If you could vote for King\Queen of the realm among all the classes after the campaign is over and you've reached the highest level you wanted to play to, say lvl 15-20, which character class would you think would do the best job and why? Best as in not blow up the world, and generally make the place prosper.
Lets say all classes have leadership, and are optimized for their respective rolls as adventurers.
Each class has its place, so you can include what\where and over whom your voted class would end up ruling.
Side note: Are some alignments simply better suited for rule than others on a large scale? Include the alignment of your voted leader.
Lots of different philosophies on this and I just wanted to see some opinions.
Aristocrat
My apologies.
Edit: What Character Class is best cut out to rule?
Oracle.
Massive Charisma, the social skills are class skill if I recall correctly, and with the right curse can work the sympathy angle from the loyal subjects.
Anything optimized for adventuring is not going to be the best for actually settling down into a regency. That being said, these classes would probably be decent at it: Bard, Paladin, Sorcerer, Oracle and Summoner. Whether or not they want to do it is another question entirely.
wizard and cleric if really optimized for adventures.
otherwise:
rogue horizon walker, has lots of wizards and clerics as coucelors of course.
Takes favourite terrain: urban first, than ALL the others. He'll get insane bonuses inside town, and against all folk from a town (favorite ennemy bonus). Only thing that can seriously endanger his rule is magic as he is as mundane as they come.
edit: any other full spellcaster with high wis/int (or metagaming) will do fine, charisma helps that citizens are happy, but don't help you to mastermind it all.
I like the variety here. I was thinking Sorcerers of particular blood types could end up ruling in some pretty crazy places, the abyss, hell, elemental planes and such :)
I also see wizards going all over the multiverse, setting up their own kingdoms and ruling over the masses with their vast intellects.
High level spell casters can now make their own realms in the astral or ethereal planes through the Create Demiplane spells and can expand them indefinitely, as long as they have the funds so that's a fun option as well.
Just some food for thought.
I like to rap things up and set my Char up somewhere to be a major influence at the end of my characters adventuring career. In my PF group, we always play our characters from 1 - 20, then start again in the same world, (usu many years have passed in the timeline) so its fun to see how our characters have shaped the world from our new characters perspectives.
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I'd say Bard, since some of their archetypes are actually built for that. Sorcerers are good as well, especially certain bloodlines like Destined or Serpantine (since the former would probably give their story some extra fluff for their subjects, i.e. "Our king/queen was chosen by fate to be extraordinary, therefore so will our country" etc.), an Oracle i best for a theocratic government, because their godly visions would probably make them very popular among heavily religious organizations. Rogues can make surprisingly good leaders if charisma based, since they have so many different skill sets, and because Lords Vettinari from Discworld seems fairly effective and i always envisioned him as a rogue. Finally, a Cavalier or Paladin would work for a more militaristic state, like Prussia.
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NG Demagogue Bard with lots of Performance: Oration. It's a class custom built to inspire large groups of people, which is what leaders should do.
AM Barbarian
Fighter and Barbarian would work as potentially good leaders, too, if you had a warrior society (like Nords or Orcs).
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Class has nothing to do with it.
A fighter with Int and Wis as dump stats and a high Cha wouldn't make an eFFeCTIVe leader, but could bully an entire community into following them handily.
Similarly, a cleric w/ low Cha but high Int and Wis can find people to help w/ the Face aspects of leadership, while being a kind and benevolent leader.
Personally I'd see the Fighter the best candidate for that. Not because it has great Charisma or other mechanical reasons for why it should be good at ruling, but because I think the Fighter would be well complemented with such a role, considering its other shortcomings.
In other words, like I think psionics fit the monk in the sense they would complement that class, ruling would complement the fighter.
Then again, the archetypical kings are always knights and generals.
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Personally, I think the three classes best suited would be a Bard, a Paladin, or a Cavalier. Personally, I prefer the Paladin or Cavalier, with slight preference towards the Cavalier (better skills and less tied to a religion) as I think the ideal King is one who could perform feats of arms, lead from the front and inspire not with magic but with actions, personality, and rulership.
I know this was about base classes, but I think the ideal character would be a Bard/Cavalier/Battle Herald. The Battle Herald reminds me of Henry V.
By itself, I don't really like the idea of a bard being a King, because the Bard seems too chaotic personally.
A King would have others working for him: a high priest/spiritual adviser (Cleric), a Marshal/Constable/General (Fighter/Cavalier), a Regent/Chancellor (Wizard I think), perhaps a Master of Spies/Assassins (Rogue) and/or a Fool (Bard). You can get a whole high level party out of a King's entourage.
