but at this point I cant see way to make them TRULY balanced because IF you were to put all of the combat benefits into DEX then STR becomes the ultimate dump stat as all it will do is determine carrying weight and the climb and swim skills. climb/swim are rarely used and the weight issue can be easily remedied with things like bag of holding or muleback cords.
I still think Cha would be a bigger dump stat to someone who's not playing the party face or a cha-based class. Yeah, str would not determine much (you forgot breaking object DCs and bursting open doors and the like, and it's still adding to your CMD, so a penalty will hurt), but that carrying capacity is VERY important. A high dex character absolutely does not want to hit medium weight capacity, that crushes them pretty hard. Instant AC cap, and more than likely they have some class features that cease functioning.
I'm playing a dex-focused Goblin Viv. Alchemist right now, and my str is 9 (after racial -2), and I'm definitely worried skirting the edge so close like that will come back to bite me. And I didn't even really "dump" mine, an 11 pre-race is average score.
For builds, what I have in mind so far are:
Dervish Magus
Lore Warden
Qik's Dervish Alchemist build
Curve Blade/Aldori THF
Archery/Curve Blade switch hitter
Two-Weapon Feint Rogue/Ninja
Dervish DuelistTaking other suggestions! : )
I'd add Vivvisectionist Alchemist w/ Feral Mutagen.
Amulet of Mighty Fists doesn't require a +1 first, so as soon as you can afford the 5000 gp, you can get Agile put on it and now your 3 natural attacks are all using dex instead of str for damage (as is your [gauntlet-clad to count it a armed] unarmed strike when mutagen is not in effect). And you have sneak attack to help, too. And with Beastmorph you'll eventually have pounce. And you have greater invisibility right there on your class "spell" list.
You should also add Dawnflower Dervish Bard. They get Dervish Dance for free at level 1 (which actually precludes them even needing weapon finesse if they stick to scimitar only for melee), and their self-only inspire courage is both faster to activate than normal and at double normal bonus. So the +2 at level 1, +4 at level 5, and so forth... easily make up for the medium BAB compared to a fighter or something.
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Then how do the calculations work to get the single dip in bonus by weapon finesse?
It's not consistent.
You are either adding your DEX into your CMB, or you are adding your DEX after the fact.
If you are adding your dex after the fact, then you are simply making a weapon roll and to be damned with your CMB, but that's not how it's worded.
“When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.”
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Then how do the calculations work to get the single dip in bonus by weapon finesse?
It's not consistent.
You are either adding your DEX into your CMB, or you are adding your DEX after the fact.
If you are adding your dex after the fact, then you are simply making a weapon roll and to be damned with your CMB, but that's not how it's worded.
“When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.”
When making a weapon-using combat maneuver via an eligible weapon with Weapon Finesse, you use your DEX mod instead of your STR mod to calculate your CMB. When making any combat maneuver with Agile Maneuvers, you use your DEX mod instead of STR mod to calculate your CMB.
Qualifying for both doesn't let you add your DEX mod twice. It's a substitution. And once you've subbed in your DEX for your STR once, you no longer have STR there to sub out for a second helping of DEX. You can't replace the same thing twice.
Where's your confusion coming from?
You don't get to double-dip your DEX by having both Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers.
Nope. Agile maneuvers is a terribad feat. As DM, I'd just fold it into Weapon Finesse...
What you CAN do is take Fury's Fall + Weapon Finesse to double dip dex for tripping specifically. Main problem, aside from "yet another feat" is that you can only trip things up to one size larger, and the way PF works... going down in size (either starting as a small race or via transmutation magic) increases dex, but going up in size decreases it.... So you either have to severely limit the amount of monsters you can trip to the point of possibly being cripplingly overspecialized, or forgo the whole benefit of being single ability dependent in the first place and accept the reduced dex.
I really wouldn't bother with maneuvers as a finesse fighter... Only good one you can use w/o the size limit is grapple, and treating that as a weapon attack is difficult. And spending another feat on Agile Maneuvers makes you a sucker. :p
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This:
When making a weapon-using combat maneuver via an eligible weapon with Weapon Finesse, you use your DEX mod instead of your STR mod to calculate your CMB.I understand it as intention, but where in the blog or rules does it state that?
