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So the general idea I've seen floating around the boards over the past few years is that melee characters that rely on Dexterity and the Weapon Finesse feat are still vastly inferior to Strength-based warriors, usually using two-handed weapons to max out their theorycrafted DPR. On the other hand, finesse combat is a popular fantasy archetype and I see lots of people who like to play characters who fight with brains and/or grace rather than brawn.
Yet with all of the Treantmonk-style guides out there and the popularity of fencers, duelists, ninjas, assassins, and other speedy/tricky archetypes of the fantasy genre, I haven't seen any that are dedicated to making finesse builds usable, either within the bounds of accepted theorycraft (damage > defense, combat healing is not useful, etc) or by challenging the established way of doing things.
TL;DR, finesse is really popular but there are no guides. Is anybody interested in collaborating on a guide to all of the ways to optimize finesse builds and listing the advantages that finesse styles have over straight strength builds?
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Most of my Finesse biulds focus on the crit or range bonus of the weapons.
I have build a human welding an Elven curved Blade two handed with a natural crit of 18-20, keen 15-20, then add in a few magical buffs like flaming or frost (or both) or even flame burst and or frost burst for the extra crit damage.
The trait adopted is one of favorites. Thus the said human was adopted by elves and gained the elven weapons class feature.
The One idea I can give is why not let a few of the Ranged feats apply to Dex bast attacks like focus shot (using Int instead of Str for the damage mod)
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If you're looking to do more damage with Finesse, you need to look at what it is that's causing you to do less damage in the first place:
First, STR mod. Presumably, if you're using Weapon Finesse, you have a low STR. So your attacks are dealing +0 or +1 damage. Meanwhile, the guy with 18 STR and a two-handed weapon is dealing +6 damage (and that will go up with stat boosts later on). So that's your first barrier.
Second, the two-handers are using Power Attack, which gives them +3 damage to start, and scales with BAB. So that's your second barrier.
So the 2HPA guy with 18 STR is dealing +12 damage by 4th level, while the Finesse guy's +1 hasn't changed since 1st level.
Therefore, if you want to get your Finesse damage up, you need to do one of two things: achieve the same damage bonuses the 2HPA guy is, or achieve some other damage bonus that he doesn't get.
The latter is the value of the rogue or ninja: sneak attack damage doesn't care about your STR, so by 9th level you're dealing +5d6 (17.5 average) damage, compared to Power Attack's +9 damage. You must weigh this, however, against the fact that Sneak Attack is conditional while Power Attack is not.
The former (achieving the same bonuses) can be somewhat replaced by the Agile weapon enchantment, allowing a Finesse weapon to add DEX bonus to damage (same with the Dervish Dance feat). Unfortunately, you can't gain the +50% boost for two-handed fighting.
Another idea that I'm kind of toying with is this: use Power Attack along with Weapon Finesse. The Elven Curve Blade and the Spiked Chain can both be used with Weapon Finesse, but are two-handed weapons and therefore give you the 3:1 damage boost from Power Attack. You'll need 13 STR, but that's not a bad idea for the sake of carrying capacity anyway. I think this should be explored further.
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Another idea that I'm kind of toying with is this: use Power Attack along with Weapon Finesse. The Elven Curve Blade and the Spiked Chain can both be used with Weapon Finesse, but are two-handed weapons and therefore give you the 3:1 damage boost from Power Attack. You'll need 13 STR, but that's not a bad idea for the sake of carrying capacity anyway. I think this should be explored further.
This is a great Idea. power attack leads to cleave combined with combat reflexes and the already dex this build could charge the enemy get them selves surrounded and hit every one trying to surrounding them with AoO's that Crit extra easy and do just as much damage as a stand up fighter in full plate and no dex. just a little keen edge and frost bursting.
ONE CAN NEVER DUMP DEX
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@ Thorin2011 - I think you're using that trait incorrectly. The "Race Traits" referred to in the "Adopted" Trait are Traits with the "Race" tag, not racial abilities listed in the race entry of the CRB. I had a player try to convince me that he could get Darkvision "because it's a racial trait."
from the PRD:
"Adopted: You were adopted and raised by someone not of your actual race, and raised in a society not your own. As a result, you picked up a race trait from your adoptive parents and society, and may immediately select a race trait from your adoptive parents' race."
