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Inner Sea Magic Excerpt: Due to your membership in a spellcasting guild (and Fame score of 35) you gain a +3 bonus to your caster level with one spellcasting class of your choice and a +1 bonus to your caster level with another spellcasting class (up to a maximum of your character level). These bonuses grant you additional spells known and spells per day for your modified caster level. <-- somewhat paraphrased
One of my fellow players just finished making an 8th-level mystic theurge (cleric 3/wizard 3/theurge 2) using the above ability as well as the Magical Knack talent to increase his caster levels.
Currently, he can cast 4th-level wizard spells at CL 8th, and 3rd-level cleric spells at CL 8th.
I personally love it, but he and I are both left to wonder why anyone would ever play a straight wizard up wizard. The only thing he is really missing out on is the 5th-level bonus feat and perhaps some familiar abilities.
Does this strike you as broken? Or just what multi-classed builds like the mystic theurge needed to be viable? We're looking to get outside opinions on the matter.
This also leads to the question: Do all caster level bonuses (such as from magical knack and orange ioun stones) also increase spells known and spells per day like Esoteric Training does? In v3.5, the answer was clearly "no," but Pathfinder (being a different game altogether) seems to lack any such prohibitive rules verbage.
Everyone got monks wrong. Perhaps we got this wrong as well?
Where is this Esoteric Training from?
Hmmm this is the first feat I have ever seen printed for something like this in all of 3.X D&D and am afraid it does indeed cross the threshold of "too good". If they ever make another theurge-like spell caster (arcane heirophant was the big one in the day) you'll soon see "double nine" spell casters all over the place, something I didnt enjoy all that much in the day.
It's one of the school feats from Inner Sea Magic.
fame score of 35 at level 8? Impressive.
==Aelryinth
It's one of the school feats from Inner Sea Magic.
fame score of 35 at level 8? Impressive.
==Aelryinth
How is that impressive? The game expects you to get 4-6 each level. On average, you can get 35 by level 7. Also, I don't believe it is a feat, it is simply something you get for being a member in high standing.
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As Aelryinth implies the clincher is in the fame score requirement of 35. Did the player make all the entrance exams and education checks? Pay all the fees? Spend all the time? If it all got hand waved away then seems pretty questionable.Of course if your fellow player has ben playing non-stop since Inner Sea Magic came out and earned it all in play, then good luck to them, MT can do with a boost.
For your second question IMHO Magical Knack and orange ioun stones do exactly what they say and no more, add caster levels. Esoteric Training has additional text grantiing more.
For your second question IMHO Magical Knack and orange ioun stones do exactly what they say and no more, add caster levels. Esoteric Training has additional text grantiing more.
That's the way we're running it, currently.
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Well its no different than the practiced caster of 3.5 the way i read it.Your damage output is the same as a 8th level caster ..Your Theurge should still only be casting level 3 spells.It could be read either way I grant you.However if you do it my way its far less overpowering and just means your spells have the same punch as a level 8 caster.I believe both Magical knack and esoteric training are meant to be replacements for the 3.5 knack and so should work exactly like that feat.
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Well its no different than the practiced caster of 3.5 the way i read it.Your damage output is the same as a 8th level caster ..Your Theurge should still only be casting level 3 spells.It could be read either way I grant you.However if you do it my way its far less overpowering and just means your spells have the same punch as a level 8 caster.I believe both Magical knack and esoteric training are meant to be replacements for the 3.5 knack and so should work exactly like that feat.
It can't, it's very clear. And ridiculously overpowered. Getting Practised spellcaster lookalikes for free is not that bad, but progressing your casting for free is balls-out crazy overpowered.
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Wow I totally missed that last part."These bonuses grant you additional spells known and spells per day for your modified caster level" I viciously kill it with my nerf stick!My apologies.Overpowered by a longshot especially since it doesnt cost you any feats etc.
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No, no feats. Just a lot of time, gold, and adventure investments. It basically beholdens you to an organization, which means the GM can do any number of things to your character as a result.
You also risk losing the advantages should ever leave the organization (unless you have a fame score of 47 or higher).
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Personally. I think Esoteric Training and Eclectic Training should just be feats, and the fame requirements should just eliminated altogether. It's hardly overpowered when you consider how vastly underpowered and underwhelming multiclassed spellcasters tend to be. These abilities would at least let them keep up with the rest of the party.
