I have posed a few questions to the free crafting crowd on a few subjects (including taking another feat and profiting off of that - poetry), and for the most part, they have bypassed those questions, leading me to believe that the answers would not have helped their case.Actually, I for one had to zip off and only just made it back to my console. Funnily enough, I was giving a friend a lift to the doctors - and strangely, I didn't charge her for the favour. I generally don't charge my friends for helping them out because they are my friends. I know that if the situation were reversed they'd help me out, and in the past they have.
Back on subject:
My argument was that if players take feats and abilities that can help the party, they are generally expected to do so without milking the people who gave of their time and energy to the success of the team for free. Of course if the party have a system worked out where the fighter gets paid per kill, the rogue per trap sprung, the cleric per heal etc. that's all well and good.
It may be a bit metagamey, but the basic argument remains that the player who has invested in crafting feats hasn't invested in feats that save his backside, or take down foes, or otherwise contribute during adventures. As a result, everyone else is going to have to work a bit harder. Compensation is that he can make sure they have cheaper/more bespoke gear to go adventuring with. It's in his own interest to do so, so why would he charge more than cost? It's the way I have always worked crafting characters.
So far I haven't seen anything put up by anyone to convince me this isn't the best way, although I have been amazed at how mercenary some people are in their lives.
100% on point.
People are always arguing that they are such good ROLEPLAYERS instead of ROLLPLAYERS if they argue that their time is worth something.
Yet people to a lot of things in their free time for free.
Also your point with the pricing system is also right on. If I start pricing my feat a) what is worth his skillpoint b) per use?
If you have a fair system for that ride on I say. But in the end everyone will pay each other then and everyone ends up with the same amount of money he started with. So its not really worth doing because you have a lot of work for that system for everyone ending up with the same sum of money and everything that happens is that you drown in a flood of paper on which you note who owes whom how much money.
Lets look at this another way. The chars in the OP were 5th level. 5th level WBL is listed at 10,500. Now if all his money was spent to the crafter to make items for him @10%, the crafter would earn a whopping 1909gp. Yet he increased the party members WBL to essentially 20,999gp.
It truely is worth it to pay the 10%. And like I mentioned, my costs are a gp per day thing, which calculates closer to 5%. Now tell me that it's unreasonable to ask to be compensated for your time and effort into making someone else rich. Even a slave laborer would cost the party 500gp for christs sake, and you expect me to be your slave and do your crafting bidding for free. Completely unreasonable if you ask me.
This is a false choice.
The choice isn't between paying full price from a merchant or paying a greedy magic item character a 10% surcharge.
The choice is between paying a greedy magic item character a 10% surcharge or having a magic item character treat his skills and abilities as part of the party's overall capabilities and providing magic items to party members at cost.
For those of you who say "Well, I'll never take a craft magic item feat if I can't profit from it!"
Fine, you've just told us a great deal about your play style. If you take that attitude, then by all means DON'T TAKE CREATION FEATS! It's better that way.
Lets look at this another way. The chars in the OP were 5th level. 5th level WBL is listed at 10,500. Now if all his money was spent to the crafter to make items for him @10%, the crafter would earn a whopping 1909gp. Yet he increased the party members WBL to essentially 20,999gp.
It truely is worth it to pay the 10%. And like I mentioned, my costs are a gp per day thing, which calculates closer to 5%. Now tell me that it's unreasonable to ask to be compensated for your time and effort into making someone else rich. Even a slave laborer would cost the party 500gp for christs sake, and you expect me to be your slave and do your crafting bidding for free. Completely unreasonable if you ask me.
You want 100gp per day at level 5 while even a DC30 check on a skill is worth 3d6gp (so in average 10.5).
And other feats and skills are worth... 0gp per day. Even if you make a DC50 check.Yeah you are totally reasonable.
