Orc as a PC race


Advice

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hello PFRPG enthusiasts!

I would like your insight on how to handle a player who absolutely wants to play an orc as PC.

I am willing to give it a try, but I was mostly reluctant because he wants to play a "non-civilized" race that is usually killed on sight.

how do you GMs handle this aspect? Please bear in mind I am in my own created world, not Golarion, so idk how orcs are viewed in that world, I base mine on typical 2nd/3.5 edition stereotype of chaotic-evil brutes who loot and sack their way through life.

thanks!

RW


That's pretty much the Golarion version, too.


Guess depends on the class?

Maybe he was originally part of a reputable mercenary/bounty hunting organization and people give him some leeway?

Introduce him by helping assist other party members from an ambush and they can vouch for him in the future.

Start party off in a "Mos Eisley" like city where some savage races and humanoids are barely living in peace, barely tolerating the others' presense (like som Eberron cities).

Dark Archive

I guess you could have a rather rare tradition of "tamed" orcs in the world... Maybe there's a group of paladins who serve as a bulwark next to an orc nation who have developed a sort of rehabilitation program for the uncivilized races that live there. How successful it is is questionable, and I'm sure many higher-ups might regard their attempts as a waste of time and money, but every now and then a mostly civil orc, goblin, or ogre will make his way into the world from their fortress. Your PC could play one of those orcs. Of course he'll still face a lot of prejudice (which is actually way fun for a PC), but in a world where most people know that orcs *do* occasionally act civilized he won't have to deal with being murdered on sight.

Since you're running a homebrew campaign you have the luxury of controlling every aspect of your world, so coming up with a case for why he is able to play an orc in a world where they are feared and reviled is really just a matter of coming up with a cool idea - something which people on the advice board are glad to help with!


Are half-orcs viewed the same way as orcs are viewed in your world? And if so, do you permit half-orc PCs? If so, just handle the orc the same way.

Why does the player want to play someone who might be killed on sight? Maybe that player would settle for his character being treated with prejudice. You know. Inns don't permit him to enter and he has to sleep outside (or at best in the horse stable), vendors charge him twice the price that they do other customers, people view him suspiciously and refuse to talk to him, that sort of thing.

The Exchange

As long as you are fine with it, then I say go for it. A cloak and a hood can work wonders. There are plenty of items that can disguise or change your appearance as well.

Honestly, I feel that almost ANY race could theoretically be a PC as long as the Gm was cool with it and they didn't monopolize the group's time.

Paladins and clerics are always trying to "redeem" the other races. Merc bands can always use some extra muscle. There are a million reasons why someone from a traditionally bad race could be a PC. Look at Drizzt, kaz the minotaur, or any number of other non-core characters from fantasy novels.


I always look at a few main things if one of my players wants to play a non standard race.

First, does it increase the power level of the PC? If so I make sure to use the appropriate level adjustment so that they are on par with the other PCs. IIRC, Orcs don't have a level adjustment, so this shouldn't be an issue.

Second (and more important IMO), is why they player wants to play that race. A player that wants to play a stereotypical CE, looting, pillaging, brutish type Orc is completely different than the player that wants to play an Orc that breaks that stereotype. Maybe they want to play a CG Orc Wizard that has to constantly prove that they are more than just their race (think Drizzt from Forgotten Realms).

Once you know why they want to play an Orc and what type of character they want their Orc to be you can decide if that character will fit your game.

Pathfinder is a group activity and is supposed to be fun. As long as the charater fits my game and doesn't detract from the fun, then I would allow it.


Yes, I do allow half-orcs in my campaign. They do suffer some prejudice, but since they are not full-fledged orcs, they are allowed in multi-cultural cities. They are part-human and therefore tolerated.

full-fledged orcs are greener, bulkier and taller than their half-bred counterparts and as such would tend to stand out.

I was wondering what limitations, if any, you as GMs would impose.

thanks!


Why does the player want to play an orc? What does he want out of it that can't be handled as a particularly orcish looking half-orc raised in an orc culture?

I've played in several campaigns where we just reskinned half-orcs to be orcs.


