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I will never ever respect low self imposed tolerance levels. When one is certain age it comes across as being social awkward.I don't go out of my way to avoid someone that lets slip the occasional profane word or two, but if I call that person friend, and that person claims to call me friend as well, yet that person just refuses to even try and make a sincere attempt to avoid using profanity around me, I have to wonder... As I do my best to not do something that I know offends or annoys the people I call friends, no matter how small or insignificant I personally see the action.
^ This thing. Again. :D
EDIT 1&2: Well, ^ that just looks kind of stupid, now that I'm at the top of a page... HAH! Now no one will ever know that I just wrote words and a carrot, that looked dumb hanging out by itself! ... wai-!
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I don't go out of my way to avoid someone that lets slip the occasional profane word or two, but if I call that person friend, and that person claims to call me friend as well, yet that person just refuses to even try and make a sincere attempt to avoid using profanity around me, I have to wonder... As I do my best to not do something that I know offends or annoys the people I call friends, no matter how small or insignificant I personally see the action.
Well I would do the same. The trick is to let them know. Too often it's assumed that for example a person who swears should know ahead of time that it bothers someone. If I was your friend I would make a effort not to swear. Not telling me anything and assuming I will figure it out is not the best way to go about it imo.
The reason why I say it can be social awkward is the context. Among friends sure profanity and cursing can be kept to a minimum. In a public place like a bar or a sport event. One can ask for less profanity. One will simply be ignored. Or depending on the area and the mood of the person get into a fight.
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In a public place like a bar or a sport event. One can ask for less profanity. One will simply be ignored. Or depending on the area and the mood of the person get into a fight.
Probably true. It's one of the main reasons I don't go to those sorts of places.
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I have no idea what that is.
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If I am expected not to use profanities so that I do not annoy others, they will have to inform me of it (which in itself would go a long way toward convincing me not to associate with them more than absolutely necessary), and they would also need to respect any preferences I have, such as not listening to anything dealing with a person's religion, faith or spiritual feelings without putting them up for criticism or debate. I am a kind person, but I have a job that requires great care in how I express myself (not just regarding profanities). It takes its toll, and I absolutely don't want to spend my free time watching my tongue as well. Doing so wrings me out. When someone comments on it, I will be extremely clear that I WILL not adapt to their preferences. Some have given up on me because of that - I consider that a good measurement of their interest in spending time with me.
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I have no idea what that is.
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Some have given up on me because of that - I consider that a good measurement of their interest in spending time with me.
I'd say it is, and I'd say it's not a bad thing - either for you or for them.
What's more, while profanity is the issue at-hand, I'd be willing to go so far as to note the same is true for any number of things that people feel the need to use to "be themselves" - this is the fundamental part of what a "personality clash" is all about.
To my mind and experience, much like Orthos', I've consistently been introduced to profanity by way of people who have no self-control, verbally. This makes it look like exactly that thing: a lack of self-control or maturity. It doesn't mean it is that thing, just that, due to my formative experiences, it looks like it. This, obviously, clashes with others'. Hence, if we want to hang out together, one, the other, or (preferably) both of us should alter the way we comport ourselves.
This is basic human decency.
If neither of us can or will change, then we simply shouldn't hang out together. There is nothing wrong with that, sad as it may be.
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If neither of us can or will change, then we simply shouldn't hang out together. There is nothing wrong with that, sad as it may be.
Pretty much this. There are a great many people on these forums (and elsewhere, by extension) who I'm sure are wonderful people in their own way... that I simply don't want to spend any time around, for one reason or another, because the experience would not be pleasant for one or for all of us.
I have no idea what that is.manspreading
Thanks!
I now know what that is! (Also, yes: SUPER hard! :D)
Now, given that...
Is this the gamer "manspreading" thread?
... what does this mean? I'm sorry. I'm sleep-deprived, and not quite getting the angle you're applying this to. I'd like to understand, however!
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Indeed. It's part of being human. You'll never get along with everyone. And, even though written text can help you get closer to someone, it never matches actually meeting them. If more people truly understood this, many things would be easier.
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I have no idea what that is.manspreadingThanks!
I now know what that is! (Also, yes: SUPER hard! :D)
Now, given that...
Is this the gamer "manspreading" thread?... what does this mean? I'm sorry. I'm sleep-deprived, and not quite getting the angle you're applying this to. I'd like to understand, however!In olden days, manspreading would not be a thing because men were conditioned to be polite, yield seats to ladies or at the least not take up more than one seat. Instead nowadays there is a vocal group arguing that it's their God-given right to spread across three seats to protect their "man parts". Although it's my judgement that the human race would be better off if most of them were removed from the gene pool.