I wasn't confused until I read that blog TBH.
Upthread a bit I linked a post from Sean K Reynolds (from the discussion thread of said blog) in which he explains it. Same post where I linked the blog itself.
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from the blog
(BTW, this also means if you're using a finesse weapon to make a disarm, sunder, or trip, you should use your Dex instead of Str when calculating your CMB for the check.)
That little tidbit seems crucial and isn't very obvious being buried that far into the blog comments.
Now I finally understand how completely avoiding Agile Maneuvers is a good thing for any DEX build that wants to use a weapon based Combat Maneuver.
It doesn't even matter if I dump STR, it never shows up in the calculation.
Furthermore, if you have a lenient DM, you could describe things like Dirty trick to use your weapon and get a weapon finesse DEX calculation via this comment:
Of course, the GM is free to rule that in certain circumstances, a creature can apply weapon bonuses for these maneuvers, such as when using a sap in a dirty trick maneuver to hit an opponent in a sensitive spot.
Thanks for pointing all that out Jiggy. Makes a large impact on DEX builds imo.
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For builds, what I have in mind so far are:
Dervish Magus
Lore Warden
Qik's Dervish Alchemist build
Curve Blade/Aldori THF
Archery/Curve Blade switch hitter
Two-Weapon Feint Rogue/Ninja
Dervish DuelistTaking other suggestions! : )
I'd add Vivvisectionist Alchemist w/ Feral Mutagen.
Amulet of Mighty Fists doesn't require a +1 first, so as soon as you can afford the 5000 gp, you can get Agile put on it and now your 3 natural attacks are all using dex instead of str for damage (as is your [gauntlet-clad to count it a armed] unarmed strike when mutagen is not in effect). And you have sneak attack to help, too. And with Beastmorph you'll eventually have pounce. And you have greater invisibility right there on your class "spell" list.
You should also add Dawnflower Dervish Bard. They get Dervish Dance for free at level 1 (which actually precludes them even needing weapon finesse if they stick to scimitar only for melee), and their self-only inspire courage is both faster to activate than normal and at double normal bonus. So the +2 at level 1, +4 at level 5, and so forth... easily make up for the medium BAB compared to a fighter or something.
I can't believe I never caught that on the Dawnflower Dervish. Okay, will add that too.
Also the amulet. Nice find. I never noticed that. That makes Dex monks a serious contender.
Another point against WF.
As StreamoftheSKY points out, size alterations have a negative impact on DEX. It's a wonky rule; I get larger or smaller and somehow my hand-eye coordination and physical reflexes change, despite the fact that my equipment is proportional and my STR altered proportional to my mass. Somehow my CON is unaffected. Other than the size adjustment the PC is the same internally, it is simply his interactions with the external world that are different. Someone read to many old Hank Pym stories.
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You don't get to double-dip your DEX by having both Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers.Nope. Agile maneuvers is a terribad feat. As DM, I'd just fold it into Weapon Finesse...
What you CAN do is take Fury's Fall + Weapon Finesse to double dip dex for tripping specifically. Main problem, aside from "yet another feat" is that you can only trip things up to one size larger, and the way PF works... going down in size (either starting as a small race or via transmutation magic) increases dex, but going up in size decreases it.... So you either have to severely limit the amount of monsters you can trip to the point of possibly being cripplingly overspecialized, or forgo the whole benefit of being single ability dependent in the first place and accept the reduced dex.
I really wouldn't bother with maneuvers as a finesse fighter... Only good one you can use w/o the size limit is grapple, and treating that as a weapon attack is difficult. And spending another feat on Agile Maneuvers makes you a sucker. :p
I'd assume that with Hamatula Strike you'd use your DEX instead of STR for calculating the CMB if you have weapon finesse and are using a finessible piercing weapon.
Hamatula Strike (Combat)
You can catch your opponents on your weapon and hold them in place.
Prerequisites: Improved Grapple, Strength 13, Base Attack Bonus +7.
