Good. This needed to go to trial.
This is all I asked for.
I have to give it up to Zimmerman. He never made any attempt to flee the authorities and when informed he was going to be arrest, he returned to Florida willingly and gave himself up. He did go in hiding, but that was due to death threats on his life and he was not hiding from the authorities at any time. No matter how this falls out, you have to give some respect to that type of behavior.
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I have to give it up to Zimmerman. He never made any attempt to flee the authorities and when informed he was going to be arrest, he returned to Florida willingly and gave himself up. He did go in hiding, but that was due to death threats on his life and he was not hiding from the authorities at any time. No matter how this falls out, you have to give some respect to that type of behavior.
He still stands a good chance to beat this thing and be acquitted. Fleeing would have been detrimental to his case. I think it was just common sense.
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I have to give it up to Zimmerman. He never made any attempt to flee the authorities and when informed he was going to be arrest, he returned to Florida willingly and gave himself up. He did go in hiding, but that was due to death threats on his life and he was not hiding from the authorities at any time. No matter how this falls out, you have to give some respect to that type of behavior.He still stands a good chance to beat this thing and be acquitted. Fleeing would have been detrimental to his case. I think it was just common sense.
Yeah, but common sense hasn't really been this guys forte.
Good. This needed to go to trial.
Man, Kryzbyn, we agree again. Twice in one life time. Crazy!
Thoughts on Zimmerman trying to get on Hannity? I think something's up here...Not sure if this guy is playing with a full deck or what.
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Not sure if this guy is playing with a full deck or what.
Who, Hannity? We've known that for some time.
Again, there is no evidence from the video that his nose is broken, this is not the same as there is evidence it is not broken. Between the time when it stops bleeding is cleaned up and to the time when it starts bruising visibly there may be a time when it is not immediately obvious that it is broken. This could be the case here.
Also, there maybe some differences between a technical nose break/fracture and what many of us consider a "true" nose break. If medical records are produced, I foresee people arguing that what the records show is not a "true" break, even though it might technically be one. These are the games people play in order to maintain their own paradigm.
Well let's see how long it takes for people to start arguing about if a "closed fracture" of his nose is really a "broken nose".
Good. This needed to go to trial.Man, Kryzbyn, we agree again. Twice in one life time. Crazy!
I know right?
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Duke is a poor comparison as the dna evidence there wouldn't help here much. This development really doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. A fight broke out, that much is obvious. We still don't know who approached who or what else occurred that night. We're going to need some witnesses or forensics here, especially the state of martins body, which I hope to see soon. This case, is far from closed.
Well, it doesn't seem obvious to me that a volunteer neighborhood watch captain with connections to law enforcement, and, presumably, knowledge of the law, would whip out his piece first thing.
A fight broke out between a guy the media wants to paint as a killer with a gun and an unarmed person.
How is this a less than accurate description? One man, George Zimmerman, did have a gun, did indeed kill the other, who was indeed unarmed.
Duke is a poor comparison as the dna evidence there wouldn't help here much. This development really doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. A fight broke out, that much is obvious. We still don't know who approached who or what else occurred that night. We're going to need some witnesses or forensics here, especially the state of martins body, which I hope to see soon. This case, is far from closed.A fight broke out between a guy the media wants to paint as a killer with a gun and an unarmed person. Bullets weren't the first thing that happened in that fight. And you're not sure who approached who?
Seems kinda obvious to me that if the guy with the gun had started the fight, the bullets would have been the first course of action.
The only thing that's obvious right now is that a fight broke out. We really don't know what was in Zimmermans mind that night -he could have been our looking for a dust up and things broke down, martin could have been waiting for him in the shadows. Nothing is obvious yet unless you are looking at things from the perspective of someone who wants a fast acquittal - or max guilty verdict. Let things play out further. It is also very important to note that the story is going to be slanted to an extent because one party is dead and cannot refute what is being said in court.
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It's even possible, given the way the law works, that both parties were justified under this law to defend themselves from perceived danger.
This is sort of hilarious, if you think about it.
How does this change the fact that Zimmerman was told NOT to go after Martin?
It doesn't. It is possible though that Zimmerman did attempt to return to his vehicle and that is when the encounter occurred.