I'd probably boost the half-orc traits slightly, force the bonus stat into +2 Str with -2 wis and Cha, and see how long he lives. I think he probably likes the idea of everyone hate him and facing an uphill battle.

If he abuses it, he can always meet an unfortunate demise (but luckily get reincarnated into another race.)

Silver Crusade

You could use this as an opportunity to grow the setting by introducing an alternate not-always-evil orc culture beyond what the players have known so far. This neatly avoids forcing anyone wanting to play an orc being forced into the Drizzt "lone rebel against their own kind" role.

I'd avoid forcing a set-in-stone "kill on sight" policy; it doesn't have to be easy for such a character, but it should be reasonably possible. I'd also keep in mind how the character behaves and what he does. The world should react to that, for better or worse. If he's out there being the big damn hero, that should eventually win over some hearts and minds. If he plays right into their prejudices, he's probably digging his own grave.

Personally, I use different stat modifiers for my orcs for a few reasons, some of which might be useful for you and/or your player:

+2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 INT

First, it's more balanced, bringing them in line with the core races. It also lends itself to a wider range of characters, cultures, and classes.

It also helps to make orcs more palatable to GMs that would otherwise worry that the race is only being chosen as a "hack'n'slash/min-max" character on account of boosting STR so high while dumping all of the mental scores, leading some to assume that such a character isn't being made for roleplay, fairly or unfairly. The alternate stat array evens that out a lot, and on the player side of things it tends to produce more thoughtful orcs even if it doesn't encourage orc rocket surgeons.

One thing that bears noting is that you can have a non-evil orc culture that still feels absolutely orcish. There's plenty of values dissonance that can be achieved between such a culture and their neighbors without making their morality monstrous, differences that can still be an interesting source of conflict or unease between the races.

What are the character's goals? Is he just a bloodthirsty warrior searching for the next fight? Is he an outcast looking for a purpose in life? Is he someone that would seek acceptance from other races, or would he focus on saving his own race and turning them around even if it meant having to conquer them? Was he raised among his own people or by another race, and if the latter, how was he treated?


If a Half Orc suffers some prejudice, then a full Orc would probably suffer lots of prejudice.

I would make it difficult or impossible to enter certain places, such as palaces or the "upper class" part of town. There might be places where the townsfolk are so against Orcs that they riot and drive the PCs out of town. Shopowners might say that the Orc's money is no good at their store and won't do business with them. Inkeepers might charge an additional "security deposit" and still give the Orc the worst room available and only serve them the poorest meals.

Game mechanics wise, this would mean unfriendly or hostile attitude for most NPCs and penalties to social based Skill checks (diplomacy, gather info, bluff, etc. although they might get bonuses to intimidate).

Also, see here.

Things would be rough for them in the beggining, but I would make it entirely possible to prove themselves through their actions.


If your player is dead-set on playing a full-blooded orc, for the simple sake of balance I'd suggest these stat bonuses: +2 STR, –2 INT, –2 WIS, –2 CHA. Within sensible limitations, I can think of some pretty cool options for an orc PC.

As a GM, I'd also require a very specific character concept, as others have suggested. If the player just wants to play a lootin', plunderin', stereotypical orc, and you have more of a heroic campaign in mind, I wouldn't change the whole tenure of the campaign to accommodate one player's request. On the flip side, if you're running a more morally ambiguous campaign, even though the orc PC still should have some depth, there's probably more room for savagery. In fact, I could see an orc PC filling a niche role that could be very entertaining for you and your group.

One last thing, and this is just what I'd do personally as a GM. If you're going to have your orc PC and its party interact in "civilized" cities, towns, or general societies, I'd keep the general rule of thumb that dwarves, humans, etc. consider orcs monsters to be killed. To counteract this, I'd also require the orc to take a certain number of skill ranks in disguise and bluff (an orc rogue would be cool), and perhaps also in diplomacy, depending on the character concept. Even with these skills, it's going to be tough going for an orc. A LOT of NPCs are going to take swings (or worse) at an orc, so make it fun and dangerous for the orc to interact in town, and give the party incentives to help the orc hide his identity. Maybe the orc actually ends up getting captured and your other players have to facilitate the orc's escape. Maybe the party has to make a decision to leave the orc outside the city gates so they can accomplish a key part of their mission (sucks for the orc player, so you should let him or her know this might happen in advance).