Benefit: Whenever you damage an opponent with a piercing weapon, you can immediately make a grapple check; success means the opponent is impaled on your weapon and you both gain the grappled condition. While the opponent is impaled, as an attack action you may make a grapple check on your turn at a -4 penalty to damage the opponent with your weapon, even if your weapon cannot normally be used in a grapple.
Normal: You can only attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against opponents you are grappling.
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@Veldebrand: Yes, it should sub in Dex instead of Str for Agile Maneuvers.
@OP: I am running a dex-based Polearm Master fighter in PFS.
I didn't take Fury's Fall to appease one of the local GMs, he seems to think my PC's trip bonus is high enough.
Agile Maneuvers
EWP: Fauchard
Combat Expertise
Improved & Greater Disarm & Trip
Improved Crit: Fauchard
Combat Reflexes (ANY dex-based build using melee weapons should have this as a given. So should any Fighter Archer with Snap Shot/Improved Snap Shot)
Butterfly's Sting, which lets me give my criticals (1d10+3, 15-20/x2) to someone else who does melee attacks, which will be great when I have a combat partner with an x3 or x4 weapon. (evil grin here)
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3. Increased armor class using lighter armor.
And yet, interestingly, the DEX guy in light armor will always have lower AC than someone in heavier armor. Take somebody with 18 DEX and put them in a chain shirt, and they have an AC of 18. Put that same guy in a breastplate, and his AC's gone up to 19. Upgrade to full plate and he's at 20.
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An important thing to remember is that Finesse builds are giving you things you get back for the tradeoff of lesser damage.
1. Higher initiative counts from higher Dex.
The problem with higher Init is that you have to make going first count for something. If you are not capable of either dealing significant damage or somehow debuffing/disabling an opponent, the fact that you went first will not make a difference.
It's something I plan to cover in the guide - Magus spells, Combat Maneuvers, or high damage due to Agile/Dervish will make going first be worth losing 10 DPR, but going first, by itself, isn't really that good.
3. Increased armor class using lighter armor. which also means you're more mobile than non-fighters using heavy armor.
Mobility is not as hard to get as it used to be. The top contenders for insane melee damage, Fighters and Barbs, are both capable of getting their full speed in medium armor. By the middle levels, Fighters are capable of getting full speed in heavy armor.
For other classes that get less impressive armor, the high Dex isn't an advantage - it's more like a requirement to keep your AC competitive with the fighter in heavy armor. In that way, light armor classes are actually a bit MAD, and Weapon Finesse is a way of mitigating the MADness rather than an advantage.
The trick is to find ways to make it less damaging, and capitalize on the advantages that do exist.
As far as I see it, Init is one of the main advantages of relying on Dex. If you can find a way to make it so that going first=WIN, then the DPR monsters will envy your Dex. The two ways that I can think of, off the top of my head, to make going first=WIN, are extreme debuff/buff/damage spells (Color Spray, Haste, Slow, Shocking Grasp, Frigid Touch) or "I Win!" combat maneuvers, like, say, Trip or Disarm. A Lore Warden, restricted to light armor, won't exactly make Dex into an advantage, but the Lore Warden archetype itself requires Dex to survive, and is better at maneuvers than a non-Lore Warden Fighter can ever be.
An interesting rules technicality: If you trip someone and then disarm them with your offhand weapon, they are prone in a space with their weapon. By RAW, getting up is a move action, as is picking up the dropped weapon. Success at trip and disarm could cost someone their entire turn (and grant two AoOs to those with Combat Reflexes) - if the GM does not rule that they can pick up weapons from prone as a free action.
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I'm a big fan of initiative. Going first always gives you the option to act or defer. I find my DEX based warrior deferring a lot. However, she's built as an anti-caster (brawler archetype with menacing stance, disruptive feat, step up and strike feat chain), so if there is a caster in the mist then she's going for it. Getting to an enemy caster before it acts is win for her.
Of course that's just her specialty, your character will have other strong points that can take advantage of going first in whatever relevant situation you happen to be in.
Winning initiative gives you the capability to act first or defer depending on what benefits your party the most.
I think it's one of the stronger points of going with a Weapon Finesse build; the fact that high DEX means high initiative.
As to whether your character would benefit from expending more resources (improved initiative, reactionary, etc) in it is up to you and the vision of your role/responsibilities.