"Race traits are tied to specific races or ethnicities. In order to select a race trait, your character must be of the specified race or ethnicity."
I may be wrong, and may be reading things a bit too tightly, but taking a single trait and getting a field of Feat-level effects seems vastly outside of RAI.
For the sake of argument, why the comparison between finesse fighting damage and two-handed damage? Or perhaps it is better to ask, what should target be?
that might be 90% of the time I do not use traits.
Which brings me to the next question is there a way to have a human use the Elven curved blade short of the exotic weapons feat. If not then one feat for that weapon is not so bad (I love that weapon).
Agile weapon enchantment and Piranha strike feat make up for it easily.. Also its unbelivable to presume a gm would house rule double slice to work with dex damage as well.. theres also the dervise dance feat with scimitars, which if ur a 2wf fighter archetype duel wielding scimitars could make a great crit build on this..
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The weapon's great; I've got a finesse barbarian built using it. I don't think there's any means short of picking up Exotic Weapon Prof for a human to get it.
Oh, wait. The Kensai Magus archetype grants proficiency in any one martial or exotic weapon of the player's choice at level 1. There may be other archetypes that do something similar.
The "Quick Learner" trait is an Equipment trait from Adventurer's Armory that reduces nonproficiency penalty by 2 after your first attack in a combat. Not full functionality, but better than a sharp stick in the eye.
@the OP - Sorry for the threadjack. I, too despair at the lack of finesse support. My best attempt at making a viable finesse combat character is my aforementioned finesse barbarian; Urban Barbarian archetype, Elf, uses curve blade. Not optimized, but very flavorful.
Most of my Finesse biulds focus on the crit or range bonus of the weapons.
I have build a human welding an Elven curved Blade two handed with a natural crit of 18-20, keen 15-20, then add in a few magical buffs like flaming or frost (or both) or even flame burst and or frost burst for the extra crit damage.
The trait adopted is one of favorites. Thus the said human was adopted by elves and gained the elven weapons class feature.
The One idea I can give is why not let a few of the Ranged feats apply to Dex bast attacks like focus shot (using Int instead of Str for the damage mod)
Note: Adopted gives you a racial TRAIT, not a racial class feature.
So if they were adopted by Elves that would be 'Warrior of Old' or 'Forlorn' if you are just using the traits from the APG.|
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In PF Power Attack *can* be used with light weapons. The 13 Str is the only requirement that is not really in line with finesse builds, and I personally don't consider it to be terrible to give a finesse character a 13 Str. What I'm against is Putting your 16 in Str and then buying Str boosting items so that your duelist can be good at using a rapier. I would like to be able to optimize a 13 Str, 20 Dex character.
On a slight change I gave a halfing a 13 str one even tho that character was a gunslinger the I needed at least that much str to carry the needed supplies and he still had a ponny nearly all the time with him.
so yes a 13 Str is not a bad thing.
So the general idea I've seen floating around the boards over the past few years is that melee characters that rely on Dexterity and the Weapon Finesse feat are still vastly inferior to Strength-based warriors, usually using two-handed weapons to max out their theorycrafted DPR... Is anybody interested in collaborating on a guide to all of the ways to optimize finesse builds and listing the advantages that finesse styles have over straight strength builds?
Agile weapon enchantment and Piranha strike feat make up for it easily...
If you like the soulknife from Dreamscarred's Psionics Unleashed, there is the Nimble Blade finesse archetype in Hidden Intentions (and in the full Psionics Expanded compilation) that swaps out to grant Weapon Finesse, Mind Blade Finesse blade skill, Piranha Strike, the Agile weapon property, and Adaptive Form (at various levels). The soulknife can form his/her mindblade as dual light weapons (1d6 dmg, "shortswords"), one-hander (1d8 dmg, "longsword"), or two-hander (2d6 dmg, "greatsword") forms.