Given the circumstances, I'd say it's pushing toward the level of Abjurant Champion. Not in raw power necessarily, but when you now have an 8th level multiclassed character with almost all of the power of an 8th level wizard but slightly better hp and saves plus respectable clerical power, it's time to reevaluate.
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I'm less concerned about the power and more concerned about the fact that, from levels 7-16, there is little to no reason to play a standard wizard over a mystic theurge.
It also makes other multiclassing combos outright better than single-classes options (which is what takes it too far, in my opinion, they should be roughly equal to one another).
Which would you rather play from a mechanics perspective?
A paladin 3/sorcerer 17 who gets his Charisma to all of his saves, detect evil, smite evil 1/day (a great defensive AC buff), outright immunity to all disease and fear effects, lots of weak healing from lay on hands and mercy AS WELL AS full spellcasting as a 20th-level sorcerer AND ALL your bloodline abilities with a robe of arcane heritage.
OR
a 20th-level sorcerer that has the above, but no paladin abilities.
One is strictly inferior to the other. At best, the straight-sorcerer gets higher damage/DCs/ability with some of its bloodline abilities since its robe of arcane heritage can effectively make it epic level (24) for various ability calculations.
And that's what I don't like. It's too transparent. Choices shouldn't be so obvious.
I agree with you RD. To me, that is power. When you find little/no reason to remain single-classed, that's not a good thing IMHO. I think multiclassing in Pathfinder still needs help, but this feels like a little too much.
I agree with you RD. To me, that is power. When you find little/no reason to remain single-classed, that's not a good thing IMHO. I think multiclassing in Pathfinder still needs help, but this feels like a little too much.
With other builds it seems perfectly fine to me.
I have no problem with a [combat class] 5/[spellcaster] 5/eldritch knight 10 using Esoteric Training and Magical Knack, for example.
It has a BAB of +17 and can cast 9th-level spells at CL 19th, but only at level 20. It's still lagging behind in feats/smite/rage/spells/other important build abilities.
Such a build doesn't make obsolete a fighter OR a spellcaster, but is still pretty good at both (enough to be worth playing every once in a while).
It's not nearly as balanced for things like the evoker blaster build that takes one level of sorcerer to pick up the draconic bloodline damage bonuses. Using Esoteric Training and Magical Knack makes it so you lose out on NONE of the wizard casting AT ALL, AND you have an effective sorcerer caster level of 5. For most, that will be easily worth losing out on the wizard cap stone.
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Is your combo so different to a witch? They get access to both lists, depending on patron.
I don't see it as more powerful. Longer endurance and wider range but your dc is no better than a straifht wizard and your action economy is no better.
Is your combo so different to a witch? They get access to both lists, depending on patron.
I don't see it as more powerful. Longer endurance and wider range but your dc is no better than a straifht wizard and your action economy is no better.
Have you played a caster before?
How is the combo any better than practiced spellcaster from 3.5
This seems to be actually improving their spellcasting level by including spells known and spells per day, as opposed to just their caster level for purposes of spell effects and SR like other abilities. There's nothing else quite like that in PF or 3.5 that I'm aware of...
Magical Knack is on the not allowed in PFS list, even though I read that as just the standard caster level for effects and SR perk.
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"Iagreewithravingdork!"
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I could see it as a feat, perhaps with a Caster Level 9th prerequisite, or possibly even the ability to cast 4th level spells with two spellcasting classes.
It's POWERFUL, but I only really see it being overpowered in the hands of a dedicated optimizer, who would likely make something crazy anyways.
As it stands, I can really see it being useful for someone desperately trying to make a multiclassed caster build work, and being generally useful for most characters. Heck, I could see a fighter taking a few levels of wizard or sorcerer and not even worrying about hitting Eldritch Knight, which, again, I don't see as a bad thing.
Also, many games don't hit level 20, and I don't see a Paladin 3/Sorcerer 17 being any worse than most optimized level 20 characters.
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"Iagreewithravingdork!"
*Pumps fist in the air*
Another convert!
I don't have my Inner Sea Magic book with me (at work right now), but I could have swore Esoteric Training only adds one level to one class. I will double check when I get home
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I don't have my Inner Sea Magic book with me (at work right now), but I could have swore Esoteric Training only adds one level to one class. I will double check when I get home
Eclectic Training is the one that adds one level to one class.