As my wife plays a Dervish dancing Lore warden in PFS I can tell you that going first is a good way to get killed unless you have some way to seriously de-buff the baddie.
Even with dervish dance she does a whopping 1d6+4 (18-20) at 3rd level...
That is nothing, or close enough to nothing to not matter.
However she has a +13 to trip. (+15 on a charge)
THAT is something, in almost every encounter we have run in PFS round 1 goes the same way.
High dex tripper goes before the baddies, charge, trip, baddies on their butts.
we have had many high damage characters start to delay the few times she rolls like crap for Init, as they really want that extra +4 to hit from the baddie being prone.
so realy IMO a finnesse fighter should go for CM more then raw damage.
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I'm a big fan of initiative. Going first always gives you the option to act or defer. I find my DEX based warrior deferring a lot. However, she's built as an anti-caster (brawler archetype with menacing stance, disruptive feat, step up and strike feat chain), so if there is a caster in the mist then she's going for it. Getting to an enemy caster before it acts is win for her.
Of course that's just her specialty, your character will have other strong points that can take advantage of going first in whatever relevant situation you happen to be in.
Winning initiative gives you the capability to act first or defer depending on what benefits your party the most.
I think it's one of the stronger points of going with a Weapon Finesse build; the fact that high DEX means high initiative.
As to whether your character would benefit from expending more resources (improved initiative, reactionary, etc) in it is up to you and the vision of your role/responsibilities.
Definitely agreed. Going first can be the difference between life and death. The only issue is that you need something to do with that first turn that will single-handedly change the outcome of the battle.
I do agree, though, that there are lots of things Dex characters can do with that first turn. Its just that with Finesse builds, unless you are a Magus or a high-level Duelist, dealing buckets of damage is not one of them.
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Another interesting bit is that rangers make excellent Finesse warriors. The ability to ignore pre-reqs (such as 13 STR) allows the to pick up Power Attack with their Style feats.
I had a theory build that went Half Elf Ranger 2/Rogue (Scout)8.
he dumped STR and had a +1 Agile Aldori Dueling Sword, and a +1 Agile Spiked Gauntlet. On a charge or move action, he would TH the Aldori Dueling Sword with Power Attack. On a Full Attack, preferably while flanking or while his foes were flat footed, He would TWF with the Aldori Dueling Sword and the Spiked Gauntlet. The Scout Archetype of course allowed Sneak Attack damage on a charge or move action of more than 10 ft. Power Attack allowed for decent damage on moves and charges,s TWF allowed for good damage on full attacks.
On paper i felt it covered a lot of the weaknesses of rogue finesse builds. However, I never got to test it in a game.
sad.
TWF with Aldori Sword and Unarmed Strike (with Amulet of Mighty Fists enchanted wiht Agile) could also work out, since it fulfills the Aldori Swordlord requirement of having an Aldori Sword in one hand and nothing in the other.
The Scout archetype, the Knifemaster archetype, and the Two Weapon Feint feat chain cover some of the weaknesses of Rogue/Ninja builds focusing on Finesse and SA. It's still better to stand still and TWF in a flank, but having the Scout class or Two Weapon Feint makes it possible to solo a baddie or break flanking without becoming totally useless.
Knifemaster will end up with better SA DPR than other Rogues, which is good in the DPR debate, because Finesse TWF SA Rogues were lagging a little behind. d8 SA should close the gap.
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How big of a difference in Str and Dex is worth the feat? I usually don't take it unless I get a +3 increase out of the deal. Just too many other feats to worry about. Weapon Focus gets a +1 and opens up other feats, which Weapon Finesse doesn't do last I remember.
Out of curiosity, does that +3 have to happen at first level? I'm looking at a 13STR/16DEX guy who will use Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. I guess if I wanted I could take Weapon Focus instead (only a -1 loss at that point) and then it becomes equal if I bump STR to 14 at 4th (which I plan on).
On the other hand, with the Finesse route I can "focus my wealth" on a DEX belt. Additionally, having Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus puts me higher than having just the latter.
What would you do in a similar situation?