Similarly, I find it shocking that in this thread just how appalling lacking are many folks are in basic civility, and how some seem to have been either totally raised without manners, or simply glory in that lack of them. Some seem determined to cling to that subhuman stereotype about gamers that the rest of us have been trying to prove is utterly wrong.
let's not get into this argument here.
<snip> I find it shocking that in this thread just how appalling lacking are many folks are in basic civility, and how some seem to have been either totally raised without manners, or simply glory in that lack of them. <snip>
In this, I entirely tend to agree with you. :)
For me, it's a combination of being polite and sensitive to others (for offensive words in general), and of religious blasphemy and vanity (in the case of a great many swear words in general).It's not so much a case of someone expressing their extreme duress and pain (which is entirely understandable) but expressing it through using what amounts to "You and your religious faith - and especially the single most important Person - are the method through which I express everything I hate." which, you know, is really unpleasant.
I don't hold it against people, because it's impossible to avoid, culturally. I do find an extreme displeasure at the cultural context that makes it acceptable and even expected in many cases.
Swear words are, in the end, just words. But their use, meaning, and implications, just like any words, are important and must be cautiously applied to given situations.
Using someone's name or title as a method of expressing anger or displeasure is unpleasant. Hence.
I generally see invoking God or Jesus as exclamations as the opposite, religiously based and not attempts at blasphemy. People call out to God or their saviour in extremes out of awe or as a call for help. Even when done in anger the attempt is to invoke the divine to witness a wrong, not to curse the divine and mock the religious.
I have no idea what that is.manspreadingThanks!
I now know what that is! (Also, yes: SUPER hard! :D)
Now, given that...
Is this the gamer "manspreading" thread?... what does this mean? I'm sorry. I'm sleep-deprived, and not quite getting the angle you're applying this to. I'd like to understand, however!In olden days, manspreading would not be a thing because men were conditioned to be polite, yield seats to ladies or at the least not take up more than one seat. Instead nowadays there is a vocal group arguing that it's their God-given right to spread across three seats to protect their "man parts". Although it's my judgement that the human race would be better off if most of them were removed from the gene pool.
Similarly, I find it shocking that in this thread just how appalling lacking are many folks are in basic civility, and how some seem to have been either totally raised without manners, or simply glory in that lack of them. Some seem determined to cling to that subhuman stereotype about gamers that the rest of us have been trying to prove is utterly wrong.
As I think I noted in that other thread, it's not new. Just a catchy new name and a new twist to it.
I don't really believe in the olden days when everyone was civil and polite.
Holy crap that is the most racist muppet of all time.
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So you are you that deluded that you did the community some public service by necroing it?I was wondering why this thread died when we reference it so often.
Then I remembered.
It got really boring.
Thread necromancy is its own reward!
*Swishes cape*I am needed elsewhere.
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Here's the deal on manspreading, 85% of the photos ever shown are BS. They aren't dudes just lettin it hang out with reckless abandon. They are the result of terribly designed seats that are too narrow to begin with.
1) take a chair and saw the legs so that when you sit in it, your knees are 4 or more inches above your waist with your feet flat on the floor.
2) saw the back legs two more inches.
3) sit in the chair and watch what happens to your legs.
Public transportation seating is designed terribly. If you want people to stay in their slots then build taller seats that don't dump you backwards into them.
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I swear crazymuch. It's a habit I picked up from my fellow gringos in Chile, as well as from things like Homestuck. At this point, swearing is just part of my style of humor.
I do try to moderate myself around others, though. I don't think I've ever sworn in front of a non-family member who wasn't comfortable with it.
Let's not go back into the whole manspreading thing. At least not here. I only threw that link in for the (50s?) poster about the same thing, just to counter the "back in the day when everyone was polite" nonsense.Here's the deal on manspreading, 85% of the photos ever shown are BS. They aren't dudes just lettin it hang out with reckless abandon. They are the result of terribly designed seats that are too narrow to begin with.
1) take a chair and saw the legs so that when you sit in it, your knees are 4 or more inches above your waist with your feet flat on the floor.
2) saw the back legs two more inches.
3) sit in the chair and watch what happens to your legs.
Public transportation seating is designed terribly. If you want people to stay in their slots then build taller seats that don't dump you backwards into them.
Fair enough. I'll make an OTD post later tonight.
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Yeah, it needs all the space it can take.
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I saw this thread title and upon clicking on it was prepared to ask if the OP and drank their milk.....only to find it a thread from 2 years prior.