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In PF Power Attack *can* be used with light weapons. The 13 Str is the only requirement that is not really in line with finesse builds, and I personally don't consider it to be terrible to give a finesse character a 13 Str. What I'm against is Putting your 16 in Str and then buying Str boosting items so that your duelist can be good at using a rapier. I would like to be able to optimize a 13 Str, 20 Dex character.I do not nkow if somebody mentioned it already but you can use
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat
Piranha Strike (Combat)
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
I am aware of that feat. It does help those with below 13 Str stay effective, but the theorycraft crowd still asserts that THFing with 1.5x Str bonus is still vastly superior to fighting with a 10 or less Str.
I personally think that fighting with any sort of Str pentalty, even if using Piranha Strike, is just asking for trouble, so Piranha strike is really best for the 10-12 Str crowd.
Finesse isn't completely dead in the water. Having high Dex means high init, being able to have a good AC and good move speed at the same time, a better reflex save, and boosts a lot of useful skills. However, the accepted theorycraft seems to indicate that those advantages are not worth the trade off of having about half of the DPR of a Falchion-wielding Fighter or Barbarian.
Honestly, the best I have found so far is the Dervish Magus build, where weapon damage is of minimal importance as compared to crit range and spellcasting anyhow.
I'm willing to consider the idea that a TWF Rogue with Two-Weapon Feint might catch up eventually, but it's hard to DPR Calc Feint builds, especially when the theorycrafters will yell "TRAP!" before I can finish saying "Improved Feint"
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Another idea that I'm kind of toying with is this: use Power Attack along with Weapon Finesse. The Elven Curve Blade and the Spiked Chain can both be used with Weapon Finesse, but are two-handed weapons and therefore give you the 3:1 damage boost from Power Attack. You'll need 13 STR, but that's not a bad idea for the sake of carrying capacity anyway. I think this should be explored further.
In this case, wouldn't you want to use a Rapier instead of an Elven Curve Blade or Spiked chain? It's a one-handed weapon, which allows you to use it in one hand or both hands (for +3 damage rolls per -1 attack penalty). This is useful for those times where you may be grappled and can't use a 2-handed weapon. It's a martial weapon, which means you don't have to spend an additional feat to use it, and if you're going straight rogue, you're already proficient with it.
Unfortunately a ninja would have to eat a feat for any of these choices if you're going this route, that or take a level in fighter (which may be the best choice in any case).
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Another idea that I'm kind of toying with is this: use Power Attack along with Weapon Finesse. The Elven Curve Blade and the Spiked Chain can both be used with Weapon Finesse, but are two-handed weapons and therefore give you the 3:1 damage boost from Power Attack. You'll need 13 STR, but that's not a bad idea for the sake of carrying capacity anyway. I think this should be explored further.In this case, wouldn't you want to use a Rapier instead of an Elven Curve Blade or Spiked chain? It's a one-handed weapon, which allows you to use it in one hand or both hands (for +3 damage rolls per -1 attack penalty). This is useful for those times where you may be grappled and can't use a 2-handed weapon. It's a martial weapon, which means you don't have to spend an additional feat to use it, and if you're going straight rogue, you're already proficient with it.
Unfortunately a ninja would have to eat a feat for any of these choices if you're going this route, that or take a level in fighter (which may be the best choice in any case).
The rapier's description in the CRB prohibits using it two-handed for STR bonus purposes, so you're likely to cause yourself grief with your GM if you try to two-hand it for better Power Attack damage. (Also your character would look like a complete idiot.)
As for martial versus exotic: if you're allowed the APG, half-elves can get EWP for free instead of Skill Focus, and half-orcs can trade their usual weapon familiarities for Chain Fighter, making them proficient with flails and treating spiked chains as martial weapons. No feat required. Even in just the Core rules, elves get to treat the ECB as martial, and whaddya know? They even get a racial boost to DEX! ;D
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Another idea that I'm kind of toying with is this: use Power Attack along with Weapon Finesse. The Elven Curve Blade and the Spiked Chain can both be used with Weapon Finesse, but are two-handed weapons and therefore give you the 3:1 damage boost from Power Attack. You'll need 13 STR, but that's not a bad idea for the sake of carrying capacity anyway. I think this should be explored further.In this case, wouldn't you want to use a Rapier instead of an Elven Curve Blade or Spiked chain? It's a one-handed weapon, which allows you to use it in one hand or both hands (for +3 damage rolls per -1 attack penalty). This is useful for those times where you may be grappled and can't use a 2-handed weapon. It's a martial weapon, which means you don't have to spend an additional feat to use it, and if you're going straight rogue, you're already proficient with it.