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How big of a difference in Str and Dex is worth the feat? I usually don't take it unless I get a +3 increase out of the deal. Just too many other feats to worry about. Weapon Focus gets a +1 and opens up other feats, which Weapon Finesse doesn't do last I remember.
The only feats I've found that have Weapon Finesse as a pre-req are:
Aldori Dueling Mastery (inner sea world guide)
Dervish Dance (Inner sea world guide, Qadira, Gateway to the East)
Piranha Strike (Sargava, the lost colony)
Serpent Lash (Rival Guide, Osirian, Land of Pharaohs)
As to the secondary weapon with an Agile enchantment while TWF,
I strongly prefer to avoid the money in this because your secondary attack only receives 50% of the modifier. That damage seems to be fairly insignificant compared to an enchantment like Menacing, which, to my knowledge, you count as your own ally so you'd get +4 to hit bonus from flanking.
Or that secondary weapon you could enchant with something that has more utility. I however just don't see it worth the money unless you are going the whole Improved TWF, Greater TWF route, but then putting yourself in flank with Menacing will probably work out better.
I think secondary hand weapon considerations should include silver or cold iron, along with a different damage type.
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How big of a difference in Str and Dex is worth the feat? I usually don't take it unless I get a +3 increase out of the deal. Just too many other feats to worry about. Weapon Focus gets a +1 and opens up other feats, which Weapon Finesse doesn't do last I remember.
It's not a big deal at first level, but at the mid levels there's a big gap, because whatever the PC's primary ability is will be 4-6 points higher, and therefore +1 to +3 higher, than at start, thanks to level 4 and 8 ability increases and +2 or +4 stat items. By level 10, a PC's favorite ability score is usually 6 points higher than at the start.
My Finesse Magus (going into Dervish) has 13 Str and 16 Dex at level 1. By level 4, I expect him to have 19 Dex (+1 from ability increases and +2 from Belt of incredible Dexterity) and by 10 I expect to have a 22 Dex (Base 16, +2 from ability increases, +4 from Belt of Incredible Dexterity). My Strength will still be 13. That's a modifier difference of 5.
If I reversed those scores for comparison and leveled the character to 10, I end up with a Strength Magus who is down 5 AC, 5 Init, 5 Reflex save, and +5 to Dex skills in comparison to the Dervish. In return, the 22 Str, 13 Dex Magus has two more feats to play with, but spent most of the climb to level 10 with a terrible AC, and then finally got a decent AC, and lost 10 feet of move speed.
For the Magus especially, I actually think that Finesse/Dervish isn't just a matter of trying to make the most of an aesthetic decision - I think that Finesse with Dervish might be the superior choice for Magus at the lower and middle levels, before you can fly around in Mithral Full Plate.
Lore Warden is another class where I think Finesse is actually better than Strength, specifically because the LW will otherwise have a truly abysmal AC.
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As to power attack,
I typically build character plans out to level 12 with PFS play in mind. About every single melee type I've looked at that doesn't invest HEAVILY in a to-hit stat and feats, breaks about even or loses damage from full attacks with power attack. (full attacks, not standard action attacks).
Because the penalty to your to-hit hammers the chances of your iteratives. Unless your first attack modifier is almost an auto hit (95% chance) with power attack, you are probably just breaking even or losing damage. (on full attacks)
With that said, a full BAB class with weapon focus, heavy investments in their To-hit stat, will rock face with power attack. It's just not that good for a hybrid type character that dabbles in melee. (your mileage will vary, depending on your unique set of stats and the opponent you are targeting).
However, I -always- put any character through spreadsheets to see if power attack , (ESPECIALLY furious focus), is a waste of precious feats or not.
Furious focus is almost never a good idea for a full BAB class. Your first iterative will almost always hit with or without it. Wasted feat. Characters with weaker to hit scores will see improvement.
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Out of curiosity, does that +3 have to happen at first level? I'm looking at a 13STR/16DEX guy who will use Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. I guess if I wanted I could take Weapon Focus instead (only a -1 loss at that point) and then it becomes equal if I bump STR to 14 at 4th (which I plan on).
On the other hand, with the Finesse route I can "focus my wealth" on a DEX belt. Additionally, having Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus puts me higher than having just the latter.
What would you do in a similar situation?