In short, I don't think you should let a player play an orc exactly as they appear in most bestiaries, but neither should it not be an option. With some creativity on the part of you and your character, it could be a really fun time.


Redwidow, what class does he want to play?


An easy way to play an Orc is to use Reincarnate. You could say it happened in your youth after hunting accident and druid reincarnated you as Orc. You'd be physically all Orc and locals would know you not as Orc but as the child they knew who grew up as Orc as second chance at life. This makes things easier.


he was originally looking for a type of shaman (which is the reason for that post I wrote a few days ago).

now i think he was looking at playing a tank.

I was thinking of limiting his STR to 20, since all "normal" PCs can't start qith a stat above 20.

I also plan on having him be ostracized wherever he goes in civilized areas, but here is my idea: he is forced to have an escort at all times, such as in an elven city. he can only go about his business with a guard present, and HE has to pay for it... That should give interesting RP opportunities I think!


Redwidow wrote:

he was originally looking for a type of shaman (which is the reason for that post I wrote a few days ago).

now i think he was looking at playing a tank.

I was thinking of limiting his STR to 20, since all "normal" PCs can't start qith a stat above 20.

I also plan on having him be ostracized wherever he goes in civilized areas, but here is my idea: he is forced to have an escort at all times, such as in an elven city. he can only go about his business with a guard present, and HE has to pay for it... That should give interesting RP opportunities I think!

1. I wouldn't limit his build.. if he wants to start even stronger, let him.

2. Make him take the adopted trait, have him raised by a Paladin who 'acquired' him when adventuring.

3. I like the idea of the 'escort', it's very cute.

-James


+4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma
Light sensitivity
darkvision and ferocity

I find the -2 to all mental attributes pretty brutal.

Str 22 to start with is only a +1 to hit and damage.

let me guess, thinking of taking a barbarian? (good combo)

I find the -1 skill point, -1 to will saves (on a character that just screams "mind control me!") pretty painful.

But then, I also like skilled characters who don't turn into an enemy sock puppet.

I find this a good toss up with the half orc that has +1 to any attribute, darkvision, ferocity 1/day and NO mental penalties.

Mind you, if he wants to be The Hulk, it's the right race for it.


It might be worth taking a look at the Redbrick Earthdawn - Pathfinder players guide as they have Orcs as a playable race in their setting which may be balanced closer to a pathfinder PC than using monster stats.

Shadow Lodge

Use Alter Self to make your one-armed orc look like a two-armed "humie".


The ARG was made for this kind of problem:

Change Paragon +4 Str, –2 Int, –2 Wis, –2 Cha to Specialized +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int

Both have a Cost of 1 so no change and no problem.

Light sensitivity

Lose it.

The total cost for the Orc increases from 8 to 9.

The options for play and balance have increase tremendously.


scary harpy wrote:

The ARG was made for this kind of problem:

Change Paragon +4 Str, –2 Int, –2 Wis, –2 Cha to Specialized +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int

Both have a Cost of 1 so no change and no problem.

Light sensitivity

Lose it.

The total cost for the Orc increases from 8 to 9.

The options for play and balance have increase tremendously.

Astute observers will realize that nothing actually stopped them from doing this before.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Redwidow wrote:
how do you GMs handle this aspect?

THESE are my orcs.

Shadow Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Redwidow wrote:
how do you GMs handle this aspect?
THESE are my orcs.

NICE HAT!


He might also be a servant/slave of another PC.

Back when slavery was all the rage (whether via chains or by a more genteel version) it was common to give them a collar and a nametag, which should keep him out of trouble.

Of course that works well if the player works well with the 'owning' player have a good relationship. Maybe they aren't really master/servant but it is their cover, who knows.


Within standard Golarion, the Orcish nation of Belkzen should be fine, as well as some of the more dubious parts of Varisia, and given that trade caravans pass from the Crown of the World thru the Hold of Belkzen, it seems plausible to head up that direction without problem as well. Other adjacent areas will react with different degrees of outright hostily to Orcs, although 1 Orc passing peacefully in company of other Orcs is a rather different thing than a band of armed Orcs. Molthune might be OK if you work with the state.

