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Replace "foul language," with "to stab me in the eye with a fork," and look how ridiculous the argument becomes.I don't condem those that don't like foul language, I just don't see it as some unbearable burden to ignore it if someone is swearing. Especially if that someone is someone you consider a friend.Replace "foul language" with "racist language" and look how ridiculous the argument becomes.
Yeah, both of those are pretty ridiculous!
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The point is - what polite society calls profanity is part of the vernacular in some parts of society. People who think it's easy to change the way others speak have probably never tried it themselves.
I don't know about that. When I was younger (before I got married and had kids, which is to say before I turned 30), I could and would cuss a blue-streak at the drop of a hat. In fact, I still can, but I choose not to.
It wasn't hard to make that change. I just had to be cognizant of the words coming out of my mouth. Unlike behaviors that a physiological or addictive component (like smoking or drinking), swearing is one of those behaviors you can change by choosing to change it.
-Skeld
It wasn't hard to make that change. I just had to be cognizant of the words coming out of my mouth. Unlike behaviors that a physiological or addictive component (like smoking or drinking), swearing is one of those behaviors you can change by choosing to change it.
I would entirely agree with this!
I just also want to note that, much like those other habitual behaviors, some have a more difficult time changing them, and experience higher degrees of stress in doing so, than others.
Different folks are different!
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Personally I agree that people can change certain behaviors like swearing. But they have to be willing to change. If not good luck. It's way too easy to say "well I did it so can you". Another person might turn around and say "good for you I'm not and if you don't like it your free to leave". The problem to day is that everyone assumes that people will act and behave like themselves. Which is usually not the case.
I saw this thread title and upon clicking on it was prepared to ask if the OP and drank their milk.....only to find it a thread from 2 years prior.The birth of a legend.
Will Smith was born in this thread?!
Also makes sense!
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Personally I agree that people can change certain behaviors like swearing. But they have to be willing to change. If not good luck. It's way too easy to say "well I did it so can you". Another person might turn around and say "good for you I'm not and if you don't like it your free to leave". The problem to day is that everyone assumes that people will act and behave like themselves. Which is usually not the case.
That's true; you won't change unless you're willing.
Doesn't the attitude of "if you don't like [my behavior] you're free to leave" seem kinda anti-social?
-Skeld
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I would say that the biggest reason I don't swear that often is because my father did so nearly constantly. I despised him so much, that I avoided doing anything he did, which is probably why I don't smoke, and drink about 2 beers every three months.The point is - what polite society calls profanity is part of the vernacular in some parts of society. People who think it's easy to change the way others speak have probably never tried it themselves.I don't know about that. When I was younger (before I got married and had kids, which is to say before I turned 30), I could and would cuss a blue-streak at the drop of a hat. In fact, I still can, but I choose not to.
It wasn't hard to make that change. I just had to be cognizant of the words coming out of my mouth. Unlike behaviors that a physiological or addictive component (like smoking or drinking), swearing is one of those behaviors you can change by choosing to change it.
-Skeld
Funny story. I have some friends that swear very liberally in front of their kids. When their daughter (my goddaughter) started kindergarten, they got a call the first week after she dropped a few f-bombs during show and tell. Hilarity ensued.
-Skeld
About as anti-social as "If you won't stop your behavior, get out." Maybe even less so.Personally I agree that people can change certain behaviors like swearing. But they have to be willing to change. If not good luck. It's way too easy to say "well I did it so can you". Another person might turn around and say "good for you I'm not and if you don't like it your free to leave". The problem to day is that everyone assumes that people will act and behave like themselves. Which is usually not the case.That's true; you won't change unless you're willing.
Doesn't the attitude of "if you don't like [my behavior] you're free to leave" seem kinda anti-social?
I think it's more "If you won't stop your behavior, I shall leave (unless I can't)." which, to be frank, is more than fair (for both parties).