First level is usually when I notice it. I've never actually gotten to a higher level where magic items change the ratio.
If I know the difference will eventually be more than +2 or 3, then I would possibly take it. But when you only end up playing for two or three levels, that doesn't come into play.
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Another interesting bit is that rangers make excellent Finesse warriors. The ability to ignore pre-reqs (such as 13 STR) allows the to pick up Power Attack with their Style feats.
I had a theory build that went Half Elf Ranger 2/Rogue (Scout)8.
he dumped STR and had a +1 Agile Aldori Dueling Sword, and a +1 Agile Spiked Gauntlet. On a charge or move action, he would TH the Aldori Dueling Sword with Power Attack. On a Full Attack, preferably while flanking or while his foes were flat footed, He would TWF with the Aldori Dueling Sword and the Spiked Gauntlet. The Scout Archetype of course allowed Sneak Attack damage on a charge or move action of more than 10 ft. Power Attack allowed for decent damage on moves and charges,s TWF allowed for good damage on full attacks.
On paper i felt it covered a lot of the weaknesses of rogue finesse builds. However, I never got to test it in a game.
sad.
TWF with Aldori Sword and Unarmed Strike (with Amulet of Mighty Fists enchanted wiht Agile) could also work out, since it fulfills the Aldori Swordlord requirement of having an Aldori Sword in one hand and nothing in the other.
The Scout archetype, the Knifemaster archetype, and the Two Weapon Feint feat chain cover some of the weaknesses of Rogue/Ninja builds focusing on Finesse and SA. It's still better to stand still and TWF in a flank, but having the Scout class or Two Weapon Feint makes it possible to solo a baddie or break flanking without becoming totally useless.
Knifemaster will end up with better SA DPR than other Rogues, which is good in the DPR debate, because Finesse TWF SA Rogues were lagging a little behind. d8 SA should close the gap.
1.) Aldori Swordlord doesnt allow you to ignore pre-reqs like a Ranger does, thus Ranger is more efficient, as far as Finesse goes. You can also 2 hand Power Attack when Sneak attack won't do. IF you do that with Aldori Swordlord, you lose your bonuses.
2.)I don't like TW Feint because you...
Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to follow builds that ignore prereqs or dump strength, with the possible exception of builds that can get Dervish at level 1 or 2. Many home games along with APs and PFS make you play your character from level 1. Agile weapons are not going to be in the realm of possibility until level 6 or 7 if you're going by wealth-by-level charts or PFS fame limits to purchasing. When I build Finesse characters, I still work off of the idea that Strength is going to have to be 12 or higher anyhow, but plan to pour wealth and ability increases into Dex as I go forward.
Furious focus is almost never a good idea for a full BAB class. Your first iterative will almost always hit with or without it. Wasted feat. Characters with weaker to hit scores will see improvement.
Really?
To tell the truth I never even thought about this.
(Sorry for the de-rail)
I am planning out a oracle1/Barbarian XXXX and had planned on FF for my 5th level feat.
However I am maxing out strength as much as I can, and will have nearly full BAB.
Really gave me something to think about.
However, Power Attack is considered an essential feat for melee, and for good reason. This logic still applies to a Finesse melee build. Piranha Strike is also valid, considering its the same feat. However, you can't get the x3 damage potential out of it like Power Attack.
It's also worth pointing out that the 2 (IMO) best finnesse feats do not work together.
Piranha Strike requires a light weapon.
Dervish dance requires a Scimitar (Not a light weapon)
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Another killer for Finesse builds is our damage increasing goodies, (piranha strike, and agile weapon) does not give the 1.5x modifier for wielding in two hands. So not only do the Finesse builds have feat taxes, they don't even get as much benefit per resource spent. (the mechanics of duel-wielding further sets us behind but that is a longer complaint)
Because of that, sneak attack (a huge flat bonus of extra d6 damage dice PER hit), is wonderful, but you MUST be able to hit and hit lots. I'm building a ninja character for my g/f the only way to make it viable in the damage department (which is her view of the character concept, big sneaky hits), is to find every to-hit benefit I could along with the two-weapon fighting chain + natural attack (in her case tengu). Just hitting a target in a valid condition to add Sneak Attack damage is the only way to achieve respectable damage numbers.
