Good work 3.5 Loyalist. canny and insightful Observations from that protected species thread. Off topic I would just like to also note in passing an intimidating level of intellect has been displayed by some authors here! Two remind me of the Sheldon Cooper, Amy Fowler duo of The Big Bang Theory. Most impressive.
Cheers.
*Toasts with tea in a small cup*
To less threads locked and shut down for weak reasons!
P.S: I don't like big bang theory or sheldon cooper at all, but I won't hold that against you. ; )
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No no, you can't. You're either a godless European and you want more boobies and less gore, or you're a prude Amurican and you want more blood and less sodomy. It's a binary choice.Of course one can ask why images of guts being spilled never raise any concern but hey, it's Americans and their dumb "BLOOD = FINE, NIPPLES = BAD" thing.I'd be good for having less of both personally. I'm both prudish and easily queasy.
So, I can't be a godless Amurican who wants more boobies AND more gore?
Cheers.
*Toasts with tea in a small cup*
To less threads locked and shut down for weak reasons!
P.S: I don't like big bang theory or sheldon cooper at all, but I won't hold that against you. ; )
Not a sheldon fan myself. I was referring to The anti elite And pippi. Pathar sounds like a formidable chap as well, not looking forward to criticism from him regarding my level of composition!
To less threads locked and shut down for weak reasons!
I think the problem is that what consitutes "sufficient reason" to lock a thread is subjective.
Another problem is thinking that the phrase "shouldnt lock the thread" has any substantive meaning beyond being a personal preference.
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Not a sheldon fan myself. I was referring to The anti elite And pippi.
*Crosses fingers* Oh please, oh please, oh please let him think I'm the Amy Fowler character! Then I can finally have something positive to write in my dream journal! I'm going to go sharpen my pencils right now! :)
Not a sheldon fan myself. I was referring to The anti elite And pippi.
and here I thought it was TOZ and I :(
time to go cry in the shower
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I'll reiterate what I said in another thread:
If you don't like the moderation around here, you are welcome to leave.
Hear hear.
Chief Technical Officer
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And I can't imagine that moderation from Paizo staff members somehow exists in a vacuum, completely disregarding the personas of the posters in any given thread.
Speaking for myself only:
When my attention is pulled to a thread, it's usually because there's a storm of flags surrounding it. At that point, I'm very aware that my own attitude is likely to be "mildly annoyed at everyone" because things have deviated from my ideal that our community can collectively act like the responsible, thoughtful, intelligent people that I choose to believe we all can be. Because I don't want my attitude at that moment to color my impressions of people who may just be having a bad day, I actually try really hard not to even *look* at who is talking, and just look at what's being said.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Actually, if only once side is complaining and flagging, then a moderator that locks a thread is taking the side of those that complain (and not those that aren't complaining).
It takes multiple flags on a post to get a moderator's attention. If there are multiple flags on a post, odds are very good that somebody is indeed being a jerk.
So yes, I *absolutely* take the side of people who use the flagging system as it's intended.
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Chief Technical Officer
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You know, when I have to remove posts or lock threads on the messageboards, it makes me feel very much the same way I feel when I have to clean up pet vomit from my carpet. I do it not because I want to, but because if I try to avoid it, it will only get worse.
Because I don't want my attitude at that moment to color my impressions of people who may just be having a bad day, I actually try really hard not to even *look* at who is talking, and just look at what's being said.
That's a good incentive for us to be better behaved. It's easy to get snippy and sarcastic with someone who's irritating you without remembering a forum back-and-forth isn't actually a private conversation, even though it feels like one. What you say is being said to everyone.
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WHY DID YOU HAVE TO MAKE THAT THREAD ON THE CARPET INSTEAD OF THE HARDWOOD?!
Not a sheldon fan myself. I was referring to The anti elite And pippi.and here I thought it was TOZ and I :(
time to go cry in the shower
Don't cry, Lamontius!
I think of you as Amy Fowler! :)
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You know, when I have to remove posts or lock threads on the messageboards, it makes me feel very much the same way I feel when I have to clean up pet vomit from my carpet. I do it not because I want to, but because if I try to avoid it, it will only get worse.
That's a delightful metaphor. Thanks. Now any time my carefully considered opinion gets swept away in a moderation purge because someone fifty comments back said something one of your people considers just a little too mean, I'll think, "Awesome! Vic has likened my words to the effluvium of his domesticated animals."
I'll reiterate what I said in another thread:
If you don't like the moderation around here, you are welcome to leave.
I can also suggest its improvement. Which is what I am doing FRIEND.
>:D
Actually, if only once side is complaining and flagging, then a moderator that locks a thread is taking the side of those that complain (and not those that aren't complaining).It takes multiple flags on a post to get a moderator's attention. If there are multiple flags on a post, odds are very good that somebody is indeed being a jerk.
So yes, I *absolutely* take the side of people who use the flagging system as it's intended.
Or, someone is losing an argument, or angry at what someone has said, or enraged by contrary opinions, or flag trolling. Totally off the top of my head, there are any number of reasons a person can flag, not all of them valid to close the thread and shut all the posters down.