I remember there was a 3rd party class for 3.5 (can't remember whether it was base or prestige) designed for high ranking aristocrats that I thought was pretty well designed.
Edit* Oh, and I forgot to talk about alignment, since nobody else has been... I think the ideal king is Lawful Good. An executive must enforce the law, for a the government to be just. Likewise, he was temper justice with mercy and fear with love, hence the Good. The best King is one who is both feared by his enemies for his wrath and loved by his subjects for his greatness, wisdom, justice, and generosity.
The great kings of England were warriors, and most of them were loved by their people (with some exceptions). William I, Richard I, Edward I, Edward III, Henry V. Perhaps it is a cultural bias of Anglican tradition, but I think most people expect a great king to be warrior.
Of course, we could just make it simple and say "The one that kills the Linnorm."
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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The important thing about leadership is getting other people to do what you want. Therefore, the relevant skills are Diplomacy (the carrot), Intimidate (the stick), Sense Motive (to be nobody's fool), and Bluff (to be Machiavellian). Various Knowledges are useful, particularly nobility, local, and geography.
As far as class skills, bards get all these. Rogues and inquisitors get most of them. Cavaliers can also get most or all of them. Paladins, oracles, sorcerers, and clerics can get some of them, too.
The trick is getting lots of other people to commit resources on your behalf and being able to punish anybody you can't persuade.
Cleric. Wisdom to make the right decision, Charisma to get others to go along with you, and the ability to kick serious ass when options 1 and 2 fail.
All mental stats are important for a leader, but I think Charisma is the most important. Intelligence would reflect an understanding of how things work, what the problems you face are, and what possible solutions there are. Intelligence is important. Wisdom would determine how good you are at weighing options delivered to you by intelligence. Even more important than intelligence. Charisma represents how good you are at convincing others that your idea is the right one, and how willing others are to follow you. Most important.
A King can't be a dunce, because he has to understand what's going on around him. He needs to have a bit of wisdom, because the decisions ultimately rest on his shoulders. But the King is the figurehead, and the symbol of a nation's greatness, so a high charisma is the most important stat for a King, in my opinion. A King can surround himself with advisers and counselors...people of high intelligence and great wisdom, to present plans and schemes and offer their experience, insights, and wisdom. It is less important that a King be a genius himself, than to be able to judge good advice from bad, and when a course of action has been determined...rally the people around.
Inquisitor.
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The important thing about leadership is getting other people to do what you want. Therefore, the relevant skills are Diplomacy (the carrot), Intimidate (the stick), Sense Motive (to be nobody's fool), and Bluff (to be Machiavellian). Various Knowledges are useful, particularly nobility, local, and geography.
As far as class skills, bards get all these. Rogues and inquisitors get most of them. Cavaliers can also get most or all of them. Paladins, oracles, sorcerers, and clerics can get some of them, too.
The trick is getting lots of other people to commit resources on your behalf and being able to punish anybody you can't persuade.
This.
Bards are probasbly technically best because they get all of them (while others tend to max out at 'most'). And any class can be good if you throw Traits in. I mean, a standard two traits plus the Cosmpolitan Feat and your Barbarian suddenly has Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Knowledge (Local) as class skills.
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For your standard human-centric fantasy Kingdom, I'd say (in no particular order)
Bard: These class features reflect the inspiration of groups, coupled with the varied learning that a noble would be provided. The Bard is a character born of high standing and trained to rule when he comes of age.
Cavalier: Your standard courtly knight, trained in tactics and war. The Cavalier is the type of character that leads an army to take the throne and either grows into the role of King or loses it upon his death (natural or otherwise).
Monk: A Monk as King is practically impossible to assassinate and will have a high enough Wisdom to do the job well. He won't inspire anyone personally, but the country will run like a clock. He'll need someone (preferably multiple someones) to advise him with either a commoner background or a high degree of empathy and he'll frequently make the right choices.
Alignment:
Lawful Good and Neutral Good are the alignments best suited to rule a country; those are, after all, how we all want our own societies to be. Good laws written by good people and enforced by good people.
Lawful Neutral would be ok, but it focuses too much on order. It does, however, give a flexibility to deal with evil that good alignments don't often have. A King who, first and foremost, promised the safety of his subjects could pull off this alignment.
Chaotic Good could work, maybe? It'd have to be a small Kingdom that operated in some kind of benevolent, minarchist way. The King controls the military, his immediate vassals (if he has any) run the police and courts (with the King being the final appeal), and the citizenry basically just sort of living their lives. "Don't Be An Unreasonable A!$@%!&" would be the law of the land. This kingdom would likely be a breakaway society from the LN kingdom mentioned above.