How does this change the fact that Zimmerman was the one that escalated the conflict?
I'm not exactly sure if we can claim it is a "fact". It is a possibility, but at this point is not a "fact" (as far as we know).
Maybe Martin inflicted the wounds trying to defend himself from Zimmerman?
It might have certainly happened that way.
Witnesses are starting to change their stories, apparently en mass. Calls of witness intimidation are being made on both sides of the issue.
This is an unlawful prosecution in the first place. Zimmerman is overcharged, and only a group of lunatics would convict him of anything.How did they go from not having enough evidence to charge him at all, to charging him with second degree murder anyway?
Asking someone what they are up to isn't a crime. Following someone and observing their activities isn't either.Messing up someones face is however, and it is obvious that Martin attacked Zimmerman. The only injuries present on his body i am told were bloody knuckles. Also,911 dispatchers are not police, and can't "order" anybody to do anything. Martin was the only criminal involved in this whole incident.
Last I heard, the only obvious injuries on Martin's body were the bullet wound (of course) and a cut on one finger. I did not hear that there was any obvious damage to his knuckles. This doesn't mean he wasn't the attacker, I just don't think that his knuckles were bloody, last I heard.
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This is an unlawful prosecution in the first place. Zimmerman is overcharged, and only a group of lunatics would convict him of anything.How did they go from not having enough evidence to charge him at all, to charging him with second degree murder anyway?
Asking someone what they are up to isn't a crime. Following someone and observing their activities isn't either.Messing up someones face is however, and it is obvious that Martin attacked Zimmerman. The only injuries present on his body i am told were bloody knuckles. Also,911 dispatchers are not police, and can't "order" anybody to do anything. Martin was the only criminal involved in this whole incident.
It's blatantly obvious that he was charged not because of the evidence but from political pressure from Obama, Holder, and Jesse, Al, and the other extremely racist race baiters.
It's blatantly obvious that he was charged not because of the evidence but from political pressure from Obama, Holder, and Jesse, Al, and the other extremely racist race baiters.This is an unlawful prosecution in the first place. Zimmerman is overcharged, and only a group of lunatics would convict him of anything.How did they go from not having enough evidence to charge him at all, to charging him with second degree murder anyway?
Asking someone what they are up to isn't a crime. Following someone and observing their activities isn't either.Messing up someones face is however, and it is obvious that Martin attacked Zimmerman. The only injuries present on his body i am told were bloody knuckles. Also,911 dispatchers are not police, and can't "order" anybody to do anything. Martin was the only criminal involved in this whole incident.
unless either of you were there, this is nothing more than opinion. There is motive for Zimmerman to lie, as there is a dead body involved and precious little on his side for who started what other than his word against that of a corpse. Murder 2 is a bit lofty, but the prosecution has yet to rest. It has been estimated that half the evidence had been seen so far.
This is an unlawful prosecution in the first place. Zimmerman is overcharged, and only a group of lunatics would convict him of anything.
Right. Because its completely impossible that anyone might object to an armed "concerned citizen" running after someone minding their own business, detaining them, and then shooting them when they resisted "arrest"
How did they go from not having enough evidence to charge him at all, to charging him with second degree murder anyway?
They found someone higher up the food chain that either had a modicum of sanity, knew the actual law, or didn't owe his daddy ex judge a favor.
Asking someone what they are up to isn't a crime. Following someone and observing their activities isn't either.
Blocking them is. Zimmerman got in between Martin and his intended destination.
Messing up someones face is however and it is obvious that Martin attacked Zimmerman.
Its obvious zimmerman wasn't doing too well in the fisticuffs portion of the evens. That's no reason to say that Martin was the aggressor though.
Messing up someone's face is perfectly legal in florida if you have reasonable cause that they are out to harm or rob you. Creepy old dude following you for 4 blocks in his car and then running down a dark alleyway after you is a damn good reason for thinking they're going to cause you immediate harm.
The only injuries present on his body i am told were bloody knuckles. Also,911 dispatchers are not police, and can't "order" anybody to do anything. Martin was the only criminal involved in this whole incident.
Martins crime was what exactly? Zimmerman was displaying more likely hood of criminal activity than Martin was. If Zimmerman is justified in running after martin and detaining him then Martin is just as entitled to detain zimmerman violently.