You know, when I have to remove posts or lock threads on the messageboards, it makes me feel very much the same way I feel when I have to clean up pet vomit from my carpet. I do it not because I want to, but because if I try to avoid it, it will only get worse.That's a delightful metaphor. Thanks. Now any time my carefully considered opinion gets swept away in a moderation purge because someone fifty comments back said something one of your people considers just a little too mean, I'll think, "Awesome! Vic has likened my words to the effluvium of his domesticated animals."
Yeah it was great wasn't it? I've flagged that snarky comment on many posters as "personal insult/abusive". There is getting defensive, then there is just attacking all manner of posters at once. Tsk tsk tsk.
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I choose not to flag, due to stoicism. Glad to know when I am getting ganged up on in an argument and standing my own ground that Vic is against me as well... ha! The more the merrier I suppose.
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I happen to agree with Vic on this, but I'm also uncomfortable with the amount of venom leaking out of this thread. So I'll leave the rest of this thread to those who wish to continue and, which ever side you take on this issue, I wish you well.
So long and thx for all the fish.
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I choose not to flag, due to stoicism. Glad to know when I am getting ganged up on in an argument and standing my own ground that Vic is against me as well... ha! The more the merrier I suppose.
A shame moderator justice is on the side with the most flags. That doesn't seem right to me either, but being offended carries weight and sway these days. So, the more the merrier!
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I happen to agree with Vic on this, but I'm also uncomfortable with the amount of venom leaking out of this thread. So I'll leave the rest of this thread to those who wish to continue and, which ever side you take on this issue, I wish you well.
So long and thx for all the fish.
No venom. Just joy, good times and sharing some posting and opinions together.
No one is taking poison damage right?
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No one informed me a saving throw was in order ;)
Although I think he just proved my point(s) regarding the increased number of power gamers, they are untouchable for being flag happy and as vic pointed out... he's taking sides. All information that could have been useful in my previous arguments...hm.
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Although I think he just proved my point(s) regarding the increased number of power gamers, they are untouchable for being flag happy and as vic pointed out... he's taking sides. All information that could have been useful in my previous arguments...hm.
God do you people even hear...err read yourselves? He didn't say he takes sides as in this side is in the wrong and this side is right. He is on the side of those who use the system "correctly" not "flag happy".
Oh right I forgot "power gamers" are self entitled children who only want to play a hack n slash game where as the non-power gamers are master thespians who have turned our humble hobby into an art form. That shall not be sullied by anime, large swords, or guns.
Or, someone is losing an argument, or angry at what someone has said, or enraged by contrary opinions, or flag trolling. Totally off the top of my head, there are any number of reasons a person can flag, not all of them valid to close the thread and shut all the posters down.
There's no such thing as "valid" it's just a nice sounding word for whether you agree with it or not.
This is all subjective. You're complaining that the moderators dont share your views about what's reasonable (at the same time as celebrating the divergence of opinions, ironically).
Internet forums are not democratic - paizo invites us to come here and play nicely (the definition of "nicely" being entirely within their purview).
Due to their open approach, you're welcome to make suggestions about where you think the line should be drawn (they could ban such discussion, after all). Continually suggesting there's some kind of objective standard (by declaring what "should" happen or identifying some reasons as "valid") is silly.
Now now that's really neither here nor there at this point. Though honestly as vast as this forum is, a perfect solution that satisfies everyone eludes me at the moment.
You know, when I have to remove posts or lock threads on the messageboards, it makes me feel very much the same way I feel when I have to clean up pet vomit from my carpet. I do it not because I want to, but because if I try to avoid it, it will only get worse.That's a delightful metaphor. Thanks. Now any time my carefully considered opinion gets swept away in a moderation purge because someone fifty comments back said something one of your people considers just a little too mean, I'll think, "Awesome! Vic has likened my words to the effluvium of his domesticated animals."
That's not what he said. He doesnt like shutting down constructive, carefully considered opinions. He feels obliged to do so by the objectionable ones.
.He didnt blame every participant in a locked thread for its locking - the blame is on those people who dont follow the rules. All he was doing was acknowledging that allowing those kinds of posts/threads to continue will encourage the poor behaviour of some of us who are thankfully very much in the minority on paizo's forums.
Now now that's really neither here nor there at this point. Though honestly as vast as this forum is, a perfect solution that satisfies everyone eludes me at the moment.
I dont know if you're speaking to me, but that was my point.
.The desirable level of moderation is not something that has a correct answer. It is inherently subjective and posting here is an implicit acceptance of whatever standards paizo chooses to enforce. (Luckily for us, that includes allowing us to express our displeasure when we disagree - it doesnt mean our opinions are somehow 'valid' though).
The baby (of carefully considered opinions) gets thrown out with the bath water (of thread locking and deletions).
Locking does not stop the poor behaviour, so how is locking going to prevent or stop the future poor behaviour of the few?
No Steve, the timing of the post submission was coincidental, not directed your way.