Unfortunately a ninja would have to eat a feat for any of these choices if you're going this route, that or take a level in fighter (which may be the best choice in any case).
The rapier's description in the CRB prohibits using it two-handed for STR bonus purposes, so you're likely to cause yourself grief with your GM if you try to two-hand it for better Power Attack damage. (Also your character would look like a complete idiot.)
As for martial versus exotic: if you're allowed the APG, half-elves can get EWP for free instead of Skill Focus, and half-orcs can trade their usual weapon familiarities for Chain Fighter, making them proficient with flails and treating spiked chains as martial weapons. No feat required. Even in just the Core rules, elves get to treat the ECB as martial, and whaddya know? They even get a racial boost to DEX! ;D
I've been giving some thought to going the two-handed finesse route using Power Attack and an Aldori sword or a Curve Blade. I'm kind of holding out for the Aldori prestige class in Paths of Prestige in the hopes that it makes Aldori duelists insanely good.
I tried running an Aldori Finesse THF Fighter character through the DPR calc and the character is still lagging pretty seriously behind, say, the Falchion Barb, though when you are THFing, the increased Init and AC of a finesse character is much more of a deciding factor than it is for a TWFer or a Sword and Boarder.
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The rapier's description in the CRB prohibits using it two-handed for STR bonus purposes, so you're likely to cause yourself grief with your GM if you try to two-hand it for better Power Attack damage. (Also your character would look like a complete idiot.)As for martial versus exotic: if you're allowed the APG, half-elves can get EWP for free instead of Skill Focus, and half-orcs can trade their usual weapon familiarities for Chain Fighter, making them proficient with flails and treating spiked chains as martial weapons. No feat required. Even in just the Core rules, elves get to treat the ECB as martial, and whaddya know? They even get a racial boost to DEX! ;D
Silly-looking, perhaps, but my rules-fu on this remains without flaw.
Of course, that's in retrospect, as I didn't know about that bit on a rapier's inability to take advantage of 1.5 STR mods for using it two-handed. Makes you wonder why they didn't just make it a light weapon. Is 1d6 over 1d4 (Kukri) really that great?
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Cross-posted from another thread:
I'm thinking Lore Warden with TWF, using one hand for maneuvers and the other for attacking. When I have improved trip or disarm, winning Init matters WAY more than a few more points of DPR. Assuming Agile Maneuvers, by 3rd level, I think I could end up with a pretty mean Trip modifier, and Trip/Disarm would make me a good team player, considering that a successful trip or disarm means everyone gets an AoO on the recovery.
...and then there's Improved Trip and Disarm, which makes the whole thing even more fun.
While Finessing maneuvers still has the feat tax of Agile Maneuvers, once you take that feat, you are pretty much 100% equal to a Str maneuver character, making maneuver builds an attractive option, especially with the Light armor restriction on the Lore Warden leading to high Dex being a requirement for survival.
I've tried an Aldori build with a Free Hand Fighter Base, 1 Monk level then a move to Duelist. Currently clvl. 11 or FHF6/M1/D4.
This is not horrible, now my base STR is 14, my base DEX is 18, my INT is 14. I've got a 3 stat belt at +4. (These are non point buy figures.)
So my STR is now an 18 and my DEX is 22. My main weapon is an Agile, Keen +1 Aldori Dueling Sword. I also have 5 daggers for ranged backup.
With the Insightful Strike feature of the Duelist, Singleton, Weapon Spec., and the various bonuses I'm usually at +14 damage I think. That's nowhere near the falchion barby, but my output is solid and I rarely miss. It's that rarely missing that makes a big difference. I normally save my weak iterative for the Parry feature and it's amazing how often that works out in my favor.