Just to throw this out there: if he wasn't optimized for adventuring, an urban ranger might not be that bad. He could select as Favored Enemy his own and neighboring races, which includes a bonus to Sense Motive and Knowledge-related checks that would stack with things like Skill Focus or Rings of Skill. For the rest, he has skills to spare for areas such as diplomacy.
An animal companion: horse would suit the noble life style, and the mounted combat style would assume him trained in traditional combat. He would be a leader capable of basic hunting and hawking as well.
Being the king is difficult. You have to be smart, cunning, and wise...and you likely aren't leading from the front of the army. Perhaps he might be the most-liked, but he'd be keen-sighted, wise, and cunning to the dangers threatening the kingdom.
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Inquisitor, with the conversion inquisition. You will have very high diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, and just as important, sense motive. The detect alignment ability is a boon as well. The fact that you can focus on all social skills using one score is very helpful. If he needs, an Inquisitor can be very intimidating, adding half his level to the check.
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If you could vote for King\Queen of the realm among all the classes after the campaign is over and you've reached the highest level you wanted to play to, say lvl 15-20, which character class would you think would do the best job and why? Best as in not blow up the world, and generally make the place prosper.
Lets say all classes have leadership, and are optimized for their respective rolls as adventurers.
Each class has its place, so you can include what\where and over whom your voted class would end up ruling.
Side note: Are some alignments simply better suited for rule than others on a large scale? Include the alignment of your voted leader.
Lots of different philosophies on this and I just wanted to see some opinions.
Wizard. Wizards are arguably the best rulers you can get. Springs from their Intelligence and capabilities. By 15th-18th level a wizard will have a truckload of knowledge skills, and if only by virtue of Intelligence modifier alone would be capable of devising solid plans for a kingdom based on mathematical and philosophical theory (for the purposes of laws and policies, for example).
As a wizard, you can govern things closely. Simulacrum can create 7th-10th level copies of yourself that you can spread out to work on certain tasks as needed. Assign one to managing community development, another for cultural development and education, another for managing taxes and treasury, another to law enforcement, another to oversee your military (possibly one for each branch), and several of them to deal with national security and shady business such as spying. Each is unquestioningly loyal, and willing to die for your cause in a fanatical way.
For security, wizards are unmatched. Besides the ability to make some very impressive magic traps to defend your base of operations, you also have access to spells like private sanctum, which prevents any sort of magical spying; which is ideal for avoiding both assassination attempts and for planning for things like war.
In terms of governing a people, a wizard has the potential to rule with both an iron fist and with great fairness. Wizards can directly address the needs of a kingdom, and are capable of solving many natural problems that plague kingdoms; such as famine or drought. They are powerful enough that they can force the populace to do what is best for the good of everyone if needed, but smart enough to win the people over with results and perks.
AM Barbarian
Destined to wear the jeweled crown of Aquilonia upon a troubled brow.
Cavalier is one of the best, seeing as how they get all the social skills and extra ones. They usually have an okay CHA score (12-14) and have the physical prowess to lead from the front. They've got buffs for allies and have more tactical prowess than Bards. Making them more capable of leading.
Bards get good charisma/social skills, but they're not exactly shining examples of paragon. Although they CAN inspire those around them, they don't look like the Cavalier imo.
Paladins are also very good, similar to Cavaliers, but on foot, and more like a Cleric. But using their Charisma.
I'm tempted to include the Witch-King Ashiel in my campaign setting now. :D
*eyes light up* Reawy? Q.Q
Problem is... Wizards tend to make lousy rulers because they lack in the most important skills... People management. They also tend become focused on matters of research and quickly grow bored tending to more mundane details of running a kingdom.
*facepalm* Do you even read my posts? They have simulacrums of themselves that they can delegate the annoying things to, and only need to step in when it is something extreme.
Also, I don't know what you mean by people skills. A wizard king at 15th+ level is more than capable of sporting an 16-18 Charisma and 15+ ranks in social skills, without going outside of stuff that he is capable of doing with his own spells and item creation feats. EDIT: That's assuming the wizard tanked Charisma to 7 at 1st level.
They tend to fall more natually into an advisor role, frequently in service to a well established Aristocrat. Evil Wizard rulers in particular tend to treat their subjects as fodder.... or material for experimentation.