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This is the forum equivalent of a honey pot
Then again I guess a forum actually could be a honey pot
In any case it is definitely teaching me some things
:) good AND good FOR you!
Locking does not stop the poor behaviour, so how is locking going to prevent or stop the future poor behaviour of the few?
Sadly, it's not going to stop it. Vic didnt say it would - he said (and I think he's pretty obviously right) that the occasional locking reduces the incidence of such behaviour.
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The baby (of carefully considered opinions) gets thrown out with the bath water (of thread locking and deletions).
Not really. The carefully considered opinions are still there. You just have to start a new thread if you want to respond to them. That's not actually very hard - copy and paste the post you want to reply to and then start a new thread by quoting that as your starting point.
.Your ire at that added hassle should be directed at those who continue to flout the rules (those threads nearly always receive warning before they are locked) rather than towards those who enforce them.
A good point Steve.
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I'll reiterate what I said in another thread:
If you don't like the moderation around here, you are welcome to leave.
I can also suggest its improvement. Which is what I am doing FRIEND.
>:D
"Suggesting" and "complaining" aren't the same thing
Is complaining bad?
Is complaining about threads being locked because of a few posters, bad?
I especially like the ones shut down on page 2, yeah, that had a real chance to right its course.
If we keep the rules in mind, and keep the debate going, all will be well. Post can follow post, without it all being shut down over a few comments and a few ruffled feathers.
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Is complaining bad?
Is complaining about threads being locked because of a few posters, bad?
I especially like the ones shut down on page 2, yeah, that had a real chance to right its course.
If we keep the rules in mind, and keep the debate going, all will be well. Post can follow post, without it all being shut down over a few comments and a few ruffled feathers.
My point about starting your own venue for discussion stands.
I even have a sutiable name for it:
"Parlor of Overtly Intellectual Running in Circles, Beating Dead Equines and Using Big Words for Small Effect".
Really, can't wait :P
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This is the forum equivalent of a honey pot
Then again I guess a forum actually could be a honey pot
In any case it is definitely teaching me some things
From the fury of the Thread-people, good Lamontius, deliver us!
Is complaining bad?
Is complaining about threads being locked because of a few posters, bad?
I especially like the ones shut down on page 2, yeah, that had a real chance to right its course.
If we keep the rules in mind, and keep the debate going, all will be well. Post can follow post, without it all being shut down over a few comments and a few ruffled feathers.
Why should a thread get to right its course though? Take the powergamer thread you linked to, even the original poster was disappointed with how combative the first 50 posts were and his own contribution to that.
If the discussion was to continue it would probably be much more productive in a new thread with a less combative first post.
Edit: And there isn't anything inherently wrong with complaining. Like most things it's how somebody goes about complaining that is the issue, not having a complaint itself.
Some that are locked have already righted their course, and the trolls and the like have moved on or stopped caring.
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From the fury of the Thread-people, good Lamontius, deliver us!This is the forum equivalent of a honey pot
Then again I guess a forum actually could be a honey pot
In any case it is definitely teaching me some things
well mainly it is teaching me who I do not want to talk to when I really just want to talk about pathfinder and occasionally say something that is for luls
but other than that yes it is becoming a pretty good list of thread people
I would shake my head at my own hypocrisy if I was not already at peace with being a thread person, essentially the whole nietzsche-monster-fighting thing and all that about the abyss gazing back into you and such
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A shame moderator justice is on the side with the most flags.
I'm sure the moderators look at the thread and decide if it is salvageable, not which side has more flags.
The baby (of carefully considered opinions) gets thrown out with the bath water (of thread locking and deletions).
Locking does not stop the poor behaviour, so how is locking going to prevent or stop the future poor behaviour of the few?
I'm sure the more times we have to lock a thread because of person X, the more likely enough people get fed up with person X, which eventually leads to the (unfortunately too-rare) banning of person X.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Or, someone is losing an argument, or angry at what someone has said, or enraged by contrary opinions, or flag trolling. Totally off the top of my head, there are any number of reasons a person can flag, not all of them valid to close the thread and shut all the posters down.Actually, if only once side is complaining and flagging, then a moderator that locks a thread is taking the side of those that complain (and not those that aren't complaining).It takes multiple flags on a post to get a moderator's attention. If there are multiple flags on a post, odds are very good that somebody is indeed being a jerk.
So yes, I *absolutely* take the side of people who use the flagging system as it's intended.
And, as we said, moderators do use their judgement. The biggest place that judgement comes in is in determining whether something that has been flagged actually deserves to be flagged. If we wanted to just automatically hide any post that has been flagged, or had been flagged X number of times, we could easily do that, and it would very probably make life a lot easier for the moderators. But that's not the right answer. A brain needs to be involved—one that understands our community and our goals.
But none of that changes the fact that my experience has shown me that when a post has collected several flags, it's almost always because that poster is being a jerk.
I'm sure the more times we have to lock a thread because of person X, the more likely enough people get fed up with person X, which eventually leads to the (unfortunately too-rare) banning of person X.
Exactly! Thank you for acknowledging that.