Dropping the parenthetical notation
(including the number of spells you know and can cast per day)
would probably be fine as an adjustment.
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As JJ is the Golarion guy his reply here is very pertinent. Bold is mine.
Ah, I see what you're talking about regarding that. That probably is indeed an error, but I'd be interested to see how it plays out as written.1) magic Guilds: Ecletic training. the bonus seem very strong when compared with other bonuses you get with 5 fame in other magic schools. Isn't it a bit unbalanced? It can be applied to divine spell casting classes?
1) This would indeed apply to divine spellcasting, and it's not as strong as it looks. It's actually pretty much useless for most single classed spellcasters. It does help multiclassed spellcasters stay "caught up" sort of, as long as they don't split their caster levels too much. Note that an increase to your caster level only applies to how your spells function (with regard to things like caster level checks, SR penetration checks, duration, damage, range, and other variables influenced by caster level). An increased caster level does NOT grant you access to additional spells per day; that is not a function of caster level but of a class level.
choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice.Then there is an error in this text?
It say the ability increase the number of spells you can cast.
an increase in the caster level only would be balance with the other powers, I agree.
I did remembered that the were problems with long leave of absence from Schools/Guilds but skimming the relevant rules I haven't found anything.
As a GM I would require the player to apply to an appropriate school/guild to get the benefits. A mystic theurge that is a Cleric of Iomeade and a wizard can't join the Daggermark Poisoner Guild and get the benefits while keeping his cleric powers or his alignment. For a cleric/wizard of Norgorber it would be the perfect Guild.
The missions for the Guild/School give relatively little fame, the main source of fame is taking the exams.
As a general rule, a student should be able to attempt 4 to 6 Education checks per character level, so if in your game characters gain levels at a much accelerated or much slowed rate, you should adjust the length of a semester accordingly. One relatively simple way to hand-wave semesters is to simply treat each game session, no matter how much time passes during that session, as a “semester,” and allow characters in schools an Education check at the end of each game session. You can also simply tie these checks to character level, and allow characters to make 5 Education checks all at once every time they level. up.
Hand-waving the semesters to me seem to be the path of the power gamer, where people try to get a benefit without paying the cost. The school/guild should be something that give a benefit at a cost. Your character should spend time and resources to get his benefit. That way what he get will be balanced with his efforts. If not it will be a free gift from the GM and no one will have reasons not to take the benefit.
Hand-waving the semesters to me seem to be the path of the power gamer, where people try to get a benefit without paying the cost. The school/guild should be something that give a benefit at a cost. Your character should spend time and resources to get his benefit. That way what he get will be balanced with his efforts. If not it will be a free gift from the GM and no one will have reasons not to take the benefit.
Though I agree in general, it would seem odd to me to make a high level character with a long history of [getting to high level with the support of organizations] and still only have Fame 0.
Saying that a high level character should start off with 4, 5, or 6, fame per level (as it's the expected rate) and mark off the appropriate fees from his character sheet makes just as much makes sense as saying an 8th-level character should begin with 33,000gp worth of gear.
It's not "free fame" that is the problem. Many high-level adventurers get similar benefits even if they don't benefit from Pathfinder's organization rules (they often end up with bases of operation, servants, and perks of being famous/infamous, etc.). It's this particular benefit (eclectic training and its predecessor) that may or may not be unbalanced.
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Things like this are why I only allow the hardback books, any anything else is up to GM approval. It makes my life easier, and it decreases the power spread between those who would dig through every book to get an advantage and those that would not.
PS:I don't mind Eclectic Training as a boost to the Mystic Theurge, but you should have to have X many levels of two different classes as a prerequisite.
A GM should also put a cap on many casters levels a player can get from outside sources. I don't think Paizo assumes you will get every boost to caster level that you can get. They just have different ways to doing it so that we can have more options.
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Hand-waving the semesters to me seem to be the path of the power gamer, where people try to get a benefit without paying the cost. The school/guild should be something that give a benefit at a cost. Your character should spend time and resources to get his benefit. That way what he get will be balanced with his efforts. If not it will be a free gift from the GM and no one will have reasons not to take the benefit.Though I agree in general, it would seem odd to me to make a high level character with a long history of [getting to high level with the support of organizations] and still only have Fame 0.