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My point was that it's not one side's job to adapt to what the other side wants in this conflict of interest. It is completely irrelevant that you think it's easy for the other side to change, the only part of it you CAN change is YOUR part of it. You don't get a free pass because you consider swearing an ugly, uncouth, barbaric, stupid, moronic, uncomfortable, uncivilized, blasphemous or otherwise disagreeable behaviour. Just like swearing, it is your choice not to see it as the above or not, and if you do, you put the entire onus of change on the swearer. As TL says, if you want to be around that person, it's not a good method.
I'm not asking anybody to change (unless you're around my kids which none of you are), I just don't get the "woe is me, walking on eggshells" aspect of it. Do you really swear so constantly that it is unimaginable to turn it off for an afternoon?
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My point was that it's not one side's job to adapt to what the other side wants in this conflict of interest. It is completely irrelevant that you think it's easy for the other side to change, the only part of it you CAN change is YOUR part of it. You don't get a free pass because you consider swearing an ugly, uncouth, barbaric, stupid, moronic, uncomfortable, uncivilized, blasphemous or otherwise disagreeable behaviour. Just like swearing, it is your choice not to see it as the above or not, and if you do, you put the entire onus of change on the swearer. As TL says, if you want to be around that person, it's not a good method.Bonus onus.
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It's pretty easy. I cuss moderately in my house, around my friends.
At my parent's house, not once. I will not swear in front of my parents. I don't have a problem remembering, I don't slip. I just don't do it. Anytime I've been asked to watch my language, I do so around that person or persons. I don't see it as a rejection of me or my personality, it's in deference to the person asking, who is usually someone I respect.
It's not that hard. I don't have Tourette's.
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It's pretty easy. I cuss moderately in my house, around my friends.
At my parent's house, not once. I will not swear in front of my parents. I don't have a problem remembering, I don't slip. I just don't do it. Anytime I've been asked to watch my language, I do so around that person or persons. I don't see it as a rejection of me or my personality, it's in deference to the person asking, who is usually someone I respect.
It's not that hard. I don't have Tourette's.
For the sake of those 90% of Tourette's sufferers who don't swear, I want to point out that Tourette's Syndrome does not equate swearing. Coprolalia, on the other hand, does, but that's only present in 10% of those with Tourette's.
I wasn't going to get involved, but now that I'm posting something anyway... I'm in a boat quite similar to Sissyl's, with the Scandinavian (Danish) society being so used to swears that they don't really mean anything anymore. "Sgu" used to be a swear word, as it's a contraction of "så Gud" (by God), and you shouldn't use His name in vain. Well, a few years back it was just decided that it wasn't a swear word anymore, and just another word used for emphasis. Hell turns up a bit, we have a few swears involving at least 3 different words/names for the devil, and "the F-word" has become a thoroughly integrated part of the language in its own way. Just it's nowhere near as offensive as in English-speaking countries and most people don't really give a, uhmm... poop about it.
I would give it a try if someone I knew asked me not to swear, but coarse language comes so naturally to me that I might slip up a bit. For example my sister doesn't really like it when I call random stuff... poop... —a habit which I've picked up from my mom, I think. (As in, "move your ****", "where's my ****" etc.). I try not to do it around her, and it's really not something I say all the time, but I've still managed to screw up.
I'm not asking anybody to change (unless you're around my kids which none of you are), I just don't get the "woe is me, walking on eggshells" aspect of it. Do you really swear so constantly that it is unimaginable to turn it off for an afternoon?
Unimaginable? No. It simply means I have to consciously think about what I say EVERY. SINGLE. SENTENCE. It takes energy. It means I won't be able to relax. You wouldn't have that problem, but everyone else is not you, and you don't get priority because you don't like to hear it. As long as your only solution to the conflict of interest is "that is no problem, just don't swear, it doesn't even take effort to do it", I am not going to see any reason to adapt to your wishes. If you were ready to ask me politely, taking care not to tell me in front of others, ignore the ones that do get through, and acknowledge that it takes a sincere effort for me, we'd have a better position to get to an agreement.