It truely is worth it to pay the 10%. And like I mentioned, my costs are a gp per day thing, which calculates closer to 5%. Now tell me that it's unreasonable to ask to be compensated for your time and effort into making someone else rich. Even a slave laborer would cost the party 500gp for christs sake, and you expect me to be your slave and do your crafting bidding for free. Completely unreasonable if you ask me.
Oh I agree, and to be honest it wouldn't bother me that much that I would object, I'd just tease the hell out of the crafter about it at some point when he needs something off my character.
It's just one of those situations like the party rogue pilfering the best bits of the treasure when no-one is looking: it's an unspoken rule that you just don't skim off your mates.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't have any problem with someone taking a magic item crafting feat to profit from it.
But not by profiting from the other party members.
@AD,
I was looking at the 'profession' skill issue from this statement
You could have taken another combat feat and improved your combat effectiveness. You chose instead to take a feat that supposedly benefitted the group in a different way. Now you want to charge me for it?
If it's teamwork all the way, then doesn't this argument apply to Rey in my example?
"You could have taken another set of skills and improved your combat/adventuring effectiveness. You chose to take skills that benefit only you." (Which Craft (Alchemy) in PFS only does). Or worse, if I spent a feat on Skill Focus: Craft (Alchemy)?
Another aside, why is it understandable for the cleric of Adabar to charge but not for a greedy PC (not player!) to do the same? I mean if I'm playing Lafreeze the wizard, and have been a greedy bastard for 4 levels, then take CWI at 5, why should I suddenly get altruistic?
The whole concept disgusts me. It's like a baseball player charging another player to use their bat if the first player's bat breaks. It's just pathetic greedmongering.
If you're going to use a baseball analogy, it would be like the baseball player who's bat broke expecting the other baseball player to fire up his lathe and build him another bat without compensation.
Let's say we have Wizard William with Craft Arms and Armor.
Barbarian Bob wants a 20k sword.
Wizard William says, "Ok I can do that for 11k."
Barbarian Bob agrees and pays the 11k and Wizard William makes the sword.
Barbarian Bob's wealth just went up by 9k because he got a 20k sword for only 11k. That is a 9k profit.
Wizard William's wealth just went up by 1k.
Who is profiteering of of whom here?
But apparently, that is not enough. Bob's wealth must go up but 10k while William's wealth stays flat. Otherwise William is a jerk and making money at the expense of his fellows.
If you really want to be fair about not making any money off each other. William should charge 25% or 5k.
If you're going to use a baseball analogy, it would be like the baseball player who's bat broke expecting the other baseball player to fire up his lathe and build him another bat without compensation.
The whole concept disgusts me. It's like a baseball player charging another player to use their bat if the first player's bat breaks. It's just pathetic greedmongering.
Heh, that made me laugh Grecko. :)
I got an image of Barry Bonds firing up his lathe in the dugout...
Lets look at this another way. The chars in the OP were 5th level. 5th level WBL is listed at 10,500. Now if all his money was spent to the crafter to make items for him @10%, the crafter would earn a whopping 1909gp. Yet he increased the party members WBL to essentially 20,999gp.
It truely is worth it to pay the 10%. And like I mentioned, my costs are a gp per day thing, which calculates closer to 5%. Now tell me that it's unreasonable to ask to be compensated for your time and effort into making someone else rich. Even a slave laborer would cost the party 500gp for christs sake, and you expect me to be your slave and do your crafting bidding for free. Completely unreasonable if you ask me.
You want 100gp per day at level 5 while even a DC30 check on a skill is worth 3d6gp (so in average 10.5).
And other feats and skills are worth... 0gp per day. Even if you make a DC50 check.Yeah you are totally reasonable.
Skills are not as limiting a resource as a feat is. Also, I said I charege 50g or 5%. Like I said, a skilled slave laborer will cost you 500gp.
Completely reasonable. You expecting me to spend resources and time to give you something for free... Unreasonable.
First on the subject of profteering. A mage is NOT going to charge 50 percent to Joe the Merchant, and 60% to his companion Bob the fighter.