The further afield you go, people are going to know less and less about actual Orcs... They will likely never have seen a full Orc, perhaps only some half-Orcs, so they may not even recognize you as a 'full Orc' per se... Your appearance will still be 'wierd and monstrous' but that goes for many other Humanoid races. In countries that have not been threatened by Orcish war-bands, the degree of fear/hatred is going to be alot less. SE Avistan (Andoran, Taldor, Galt) seem likely to have less animosity compared to the rest of Avistan, and Garund doesn't seem to have any history of Orcish warbands, or any current population of Orcs besides some Half-Orcs scattered here and there, so I'd say that within that continent things should be fine. (Gnolls exist in Katapesh, and their real aggressions would present much more to worry about vs. stories associated with some foreign species) Orcs aren't present in Tian Xia AFAIK, so you'd just be a wierdo foreigner. Your presence may appear monstrous to many, but I don't see why it's not 'do-able'.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
THESE are my orcs.

I always figured the Jaegerkin were the Foglio's take on Orcs. Glad to see I'm not the only one.

Of course, at that point you have to figure they wind up being a hell of a lot more than a standard race...
Jaegerkin should scare Aboleths...


Keep an eye on his con score, as a full orc he "can" fight until he dies as his ferocity only costs him 1 hp/round after he is at negatives that is mostly ofsetted by the fact that as he is still fighting monsters will continue to hit him till he dies.

Grand Lodge

ARG made Orc witches awesome.

I play an Orc Ranger in campaign right now. I still do not outshine the dwarf wizard in the battlefield. I fight on it, but he controls it.

Orc is not a problem, unless you make it one.

Shadow Lodge

orc should be out cast in a human society. anyone who openly travels with an orc should also be trated like a pariah.

the +4 to strength isnt a big deal. so dont think he can imbalance your game by having a 22 strength.

Grand Lodge

The Orc has a total -2 to stats. He sub-par to Half-orc in this.

It is not a balance issue.


Mr. Nepherti and his friends played in an all orc campaign (well, mostly, there was a Wizard, the Weird Boy). Their names were Skinny, Fatty, and Drunky. They played them as mercenaries with the sense of humor of 11 year old boys (ie lots of fart jokes). They played them with +4 STR, -2 INT, -2 CHA. The WIS penalty was taken away due to the argument that Orcs are skilled warriors and survivors. Then again, these guys are really into Warhammer Orcs.

Contrary to popular belief, that game had more Role Play in it than any other game he's been in. Fatty kept a notebook full of observations written in crayon. They rode around on dire boars, riding up beside anyone else on the road and challenging them to races. When not in combat, they argued over some of the stupidest stuff completely in character, talking in a gruff broken English. They would randomly get into shouting matches at the table, and the GM would roll perceptions on the enemies to see if they heard the bumbling orc trio.

This is how they divided loot. They took a fortress, and found a few magic items. One was a Scimitar and the other was an Axe. Naturally, orcs would go after the axe first. It started with a shouting match, then they ended up grappling and pinning each other until Fatty won the axe.

In the notebook was this:
*stick figure of Fatty* Me with Axe
*stick figure of Drunky* Drunky with Choppa. Sad Drunky.

Grand Lodge

40k Orcs are also genderless, plant-related psychics.

Our Orcs are different.


Nepherti wrote:
<description of how an all-orc campaign went>

I am so jealous. That's the most fun-sounding campaign I've heard about in over a year.

Grand Lodge

By the way, if I ever find myself in a Warhammer-esque game, I would go full Slaanesh Daemonette.
They are both traps and reverse traps at the same time.
Figure that out.

"There is no man, woman, child, or beast, living or dead, safe from the perversions of Slaanesh."


1 person marked this as a favorite.

...and, on that matter, Half-Orcs gain a bonus on intimidate... the TRUE infamous horrible rapist pillaging massmurdering Orcs do not (and have a charisma penalty on top of that)... apparently, orcs are not easy to identify as such!

Grand Lodge

Actually, the infamous horrible rapist are Ogres.
They are Deliverance hillbillies of giant proportion.