Interesting. Seems we all have differing opinions on what exactly happened that night. Regardless, i haven't heard any account from any witness saying that Zim chased Martin down. Considering the size and shape of the guy i find the assertion laughable.
The only reason Zimmerman was charged is because of the media smear campaign spearheaded by racist nitwits like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. Truth be told, Zimmerman took a thug off the street. Guess Mr. No Limit Ninja shouldn't have brought Skittles to a gunfight.
Considering Martin wasn't guilty of doing anything but walking home from the store and talking on his cellphone, he shouldn't have been in a gunfight in the first place.
Well before stories were changed,witnesses placed Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding his face in. Sounds like a good reason to shoot to me. Nothing anybody can say will convince me that Martin couldn't have possibly escaped from Zimmerman, if he was even accosted by him.
Race isn't an issue as far as i am concerned, as hard as the media tried to distort the facts and make it one. It was self defense in my opinion.
Assault and battery=crime
Asking someone what they are up to=not crime
Following someone and observing their activities in public= also not crime
When you attack someone and get the upper hand, if that person happens to be armed expect to get force applied to you. If Martin was so worried about GZ why didn't he call police himself? Because criminals don't call the police.
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Well before stories were changed,witnesses placed Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding his face in. Sounds like a good reason to shoot to me. Nothing anybody can say will convince me that Martin couldn't have possibly escaped from Zimmerman, if he was even accosted by him.
Race isn't an issue as far as i am concerned, as hard as the media tried to distort the facts and make it one. It was self defense in my opinion.
Assault and battery=crime
Asking someone what they are up to=not crime
Following someone and observing their activities in public= also not crime
When you attack someone and get the upper hand, if that person happens to be armed expect to get force applied to you. If Martin was so worried about GZ why didn't he call police himself? Because criminals don't call the police.
Here is the problem with everything you said...what if Zimmerman grabbed Martin hoping to basically sit on him until the police came but Martin, not knowing this guy's intentions at all, defended himself? What if while defending himself he got the upper hand and Zimmerman then shot him? If Zimmerman grabbed him, Martin had every right to "stand his ground" and fight back. All we have is Zimmerman's word that Martin attacked first. Zimmerman has every reason to leave out a detail like "I grabbed his arm".
If somebody aggressively grabbed me at night I would fight back without even thinking.
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If somebody aggressively grabbed me at night I would fight back without even thinking.
Well, you're obviously a thug, then! And if you're wearing a hoodie, you should be shot on general principle, because obviously no Law-Abiding Decent Folk (TM) would do so!
Indeed. As I pointed out earlier, you seem to be forgetting that Zimmerman has motive to lie.
Well before stories were changed,witnesses placed Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding his face in. Sounds like a good reason to shoot to me. Nothing anybody can say will convince me that Martin couldn't have possibly escaped from Zimmerman, if he was even accosted by him.
Race isn't an issue as far as i am concerned, as hard as the media tried to distort the facts and make it one. It was self defense in my opinion.
Assault and battery=crime
Asking someone what they are up to=not crime
Following someone and observing their activities in public= also not crime
When you attack someone and get the upper hand, if that person happens to be armed expect to get force applied to you. If Martin was so worried about GZ why didn't he call police himself? Because criminals don't call the police.Here is the problem with everything you said...what if Zimmerman grabbed Martin hoping to basically sit on him until the police came but Martin, not knowing this guy's intentions at all, defended himself? What if while defending himself he got the upper hand and Zimmerman then shot him? If Zimmerman grabbed him, Martin had every right to "stand his ground" and fight back. All we have is Zimmerman's word that Martin attacked first. Zimmerman has every reason to leave out a detail like "I grabbed his arm".
If somebody aggressively grabbed me at night I would fight back without even thinking.
Well before stories were changed,witnesses placed Martin on top of Zimmerman pounding his face in. Sounds like a good reason to shoot to me.
A few blows to the noggin are NOT a reason to SHOOT someone, especially someone you ran after on a dark night. If you have the desire to run down and detain teenagers with no badge or authority you can't really be surprised if some of them doubt your your intentions and fight back.
Take your beating like a man, put an ice pack on it and chalk it up to experience.