Weapon Finesse suffers from 3 failings I think.
1) Point Buy makes Power Attack builds much easier to work out, and that's where the supposed efficiency comes from. Couple that with heavy armor and the generally low cost of high end magic armor with the cost efficiency of 2 handed weapons and you get a deffinate edge.
2) No feat support.
PA opens up a ton of useful feats; cleave(great), several Imp. Maneuvers, etc. More importantly these feats are only lightly restricted equipment wise. The list grows with every rulebook. Weapon Finesse gets much less love. What it does get is very narrow, both Aldori Dueling Mastery and Dervish Dance are single weapon specific, and Piranna Strike, while useful, can't be applied to Rapiers, Whips, the ADS, Spiked Chains, or the
Curve Blade. This may be a specific design decision but why this is true is odd to me.
3) Finesse has downsides mechanically but advantages fluffwise. Power Attack is just the opposite. (You can't very well take a Greatsword into the King's Grand Ball, but a Rapier is part of a fashionable ensemble.). While finesse builds excell in certain environments those environments are never considered during Optimization Theorycrafting discussions. That is one of the problems I see frequently on boards all over, theorycrafting is all well and good but seldom rooted in actual game play.
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I've tried an Aldori build with a Free Hand Fighter Base, 1 Monk level then a move to Duelist. Currently clvl. 11 or FHF6/M1/D4.
This is not horrible, now my base STR is 14, my base DEX is 18, my INT is 14. I've got a 3 stat belt at +4. (These are non point buy figures.)
So my STR is now an 18 and my DEX is 22. My main weapon is an Agile, Keen +1 Aldori Dueling Sword. I also have 5 daggers for ranged backup.With the Insightful Strike feature of the Duelist, Singleton, Weapon Spec., and the various bonuses I'm usually at +14 damage I think. That's nowhere near the falchion barby, but my output is solid and I rarely miss. It's that rarely missing that makes a big difference. I normally save my weak iterative for the Parry feature and it's amazing how often that works out in my favor.
Weapon Finesse suffers from 3 failings I think.
1) Point Buy makes Power Attack builds much easier to work out, and that's where the supposed efficiency comes from. Couple that with heavy armor and the generally low cost of high end magic armor with the cost efficiency of 2 handed weapons and you get a deffinate edge.2) No feat support.
PA opens up a ton of useful feats; cleave(great), several Imp. Maneuvers, etc. More importantly these feats are only lightly restricted equipment wise. The list grows with every rulebook. Weapon Finesse gets much less love. What it does get is very narrow, both Aldori Dueling Mastery and Dervish Dance are single weapon specific, and Piranna Strike, while useful, can't be applied to Rapiers, Whips, the ADS, Spiked Chains, or the
Curve Blade. This may be a specific design decision but why this is true is odd to me.3) Finesse has downsides mechanically but advantages fluffwise. Power Attack is just the opposite. (You can't very well take a Greatsword into the King's Grand Ball, but a Rapier is part of a fashionable ensemble.). While finesse builds excell in certain environments those environments are never considered during Optimization Theorycrafting discussions....
Sometimes I think we need a guide to debunking theorycraft. I just spent the weekend playing PFS at Origins. I survived every scenario that I played in, thanks in no small part to combat healing, high armor class, and save-or-suck spells, all of which might as well be deadly sins as far as DPR calc goes.
On maneuvers;
Why do Feint and Dirty Trick get modified by STR ?
Makes no sense.
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Note that in the case of Disarm, Trip and Sunder, Weapon Finesse alone will allow you to use your DEX for your CMB.
Do you mind if I ask for a direct rules reference for that? I'm seriously considering building a Lore Warden focused on Trip and Disarm for PFS, and saving a feat, especially at low levels, is going to be huge.
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Actually, if you use combat maneuvers with a weapon, Finesse applies to the CMB (unless I'm mistaken). Even if you try to trip or disarm with a rapier, you can add your Dex mod if you have Finesse.
But yes, the Lore Warden does look like a Maneuver Master for Fighters (as well as being better at thinking on their feet)
Lore Wardens look like a great class kit for capturing the classic "Warrior sage" archetype of myth as well as the "gentleman warrior/renaissance man" archetype of swashbuckling games.