There is no reason for him to sell to Joe the merchant he is giving up his time for nothing. He usually would not sell to Joe the Merchant even at 60% because it is not worth his time, but for his friend Bob he makes an exception.
The 10 percent he is charging is covering his "opportunity cost" for doing the work or at least part of it.
The wizard spends 40 days making a Ring of Freedom of Movement for the Rogue. He charges the rogue 22000 instead of the 40000 the rogue would buy it for.
During that 40 days the rogue used his skills and perhaps his leadership feat to make 5k from fencing loot from the guild he formed when teh wizard was crafting for other part members.
So at the end of 40 days the Rogue is +3k (and saved 18k on a ring) and the wizard is +2k.
If instead the wizard had formed an Academy for wizards and started a college of learning he might have due to Tuition and Guest Speaker fees made 5k for himself during that 40 days. That is the opportunity cost the gives up for enchanting for his friends.
Now if all downtime is handwaved and NOONE else gets to do anything in downtime then it might be reasonable for teh wizard not to be compensated. But if people get to do things in downtime and can make other profits in downtime, then it is reasonable to in some small way compensate the wizard (and 10 percent is very small).
You are speaking about House Rules?
Those are AWESOME!
Because per RAW a fighter makes exactly 0gp/day between his encounters.
If you're going to use a baseball analogy, it would be like the baseball player who's bat broke expecting the other baseball player to fire up his lathe and build him another bat without compensation.
The whole concept disgusts me. It's like a baseball player charging another player to use their bat if the first player's bat breaks. It's just pathetic greedmongering.Heh, that made me laugh Gecko. :)
I got an image of Barry Bonds firing up his lathe in the dugout...
I do what I can :) Just trying to lighten the mood on this heated discussion.
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If you're going to use a baseball analogy, it would be like the baseball player who's bat broke expecting the other baseball player to fire up his lathe and build him another bat without compensation.
The whole concept disgusts me. It's like a baseball player charging another player to use their bat if the first player's bat breaks. It's just pathetic greedmongering.Heh, that made me laugh Grecko. :)
I got an image of Barry Bonds firing up his lathe in the dugout...
Funny, whenever I hear lathe, I keep seeing Adam putting a two liter on Jamie's lathe and the inevitable result. :-)
I'm pretty much on board with Adamantine Dragon on this one.
If a PC wanted an item made so they could sell it- then of course, the crafting PC should get part of that commission.
However, when a PC wants something made so they can use it- what they are really doing is asking you *to make the group better*. You chose a crafting feat instead of something to make combat better. They are turning it into a way to make combat better. Maybe a new sword, better armor, boots of haste, or a belt of.. well, you get the idea.
As long as the dude is going to be using that item *to save your arse* then the idea of your charging him is pretty much a jerk move.
If i was a wizard or bard or witch in the party I'd start charging you for everything I cast at you. I'd ask for a retainer up front and use the CRB rules for hiring out spells for guidance on the costs.
For a rogue or fighter or whoever I'd also get a retainer up front for the mooks I keep off your arse, and who I slay while you are piddling around.
And Abadar help you if you die. They are fairly likely to loot you, bury you, say a prayer for your soul in the afterlife and then find a nicer cleric to replace you back in town.
RP'ing your character as a jerk is possible of the DM allows it I suppose, but it'll have actual ingame consequences. Yanno, you are basically pissing off the guys who you are trusting to watch your tail every step of the way for the rest of your character's adventuring life. Is it really worth stealing that 10% off the top?
I know it sounds like I'm goin over the top abit, but this is something that would really, truly irritate me both ingame as someone watching your arse, and as a Player who's supposed to be engaged in a cooperative game.
So tl;dr?
Yes I think you made a gaming group "oops" and should go back and apologize to the group and rescind your idea of swiping 10% off the top.
