D'arandriel's page

Organized Play Member. 272 posts (276 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character. 1 alias.


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A Kensai magus "feels" LG to me. They get quite a bit, although they also give up quite a bit. If you can figure out a way to take advantage of all of their AoO, they can be devastating. Maybe a dip into Monk and/or Fighter...

I really like the Hexcrafter magus. There's a pretty awesome guide out there somewhere. I love all the uses of prehensile hair.

It's a long way off...but I've thought about adding Calcific Touch via Spell Blending or Broad Study and casting it as an empowered, maximized Calcific Touch. Most creatures should be reduced to 0 Dex and completely helpless after you've made all of your attacks in a round.

At the lower levels, I think a Rimed Frostbite is very good. You are doing as much damage as a Paladin's Smite + an additional 1d6 + entanglement.

Thalin wrote:
Have fun with it; and if they keep acting like psychotic aggressive barbarian morons kill them and teach them their lesson :).

My psychotic, aggressive, barbarian moron took on Delvahine almost single handedly...It was Xanesha that was the TPK for our party.

Khaine as worshipped by the Elves or by humanity? There's a big difference. If it's the Khaine that is worshipped by Humanity then he's similar enough to Nogorber, that I would just substitute Norgorger's domains for Khaine's. If the Elven version of Khaine, then maybe a combination of Norgorber and Gorum in terms of domains granted. Preferred weapons would be whatever his description states in WH - I think a dagger for the Human version of Khaine and a great sword for the Elf version. Alignment is probably NE, but an argument can be made for CE, especially if Khaine is actually an aspect of Khorne...The idea has been floated around...

Sir Thugsalot wrote:

1. Half-orcs should be "violet", as they quality for the Ferocious Tenacity feat.

2. Speaking of feats missing from the guide....see above.

I would agree that half-orcs are probably marginally better than humans and half-elves. Not sure if that makes them violet.

I like Ferocious Tenacity, but its an immediate action to use, which means its only usable once per round. Still, it's a very good (imo - green) feat.

Driver 325 yards wrote:
After reading the threads, it seems like the above description is the most conservative viewpoint on Guarded Life. Even with the most conservative viewpoint, Guarded Life seems pretty good to me.

Yes, you are right...

Anyway, I see two points that need to clarified with Guarded Life/Greater Guarded Life. First, as has been pointed out, is whether or not to apply an Invulnerable Rager's DR twice or not - once vs. lethal damage, then again vs. the non-lethal damage. The other question that needs to be resolved is when exactly Guarded Life kicks in? Does it kick in only on damage below 0? Or an any amount of damage that would reduce you below 0?

I think its worth pointing these nuances out in the guide, and until there is a FAQ, GMs and players can determine how this will work at their table.

Here's a thread with a couple of threads on the "Unkillable barbarian"



http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pri5?Help-me-flesh-out-my-UnKillable-Barbarian #37

Anyway, how Guarded Life/Greater Guarded Life works is up for interpretation.

This was very well phrased by Wiggz:

"As I understand it, it can be quite tricky and open to interpretation... the biggest question is whether or not you get to double-dip due to two different types of incoming damage.

An Invulnerable Rager gains double his normal DR vs. non-lethal damage... so let's look at it like this: let's say you're a 20th level Barb, have DR 10/-, Greater Guarded Life, have 10 hit points remaining and take 25 points of damage.

First, your DR reduces that 25 by 10. The other 15 get through. 10 of that damage would reduce you to 0 which would theoretically trigger Guarded Life. Now, does Guarded Life affect the entire incoming attack or just the damage that takes you below zero? Let's say the latter - well, since you effectively have DR 20/- vs. those 5 points of incoming now non-lethal damage, you remain at zero.

Then, you take another attack for 25 points of damage. First your DR 10/- applies, reducing it to 15... then, since any damage at all would take you below zero all the rest gets converted to non-lethal and you have DR 20/- vs. non-lethal, so you don't take any damage at all.

At least, that's my interpretation of how it works. I've seen enough disagreements to acknowledge that its pretty confusing at least and would love a Dev to weigh in."