This is clearly a niche build, but I've contemplated a Dervish Dance alchemist a bit. The Grenadier archetype would grant proficiency with the scimitar, and the Alchemical Weapon ability would add some bang to your damage (as would your Dex mutagen, albeit minimally). Taken further, you could stack the Vivisectionist archetype as well for sneak attack, although doing so negates a lot of the abilities granted by the Grenadier.
Just something I've been thinking about.
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I made up a half-elf (Detective) bard for PFS, with Exotic Weapon Proficiency in the swordbreaker dagger; dipping two levels into Lore Warden, he does next to no damage in melee yet helps out his more damage-dealing team-mates. Pre-fight performances, Timely Inspiration or Sleep, and disarming everyone meant nobody was complaining about his utter lack of DPR.
(Also, LG alignment and masterwork manacles)
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Note that in the case of Disarm, Trip and Sunder, Weapon Finesse alone will allow you to use your DEX for your CMB.Do you mind if I ask for a direct rules reference for that? I'm seriously considering building a Lore Warden focused on Trip and Disarm for PFS, and saving a feat, especially at low levels, is going to be huge.
Blog about maneuvers, stating that Disarm, Sunder and Trip inherently use a weapon while other maneuvers don't (and unarmed strike counts as a weapon for these purposes).
Here is a post from Sean K Reynolds confirming that the correct interpretation of existing Core rules about what bonuses apply to a maneuver is that if you're using a weapon for the maneuver (see first link), and that weapon would normally be affected by Weapon Finesse, then WF applies to the maneuver as well.
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Note that in the case of Disarm, Trip and Sunder, Weapon Finesse alone will allow you to use your DEX for your CMB.Do you mind if I ask for a direct rules reference for that? I'm seriously considering building a Lore Warden focused on Trip and Disarm for PFS, and saving a feat, especially at low levels, is going to be huge.Blog about maneuvers, stating that Disarm, Sunder and Trip inherently use a weapon while other maneuvers don't (and unarmed strike counts as a weapon for these purposes).
Here is a post from Sean K Reynolds confirming that the correct interpretation of existing Core rules about what bonuses apply to a maneuver is that if you're using a weapon for the maneuver (see first link), and that weapon would normally be affected by Weapon Finesse, then WF applies to the maneuver as well.
Found it. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Agile weapon enchantment and Piranha strike feat make up for it easily.. Also its unbelivable to presume a gm would house rule double slice to work with dex damage as well.. theres also the dervise dance feat with scimitars, which if ur a 2wf fighter archetype duel wielding scimitars could make a great crit build on this..
Hate to burst your bubble, but Dervish Dance only works with one Scimitar. You can't have anything else in your other hand.
Also, you can still get Power Attack if you have sufficient strength (My magus does, and she's a Dervish Dancer.)
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Its not perfect but I like my Urban Barbarian/Dervish dancing bard character. With a wand of Reduce Person.
A barbarian with a two handed sword out damages her and a sword and board fighter has a higher AC but she is definitely more than effective enough for PFS play. She has the massive advantage of being a skill monkey as well as a fairly good fighter with a very decent AC (especially when reduced and/or raging). Her spells (almost all buff spells) are also very useful under the right circumstances
She is never quite optimal but she can contribute meaningfully to just about everything that comes up. She is especially valuable in PFS play since she is so versatile and can stand in for just about whatever role the party needs (she has a fair number of scrolls to enhance her innate versatility)
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I have a love hate relationship with "finesse" fighters.
I love them on the surface. and play them even though people hate when i do because i am not damage optimized.
but at this point I cant see way to make them TRULY balanced because IF you were to put all of the combat benefits into DEX then STR becomes the ultimate dump stat as all it will do is determine carrying weight and the climb and swim skills. climb/swim are rarely used and the weight issue can be easily remedied with things like bag of holding or muleback cords.
Everything else, damage, hit bonus, AC, reflex save, and many skills would then all be stacked onto DEX overbalancing the ability score.
so if a truly viable finesse fighter were made it SHOULD be hard to build and should have some penalties.