For that build I went with Weapon Focus, TWF, ITWF, Agile (mainhand), Menacing (off), moonlight stalker (3 feats to get +2 to hit and +2 damage is like an 8th level fighter with Wfocus, GWfocus, and WSpec), Invisible blade and then implored her to ALWAYS go for a flank or get in position to get the sneak attack damage dice. The to hit modifiers from being invisible, concealed (moonlight stalker bonus), and in a flank is essential.
I originally tried to build it two-handing an elven curve blade and discovered that two-handed weapons are so full of fail in a finesse build that dumps str. But then you get into MAD if you don't.
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Also very true, which is why I advocate Ranger 2. it allows Power Attack with Dervish Dance (great as an entry into Duelist, which adds delicious Precise Strike) or Power Attack with elven Curve Blade or Aldori Dueling Sword... both of which you can use with 2-hands for MORE damage, if you invest instead in +1 Agile weapon(s).However, Power Attack is considered an essential feat for melee, and for good reason. This logic still applies to a Finesse melee build. Piranha Strike is also valid, considering its the same feat. However, you can't get the x3 damage potential out of it like Power Attack.It's also worth pointing out that the 2 (IMO) best finnesse feats do not work together.
Piranha Strike requires a light weapon.
Dervish dance requires a Scimitar (Not a light weapon)
This is what makes me so sad about Agile weapons:
AgileSource: Pathfinder Society Field Guide
Aura Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cat's grace; Price +1 bonus.
DESCRIPTION
This enhancement can only be placed on a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
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I advocate Ranger 2. it allows Power Attack with Dervish Dance (great as an entry into Duelist, which adds delicious Precise Strike) or Power Attack with elven Curve Blade or Aldori Dueling Sword... both of which you can use with 2-hands for MORE damage, if you invest instead in +1 Agile weapon(s).
Don't forget the "Favorite Enemy" benefit from being a ranger, either. That's huge if you end up fighting a lot of the same type of thing. Favorite Enemy (Human) is hard to ignore.
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Furious focus is almost never a good idea for a full BAB class. Your first iterative will almost always hit with or without it. Wasted feat. Characters with weaker to hit scores will see improvement.Really?
To tell the truth I never even thought about this.
(Sorry for the de-rail)
I am planning out a oracle1/Barbarian XXXX and had planned on FF for my 5th level feat.
However I am maxing out strength as much as I can, and will have nearly full BAB.
Really gave me something to think about.
At level 5 with your 4 bab and like a 22 buffed str with a +1 weapon (greatsword) against AC 18 (Bestiary Monster builder CR 5 baddie)
Full attack: (1i) ~ 13.09
Power attack: ~ 15.18
Power attack with furious focus: ~17.71
(as a side note, if you aren't swinging with a two handed weapon getting 1.5x bonus, then non-PA to PA nets you a measly +1.1 damage)
At level 8 with your 7 bab and like a 24 buffed str with a +2 weapon (greatsword) against AC 21 (Bestiary Monster builder CR 8 baddie)
Full attack: (1i) ~17.77 (2i) ~ 12.54 [30.31]
Power attack: (1i) ~21.56 (2i) ~ 13.86 [35.42]
Power attack with furious focus: (1i) ~26.18 (2i) ~ 13.86 [40.04]
With that it looks like furious focus will be good for you. I don't know how heavily you are going to invest in other to-hit goodies, (or how high your str is going to go), but for now this build doesn't look to-hit capped so will benefit from Furious focus.
You'll have to consider how much + hit you'll get from flanking and buffs also.
at lvl 11 a fighter can look like, (11 bab, 7 str, 4 weapon training, 1 weapon focus, 1 greater wf), that's +24 to hit against an ac of 25. Since you miss on 1's anyway, you are effectively hit-capped and you won't get any benefit from furious focus.
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People SHOULD have a mechanical reason to make STR builds: 1.5 times to damage does that.People SHOULD have a mechanical reason to make DEX builds. Currently that reason(s) is only visible after spending either 2 feats or a feat and 8k gold. And that, my friends is a tax, not a reason.
let STR builds have the niche of more damage. Let DEX builds have a niche that isnt a feat tax.