You swear every single sentence?
No. But if I was going to try not to swear, I would have to think about what I said every single sentence. That is what you don't get: It is part of someone's language, and changing that takes effort, even the parts where you don't swear.
And I do that at work, all the time. It is just tiring, and I don't want to spend my free time doing it too.
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When you're just hanging out with your close friends?
It's not actually a bad idea...
(I do try, though I fail as often as others. :D)Anyway, beyond that, allow me to further discuss some cultural elements, if I may.
"Poop"
"Sex (act)"
These (or rather the words they stand-in for) are, for some strange reason, some of the "strongest" swear-words in my culture. Why? I don't know. Frankly, it's a bit baffling.
That said, I refuse to use them, in any company, because it's a thing that I can do.
And that's ultimately what it comes down to - it is what I can do to make things better for everyone. Not-swearing is a thing that doesn't really bother anyone. Swearing is a thing that bothers some. There is no moral, ethical, cultural, and/or religious (depending on how much you equate or differentiate those things) reason to actively use curse words. There are all of those reasons to not use such language.
To me, that's really all that's needed.
Other people feel differently.
I certainly engage in behaviors that others find unpleasant. Absolutely.
I try to avoid engaging in offensive behaviors in general, where moral/religious/ethical constraints don't require that I do so.
It's up to you whether or not you do.
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My close friends are people I can relax and not have to monitor everything I say around.When you're just hanging out with your close friends?It's not actually a bad idea...
(I do try, though I fail as often as others. :D)
It is quite possibly my upbringing, but I tend to at least attempt self-control no matter who I'm around, regardless of whether or not I'd share every secret I have with them.
My wife, my friends, my family - everyone.
Self-control is, I've found, exceedingly useful.
It does help that, growing up, I had many exceedingly strange ideas pop in my head that I recognized as "that's nonsense" and chose never to vocalize. Hence, I learned self-control through my own absurdity.
On the other hand, despite really, really trying, I was often careless and thoughtless. I always wanted to be nice, but there were many things that I won't, don't, and, despite my best efforts, can't recall. Absent-minded, perhaps, but kind of rude. This is against my will, and something that I struggle with. (Also, I've completely come to depend on my wife for helping me remember pretty much any date whatsoever.)*
* ((And don't even think about getting me to learn names. I will say your name a dozen times, to your face, walk away, write it down, and entirely forget it and have managed to lose my note with it by the time I've woken the next morning. Uuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrgggg. Hate that. It took me two years to learn the names of most of my next-door neighbors. >.> I've only remembered one person's name after meeting her once, and I married her. I introduce myself as "Hello, my name is [redacted], and I am terrible at names, and I'm sorry: so terrible, I guarantee that I won't remember your name next time I see you. So please, when we see each other again, just point at yourself, say, "My name is [insert name here]!" and I'll be all, "Hey, [insert name here]! Thanks!" and it will go much better for us all. (:D)" It saves a lot of time and confusion.))
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Yeah I'm pretty much 100% with Lazar and Tactics here.
And the reason is pretty simple: because my friends are the ones I actually care what they think about me, so I do my best to give a good impression every time.
Some random passerby on the street or, more so, somebody I actively dislike or want to avoid, I'm far less likely to police my behavior around (even if my variant of "unpoliced" is incredibly tame compared to... well, the vast majority of people here), because their reactions or opinions of me are utterly irrelevant. I couldn't care less what some random nobody on the street thinks about me.
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On Cuss Words
"There are no bad words; only bad thoughts and bad intentions."
-- George Carlin
On Topic
"I drank your milkshake. I drank it up!!!