I appreciate you shunting your preconceptions about what a wizard should or should not be, and bringing alignment into this; since any despotic evil ruler will treat their subjects as fodder or experimental material (just like some rulers have tested weapons on their subjects).
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It depends quite a bit on the system of government, the current political situation, and the most popular philosophies among the society. For instance, bards, paladins, and even cavaliers would work well for the stereotypical medieval fantasy setting. Wizards would work well, particularly in some sort of counsel in any society primarily focused on cleverness. Clerics are the obvious choice for a theocracy whereas barbarians or druids would easily fit into a more tribal society. It all boils down to the specifics.
I think...
- A paladin or cavalier would work best as a holy crusader type of ruler.
- A barbarian or fighter is most cut out to be a savage warrior ruler.
- A rogue is best for the ruler that manipulates to stay in power
- A bard is best for traditional monarchy/nobility rule.
- An oracle is best for the spiritual/country-saving ruler who can see the country's problems before others would.
- A wizard or a witch is best set to rule your generic evil nation or fiendish nation. (Sorry witch & wizard, that's just how I see it.)
- A necromancer wizard or an evil cleric is best for the local nation of undead.
- An inquisitor is best to rule in a big-brother type of scenario
- And an alchemist would be best for a heavily eccentric population (perhaps a city-state rather than an entire large nation).
You seem to think that simulacra are some kind of fully functional people. They're not. Wizards can't program their simulcra with skills that they themselves don't tend to develop.
Nope. But then again, they don't have to. Wizards have tons of skills by virtue of Intelligence. A 15th level wizard can easily be sporting a 26 Intelligence without magic items. That's a whopping 10 skill points per level, 11 if human. That's 11 skills the wizard can max out at 15 ranks per skill if desired. That's enough to cover everything they need to rule a country in addition to the stuff they need for adventuring.
But simulacrums ARE fully functional people. In fact, most people won't notice that there is anything strange about a simulacrum. They cannot gain levels or anything of the sort, but that doesn't stop them from being 7th-10th level characters and all that it entails. Having a 10th level character with a diverse skill set overseeing each aspect of your kingdom sounds like a fine plan.
I've seen how people ACTUALLY build wizards on these boards here. They tend to be very powerful researchers and battlefield controllers, but their people skills still lack far behind those of the more social classes.
As I said, 15+ Charisma at that level. Not counting stuff like magic items that give you huge bonuses to Charisma related things. Plus of course the skill points (literal people skills). Or the fact that you basically have super-high Charisma angels on call via summoning spells to deal with stuff for you if desired. Even if the Wizard had the social skills of a newt, he could call up something like an astral deva to make a 2 minute long speech for him, and explain his policies to the public.
"I've never been very good with words...so I've asked Isthael the Radiant, guardian of the heavenly realm, to explain everything and say a few words for us. Elo?"
Isthael - *reads off the cue cards* "Good people of Wizardly Utopia..." *glimmers with radiance and 23 Charisma* "Your leader has asked me to address you..." *addresses with a +25 Diplomacy 'cause CR 14 angels are really articulate and wonderful at getting points across* "...and that is why you should trust in your leader's experience in these troubled times. Does anyone have any questions? I have a few more moments before I have to be leaving. Yes you, in the front row, with the hat...?"
My characterization of evil wizards is just as valid as many others being based on many modules and stories featuring those same wizard type characters acting in...
Who cares about evil wizards, exactly? Nobody asked what class excelled most at being an evil ruler. Just a ruler. Interestingly, wizards make the best evil rulers as well, because loyalty is not a factor in their rule.
I'd vouch for a snake-blooded or fiendish sorcerer with cosmopolitan for social skills. Nothing beats an enchantment focused sorcerer (or enchanter) who can pretend to be an aristocrat. Preferably if he has silent spell. It is very important that such a ruler keep his spellcasting abilities a secret. Otherwise there will be questions about the legitimacy of policies, signed documents, etc. We can't have that now, can we.
Bard, Cleric, Cavalier, or Paladin.
Probably Bard or Cavalier as the most effective, as they have less baggage. Alignment restrictions would tend to interfere with the kind of stuff kings have to deal with. Clerics would be very effective but the thought of a theocracy is really, really scary.
Barbarian/Fighter: Heavy infantry.
Bard: Ruler
Cleric: Healthcare
Druid: Guerrilla warfare
Monk: Stealth Bomber
Ranger: Scout
Rogue: Assassin
Wizard: Nukes
Alchemist: Treasurer
Inquisitor: Tax collector
Oracle: King's Advisor
Summoner: Home Defense
Witch: Food and Drug