-S
I have posed a few questions to the free crafting crowd on a few subjects (including taking another feat and profiting off of that - poetry), and for the most part, they have bypassed those questions, leading me to believe that the answers would not have helped their case.Actually, I for one had to zip off and only just made it back to my console. Funnily enough, I was giving a friend a lift to the doctors - and strangely, I didn't charge her for the favour. I generally don't charge my friends for helping them out because they are my friends. I know that if the situation were reversed they'd help me out, and in the past they have.
Back on subject:
I also help out my friends with rides and such.
But none of my friends ask me to do the parging on their house, put in a new fence in their backyard, while I am on vacation, while they go off on vacation, and do not even pay for my food.
I also have to note that you too haven't answered any of the questions that I posed. Any reason why?
If a crafter only uses their crafting feat for themselves and the rest of their downtime is used on research for spells, prayers, etc.. or simply relaxing, is that acceptable to you, as the PC is not "profiteering" on their fellow PC?
If a PC, rather than take a craft feat, but takes skill focus craft poetry, and uses the downtime to write and sell poetry, would you object to the extra income? Even if it was equal or greater than what they would have made by charging that extra 5% on items?
Do you insist that all feats chosen have to be approved by the group and have to benefit the group in some way, shape or form? To me, it seems that you are saying that, as you said that the crafter can either use the craft feat for the group's benefit or to be better in combat.
Out of curiosity, what do your characters do when the crafter is making items for the group?
...This is a case where in-character, in-game rationalizations have run headlong into the meaty wall of unwritten social contract. Of course it is perfectly reasonable for the character presented to charge a fee. But the social contract between players of that group does not allow it. If the players are unwilling to renegotiate the contract, the player's character might suffer, but I seriously doubt that it's worth impacting the cohesion of the group over...
If that is the social contract in that group the OP should have been told about it ahead of time. I can pretty much guarantee in a group that played like that, I would never take a crafting feat, craft/profession skills, or a leadership with a crafting cohort or followers since the group clearly intends to make me their servant if they can.
As I said before, I don't join a fantasy gaming group to play at being the other players factory slave.
I'm pretty much on board with Adamantine Dragon on this one.
If a PC wanted an item made so they could sell it- then of course, the crafting PC should get part of that commission.
However, when a PC wants something made so they can use it- what they are really doing is asking you *to make the group better*. You chose a crafting feat instead of something to make combat better. They are turning it into a way to make combat better. Maybe a new sword, better armor, boots of haste, or a belt of.. well, you get the idea.
As long as the dude is going to be using that item *to save your arse* then the idea of your charging him is pretty much a jerk move.
If i was a wizard or bard or witch in the party I'd start charging you for everything I cast at you. I'd ask for a retainer up front and use the CRB rules for hiring out spells for guidance on the costs.
For a rogue or fighter or whoever I'd also get a retainer up front for the mooks I keep off your arse, and who I slay while you are piddling around.
And Abadar help you if you die. They are fairly likely to loot you, bury you, say a prayer for your soul in the afterlife and then find a nicer cleric to replace you back in town.
RP'ing your character as a jerk is possible of the DM allows it I suppose, but it'll have actual ingame consequences. Yanno, you are basically pissing off the guys who you are trusting to watch your tail every step of the way for the rest of your character's adventuring life. Is it really worth stealing that 10% off the top?
I know it sounds like I'm goin over the top abit, but this is something that would really, truly irritate me both ingame as someone watching your arse, and as a Player who's supposed to be engaged in a cooperative game.
So tl;dr?
Yes I think you made a gaming group "oops" and should go back and apologize to the group and rescind your idea of swiping 10% off the top.-S
This all comes down to discussing it with the group first.. if they have a problem with it, then don't take the feat. If we start going down the path you suggest, then whats stopping the crafter from charging for his spellcasting abilities as well.
Fact is, the crafter invested feats and skills not to mention boat loads of time, to increase the party's wealth. They should return the favor in minimal financial compensation.