--Daniel Plainview, There Will Be Blood
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The problem with Carlin's idea is that then literally anything you say is perfectly okay as long as you mean it in jest. Considering words have actual meanings and some people attach great significance to those meanings, he is fundamentally incorrect. Words are used as a form of communication. If you communicate something hurtful, even on accident, you are still being hurtful and should change.
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I was wondering why this thread died when we reference it so often.
Then I remembered.
It got really boring.
I TAKE IT BACK
GO BACK TO THE ASPERGERS TALKTHIS IS WORSE
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...I won't, don't, and, despite my best efforts, can't recall. Absent-minded, perhaps, but kind of rude. This is against my will, and something that I struggle with. (Also, I've completely come to depend on my wife for helping me remember pretty much any date whatsoever.)*
* ((And don't even think about getting me to learn names. I will say your name a dozen times, to your face, walk away, write it down, and entirely forget it and have managed to lose my note with it by the time I've woken the next morning. Uuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrgggg. Hate that. It took me two years to learn the names of most of my next-door neighbors. >.> I've only remembered one person's name after meeting her once, and I married her. I introduce myself as "Hello, my name is [redacted], and I am terrible at names, and I'm sorry: so terrible, I guarantee that I won't remember your name next time I see you. So please, when we see each other again, just point at yourself, say, "My name is [insert name here]!" and I'll be all, "Hey, [insert name here]! Thanks!" and it will go much better for...
...I don't feel drunk...
I don't remember posting under this user name.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just came to this thread to make fun of some guy drinking some other guy's milk and honestly I'm feeling so attacked right now.
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I just came to this thread to make fun of some guy drinking some other guy's milk and honestly I'm feeling so attacked right now.
Aww, don't feel that way. We just...
Get 'em! Get 'em now!
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For a truly epic thread, join two epic memes together, into one super-thread.
"Was it right that I was kicked out of the group, for eating the host's marzipan?
It's not my fault; I couldn't read the label, and wouldn't have known what it was, even if I had."
Can someone enlighten me in regards to the other meme?
The start of the marzipan meme
It still gets a chuckle, from my circle, but then, we extend the life of the meme, on the all-too-rare occasions when I get to game with the scenario author involved. Because he loves to have socially-awkward situations with dangerous lunatics. Like getting an 'offer we can't refuse' from the local mob boss, while playtesting something for Rite Publishing. "I ain't goin to no party, less they have ****in marzipan!"
And somehow, someone always ends up having a conversation with a pig, but that's another matter...
For a truly epic thread, join two epic memes together, into one super-thread.
"Was it right that I was kicked out of the group, for eating the host's marzipan?
It's not my fault; I couldn't read the label, and wouldn't have known what it was, even if I had."Can someone enlighten me in regards to the other meme?The start of the marzipan meme
It still gets a chuckle, from my circle, but then, we extend the life of the meme, on the all-too-rare occasions when I get to game with the scenario author involved. Because he loves to have socially-awkward situations with dangerous lunatics. Like getting an 'offer we can't refuse' from the local mob boss, while playtesting something for Rite Publishing. "I ain't goin to no party, less they have ****in marzipan!"
And somehow, someone always ends up having a conversation with a pig, but that's another matter...
Thanks. Not only did you enlighten me, it also gave me a good laugh.
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The problem with Carlin's idea is that then literally anything you say is perfectly okay as long as you mean it in jest. Considering words have actual meanings and some people attach great significance to those meanings, he is fundamentally incorrect. Words are used as a form of communication. If you communicate something hurtful, even on accident, you are still being hurtful and should change.
This.
Though frankly, this is far from the first thing I disagree with Carlin on. Granted, I also don't think the guy is near as funny as the internet would have you believe. To me he just comes off as brash and insulting rather than amusing. The only places I've found him occasionally funny are when he's in movies, like in Dogma.
The problem with Carlin's idea is that then literally anything you say is perfectly okay as long as you mean it in jest. Considering words have actual meanings and some people attach great significance to those meanings, he is fundamentally incorrect. Words are used as a form of communication. If you communicate something hurtful, even on accident, you are still being hurtful and should change.OTOH, it's rarely the actual meanings of the words that are the problem. If it was, then euphemisms wouldn't be acceptable. It's the actual words themselves.