Can't help but agree. Part of my intent in doing this guide is to identify what that reason is. Right now, I can think of three where I think Dex is clearly a top tier option:
1. Being better at Magus than Str builds (higher Init, survivable AC)
2. Being better Lore Wardens (Ditto)
3. Switch-hitting (building a character that is viable at both Archery and THF)
As my wife plays a Dervish dancing Lore warden in PFS I can tell you that going first is a good way to get killed unless you have some way to seriously de-buff the baddie.
Even with dervish dance she does a whopping 1d6+4 (18-20) at 3rd level...
That is nothing, or close enough to nothing to not matter.
However she has a +13 to trip. (+15 on a charge)
THAT is something, in almost every encounter we have run in PFS round 1 goes the same way.
High dex tripper goes before the baddies, charge, trip, baddies on their butts.
we have had many high damage characters start to delay the few times she rolls like crap for Init, as they really want that extra +4 to hit from the baddie being prone.
so realy IMO a finnesse fighter should go for CM more then raw damage.
That sounds awesome as long as you never face anything but medium or small sized humanoids! Gods help you if you ever want to trip something Huge (or large, if you're a small PC) or bigger. Str-tripper can just get enlarged and go to town. Not such a great option for the dex-tripper...
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People SHOULD have a mechanical reason to make STR builds: 1.5 times to damage does that.People SHOULD have a mechanical reason to make DEX builds. Currently that reason(s) is only visible after spending either 2 feats or a feat and 8k gold. And that, my friends is a tax, not a reason.
let STR builds have the niche of more damage. Let DEX builds have a niche that isnt a feat tax.
Can't help but agree. Part of my intent in doing this guide is to identify what that reason is. Right now, I can think of three where I think Dex is clearly a top tier option:
1. Being better at Magus than Str builds (higher Init, survivable AC)
2. Being better Lore Wardens (Ditto)
3. Switch-hitting (building a character that is viable at both Archery and THF)
Lore Warden is fast becoming my favorite DEX based class/archetype. It seems like every dex based character i try to make has the same problems that A Brigand mentioned, where I just give up about 75% of the way through when I notice STR is just better.
As was touched on in the thread, a DEX based non-ranged character is going to be most effective when he brings anything else besides damage to the table; this can include but not limited to, combat maneuvers, a sparkling personality, a summoner friend, etc.
That sounds awesome as long as you never face anything but medium or small sized humanoids! Gods help you if you ever want to trip something Huge (or large, if you're a small PC) or bigger. Str-tripper can just get enlarged and go to town. Not such a great option for the dex-tripper...
And you make a great point.
I will admit it is a tad metagamish but as the character is for PFS we know that 90% of the things we will fight are med with 2 legs. :)
Agian tho, you are quite right for a lot of games
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That sounds awesome as long as you never face anything but medium or small sized humanoids! Gods help you if you ever want to trip something Huge (or large, if you're a small PC) or bigger. Str-tripper can just get enlarged and go to town. Not such a great option for the dex-tripper...And you make a great point.
I will admit it is a tad metagamish but as the character is for PFS we know that 90% of the things we will fight are med with 2 legs. :)
Agian tho, you are quite right for a lot of games
It's definitely a mid and high level issue. On the other hand, the low and mid levels are the ones where you are going to have to rely on Trip attacks to be useful.
At high levels, you have the opportunity to choose other maneuver feats, all of which are buffed by Lore Wardens, and have many spells which will change your size so you can target creatures bigger than Large.
I'd be willing to take the -2 Dex from Enlarge person if I got to Greater Trip a Giant or Dragon. By the mid and high levels, "Greater" maneuver feats and Lore Warden bonuses outstrip size modifiers and even multi-legs bonuses.
Plus at high levels you are no longer a one-trick Pony. Agile weapons help close the damage gap with Str characters, you're better at archery than Str characters (and that would be a great weapon group to choose for weapon training 2), and your Init still rules. It's a trade-off of sorts - LWs will be better against normal sized opponents, bruisers will be better against big scary monsters.
But that looks to me like some semblance of parity - Str and Dex are each better at certain kinds of fights.