Lets look at this another way. The chars in the OP were 5th level. 5th level WBL is listed at 10,500. Now if all his money was spent to the crafter to make items for him @10%, the crafter would earn a whopping 1909gp. Yet he increased the party members WBL to essentially 20,999gp.
This is pretty unlikely to actually be the case. The PC asking to commission the magic item would have to start with just cash. But he's more likely had to sell some gear the PCs have looted in the course of adventuring to get that cash, meaning he's already reduced the wealth the PCs have acquired down from the DM's original calculations.
The main value of the magic item creation feats is to preserve wealth by converting the value of items you have looted but don't want into items of similar value that you do want. As such, it's a nice feature, but hardly one to break WBL guidelines by doubling wealth. It simply doesn't work out that way under normal circumstances.
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How does toughness benefit everyone? Are you serious?
Um... because at 5 hit points I can still cast "fireball" but at -1 hit points I can't. And that fireball I cast just might actually help the party win a fight.
Feats are intended to make a character more powerful in some way. The value to the entire party of combat feats is obvious. The value of metamagic feats to the entire party should also be obvious.
Taking a magic item creation feat means you didn't take one of those feats. So the party is suffering in combat from your choice. Now you want to PROFIT from the party as well for being less effective in combat?
Still didn't hit on Skill Foucs: Perform. ;-)
More seriously, Toughness benefits the character only. That the character is still able to stand up and beat on the bad guys is an indirect effect. If the character's now at 5 HP and not negative 1 and chooses to run away, then the feat only helped him.
Craft magic doodad benefits the crafter *only* He gains the ability to make his own stuff. That he can use the feat to benefit everyone doesn't abrogate the personal benefit.
As others have pointed out, by charging a 10% crafting tax, he already is sharing his feat with everyone and saving them money. If Wally Wizard crafts a +1 sword and charges 1,100 to Fred Fighter, Fred Fighter's benefited by getting a +1 sword and 900 GP. He's choosing to help the fighter, like the character with 5 HP left from toughness is choosing to not run away and regroup.
(Indeed, by the FAQ entry Sean posted earlier, using the feat on another party member skews their WBL, but not the caster's)
Fact is, the crafter invested feats and skills not to mention boat loads of time, to increase the party's wealth. They should return the favor in minimal financial compensation.
Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?
I have posed a few questions to the free crafting crowd on a few subjects (including taking another feat and profiting off of that - poetry), and for the most part, they have bypassed those questions, leading me to believe that the answers would not have helped their case.Actually, I for one had to zip off and only just made it back to my console. Funnily enough, I was giving a friend a lift to the doctors - and strangely, I didn't charge her for the favour. I generally don't charge my friends for helping them out because they are my friends. I know that if the situation were reversed they'd help me out, and in the past they have.
Back on subject:
I also help out my friends with rides and such.
But none of my friends ask me to do the parging on their house, put in a new fence in their backyard, while I am on vacation, while they go off on vacation, and do not even pay for my food.
I also have to note that you too haven't answered any of the questions that I posed. Any reason why?
If a crafter only uses their crafting feat for themselves and the rest of their downtime is used on research for spells, prayers, etc.. or simply relaxing, is that acceptable to you, as the PC is not "profiteering" on their fellow PC?
If a PC, rather than take a craft feat, but takes skill focus craft poetry, and uses the downtime to write and sell poetry, would you object to the extra income? Even if it was equal or greater than what they would have made by charging that extra 5% on items?
Do you insist that all feats chosen have to be approved by the group and have to benefit the group in some way, shape or form? To me, it seems that you are saying that, as you said that the crafter can either use the craft feat for the group's benefit or to be better in combat.
Out of curiosity, what do your characters do when the crafter is making items for the group?
Mist, the first time I responded I assumed that you either didn't read or didn't understand the anti-profiteering argument. Now I have to conclude that you are deliberately refusing to understand the argument.