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CRY HAVOC! And let's slurp the milk of WAR!
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To the OP: you weren't a bad guest, until you could not follow the hosts simple requests. Then you most certainly were a bad guest.
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I generally see invoking God or Jesus as exclamations as the opposite, religiously based and not attempts at blasphemy. People call out to God or their saviour in extremes out of awe or as a call for help. Even when done in anger the attempt is to invoke the divine to witness a wrong, not to curse the divine and mock the religious.
It can be, but it is often exactly not that.
Especially when you command Him to condemn something to eternal fires (pretty much the worst thing you could desire for anything) because you... stubbed your toe.
This especially flies directly in the face of His request on how to handle His Name and Person. Definitely not polite.
Again, it's not always cut-and-dried, as you point out. And, as I said, despite the fact that I find it pretty terrible, it's not something I hold against any individual. It's still a thing, and it's a culturally accepted (and expected) idea that those who have no idea about, interest in, or reverence for God, His Son Jesus, or anything related to the Jewish or Christian religions to utilize those elements to express their displeasure about what is, in the end, a minor nuisance, or, worse, in order to be "edgy" or "hardcore".
This is not some separated-from-reality presumption on my part. Having lived in a large host of places, around a large host of people (all of whom I try to respect), which have many, many different views from my own. While I dislike aspects of their presented character, I like some of them, regardless; others I was around because I was in college and they were too inebriated to be allowed to drive or even walk far on their own (near, as they were, to passing out) and too foolish to go back to their dorms. Others were in professional workplaces or public meeting locations. Some are as you say (this especially tends to be true among Catholic groups) while a large number of others - in my experience the vast majority of others - have no religious inclination or desire whatsoever. A few, such as a notable character from a different forum that I frequent, actively worships an entity that purports to be the foe of my own God, and uses such language as a casual part of her everyday speech and posting.
Hence, it cannot be all placed under a singular umbrella, but the vast preponderance of my experience pushes the ideas that it is vulgar (in the modern usage, as opposed to the older and original one), needless, and entirely profane; generally a sign of both disrespect and/or immaturity. A great amount of experience has informed this idea. While I accept that there is a difference elsewhere, it is a purposeful cognitive dissonance on my part to look past a trait that has been repeatedly shown to be most often caused by a character flaw.
It does not make a person a bad person.
It is most often (in my experience) associated with unpleasant traits due to a huge array of cultural reasons.
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Similarly, I find it shocking that in this thread just how appalling lacking are many folks are in basic civility, and how some seem to have been either totally raised without manners, or simply glory in that lack of them. Some seem determined to cling to that subhuman stereotype about gamers that the rest of us have been trying to prove is utterly wrong.
Where is this coming from. I was raised with manners. I'm willing to accomdate another person if my behavior bothers them. I'm not going to bend over backwards either. I don't curse as a sailor. I admit to sometimes swearing and cursing under stress or injury. But I can't be around someone who with a simple swear word is offended on a regular basis. I want to relax when I'm with friends or family. Not constantly worry about what I say and having to tiptoe on eggshells. If I can't do that then I'm simply not interested in hanging out with that kind of person. Most people won't either imo.
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I just don't see how it takes so much effort not to swear.
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I just don't see how it takes so much effort not to swear.
Maybe you should try an experiment. Have a friend quietly observe you for a few sessions, jotting down expressions you use frequently. Then spend the rest of the campaign not using them under threat of being kicked out.
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I just don't see how it takes so much effort not to swear.
It's not so much the effort. So much as having to worry if any word is offensive to a person. I actually got told at work "buddy language" after saying the word dammit. I had just banged my elbow into the wall. One can also say is it that hard to actually stomach a swear word or two as well.
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I just don't see how it takes so much effort not to swear.
For me, as I have stated in this and other threads before, I was not always a Christian, and using profanity was a part of my daily language, my mannerisms, etc.
It took a concerted effort on my part to change that, to change the way I spoke; and to this day, it is one of my struggles as a Christian (though thankfully, I usually "catch myself" before I say something profane, but not always - as The Good Lord knows, I am not perfect).
Preacher had a neat view of swearing. Preacher had a neat view of a lot of things, really. =)
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I just don't see how it takes so much effort not to swear.Maybe you should try an experiment. Have a friend quietly observe you for a few sessions, jotting down expressions you use frequently. Then spend the rest of the campaign not using them under threat of being kicked out.
I don't know... If swearing is such a deeply ingrained behavior that you simply cannot control yourself, then it will probably cause problems in other areas of your social interactions.