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Be sure to put that into your eventual guide! ;)
Oh my yes.
What I have in mind is a guide covering the different Finesse builds that can stay competitive, the myths and facts about finesse and some counterarguments for elements of theorycraft that I or other contributors to this thread have found to be less true in play than on paper.
For builds, what I have in mind so far are:
Dervish Magus
Lore Warden
Qik's Dervish Alchemist build
Curve Blade/Aldori THF
Archery/Curve Blade switch hitter
Two-Weapon Feint Rogue/Ninja
Dervish Duelist
Taking other suggestions! : )
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I have a love hate relationship with "finesse" fighters.
I love them on the surface. and play them even though people hate when i do because i am not damage optimized.
but at this point I cant see way to make them TRULY balanced because IF you were to put all of the combat benefits into DEX then STR becomes the ultimate dump stat as all it will do is determine carrying weight and the climb and swim skills. climb/swim are rarely used and the weight issue can be easily remedied with things like bag of holding or muleback cords.
Everything else, damage, hit bonus, AC, reflex save, and many skills would then all be stacked onto DEX overbalancing the ability score.
so if a truly viable finesse fighter were made it SHOULD be hard to build and should have some penalties.
I think a "feat tax" of 2-3 is pretty fair.
Part of the problem is that you can dump Dex and still be a good melee, but you can't dump Str and be a good melee. Str is not a god stat, but it is a one-stat-to-rule-them-all as far as melee is concerned. I wouldn't be opposed to a system that forced balanced stats.
Another problem is that theorycrafters tend to undervalue AC, Reflex saves, and Dex skills in favor of more damage. Part of the purpose of my finesse guide will be to debunk some unbalanced theorycraft myths.
sure. your going to have to waste quite a few feats and thats fair.
but I still think if a build were possible which made dex fighters deal just as much damage as strength fighters it would be a broken build in terms of over all game play.
having said all that I think rangers would be a good build to use. not because a dex ranger maxes out damage but because it maxes out other skills and abilities used by a dex bassed class.
To be honest, I've been working on a Duelist guide for a couple of months. It's about 70% done. I should get on that.
Undervaluing AC, reflex saves and Dex skills is not a theorycrafting shortcoming. It is the result of poor GMing. To many rookie DMs stop using skill checks after clvl 3 or just hand wave stuff as easy. Reflex saves are the result of players and GMs having come to the shared realization that AoE spells that do damage are weak, never mind that it's not true, when you hit multiple players for 25 damage you've hurt them. They've got to expend resources to recover from that. While SoS and battlefield control spells are better for PC casters the same dynamic doesn't apply to NPCs. This is even more true in games where optimization has run amok, no rogues or monks, low reflex classes with little in the way of high end static energy resistance. AC is valuable, even in theoryland, the hard core optimizers will usually jump up AC to stratospheric levels early on since AC is a cheap buy on gear.
If you're looking to do more damage with Finesse, you need to look at what it is that's causing you to do less damage in the first place:
First, STR mod. Presumably, if you're using Weapon Finesse, you have a low STR. So your attacks are dealing +0 or +1 damage. Meanwhile, the guy with 18 STR and a two-handed weapon is dealing +6 damage (and that will go up with stat boosts later on). So that's your first barrier.
Second, the two-handers are using Power Attack, which gives them +3 damage to start, and scales with BAB. So that's your second barrier.
So the 2HPA guy with 18 STR is dealing +12 damage by 4th level, while the Finesse guy's +1 hasn't changed since 1st level.
Therefore, if you want to get your Finesse damage up, you need to do one of two things: achieve the same damage bonuses the 2HPA guy is, or achieve some other damage bonus that he doesn't get.
The latter is the value of the rogue or ninja: sneak attack damage doesn't care about your STR, so by 9th level you're dealing +5d6 (17.5 average) damage, compared to Power Attack's +9 damage. You must weigh this, however, against the fact that Sneak Attack is conditional while Power Attack is not.