Take craft poetry and sell all the poems you want. I highly doubt you are going to sell any to your fellow player characters. But maybe so. Would be an awesome poem.
I've already said that selling magic items to merchants is fine. But if you do you're going to sell them AT COST anyway, because the game has been designed to not allow you to make money by crafting and selling magic items to MERCHANTS. So your solution to that is to sell them to your fellow PLAYERS at a higher price than you could sell them to an actual merchant.
And you are defending that behavior?
Whatever... I've said my piece on this. It's a jerk move. It's perfectly acceptable for PCs whose concept includes "jerk."
If I encounter this behavior in a fellow PC, there will be consequences depending on the type of party I am in. At the very least that character will find themselves choosing from a menu of goods and services when they need something from me.
Fact is, the crafter invested feats and skills not to mention boat loads of time, to increase the party's wealth. They should return the favor in minimal financial compensation.
Or simply not use your services and dedicate their collective feats and skills to get the items themselves without the inconvenience of pandering to a profiteering wizard trying to further exploit the crew that he fights and bleeds with.
Mist, the first time I responded I assumed that you either didn't read or didn't understand the profiteering argument. Now I have to conclude that you are deliberately refusing to understand the argument.
Take craft poetry and sell all the poems you want. I highly doubt you are going to sell any to your fellow player characters. But maybe so. Would be an awesome poem.
I've already said that selling magic items to merchants is fine. But if you do you're going to sell them AT COST anyway, because the game has been designed to not allow you to make money by crafting and selling magic items to MERCHANTS. So your solution to that is to sell them to your fellow PLAYERS at a higher price than you could sell them to an actual merchant.
And you are defending that behavior?
Whatever... I've said my piece on this. It's a jerk move. It's perfectly acceptable for PCs whose concept includes "jerk."
If I encounter this behavior in a fellow PC, there will be consequences depending on the type of party I am in. At the very least that character will find themselves choosing from a menu of goods and services when they need something from me
I did actually see and read your posts. I just do not agree with them and I am/was trying to determine where the fine line of difference lies.
As to the poem, I wasn't suggesting selling them to PCs, but to NPCs, for profit, as the rules allow.
I also wasn't suggesting that the crafter sell newly created magic items to an NPC merchant or mercenary or etc.. If I am having trouble with crafting for free for PCs during down time, I can see no reason why a crafter would spend a lot of down time working for free for an NPC merchant.
It may help me to have a clearer understanding if you would answer the questions that I have posed.
Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?
Um. What? Non-Sequitur here. Nobody is required to give 24 hours to anybody in this game.
Btw. where is stated that the character has free time anyway and that not 24 hours are to be devoted to the good of the group?Um. What? Non-Sequitur here. Nobody is required to give 24 hours to anybody in this game.
Where are work day hours defined?
I know that you travel for 8 hours a day.
I know that you craft for 8 hours a day etc. pp.
But where does it tell you that adventurers have FREE TIME?
I'm not going to be a crafting slave.Sure, and I'm not going to be a healbot. Nor am I going to throw my body in front of your greedy face to protect you from harm just for fun.
None of the party are slaves. You took a feat, and because you took a feat you feel entitled to more loot than the party.
That's the bottom line.
You're playing a merchant mercenary, not a team player.
A wizard should charge for crafting, it's completely unfair not to charge. I'd charge 50% that way it's fair.
Lets look at an example. Say we have 8000 in loot. I want a amulet of natural armor +2 and the fighter wants a Sword +2. Both are 8000 gp. While in town we have enough off time for me to create 1 item. I have the feats for creating weapons and wonderous items. I could create my amulet for 4000 gp or the sword for 4000 gp but not both. But being the good party member I am I offer to create the sword for 6000 gp, 2000 GP profit. Then I take my 8000 gp in loot and buy an amulet of Natural armor. In the end I have my amulet and the fighter has his sword and we both have 2000 gp left over.
That seem pretty fair to me.
Now I could decide not to craft the sword and be greedy keeping 4000 gp for myself. Or could craft the sword for cost and have no gold left over and the fighter keeps 4000 gp. Only seems fair that we split the difference have 2000 gp each.
... I know that my experience is that nobody charges in group, nobody expects to be charged in group, and people generally discuss character feat choices in advance of picking them...
Most of the groups I have been in have been extremely independant in PC creation and progression. Some times a player will ask for help in deciding, but their is no joint planning (or at least very little).
That sounds like a two way street and is more reasonable. Does the craft blacksmithing to help the wizard when he's making an amulet? Is the cleric providing some of the spells for item creating to the wizard? Is the with making some useful potions or wands that the wizard can use? An exchange of favors in off time is still a profit for both sides and I would find that perfectly acceptable.
What I was hearing described by many is practically a one way threat. You had better take item creation feats and make stuff for me for free or you are a jerk and I'm kicking you out of the group.
Taking a magic item creation feat means you didn't take one of those feats. So the party is suffering in combat from your choice. Now you want to PROFIT from the party as well for being less effective in combat?
First off the party isn't suffering due to taking a crafting feat. Unless you don't think that all the cool cheap gear doesn't make the party better in combat.
Is increasing each of your party member's wealth by 100 percent per gold spent while not gaining anything and not even getting to use your downtime job fair? Lets say wizard gives Big Dumb Fighter a 10000 gold item for 5000 gold. BDF wealth is now 5000 more than it was before the crafting. That puts the fighter 5000 gold ABOVE the wizard. Tell me how this could POSSIBLY be fair to the wizard. It makes the party members stronger, but the wizard as in game person, and the player as a person get nothing for it directly other than falling quite a bit on party wealth.
Now if the wizard crafts an equal amount of good per party member it could almost be fair for party wealth, but this is seldom how it works. First off it still doesn't count the downtime job the wizard could be doing, it would be a bit strange if the party was effectively only hobo's wandering town to town looking for work and make no money during downtime. They have lives and jobs outside of going on adventures. Then there is the fact that some party members don't actually need much magic gear, and others need constant upgrades (fighting types, they get more from gear upgrades than full casters).
Now some items can be made on adventures, but most wizards don't carry around full labs with all the tools they need to craft wherever they go. I know my wizard couldn't carry a forge with them. Heck the crafting stuff would have a hard time fitting in any of the reasonably priced bags. While making potions and scrolls wouldn't bad to make on the move, making rings, weapons & armor, wonderous items ect. would be nearly impossible to make on the move.
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This is pretty unlikely to actually be the case. The PC asking to commission the magic item would have to start with just cash. But he's more likely had to sell some gear the PCs have looted in the course of adventuring to get that cash, meaning he's already reduced the wealth the PCs have acquired down from the DM's original calculations.
The main value of the magic item creation feats is to preserve wealth by converting the value of items you have looted but don't want into items of similar value that you do want. As such, it's a nice feature, but hardly one to break WBL guidelines by doubling wealth. It simply doesn't work out that way under normal circumstances.
Bill, I'm not sure I agree.
If the party finds/loots 4K of magic items/goods and sells it for 2K, then they can buy that +1 sword for 2K.* If there's a crafter, the party can 'buy' that item for 1K, skewing their wealth by 1000 right off the bat. Now this seems to be taken into account for the crafter, not the rest of the party.
From the FAQ (Thanks Cheepy)
If you're looking at the party's overall wealth by level, you have to count crafted items at their Cost. Otherwise, if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
So if Wally Wizard is crafting for himself, then the wealth bump is (presumed) to be 'paid for' by the feat. When he crafts that cloak of resistance for Thom Thief, or that +1 armor for Freddie Fighter, he's skewing their wealth by level, unless they pay full price for that item, since they're getting the benefits but not 'paying' for the feat.