-Skeld
Edit: what I mean by the above is that swearing can be situationally dependent; there are times it's more socially acceptable than other times and that's dictated not only by the setting but by the audience as well. Swearing in the wrong setting and/or audience can leave others with the impression that the swearer lacks self-control. Whether or not it's ok for others to make those types of judgements is another topic.
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Especially when you command Him to condemn something to eternal fires (pretty much the worst thing you could desire for anything) because you... stubbed your toe.
I am sorry, but the IKEA coffee table leg deserves it.
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I just don't see how it takes so much effort not to swear.Maybe you should try an experiment. Have a friend quietly observe you for a few sessions, jotting down expressions you use frequently. Then spend the rest of the campaign not using them under threat of being kicked out.I don't know... If swearing is such a deeply ingrained behavior that you simply cannot control yourself, then it will probably cause problems in other areas of your social interactions.
-Skeld
Edit: what I mean by the above is that swearing can be situationally dependent; there are times it's more socially acceptable than other times and that's dictated not only by the setting but by the audience as well. Swearing in the wrong setting and/or audience can leave others with the impression that the swearer lacks self-control. Whether or not it's ok for others to make those types of judgements is another topic.
The point is - what polite society calls profanity is part of the vernacular in some parts of society. People who think it's easy to change the way others speak have probably never tried it themselves.
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Use to curse a lot, had kids, now I don't.
Love to debate politics, DM doesn't, I don't discuss politics when I game.
Neither required what I would call "effort."
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I'm on Sissyl's side on this, though I may be well beyond her on her side.
I actively enjoying swearing. I enjoy well crafted utterances of anger and irritation. Of course, I am fascinated by language–it's my life's work–and my favorite deadly sin is wrath, so...
It is important to be able to shift registers, but I think condemning a person for occasionally slipping back into a casual register is a far worse sin than is the register shift itself. This is especially true since "swear words" aren't objective, even within a specific group. Some families in the church in which I grew up considered crap to be a swear word, while others didn't. Some English speakers consider jeez to be blasphemous. Demanding your interlocutor conform to your linguistic style without careful explanation leaves them in a mine field, and that's not cool.
Those who say that it isn't a problem not to use swear words miss my point above. I.e.: Whose swear words? Dang, golly, and darn are all consider bad words by some. The average American knows to avoid the big four-letter words in public settings, but knowing what your neighbor will take as offensive can lead you down a pretty labyrinthine path.
It gets really weird when people start claiming that the words themselves have power. My mother once tried to tell me that the "f-word" was inherently wrong, offensive, and sinful–even from the lips of a person who neither knows nor has ever encountered English. Amusingly enough, the Arabic word for "only" sounds, to an English speaker, very close to "f-word it." I suppose that whole part of the world is offending God and nature every time they say "I want the shawarma only...no fries." :-P
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I don't condem those that use foul language, I just don't see it as some unbearable burden to turn it off if it's upsetting someone. Especially if that someone is someone you consider a friend.
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Indeed, if I know someone has a problem with certain words I'll usually respect that (in roughly in proportion to how much I respect that person). Personally I'm more sensitive to tone of voice and body language - after all, a "Bless your heart" can be quite the condescending insult, while a more vulgar version of "you male fowl sucking lover of your most immediate female ancestor" can be an affectionate greeting depending on who says it, and in what manner.
I'm also aware that I should be extra careful when speaking foreign languages, sunce I live in a very secular society where most swears remain religious in origin and as such has lost most of their potency to us. I'm pretty sure even most priests in Sweden would react much to a "Helvete!" ("Hell!")
That said, much as I try to modify my language based on what I know of the people hearing what I say, I also think that if those listening to me don't take what they know of me (such as that bit I mentioned about my first language being one in which most cuss-words have lost their power, leading to me being quite casual about them), that's also pretty disrespectful.
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I guess what I'm trying to say is, judge people more by what they mean to express than by the words they use to express it (with a bit more nuance thrown in - this was the poster version of the statement).
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How we speak has much the same effect as the clothes you wear. It shapes how others see us and how we see ourselves. If you speak like a street ganger then it will have much the same effect around others as dressing as a street ganger. It may be perfect for when you are hanging with a street gang but would likely cost you a job in an interview. Just as speaking in proper business manner will impress at an interview but leave you looking like a sell out to your gang buddies.
I have learned that it is a simple matter to adjust my speech to match the occasion. Think of it like role playing (something we should all be familiar with); if you are at a high society party then you speak with proper enunciation with no trace of any vulgarities and maybe even spruce up your language with a few attractive and witty words... just like the gown and jewelry you are wearing. Become high society in a high society event and you will be well received, change language to match the image you are presenting at the time.
Also it is a bit revealing the language people choose to use when they are being casual. When you are in casual mode you are at your most comfortable this is the closest to the real you.
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I don't condem those that don't like foul language, I just don't see it as some unbearable burden to ignore it if someone is swearing. Especially if that someone is someone you consider a friend.
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I don't condem those that use foul language, I just don't see it as some unbearable burden to turn it off if it's upsetting someone. Especially if that someone is someone you consider a friend.
I don't condem those that don't like foul language, I just don't see it as some unbearable burden to ignore it if someone is swearing. Especially if that someone is someone you consider a friend.
While the second is humorously goofy (and gets it's intended point across, despite its shortcomings as a technique in this situation), both of these fall under:
Hence, if we want to hang out together, one, the other, or (preferably) both of us should alter the way we comport ourselves.
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I don't condem those that don't like foul language, I just don't see it as some unbearable burden to ignore it if someone is swearing. Especially if that someone is someone you consider a friend.
Replace "foul language" with "racist language" and look how ridiculous the argument becomes.
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I think their needs to be a little give and take on both sides imo. If a person who has a habit of swearing is in the presence of someone who does not approve. They should tone it down. That being said if one also decides to hangout with people who do one also has to either learn to accept a certain level of swearing. Or find another group to hangout socially. I don't see why one side has to give or take. Let me tell you . I rather be with a person who I don't have to walk on eggshells constantly in a social context.
Replace "foul language" with "racist language" and look how ridiculous the argument becomes.
Let's be honest here as if you or anyone else would be hanging out with someone who is racist in the first place. Their a huge difference between a few swear words and making comments about a racial group. I wish posters would stop using extreme examples. I have a friend who swears. Perhaps a bit much he is in no way racist.
I think their needs to be a little give and take on both sides imo. If a person who has a habit of swearing is in the presence of someone who does not approve. They should tone it down. That being said if one also decides to hangout with people who do one also has to either learn to accept a certain level of swearing. Or find another group to hangout socially. I don't see why one side has to give or take. Let me tell you . I rather be with a person who I don't have to walk on eggshells constantly in a social context.
Makes sense to me! :D
Hence, if we want to hang out together, one, the other, or (preferably) both of us should alter the way we comport ourselves.
That's what I mean. If two people hang out together - or really have any sort of relationship at all - one, the other or (preferably) both will have to find some sort of change or balance together. It really doesn't matter what the issue is. Most people tend to hang out with those who have (relatively) small differences - small enough to ignore or be unconscious about. Sometimes this isn't the case and more active compromise is necessary. Sometimes people just don't feel like being social with someone who is on one point or another simply too different. None of these are bad, but all should be known and acknowledged. :D
EDIT:
Let's be honest here as if you or anyone else would be hanging out with someone who is racist in the first place. Their a huge difference between a few swear words and making comments about a racial group. I wish posters would stop using extreme examples. I have a friend who swears. Perhaps a bit much he is in no way racist.
Aaaaaaaaaactually, one does not have to be "racist" to use "racist" language. Similarly, most any kind of ethnic or cultural slur. It's why incredibly inappropriate people can, honestly, say, "But I have <X> friends!" (where "<X>" is whatever people group they've casually denigrated by speech in the first place).
It's similar to using the word "gay" to mean "bad".
That's incredibly offensive, and rightly so. (Offensive - sort of - for two reasons, in my case - one it denigrates a people group, and the other it's actively in opposition to the word's actual meaning, which, while much less important, is irritating.)
There are people who are genuine and kind and love people of various ethnicities whose language filters - generally due to age or cultural adaptation - contain little to no boundaries when it comes to certain modes of speech. (I don't just mean old white people talking about other ethnicities, either. The pendulum swings in all directions.)
This is true of all hate speech - some people just fail to grasp the malevolence their words have to others.
We either forgive those people for their good qualities (and attempt to educate them as best as possible, while suffering through their set-in-their-ways habits), or we avoid being with them.
EDITed: to make sense, due to the post I was responding to having additions to it after I'd written my post (but likely before I posted)! :D
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I don't condem those that don't like foul language, I just don't see it as some unbearable burden to ignore it if someone is swearing. Especially if that someone is someone you consider a friend.Replace "foul language" with "racist language" and look how ridiculous the argument becomes.
Replace "foul language," with "to stab me in the eye with a fork," and look how ridiculous the argument becomes.