as to what constitutes an "attack". Under normal circumstances you can not react in the middle of someone else's turn. I guess it is what it is, but that effectively neuters a rogue's damage. Kind of happy I don't play rogues.
of
Of course you can react to something on someone else's turn -- what do you think an attack of opportunity is?
Nova alchemist... ouch.
Ya alchemists can nova quite nicely, biggest problem is the cap on the number of bombs you can have in a day. On the up side they cost nothing.
Want to really nova with the alchemist? cast touch injection with multiple detonates. Just touch someone and they can explode for 10? 15? d6s and 20? 30? d6 to everyone around them. Just make sure your immune or at least highly resistant ;)
As for the expense of the shurikens, there is abundant ammunition that would become almost mandatory. UMD with abundant ammunition and (greater) magic fang would be a worthy expense, even if you failed the check a few times.
Galahad2112: Once your invisibile ninja is using Greater Invisibility only 1 of those attacks has sneak attack.
Attack 1 (while invis): Target suffers sneak attack. This breaks invis.
Attack 2 (no longer invis): No sneak attack (unless other reasons are used).
Etc.Stealth is the same way. You only benefit from the first attack.
- Gauss
Two things wrong with this.
1) Greater Invis doesn't break on attack.
2) If a character is flat-footed against your attacks, he's flat-footed until it's his initiative and has a chance to act.
So, if you're Stealthed, and on your initiative, you make 20 attacks as a full round action. Yes, you're no longer Stealthed with regards to that character (you may still have Stealth against other characters, however), but since it's still your initiative, and he has not had a chance to react, your other 19 attacks are also flat-footed attacks.
You can indeed throw many shuriken per round by combining Rapid Shot with TWF. Later on you can take ITWF and GTWF to make even more attacks. Monks can do something similar with Flurry of Blows but rarely seem to bother.
The Ninja, quite fittingly, is probably better suited to specializing in shuriken than many other classes though. For one thing, the Ninja can make yet another shuriken attack by spending a ki point. The Ninja can also get sneak attack for being invisible without resorting to wands and such by using the right ninja tricks, listed below:
“Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.”
“Invisible Blade (Su): Whenever a ninja uses the vanishing trick ninja trick, she is treated as if she were under the effects of greater invisibility. The ninja must have the vanishing trick ninja trick before selecting this ninja trick.”
I'll try to post some thoughts on making such a build more effective if I have time later on. I had a shuriken focused PC once in 3.5, and it was pretty fun...haven't tried it in PF yet