Or simply not use your services and dedicate their collective feats and skills to get the items themselves without the inconvenience of pandering to a profiteering wizard trying to further exploit the crew that he fights and bleeds with.
Fact is, the crafter invested feats and skills not to mention boat loads of time, to increase the party's wealth. They should return the favor in minimal financial compensation.
The rest of the group which are 4 people who can all craft magic items should take one feat each:
Craft Wondrous Items
Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Craft Rods
Craft RingsAnd pool their production capabilities with each other and don't give anything to the greedy wizard.
Having all crafting feats on separate characters which can spit out armies of magic items in no time while screwing over the group jerk who gets stuck on taking 4 feats himself or having only one type of items?
PRICELESS.
So you would waste other party members resources in an attempt to "get back" at someone you percieve as being a jerk? Quite petty. Besides hows that fighter or barbarian going to meet the caster level req's to take the feat?
Look, the crafter is taking the feats so they don't have to. Reward him for it.
Mist, are these the questions you keep referring to?
If a PC decided to take Skill Focus Craft Poetry, you would object because it doesn't contribute to the party? Even if it fits in with the PC's background and character concept?
As I have said multiple times, profiting from skills by selling products as defined in the CRB to NPCs is fine. I would question the player about this use of a feat, but I am not opposed to it. He may be nerfing his character, but he's not profiteering ME in doing so.
Besides the post battle spells, you have long duration buffs and survival skills. Wizard crafters also cast long duration buffs for the party and if you start charging them for the other buffs (and there are not many that come to mind), then what would you consider a reasonable price?
Since I consider this whole line of discussion repugnant I have never investigated what I would retributively charge a jerk PC for charging me for a +1 sword more than he could sell it to a local merchant. But if I wanted to I could use the CRB guidelines on hiring spellcasters and either use them directly or come up with some pro-rated party discount fee. Point is I would hate to even do it.
I have acknowledged that if the other party members are using their skills to keep the wizard fed and secure, then charging would not be considered appropriate (to me at least). But unless I am mistaken, this is not the case that the OP is talking about.
I have been drawn more into the larger context of charging for crafted items and have left the specific case of the OP behind. In looking at that specific case I consider it to be a case of a party with a jerk PC and I'd respond as I have stated, probably by giving that PC a menu of my prices for my services.
Playing devils advocate a bit here. So, are you saying that the wizard crafter should be charging for teleports, overland flight spells, any safe campsite spells (rope trick, secure shelter, etc..)
If you're charging me for a magic item, then damn right, I'm charging you for a teleport or you can find your own damn ride.
And if the crafter is the healer, what then? what would the abilities that you would charge for, besides possible survival skills?
How much does it cost to hire a level 12 fighter as a bodyguard? How much do spellcasters charge for casting a level 2 spell in town? Etc. etc. etc...
The point is none of of this should even be required, because it's all jerk behavior precipitated by the original jerk.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
"Charging party members for crafting items is directly comparable to charging party members for heal spells, buffs or even charging a party member to take a hit for them...."
No it is not at all comparable. All the wizard's actions while adventuring are comparable to all the barbarian's or cleric's actions while adventuring.
{ If the wizard is not pulling his wieght while adventuring, that is a completely different topic. }
This is out side of the adventure on down time. Is your barbarian doing something for me during his down time that will double the value of my income? If so, then we can exchange that favor instead of the 10% fee. Perfectly fair. Expecting me to be your slave to double your wealth is not fair. THAT is totally jerk behavior.
I'll assume you have at least one co-worker that is good at math. Do you expect him to do all your tax filling, retirement planning, and insurance forms for free? Even if you expect it, does he agree to do it?
I have been in groups that take advantage of the spell casters like you describe. Casters are EXPECTED to take a bunch of item creation feats. Casters are EXPECTED to spend all their free time making magic for everyone else for free. When there was no other option, I played in some of those groups for awhile. I probably wouldn't play a spellcaster in such a group. I certainly wouldn't take any item creation feats in such a group.