Orcs are more just pissed of about the genocide thing by the dwarves, and the age of darkness ending.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

40k Orcs are also genderless, plant-related psychics.

Our Orcs are different.

Well, that is true, but these were Pathfinder Orcs inspired by the stories of 40K Orcs. There were female Orcs in the world, and they weren't psychics. If one of them had been a caster (the Wizard was human), the Fluff would have been played like "red makes things go fasta" but still mechanically run as per Pathfinder Magic rules.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Redwidow wrote:
how do you GMs handle this aspect?
THESE are my orcs.

I wish I'd thought of this.


Aaron Bitman wrote:
Nepherti wrote:
<description of how an all-orc campaign went>
I am so jealous. That's the most fun-sounding campaign I've heard about in over a year.

I'll tell him you said that.

Sometimes, the RP for that game got so in depth that the GM had to shoot the guys with a NERF gun from across the table because they wouldn't shut up long enough to hear the GM say they were being attacked.


In the game I am in , I am playing a Barbarian who was the son of a local Noble and the Orcs where being stirred up by an evil wizard from afar,
After storming the Orc Hill Fort the first thing I did was inform the surviving Orcs , which included all the women and children and the Orc peasants I was now their liege lord and they where ALL under my protection. After all Orc peasants can pay taxes and provide labor as well as human peasants and Orcs tend to cower to anyone who bigger and badder then they are and by taking their fort I proved I was the biggest and baddest one around. I now even have an Orc follower now.
And is my method more evil then the Elf Paladin who would put everyone to the sword, including the women and Children?

Shadow Lodge

Orthos wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Redwidow wrote:
how do you GMs handle this aspect?
THESE are my orcs.
I wish I'd thought of this.

I won't tell anyone if you don't. :)


Since Girl Genius was mentioned, I figure I should mention that the Rossi Publishing Games is working on a Spark class for their Terah setting, based off the comic.


Nepherti wrote:
Sometimes, the RP for that game got so in depth that the GM had to shoot the guys with a NERF gun from across the table because they wouldn't shut up long enough to hear the GM say they were being attacked.

LOL

Getting too busy arguing to notice that they're getting attacked is REALLY playing orcs in character!


Thanks for all the responses peeps, got some real good insight!

as it turns out he won't be able to make the games so no "should I allow monstrous PCs" debate for now!

Now I am missing 2-3 players for said game... :(


I'm looking for an adventure for my players to play as Orcs. Can someon help me out please.


An all Orc Kingmaker party might be interesting.

"We need you to clear out these bandits."

"IT WOULD BE OUR PLEASURE!"

Bandits: "OH MY GOD WHY!?!?!"


A. Hamon wrote:

If your player is dead-set on playing a full-blooded orc, for the simple sake of balance I'd suggest these stat bonuses: +2 STR, –2 INT, –2 WIS, –2 CHA. Within sensible limitations, I can think of some pretty cool options for an orc PC.

Wow, those stats and the wish for sensible limitations somehow doesn't mix. Giving any race +2 and -6 on stats is a lot but not sensible.


Umbranus wrote:
A. Hamon wrote:

If your player is dead-set on playing a full-blooded orc, for the simple sake of balance I'd suggest these stat bonuses: +2 STR, –2 INT, –2 WIS, –2 CHA. Within sensible limitations, I can think of some pretty cool options for an orc PC.

Wow, those stats and the wish for sensible limitations somehow doesn't mix. Giving any race +2 and -6 on stats is a lot but not sensible.

Kobolds are hit around that hard by their initial stats, and people KNOW they are weaker than most PC races.


Some players and GMs tend to overreact to passages that say a certain race is shunned or viewed with distrust in most civilized parts. When you have a world where dozens of diverse sentient species coexist, it would take a particularly backwater village to attack anything short of a creature born of evil (such as a daemon or its chaotic and lawful relatives) on sight.
Yes NPCs should view an orc pc with tons of misrust and probably start with an unfriendly attitude, but in general a single orc should be able to enter a regular city without being attacked by the first guy who happens to have a weapon in reach.

Additionally orcs are valuable hired muscle and mercenaries and I remember reading it somewhere that they are often viewed as such in golarion too. This is in my opinion a good explanation why this orc can move on human lands.

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