Saying that a high level character should start off with 4, 5, or 6, fame per level (as it's the expected rate) and mark off the appropriate fees from his character sheet makes just as much makes sense as saying an 8th-level character should begin with 33,000gp worth of gear.
It's not "free fame" that is the problem. Many high-level adventurers get similar benefits even if they don't benefit from Pathfinder's organization rules (they often end up with bases of operation, servants, and perks of being famous/infamous, etc.). It's this particular benefit (eclectic training and its predecessor) that may or may not be unbalanced.
My point was mostly against what the writer suggested, i.e. bunching all the exam of a level in a series of rolls joust before gaining the next level, hand waving away the role playing and problems linked to being part of a guild.
The suggested value is 4-6 exam each level. You can assume some exam is a failure, at least at the start of the character career and I don't feel that a character claiming 10 level of back story should get the same benefits of someone that has played those 10 levels. I would give out 3 fame point each level or so.
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Hoping to continue discussion on this topic.
Do you think it is broken or a band-aid?
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Hoping to continue discussion on this topic.
Do you think it is broken or a band-aid?
I think it's a Band-aide for multi-classeers / gimped PrCs. Hopefully tho this won't be needed as much as we get new class options in the future.
Ooh, that's something I've not thought of. How might these rules interact with the new classes coming out soon?
I think in an average 1-20 (or 16, or wherever you end) game this isn't broken when played. A multiclass caster is still going through 6-10 levels of pain to make it to the point where they can take this ability, and it involves significant investment of time and resources. In theory another dedicated single-path caster is going to be able to specialize in other things and invest in other guilds and such with the same resources and come out ahead where they chose. Also in theory you wouldn't see people throwing out cheesy builds like "SorcererX/Paladin3" just to snag the saves, because in that case they'd have to live with three dragging paladin levels until that point (A PC that gained this ability then started immediately multiclassing would draw some heightened scrutiny from everyone at my table in terms of the character based choices that led them to multiclass after X levels).
I think in a ready made higher level game (e.g. starting at level 6-10) it becomes a no-brainer and probably significantly too powerful. If I were to make use of these rules in a game that started at higher level I'd probably only allow a character to start with 1-2 fame per level (or require them to have spent fame on lesser boons already), rather than the 4-6 they might gain through play. This would mean they could gain it after a few levels of play, but would not have it to start. I think that would discourage the simple power-gaming aspect of it, rather than the band-aid portion of it. The key is making sure you are paying the price for your talents. Like everything else in the system if you are out to break it you can probably find a way to do so in terms of the RAW - it's trying to make it play at a table with a GM giving you the evil eye that becomes more complicated.
Having played plenty of theurge type characters they do need the help.
If I were to make use of these rules in a game that started at higher level I'd probably only allow a character to start with 1-2 fame per level (or require them to have spent fame on lesser boons already), rather than the 4-6 they might gain through play.
If I remember correctly, you are confusing Fame with Prestige. Prestige is what you spend, Fame never goes away.
Hoping to continue discussion on this topic.
Do you think it is broken or a band-aid?
I admit, I haven't seen this in play yet, though I'd like to try it with one of my characters, who's mainly putting her levels in bard but with one or two in magus as well. I agree that the Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 17 thing is dubious for experienced players, which I'm not.
I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes, but I was thinking of adding a couple of restrictions as a house rule, because the benefits are tiered.To get this perk, a character would need uneven caster levels; the initial bonus to caster level goes to whichever caster level is lower, and that gets the additional bonus when the character gets the Fame for the boosted bonus to caster level, while the other caster level now gets the +1 to another class. That way the Paladin 3 / Sorcerer 17 casts as a Pal 6 / Sor 18.
If the mystic theurge is still a problem, I might add that at least one of the classes can't be a full 9 spell-level caster, which I think the fluff in ISM tries to suggest anyway: aren't these rules meant for organizations with less fussy members than a full-blown wizard's guild and such, as opposed to dilettantes that dabble in various forms of magic possibly in addition to other talents?
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As Aelryinth implies the clincher is in the fame score requirement of 35. Did the player make all the entrance exams and education checks? Pay all the fees? Spend all the time? If it all got hand waved away then seems pretty questionable.Of course if your fellow player has ben playing non-stop since Inner Sea Magic came out and earned it all in play, then good luck to them, MT can do with a boost.
This. And the whole Fame system is completely optional anyway. If you don't like it, just say no.
If I were to make use of these rules in a game that started at higher level I'd probably only allow a character to start with 1-2 fame per level (or require them to have spent fame on lesser boons already), rather than the 4-6 they might gain through play.If I remember correctly, you are confusing Fame with Prestige. Prestige is what you spend, Fame never goes away.
Then simply default to the original idea of mitigating prestige per level. I would in no way allow a character created at a higher level begin with the ability. Characters drawn from whole cloth at higher levels have enough advantages over organic PCs as it is.
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So a 20th-level spellcaster can't ever be anything but an acolyte in his organization despite the fact that he saved the world last week--twice!
Conceptually speaking, that makes no sense whatsoever.
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You took it to mean that the ability increases your caster level like a PrC. I take it that is just makes what spells you have more powerful, that he has the spells of a whatever level caster, but casts them as if he was 3 levels higher. Spells last longer, more powerful, stuff like that.
Eclectic Training (5 fame): Guilds often require members ito master and train in different subjects. When your fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least one level in--you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to you total Hit Dice...
emphasis mine
Esoteric training at 35 fame goes on to increase the bonus to +3, and you can give +1 to another spellcasting class. T
This is the same wording as used for prestige classes. You get to know more spells, and have more spell slots per day.
Edit: Corrected quote reference.
So a 20th-level spellcaster can't ever be anything but an acolyte in his organization despite the fact that he saved the world last week--twice!
Conceptually speaking, that makes no sense whatsoever.
Twenty fame is a senior guild member. That's hardly an acolyte and could well suit someone who has been a long time member of significant power but who typically pursues his own goals (which is probably how he reached 20th level).
If a player was insistent that he be some kind of guild leader might let that happen - while simply bumping the second tier of esoteric training to an even higher level or making it cost PP instead of being a side-effect of fame.
In no way would I let a player hogtie me into giving him a free +3 bonus to his effective level so he could multiclass during character creation. Period. The rules exist to flesh out a game world around the PCs, not for players to bend their GM's over with. Appealing to character fluff to gain mechanical power above and beyond what you would normally have (especially when, as noted above you already have tremendous benefit from building a character at level 8 or 10, or whatever instead of 1) is not going to fly. I'll work with you to make your fluff work, but you aren't going to control me with it in terms of the boons I hand out.
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Wow. Paranoid much? Nobody is trying to control anybody here.
I'm just using the same logic that is ascribed to us by the rules themselves (which is that having 35 at level 7 isn't unusual).
Starting at level 20 with no back story and having only 1, however, would be extremely unusual.
Wow. Paranoid much? Nobody is trying to control anybody here.
I'm just using the same logic that is ascribed to us by the rules themselves (which is that having 35 at level 7 isn't unusual).
Starting at level 20 with no back story and having only 1, however, would be extremely unusual.
First, when have I ever advocated having only a single point of game at level 20? I suggested I would limit a PC to 1-2 points per level if they were starting at high levels (the higher the level, the less fame).
Second, I'm not paranoid, simply pointing out that like many potential 'problems' these things come apart with a firm GM's hand. I labor under no illusion that I'm being forced to do anything, but if a player came to me with the argument you presented 'hey, I'm 20th level, I should be a guild master, no fair' I'd respond by simply pushing this ability out of reach for a few levels even so.
My position remains the same - I think the ability is probably overpowered when applied to PCs built at higher levels and capable of taking immediate advantage of it. I think in most circumstances (the majority of circumstances) when played from level one those problems wouldn't exist.
Third, while it's entirely possible for a PC to have 35 fame at level 7, it's far more likely that is not the case. The book says assume 4-6 education checks a level. Great, that is a potential for 4-6 points per level at the top end. Lets consider though that it's a DC 15+rank check, which at levels 1-6 is hardly guaranteed (indeed, I'd figure it's about a 55-60% chance of success - 17 base int, +3 skill bonus, int to 18 @ level 4). Lets also consider that in many games access to a given guild may not be available at level 1, right out of the gate. It's more likely on the numbers that a PC at level 7 will have approximately 15-20 points, since he won't start getting the intelligence score and other resources needed to auto-succeed on his education checks until level 10-12.
The rules exist to flesh out a game world around the PCs, not for players to bend their GM's over with.LOL! I want to sig this so badly!
You could favorite the post ;)
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It's fine. It's a band-aid ability that only exists to make gish casters viable at all.