Nothing anybody can say will convince me that Martin couldn't have possibly escaped from Zimmerman, if he was even accosted by him.
The very stand your ground law that you're championing with Zimmerman is half the reason Martin didn't have to leave.
There's no scenario where that looks good for Zimmerman. The position of his car, and where the fight occurred are not speculation. Zimmerman left his car and followed Treyvon Martin on foot.
You can't ask me to believe that after a pursuit in a car, and then on foot, Zimmerman just for no reason decided to return to the car he left? How does zimmerman go from follow follow follow to Run away?
When you attack someone and get the upper hand, if that person happens to be armed expect to get force applied to you.
Ok, so someone runs after me on the street and grabs me. I think I'm getting attacked, turn around and punch them in the face.
They started the fight, but now that its not going the way they planned they can shoot me? WTH.
If Martin was so worried about GZ why didn't he call police himself? Because criminals don't call the police.
Because young black people don't call the police. There are few situations where the addition of white police is going to help a black man facing a white attacker. The white guy can just blame everything on the black guy and the police will buy it.
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Truth be told, Zimmerman took a thug off the street. Guess Mr. No Limit Ninja shouldn't have brought Skittles to a gunfight.
And you're the one calling others racist nitwits? Takes one to know one I guess.
But if I'm alone, getting attacked by someone I don't know, whose intentions I don't know, I am not going to let him render me helpless if there's anything I can do about it. It's fairly hard to kill some in a fight, but it's easy to kill someone who's unconscious or otherwise not able to resist. Especially if I've got a gun he can use.
If, as Zimmerman claims, he was pinned down screaming and Martin wasn't stopping, then he had reason to fear for his life and that part of the self-defense claim is valid.
If you start the fight you cannot claim self defense.
776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Once you're on top of someone in a fistfight you kind of have a tiger by the tail. There's no way to really disengage without leaving yourself open.
Zimmerman ran after someone that was just minding their own business. Of course they're going to beat the snot out of you if you catch them.
People do not just throw a switch from "Oh my god he's going to kill me" to "i think I've beaten him enough I can stop now" especially when they're taken by surprise.
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If somebody aggressively grabbed me at night I would fight back without even thinking.Well, you're obviously a thug, then! And if you're wearing a hoodie, you should be shot on general principle, because obviously no Law-Abiding Decent Folk (TM) would do so!
Yep that's me. By day I am a 33 year old scientist but by night I am a street thug (wearing a green lantern hoodie).
At this point, we'll see what the jury decides; given that it's Florida, my hopes are not so high. (Still smarting over the Mike Diana/Boiled angel case here.)
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I would also like to point out that from what I understand the altercation took less than a minute (according to Martin's gf's cell phone records and Zimmerman's 911 call and witness 911 calls). Martin was not a prize fighter and he has no history of getting into fights. I have a good 50lbs on Martin - I can't imagine a 17 year old kid that is inexperienced at fighting besting me to the point that I feared my life was in danger and that I must end his by shooting him point blank in the chest (there are so many other non-life threatening places to shoot).
So what does clause (2a) mean then? That he should just go limp and hope Martin eventually decides as you put it: "i think I've beaten him enough I can stop now"?
Yes. Because martin started the fight He doesn't have another legal option.(or imho another moral one) You cannot be both the aggressor in a fist fight AND the person who escalates the fist fight to a gun fight. One or the other but not both.
The other option lets me run up to people in the street, punch them, wait for their return fist to the head and then shoot them.
He's down on the ground being beaten, so the "exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger" condition is fulfilled
He could have stayed in his car. He could have left martin alone. He could have waited for the police. He didn't TRY any reasonable means to avoid danger.
Yeah, but Jeff, in Florida they've got "stand your ground" so exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger is a non-issue.
Not saying I'm gonna move there or anything, it's a mess.
It's possible that a fist fight would never be considered cause to "reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm", but I'm not at all sure I'd buy that
I've been in fist fights like that, and I really did think my life was in danger, I just didn't live in an "open-carry" state. (We both walked away.)
It's been said many times, and has little baring on the court case, but Martin wasn't doing anything aside from walking home (that's a fuzzy-edged concept too) with a bag of skittles in his pocket.