To an extent, yes. To an extent, no.
Calling somone by the color of their skin is acceptable. Calling someone a racial slur, even if you mean it only in a friendly way (and I know people who do this of several different ethnicities*) is not.
Further, in some cases, euphamisms are acceptable, because the exact meanings of those euphamisms change.
Either way, this gives more credence to the power of words as words, rather than the "intention" because different people have different reactions. What this means is that a word has no inherent power - i.e., it's not magical - but it certainly has power (a power that differs for different people and different situations), and denying that is naive at best.
* I have told some of them how unacceptable their speech is. This is totally reasonable to them until they get around their friends who speak the same way.
The problem with Carlin's idea is that then literally anything you say is perfectly okay as long as you mean it in jest. Considering words have actual meanings and some people attach great significance to those meanings, he is fundamentally incorrect. Words are used as a form of communication. If you communicate something hurtful, even on accident, you are still being hurtful and should change.
There is absolutely something to be said of being considerate of others. Some people have personal reasons to be sensitive to certain words, such as LazarX; and some words have been used against entire groups of people, thus truly warranting consideration as 'bad words.'
But four-letter words that society has arbitrarily categorized as 'bad words' for the sake of having bad words? Those are just society-imposed emotional pressure-points. Which I get; I was sensitive to cuss words when I was a kid. But then I went to college, met new people, discovered comedians, and realized that life is better after being desensitized to harmless words.
And it's not like I cuss a blue-streak now, or can't access my 'clean language mode' for an interview or whatever. I'm just not shocked when someone drops a "F$$! yeah, nat 20!" anymore, and I base my language use on my own judgment rather than which words my mother doesn't like.
This is why I support everyone making friends with a 'sailor' or two, or watching a few colorful comedian routines. For those who don't like GC, there have been plenty more since his career took off. :)
Heh, I was about to edit my above post, before realizing you'd made a follow-up one. One thing that I was going to clarify is that I wasn't trying to entirely disagree with you here, merely clarify and expand upon what was being said, as well as show a nuanced disagreement about degree and form. Which you've now partially covered! :D
I was thinking more of obscenities. "s&&~" is bad. "poop" isn't.
Ah, I follow now. And, yes, I agree that it's like I've said above - there are some terms that are just baffling that they're bad, while other terms are, more or less, accepted as part of the parlance.
Though even with racial slurs, it's interesting that many of them started out as euphemisms for then impolite terms, then became less polite because they were used to insult.
This is very true, though, by way of example of the former, the "F-word" (as it were) is noted to have been vulgar since the late 1500s at least, and is questionably vulgar for a hundred years before that. It's really hard to know if it, as an independent word, was ever not-vulgar. Which, again, is interesting.
(It's actually a weirdly fascinating and exceedingly interesting linguistic study, if entirely unpleasant and annoying. The Australian village, however, is hilarious.)
I also tend to group all words that are problematically offensive to a significant group of people as "obscenities", whether racial or ethnic slurs, hate speech, blatantly sexist comments, curse words, or the like, as there is a great deal of overlap between them and they are, for the most part, generally all seen as obscene.
This is why I support everyone making friends with a 'sailor' or two, or watching a few colorful comedian routines. For those who don't like GC, there have been plenty more since his career took off. :)
Been there, done all of that.
Still where and who I am. :D
This is why I support everyone making friends with a 'sailor' or two, or watching a few colorful comedian routines. For those who don't like GC, there have been plenty more since his career took off. :)
We'll have to agree to disagree, then. I've spent plenty of time around these sort of people, and as I said before - I'm sure they're fine people to those who like that sort of thing, but they're not the kind of person I want to spend time around.
I like Carlin in limited doses.