Anyway, I'm sure you can see how Guarded Life/Greater Guarded Life can be seen as very good rage powers. Alternately they could be complete crap...it's definitely up for interpretation.

As for Half Elves, since they can add +2 to any attribute and take the Human favored class bonus, they are blue...perhaps marginally less blue than a Half Orc, but no less blue than a Human. A half elf barbarian offends my sensibilities, and I probably would never play one, but statistically, they are every bit as good as Half Orcs and Humans.

I do hope you complete the Barbarian Guide, since every other barbarian guide has not been completed.

In no particular order:

I'm assuming Asian themed weapons were intentionally left off. If not the no-dachi is a great weapon.

I would also include the Elven Curve Blade for consideration under exotic weapons.

Something to consider is how some people interpret guarded life/greater guarded life. This could easily be blue if it works like many people on these boards thinks it does. There's quite a few threads on making an unkillable barbarian utilizing guarded life/greater guarded life.

If the Half-Orc is blue as a race, then the Half Elf is also arguably blue. They don't really fit the image of a barbarian quite like the half orc, but I think they can be built just as good.

Coinshot Colton wrote:
Before you get CaGM, how do you survive with Superstition? You can't always 1-hit things, and bad guys will be possibly higher CRs and can focus fire on you.

You control the battlefield with lunge, reach weapons and combat maneuvers to mitigate damage. I haven't had too much of a need for in combat healing. Spells like haste can be cast before you begin your rage. The benefits of Superstition far out way the drawbacks.

klevis69 wrote:
I think flesh wound is amazing. I'm planning on taking it at 13 instead of ghost rager and delaying ghost rager till much later. What is your feeling on the comparison between the 2?

I know this question was not addressed to me, but I did take ghost rager instead of flesh wound, and in hindsight, I think flesh wound would have been better. Flesh wound can be used every round (with fatigue immunity), ghost rager is amazing when you go up against the BBEG and he's throwing maximized, empowered ray attacks against you and finding that you are not so easy to hit.

klevis69 wrote:

Thank you for this insight D'arandriel. Have been wondering about this. Are you not needing the dr because party healing can cover you?

Also, how would you deal with the fatigue from bolstered? Restoration pots? Almight drugs? Heart of fields? Probably all 3? ;)

I generally don't need the DR, because nothing survives the damage my barbarian can put out. I have a +4 keen, furious, courageous fauchard with a CaGM barbarian. Most of the creatures we face are large or bigger, so I decided a reach weapon made sense. Most of the damage I do take in combat can be covered by healing after combat.

I have fatigue immunity through a custom item that is essentially a cord of stubborn resolve/belt of physical perfection. Before I could afford the item, I used the allnight drug or potions of invigorate.

EDIT: I also tend to control the battle field with Lunge and trip attacks, so I am only facing a number of opponents I can handle. This also mitigates the damage I take in combat. I also love Unexpected Strike, since it's a free attack every round without granting my opponents a +4 to hit and damage against me via CaGM.

I absolutely agree about Courageous being purple - maybe uber-purple... It adds to Str and a Con while Raging, Superstition, Surprise Accuracy, Ghost Rager bonus to touch AC, if you have Herosim or Greater Heroism cast on you, a flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone, etc...There's lots of morale bonuses in the game.

As far as equipment, I've always liked the the Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid for only 1500gp - you gain weapon familiarity with any weapon, so you don't need to waste a feat on an exotic weapon like the fauchard or falcata.

Speaking of the falcata, I didn't see it mentioned in your guide - it's one of the best weapons in the game, and there's no reason you can't wield it two-handed.

I also didn't see the Headband of Havoc, Cloak of the Hedge Wizard (Abjuration) or the Quick Runner Shirt in your guide. The Headband is custom made for barbarians - it allows you to enter rage as an immediate action and treat a rage powers as if 4 levels higher. The Cloak of the Hedge Wizard (Abjuration) gives you 1/day shield spell. The cloak is cheap enough that you can carry multiple cloaks and switch between combats. Eventually, the standard action to activate the shield is probably not going to be worth it, but at low to mid-levels, definitely worth the investment. The Quick Runner Shirt allows you to move as a swift action 1/day - again inexpensive enough to carry multiples and switch between combats. It's a quick and cheap way to move and attack without waiting for pounce.

Lastly, this is purely anecdotal, but I'm currently playing a barbarian and decided to take the level dip in Unbreakable fighter and the ridiculous DR from Stalwart and Improved Stalwart - I'm finding that I really don't need all that DR, and more importantly, I frequently need to increase my to hit chances by using Reckless Abandon and having the wizard buff me with Heroism (and adding Courageous on top of that). Anyway, if I could do it all over again, I would probably reconsider taking the Unbreakable, Stalwart and Improved Stalwart Combo (unfortunately, the GM does not use the retraining rules). In Hindsight, Bolstered Resilience might have been the better way to go for increased DR when I need it.

Would it be unreasonable for a character who has taken a 1 level sorcerer dip to take Eldritch Heritage without meeting the prerequisites? I realize this is not in the RAW, but I'm curious how others would handle this and why. I'm inclined to assume they have met all prerequisites since they already have the bloodline in question, and would have no issues with them taking Improved Eldritch Heritage and Greater Eldritch Heritage to advance their bloodline powers.

I'm playing a barbarian right now in a rather long running campaign. I was tempted to use a falcata (utlizing the ioun stone/wayfinder), but decided on a fauchard with the lunge feat instead. The GM house ruled that I could use the reach weapon as an improvised weapon vs. adjacent targets. Anyway, the beauty of this is that I can attack from 15ft away (20ft when enlarged), generally use any combat maneuver I want without worry of attacks of opportunity, and can still use the weapon against adjacent opponents. Best of all, AC is not too much of a factor since the opponents generally only get one attack against my barbarian since they must move more than 5ft to attack.

I do think you're underselling the damage you could inflict with a falcata. But if you don't think the 17-20/x3 crit is worth it, then look at an 15-20/x2 weapon instead. I don't think damage dice are as meaningful as the chance to land the crit and the multiplier. I'm reasonably certain that the falcata has been shown to be the best weapon in the game.

I don't think you need to worry too much about a wayfinder being sundered or stolen. Just keep it well hidden. You really can't sunder or steal something if you don't even know that it exists.

Also, an urban barbarian can always enter into a standard rage if you ever want both Str and Con bonuses. You just have the option to enter a controlled rage.

Anyway, it's rather difficult to build an ineffective barbarian, you have the Beast Totem line and CaGM - everything else is just gravy. I don't worry too much about de-buffs, since the "dead" condition takes care of that rather well.

I would take Courageous over Cruel. Don't bother with Cornugon Smash, which also means don't bother with Intimidating Prowess. Take either improved critical or make your weapon keen. Buy a cracked Opalescent White Pyramid Ioun Stone for only 1500 gp, and gain weapon familiarity with the Falcata (which is essentially proficiency since you treat the weapon as a martial weapon). Your party members will be thanking you when you're doing massive damage to everything around you. There's no better de-buff than actually killing your opponents. If you don't want a silly stone floating around your head just buy a wayfinder. You probably don't need Improved Sunder, with Strength Surge you should be able to succeed at any combat maneuver. Just take the AoO, you should have enough HPs that it's never going to be an issue. Other cheap and very useful items are the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier, Cloak of the Hedge Wizard (Abjuration, for a 1/day +4 Shield Bonus to AC or Transmutation for 1/day enlarge) and a Quick Runner Shirt. These items are inexpensive enough that you can carry multiples of them in a backpack and change them between fights. So, I'm eliminating 3 feats - I would replace them with Improved Initiative, Reckless Abandon and Raging Brutality.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Flawed Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone. For only 28,000 gp, it gives you a +1 morale bonus to attacks, saves, skill checks and ability checks. Once you add your bonus from Courageous, you are now at +4 to all these.

A Phalynx fighter with a tower shield in one hand and a polearm in the other can still get attacks of opportunity. With the right feats, you can make a good build that utilizes attacks of opportunity.

Is the GM a stickler for the rules? If not, then it really doesn't matter how long it takes to craft. He can determine that crafting takes as long or as short as is needed between events. There will always be natural breaks between events. Crafting time should rarely be a factor.

Everyone will have differing opinions on how and how much a custom item should be priced. I just find little justification to price this item much more than a permanent enlarge person. Certainly no one has presented any compelling reasons. 4000gp seems like a fair price considering a permanent enlarge person is only 2500gp.

I have found in another custom item thread that pricing these items can get contentious and people tend to ignore and/or dismiss what they don't agree with. Anyway, like I said before, its more an art than a science.

I agree that there is no such thing as use activated bracers. These would either be continuous enlarge person bracers or unlimited use, which would be a standard action to activate. I would probably double the cost for free action or swift action activation.

Pricing custom items is more an art than a science, and this should probably be under Advise and not Rules. Anyway, it should be somewhat more expensive than having a permanent enlarge person cast on you, so I think the standard formula (SLxCLx2000xrelevant modifiers) works and 4000gp sounds about right.

Go for faerie dragon instead. They are treated as sorcerers and probably won't ever need UMD as a skill.

If you really want an imp and UMD, then the Dangerously Curious trait makes UMD a class skill and gives you an additional +1.

The Pragmatic Activator trait lets you use your Intelligence modifier instead of Charisma when making UMD checks.

Unfortunately, since these are both magic traits, you can only take one or the other.

Personally, I would go with a faerie dragon.

The Shaman wrote:

The stats look ok, I would probably try to get a 16-14 instead of 15-15, but that is your call. I personally prefer to have a decent amount of SP though, and paladins have a very decent skill list, so I might actually be tempted to pick up skill points as a class bonus. You could lower either intelligence or wisdom - it could be your paladin is naive or just a bit airheaded, and the elven bonuses to perception and resistance to enchantments cover some of the weaknesses. Or it could be you are ok with other people handling the skill department... though that charisma is a horrible thing to waste.

BTW, another option you may be interested in is having a bit lower strength (enough to power attack, of course) and using dervish dance so both your attack and damage are based off dexterity. It does require a few feats, though.

Definitely not interested in dervish dance since the character will be feat starved as it is. I would love to do this as a TWF, but again, due to lack of feats, that doesn't seem like an option. I'm happy to go with a TWF and archer.

I've considered a ranger, and still considering it, but would prefer the concept of a paladin.

I realize its sub optimal, but I would like to try and make a Tolkein-esque Elven warrior (think around the time of the The Silmarillion / pre LotR) - and I think an Elven Paladin fits then idea pretty well.

Assume a 25 point buy. I would take the Elven favored class bonus to Lay on Hands and Fey Foundling as a trait to mitigate the reduced Con and HPs. I would like to make a "switch hitter" utilizing archery for ranged attacks (very "Elven") and probably use the Elven Curve Blade in melee. As far as archetypes, I'm thinking the Oath of Vengeance Paladin, but open to mixing in or going with other archetypes as well.

Anyway, I'm open to any feats, traits and any other ideas anyone would like to suggest.

Why even bother trying to role play rage cycling? Just think of it as your once per rage abilities now work once per round.

Name Violation wrote:

its a class feature.

it only ever gets whats on the chart. no changes, no alterations, no loopholes, no backdoor shenanigans

It's a class feature that also happens to be an intelligent magic item. I don't see this as a "loophole" or "backdoor shenanigan".

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

It appears that the FAQ made it clear that one cannot use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase a black blade's enhancement bonus or add weapon properties?

Magus, Black Blade: Can I use Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase my blade's enhancement bonus?

No, nor can you use that feat to add other properties (such as flaming) to the black blade. You can use your arcane pool to temporarily add abilities to your black blade.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13

Since the FAQ is very specific about what cannot be upgraded on the black blade. It seems to leave some wiggle room for other means of upgrading the black blade. What about adding non-weapon abilities to the black blade? For example, could I enhance my black blade to have Telepathy? Extending the range of the black blade's senses to 120 feet? Giving it the ability to cast a 3rd level spell 3/day, etc.? All of this is under the Intelligent Items rules/guidelines. What's the general consensus, if any? I'm inclined to believe that there are no rules against it and it can be done.


Robert A Matthews wrote:
D'arandriel wrote:
Is it me or is there a reluctance to hit the FAQ?
I don't hit FAQ for corner cases, especially when you can't find a page full of threads on the same subject when searching previous threads. It clogs up the FAQ queue. There is already a FAQ that is similar enough to count this ability. Various quotes have been posted to answer your question without the need of a FAQ.

It's hardly a "corner case". And, as stated, Divine Bond was kust used as an example. There's plenty of SLAs that do not duplicate spells. It's a very simple question, can you use Quicken SLA on SLAs that do not duplicate spells? There's been quite a bit of discussion on previous threads regarding Quickening Touch of Rage. I know there's plenty of builds utilizing Quicken SLA with Touch of Rage. Please hit FAQ.

Is it me or is there a reluctance to hit the FAQ?

DM_Blake wrote:

Maybe the prerequisite of the feat itself:

Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at CL 10th or higher.

Since even the FAQ says that Divine Bond is not CL 10 or higher, it would never be eligible.

As for other SLAs, the FAQ references spells the user can cast, but that doesn't help with any non-caster who has an SLA. So if the OP's question is valid, then the FAQ that tells a fighter his SLA (if he finds a way to get one, say, from his race) must have a caster level equal to the highest level fighter spell he can cast - nonsense, at least for a fighter (or any other non-casting class).

I still contend that the Quicken SLA feat says it can only be used on SLAs that duplicate spells, so the original question is moot:

From the feat:
"The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4."

Thank you DM Blake. There are clearly two interpretations here, so I think hitting the FAQ could resolve this without endless debate.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that a paladin should be able to quicken SLA with his divine bond or someone with Eldritch Heritage (Orc) should Quicken SLA with Touch of Rage. I just wanted to give some possibly egregious examples.

Gauss wrote:

FAQ'd, I've examined this myself and came up with a less than certain answer although it does appear to be on the same side as what DM_Blake stated.

As for level 7-9 being quickened, yes you can via a Rod. Letting a paladin quicken his Divine Bond is not necessarily OP imo.

D'arandriel, if this does not turn into a debate then this thread will die quickly and you will get no FAQs. You need multiple people being interested in it and the easiest way to accomplish that is...DEBATE.

- Gauss

Ok, let's make it a debate then.

Here's the FAQ stating that SLAs are treated as "highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained."

Cleric domains, sorcerer bloodlines, wizard schools, and certain other class features give spell-like abilities that aren't based on spells. What's the effective spell level for these abilities?

The effective spell level for these spell-like abilities is equal to the highest-level spell that a character of that class could normally cast at the level the ability is gained.

For example, a 1st-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental ray as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 1's highest-level spell available is 1st, that spell-like ability counts as a 1st-level spell. A 9th-level elemental bloodline sorcerer has elemental blast as a spell-like ability. Because a sorcerer 9's highest-level spell available is 4th, that spell-like ability counts as a 4th-level spell.

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/07/11

So, in my example, the paladin gets his divine bond at 5th level, and it would be considered a 1st level SLA, and he can pick up Quicken SLA at level 13. Anyway there's many other threads out there that support this interpretation of using Quicken SLA. I don't believe the answer is clear, and i feel it requires a FAQ, so please hit the FAQ.

EDIT: Maybe the paladins' Divine Bond may not be the best example. Let's use Touch of Rage from the Orc Bloodline. The questions still stands, can a SLA that does not duplicate a spell still be quickened? Please hit FAQ.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
DM_Blake wrote:

The answer is fairly clearly "no".


Game balance. Obviously, Quicken Spell is very powerful so it can only be used on spells that are very low-level for the guy who is casting them. Nobody can normally Quicken their top three levels of spells (well, some additional feats can modify this a little) so the feat is already restricted to prevent users from applying it to their most powerful abilities.

Quicken Spell-Like Ability is just as powerful, and has the same limitation. Users cannot apply it to their most powerful SLAs In order to apply this limitation, they made some wonky game construct about caster levels and equivalent spell levels. Because of this wonky construct, it can only be applied to SLAs that have spell levels and caster levels. Anything else is an invalid use of this feat.

They even went out of their way to add wording to make this indisputable:
"Choose one of the creature's spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described in this feat."

Per your example, Divine Bond, this is an ability that grows and becomes more powerful as the paladin gains levels. Clearly, at any level of paladin, Divine Bond is NEVER one of his weaker abilities. It would be overpowering to allow a paladin to quicken his best abilities, just like it would be overpowering to allow a wizard to quicken his highest level of spells.

I don't really want this to turn into a debate of whether this clearly yes or clearly no. I can site examples where its clearly yes. Would you please hit the FAQ

9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

There are numerous spell-like abilities that do not duplicate a spell in way whatsoever. Can these spell-like abilities be quickened? I've searched, and I don't see that it's been answered definitively. For example, can a paladin take Quicken SLA with a divine bond?

If this has been answered explicitly already (not extrapolated), please point me in the right direction, otherwise, please hit the FAQ.

I'm not reading this entire post....but...I can't imagine any rationale GM having an issue with a player creating a new spell called "Celestial Healing" (using holy water or celestial blood) or even just "Fast Healing" (using Troll blood or something along those lines). If the mechanics of the spell will work exactly the same as Infernal Healing, a spell that is already in the game, it should never be an issue.

Just pay to add the spell before it ever becomes an artifact. Or discuss with your GM to delay utilizing the ability until you can take it again and add see if he will let you use 10 spell levels total.

I like the longspear for a rogue. You can flank and sneak attack at reach while the fighter types go toe to toe. As long as you're out of reach, you're not being attacked. I also think the scout archetype is the way to go for an offensively minded rogue.

If you play a half orc, the skulking slayer is also a good archetype.

Of course there's something to be said about the sap master build, but that's a very feat intensive investment.

Find a way to gain fatigue immunity and you can move around by turning your defensive stance on and off as a free action. Lots of ways to do this - just do a search for rage cycling or barbarians.

I would not worry about healing magic too much. It gets a lot less dark and gritty when everyone can just heal up between encounters. Healing should take longer and the healing skill becomes more useful. You'll need to allow for natural healing of ability drain, energy drain, etc. I think the Conan RPG covered natural healing very well. I really can't recommend it enough if you want to run a dark and gritty type of campaign. There's a lot of rules and ideas you can borrow and use without too much difficulty, since its also based on 3.5 rules like Pathfinder.

If you can afford it, grab a Lord's Banner (of Victory). It's basically a permanent Heroism spell for any ally that can see the banner.

Maybe convince all party members to contribute towards the purchase of the banner, since it would benefit everyone.

There's also the barbarian rage power, Surprise Accuracy that grants a morale bonus to hit.

There's also a feat that grants a morale bonus to hit and damage when you are fighting alone. Can't remember the name of the feat.

Just look at AmBarbarian's guide. the thread is as helpful as the guide.

It's really so simple for the GM to just say the items were crafted in a week or two, or however long the party has between adventures. I would just discuss it with the GM. If he's a stickler for rules, and will calculate exactly how many days it will take, knowing you just don't have the time because of the adventure, then it's probably not worth it. If, on the other hand, he'll progress the story, regardless of how long something should take to craft, then it's worth having the discussion. It's definitely a conversation you should have before creating a character and starting the AP though.

Just do a search for E6 or E8 rules, although Pathfinder may not be the best system for dark and gritty, but it could work. I would look at Conan or Game of Thrones RPGs (d20 versions). Warhammer 2E is also really good, but different from d20 games.

You can change masterwork weapons and armor to include enhancement bonuses and other bonuses as you see fit, such as keen. Basically anything that is not overtly magical in nature (like a sword that flames upon command) could work as an exceptionally crafted weapon. Treat any and all magic items as if a its one of a kind and an artifact in its own right.

Peet wrote:
For most of those spells I would agree with you. But shield is an exception because the spell's range is personal. Personal spells are restricted from use by non-casters because they provide an advantage that in the hands of martial characters becomes broken.

Oh for Peet's sake ;-)

There's actually nothing in the rules or guidelines indicating that a personal range spell should be any more expensive than any other spell. If a GM wants to make them more expensive, then that's entirely his judgement call. But the fact of the matter is that you're making an argument based on a premise that's not in the game, at least in regards to command word items - which is what we are talking about.

Peet wrote:
People have brought up the cloak of the hedge wizard as an alternative, but I really don't think the designer of that item though through the ramifications of the item. It seems unlikely that the designer envisioned someone other than a full arcane caster using it and he did not realize that he was opening up a big can of worms by giving easy access to personal-range spells. I would require the use of the cloak of the hedge wizard to require a UMD check as if it were a wand in order to use the personal spells therein.

You're assuming that this is the case, but the fact of the matter is Paizo has not had any retractions or errata regarding this particular item. There was another thread specifically about the cloak of the hedge wizard, and most thought it was priced appropriately. If most people think the item is truly game breaking or priced incorrectly, then I'm sure Paizo will eventually listen to the masses (and hopefully not the vocal minority) and either change the spells associated with the cloak or re-price the item. I also think the cloak was very clearly meant for non-casters, but we are now trying to get into the designer's intent, and there's really no way for either of us to know that at this time.

Anyway, I do think action economy trumps a +4 shield bonus to AC. Just based on personal experience so far, I find that pre-buffing prior to combat is really not possible all the time. If our party pre-buffs 50% of the time, we are doing very well. I think there would be justification for significantly higher costs for this item if it were being activated at all times before combat. I would then agree that there's virtually no difference between always on and 30 rounds of combat a day.

At the end of the day, I think it's safe to say we can all agree to disagree on this one. As Kudaku has pointed out, there's been no new arguments from anyone regarding this item. There's two sides firmly entrenched in their positions, and no one is changing the other's opinions.

I really did want to bite my tongue, but I'm in shock that this debate and this thread is still going. And still in 100% disagreement with Aerylinth's interpretation of the custom magic item creation guidelines.

Aelryinth wrote:
Actually, it's because continuous AC items are the baseline and standard of what you should price ALL AC items at.

Really? Where is this stated explicitly? This is your interpretation.

Aelryinth wrote:
as has been pointed out numerous times, and you are still ignoring. It breaks all pricing guidelines for AC based items.

As has been pointed out numerous time, and you are still ignoring...the cloak of the hedge wizard.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

From my experience, if we pre-buff 50% of the time, we're doing well. We tend to have more than three combats in a day. And while 30 rounds may seem like a lot, it is not the right way to look at it. Its not like you can use those 30 rounds of shield as you see fit. Its really 3 uses a day for 10 rounds per use, which can cover three combats. Its highly unlikely one use will cover multiple combats.

Neo2151 wrote:

There's another consideration that's being entirely missed in regards to Personal Spells and allowing them in magic item form:

Spells are a class feature.

Some spells are designed to be "shared with the group" because buffing your friends is a fun part of gameplay. However, giving anyone easy access to spells that are normally unsharable should be seriously taken into consideration.
Consider the cost of a Ring of Evasion: If you can't make your save, it does literally nothing. If you can make your save, you weren't taking that much damage to begin with, making it a rather unimpressive ability to be handing out (Improved Evasion would make for a great item - you'll notice that ring doesn't exist in the RAW...), yet you're still paying 25,000gp to get it.

This is not an unfair comment, however, since there is a pricing formula to craft items using spell effects, the counter argument is that the game already takes into account the fact that spells (including personal spells) can be duplicated and usable by other classes through magical items. You'll note that there is no cost or formula for adding class features to a magical item.

Although spells are a class feature, they are also very different in the context of the game from pretty much any other class feature.

LordSynos - if you think the cloak of the hedge wizard is a balanced item, do you really see a significant advantage to having three charges of shield per day vs. having three cloaks and changing between combats? As I've said, I could see paying a slight premium for the convenience of having three charges per day in one item vs. three items with one charge per day each, but I don't think its worth dramatically more.

BigDTBone wrote:
D'arandriel wrote:

As I have stated before, the guidelines are just that - guidelines, not rules.
OK, OP, why does this thread exist then? Oh yea, you asked for advice in the advice forum...

I did ask for advice. I received advice. I thanked everyone for offering their advice. I was looking to price the item fairly and am now convinced I know what the fair market price is. What Aerylinth is doing is disregarding all opinions and interpretations of the guidelines to create a custom item but his own. He seems to think only his interpretation is correct and presents it as "intent" or "rules" or both.

Maybe I'm just reading too much tone in this thread when I really shouldn't.

Neo2151 wrote:

Also, too many people are getting caught up on the "3/day means it should be super-cheap." No. Just no. If you think that 1080 is the correct price, then you also think that 1800 is the correct price for the same ring, minus the limited number of times per day. And at that point, why would you ever spend 16,000 on a Ring of Protection when you can just throw chump change for a Ring of always-active Shield?

Bad math is bad, and you should feel bad.

As has been stated time and time again on this thread, do one is trying to price a continuous shield item. This statement is disingenuous. Just because I accept premise A, does not mean accept premise B.

Aelryinth wrote:

OR, more directly, why spend 8k for a Ring of Prot+2 when a Ring of Shield of Faith, CL1, is also 1800 gp?

Fixed benefit low level spells that start high and scale unevenly are always priced low. THat's why you buy 2 CLW wands, CL 1, instead of a level 5 CLW wand. More healing for 2/5th the price.

Aelryinth - you keep beating the same drum. Again, you are basically saying that a command word activated item, usable 3/day, for one minute at a time, that can be easily dispelled, is basically as useful as a permanent item. You keep siting examples from the rulebook that specifically reference abusing the item crafting formulas to create continuous or use activated spells. NO ONE is trying to do this. EVERYONE is in agreement that using the CL*SL formula would be wrong to create an always on item that grants a +4 to AC. You fail to recognize that everyone's opinions are as valid as your own. As I have stated before, the guidelines are just that - guidelines, not rules. You are free to price this item as you wish. Lastly, you fail to recognize that there is already an item, the cloak of the hedge wizard, that does exactly (and more) what this item does, which would seem to support the SL*CL formula to determine the pricing for this item or even an item that grants mage armor a number of times per day. Most people who posted don't seem to think the cloak is underpriced. Paizo has not stated that they are planning to re-price the item. So you are conveniently ignoring a precedent that is part of the game. Frankly, I'm finding your posts rude and condescending.

Ilja wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
10-16, have no doubt.

Since this is 3/day shield, and 3*cloak of the hedge wizard is 7500 and provides those benefits as well as 3/day Endure Elements and at will Resistance and Prestidigitation, why would anyone ever pay more than 7500 gp for the ring (that's considering they don't see any use at all in endure elements and resistance and prest. and prefer a ring just for convenience).

Unless the fights are longer than 10 rounds there is really no benefit at all to the ring compared to three cloaks.

EDIT: At low levels, AC is very important, and I can see this ring being about as powerful as a RoP +2 due to stacking and the higher bonus. At 3rd level a two-handed fighter with this would be a force to be reckoned with, having the offense of a two-hander but the defense of a sword & boarder. At higher levels the bonus quickly gets neglible though, as action economy becomes more scarce and the +4 bonus starts to lose comparative value to using the slot for a RoP +3 or +4.

Ilja - I've asked this questions repeatedly, and so far there's been deafening silence.

I was very impressed with Kudaku and MagiMaster compiling everyone's costs. I certainly didn't have the patience to do that. Although, I'm uncertain if the costs were to craft or to purchase the item. For example, I think the 12k quoted by Aerylinth was to craft. The 1080 from me is the cost to purchase.

At the end of the day, I think we are all agreed that the formulas to create a custom magic item is just a guideline and not a hard and fast rule. So Aelryinth is not incorrect. With that said, I'm glad he's not my GM. As has been stated, if this was an effect I wanted desperately, there's better ways to do it for 12,000 gold or less. I could have 3 cloaks of the hedge wizard for considerably less. Anyway, I got the answer I needed and wanted to thank everyone. I'm actually shocked this thread is as long as it is.

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