The former (achieving the same bonuses) can be somewhat replaced by the Agile weapon enchantment, allowing a Finesse weapon to add DEX bonus to damage (same with the Dervish Dance feat). Unfortunately, you can't gain the +50% boost for two-handed fighting.
Another idea that I'm kind of toying with is this: use Power Attack along with Weapon Finesse. The Elven Curve Blade and the Spiked Chain can both be used with Weapon Finesse, but are two-handed weapons and therefore give you the 3:1 damage boost from Power Attack. You'll need 13 STR, but that's not a bad idea for the sake of carrying capacity anyway. I think this should be explored further.
I am currently playing a rogue with this exact build, using the elven curved blade as well as Power Attack (probably get it at level 2) and a 14 Strength. So far, with the sneak attack, it's not too shabby. I plan on continuing down a crit build in later levels.
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Undervaluing AC, reflex saves and Dex skills is not a theorycrafting shortcoming. It is the result of poor GMing. To many rookie DMs stop using skill checks after clvl 3 or just hand wave stuff as easy. Reflex saves are the result of players and GMs having come to the shared realization that AoE spells that do damage are weak, never mind that it's not true, when you hit multiple players for 25 damage you've hurt them. They've got to expend resources to recover from that. While SoS and battlefield control spells are better for PC casters the same dynamic doesn't apply to NPCs. This is even more true in games where optimization has run amok, no rogues or monks, low reflex classes with little in the way of high end static energy resistance. AC is valuable, even in theoryland, the hard core optimizers will usually jump up AC to stratospheric levels early on since AC is a cheap buy on gear.
A lot of guides and theorycrafters, while admitting more AC is good, often insist that more damage, even if the damage increase is less than the AC increase, is better. There's a certain point where it becomes an issue of diminishing returns. In my experience, monsters deal a LOT of damage, and often shut off full-melee-attack-every-round strategies by flying, moving, or hitting the party with nasty debuffs. Being able to survive for one more round of inflicting 40 DPR on a monster seems like a better deal than inflicting 60 DPR at the serious risk of dropping dead on the monster's turn.
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Page 199 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook says, “When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.” That last sentence implies that some weapons apply their bonuses on combat maneuver checks, and some do not. So how do you know which weapons do? The answer depends on what kind of combat maneuver you’re attempting, and in some cases what kind of weapon you’re using.
Disarm, sunder, and trip are normally the only kinds of combat maneuvers in which you’re actually using a weapon (natural weapons and unarmed strikes are considered weapons for this purpose) to perform the maneuver, and therefore the weapon’s bonuses (enhancement bonuses, feats such as Weapon Focus, fighter weapon training, and so on) apply to the roll.
Let's use a hypothetical stat line:
Level 5 lore warden: 8 str, 14 dex
Relevant info,
+2 to CMB (maneuver mastery)
+5 BAB
-1 STR mod
+2 DEX mod
Weapon training: Monk weapons
Now what happens when I use weapon finesse?
Base CMB = 6. (+5 BAB, 2 MMastery, -1 STR)
So I attack with my Hanbo, I roll a d20, and add 6, then any bonuses my weapon normally gets? This means it's D20, + 6 (base CMB), +1 (weapon Training), +2 (Dex mod from weapon finesse)??
Let's take out Weapon Finesse:
So my base CMB = 6. (+5 BAB, +2 MMastery, -1 STR)
When I attack with a trip weapon (Hanbo), I roll a d20, and add 6, then any bonuses that the weapon gets normally.
So it's D20, +6 (base CMB) , +1 (weapon training) and -1 (STR mod) ??
It just doesn't seem consistent. I don't think it's intended to give you a double whammy to STR (in this case) by lacking weapon finesse.
If that is the way it works, then you'd get DOUBLE the dex bonus by taking weapon finesse AND agile maneuvers.
The same character with both feats looks like:
Base CMB = 9. (+5 BAB, 2 MMastery, +2 DEX)
Attack with trip weapon (Hanbo): Roll 1d20, add 9 (base CMB), +1 (weapon training), AND +2 (DEX mod)
The way it's written, this is exactly the case. Weapon finesse and Agile Maneuvers will give massive CMB bonuses to DEX builds.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects.