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I'm thinking of starting next week a workshop teaching gamers how to be a great roleplayer. Our association already has a workshop going on how to teach gamers how to be a great DM. What are your favorite three websites that teach someone how to be a great player? Do you know of any books on the subject?
I'm thinking one or two tips per one hour training session should be enough for one meeting?
What are the subjects I should cover each workshop?
What are some of the greatest tips you've learned about being a great gamer?
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Bring your enthusiasm. The game is fun. Be fun. Imagine your character and do what they would do.
IRL, we don't have swords, spells, or other fantasy abilities. Get inside your character's head, and try to play him or her in that context.
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It's easy to point out what not to do. It's harder for me to point out what to do. Nonetheless, here are some things that I believe to my very core about Pathfinder play and how to be a good roleplayer.
#1: Character over Class: I believe that character comes before class and 'role'...and it's not even close. It's how your interpret how your character would do or react to situations and stimuli that is important to me: not your class or what others think you should do.
Nothing makes me sadder than a guy sitting down at the table thinking "I'm a fighter so I need to X, Y, or Z." Or someone who introduces themselves as "I'm an archer." They truly don't get it...they aren't roleplaying. They are moving a joystick for paper version of the game Gauntlet. Roleplaying is having a character with motivations, feelings, quirks, styles, and whatever else...it's not about being a 'fighter'.
I want to play with characters who's class and build I *NEVER* know...but who's motivations and actions are a part of a larger being with feelings and emotions.
Roleplaying is about putting the expectations of others behind and concentrating solely on the character that you want to play and then weaving that vision into the game. Roleplaying is not about talking in a funny voice or having a perfect mini for your character but about how you interact with others *as* your character.
#2: Real Motivation: Having 'real' motivation for your character is important. Truly important....as important as anything. An answer to the question: "Why are you here risking your life?" I want to play with characters who truly believe that they need to save the Princess/World/McGuffin because they have real motivations for wanting to do so...and they should be interesting and relevant.
Kyson Tirc is in a Savage Tide because his monastery bosses told him to "do stuff" or they won't let him back to his true love: scribing the works of Sarenrae.
Appario Lind is dealing with a Council of Thieves but very much wants to make himself into a Merchant Prince...and fights with Abadar's blessing to create a safe and stable civilized city for him to build his Empire.
Tristain the Chalker has been through many unsuccessful attempts to save Korvosa from a terrible Curse...but he keeps trying because he loves Korvosa that much.
#3: It's a Social Game: Pathfinder is a social group game and that, by definition, means that roleplaying cannot be solo or an isolated endeavor. Within your playing good roleplayers will find ways to include others or give other players options and opening for interaction. Great roleplayers create these connections and allows and encourages others to shine and do fun and cool stuff.
If you've built a character that is overpowered for your group, unduly shines and excludes others, or one that is designed to cause problems for your GM? You've failed. You're not good, you're bad.
This isn't about roleplay vs. minmax. It's about forgetting the social nature of the game altogether. Roleplayed or not, MinMaxed or not, any character that doesn't have options for interactions and sharing the spotlight with others (including and especially the GM), is a bad one.
This is a social game and that needs to be honored with every character and in every build.
#4: Perfection sucks: Don't ever play or build perfect characters: they are boring. Build characters that are 'broken' and 'imperfect'...that have real flaws and inabilities. Great roleplayers aren't afraid of imperfections: but rejoice and revel in them.
Give yourself room to grow and improve over the life of your character. If you roleplay your character as perfect, how are you going to grow and change over time? How are you going to mature? Where will you go from there?
The more flaws and pieces of interest you give a character, the more chances your teammates and GM will have to hook onto, interact with, and find areas of growth. Conflict, especially good-natured conflict, adds interest and tension.
By not being perfect, you allow for those situations to exist. Build them in as you think about your character. Your group will find room for humor and fun therein, conflict and decisions: stuff that makes campaigns great.
#5: Roleplay over rules. Roleplay first, rules second. Every time. Rules considerations second to the concept of what your character would do/wants to do. Figure out first how and why your character would be doing something...then work on the rules to make it happen. Not the reverse.
RAW doesn't exist. Work with your GM to find RAI as it relates to your character.
#6: Separation of IC vs OOC. I believe that there is a separation in game terms between In-Character and Out-of-Character knowledge. Roleplaying is about separating game terms from your in-character actions.
For example: In character, your characters have no idea what differentiates a 'paladin' from a 'cleric' from a 'holy warrior'. There is no such thing as "Divine Grace" to the average person in Golarion. There is only that some holy warriors seem to resist spells well. Or that a particular holy warrior can almost smell evil.
My characters would never call someone a 'paladin' or 'druid'...for those are likely to be out-of-game terms. But 'holy warrior' and 'treehugger' might be more appropriate.
For example #2: In our world, there is something called a "Barbarian"...it's a class with rage, fast movement and whatever else. In the game world, "Barbarian" means nothing. The word "barbarian" can mean any sort of uncouth fighting type who might use any sort of weapon or combat style.
* * *
For when your group is playing their characters together: therein lies to the path to Roleplay Nirvana. I think I've been there a few times...I'd like to go back again.
-Pain
Edit: #7: Trust: Ah piddlespot...how did I almost forget this? Roleplaying doesn't work if your players don't trust you...and you don't trust your fellow players. A *huge* part of roleplaying is trusting your fellow players to respond in kind, not take in-character things too seriously, and understand this is a game.
Trust:
Trust your GM to play along and not (unfairly) penalize you for roleplaying.
Trust your fellow players to play along with you.
Give *your* trust to your fellow players and create an environment for roleplaying.
-Pain
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I'm curious why you thought I needed to be told that, considering how I've always maintained that you must ensure you mesh with the group.
Of course, if every other player speaks 'rules first, roleplay second', that means you have to too, or find a new group.
I dunno, TOZ. I just think of you when I think of Stormwinding.
I'm goofy like that.
-Pain
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I think a good 1/2 hour should be spent on how not to look like a dickweed when you're yapping about what a great roleplayer you are to the only person in the room who even cares.
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I dunno, TOZ. I just think of you when I think of Stormwinding.
Besides, Stormwinding is saying 'you brought a mechanically strong character, you must not be able to roleplay'. What you said was 'you brought a character that doesn't fit the playstyle, and that's not good'.
Of course, a min-maxed character isn't automatically out of place in a non-min-maxed party. The part that makes him out of place is the player not giving those 'options for interactions and sharing the spotlight' to the other players.
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Really nice post. I mostly agree with it. A few minor quibbles, pointed out below. :)
Or someone who introduces themselves as "I'm an archer."
I agreed with most of this paragraph, but... someone who introduces themselves, saying "I'm an archer..." as part of their introduction? I can see as being in character, and good role-playing, for some personalities a player may create. 'Archer' is a term quite likely to be known and used in character... It's like someone introducing themselves, saying "hi, I'm Joe, and I'm a soldier..." So--can be wrong, if the player is forgetting everything else about the character's personality, background and all that (or never thought up anything about the character's personality beyond the mechanics)... can be okay, if it's the character introducing himself by stating his 'profession'.
Also, since it's a term doubtless used by people in the game world-- saying "I'm an archer" is not necessarily a statement of what 'class' the character is... it's a statement that the character uses a bow and and thinks he's pretty good at it.
The more flaws and pieces of interest you give a character...
Well, I kind'a agree with the paragraph this quote was taken from, and I kind'a don't. I agree that perfection is boring... real people and good fictional heroes aren't perfect, and wouldn't be interesting if they were... at the same time, it's one thing to make a character "human", with some reasonable quirks and flaws, interesting background, complex motivations that make sense... it's another thing to insert all kinds of flaws into your character that make him/her downright ineffective in the game, because they limit his/her actions too much. It's also, IMO, a bad thing to give your characters too many flaws that represent glaring, massive vulnerabilities that are going to be used to take your character down and leave the whole party screwed, time after time. Some of that may be exaggerating the extent a little bit... but the point is, interesting flaws-- usually good. Flaws that make you too vulnerable and/or ineffective? Not so good.
So don't go overboard on the "needing imperfections" principle.
Last-- considering the source of the terms, I have to disagree with you a little bit on how people might describe certain characters: Paladin, Druid, Cleric, Bard, and a few other labels nominally used for certain classes are quite likely, given their roots, to also be terms people in the game world would be familiar with and would use-- it's just that, in character, they don't refer to the 'class' that exists in game-mechanics. Someone called a 'Paladin' is simply a particularly honorable, "paragon of goodness"-style (in people's eyes) knight (but need not necessarily belong to the Paladin class mechanically); a Druid is a priest of certain nature-worshiping religions; a Cleric is a "man of the church" (Priest, Deacon, Friar, whatever-- they were all referred to as 'Clerics' in the Middle Ages-- that's where Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson got the class name from); and a Bard is a storyteller, composer and performer of epic songs and poems, and a lorekeeper and historian (none of these, as in-character terms, are necessarily applied to characters who actually belong to the mechanical class with that name-- it doesn't rule out the use of the words in the game world).
Great post overall though, even though I found a few issues to quibble with a little bit.
If no one likes a dirty mechanic, I can assure that no one likes a filthy thespian either.
Wanna be a better roleplayer? I offer this one bit of wisdom; put yourself in your character's shoes. Think about his or her motivations, not yours. Oh yeah, and get off your high horse while you're at it. Just because you like your style of play, someone else may not (and doesn't have to.)
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I can't give you any advice about websites. And I am not enough of an egotist to claim to be a great role-player. If I do okay, it's because I'm given a valid chance to build an in-depth character in an imaginary world full of wonder.
I can do this, though:
1. Agree with the spirit of what Painlord's trying to convey.
2. Remind myself that the most fun I have with roleplaying is suprisingly when I'm trying to imagine how the character really interacts with the world between sessions.
3. Realize that character development takes time.
The usual "don't be a jerk" reminder may also need to apply.
A note on character development taking time: for CotCT I started with a human female rogue. I ended up with a half-orc male ninja by the start of the next campaign. So far s/he's my favorite of all the characters I've played over the years.
Let's take a step back for a moment and let me help you all with a little more focus on what I'm looking for. Everyone PLEASE REPLY to this next comment:
Most of the players in my association (137 local members) are poor gamers (in regards to role playing) or never played RPG. Most of them will be playing D&D 3.5/4.0 or Pathfinder. What I'm looking for is to start from the basics and build from there. This means starting with simple concepts and building on each previous workshop. What should the first 5 work shops be about? I'm assuming only 1-2 main points each one hour long session, with several sub-points for the 1-2 main points. Obviously, you would need a hand out to help the players remember all the finer details
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...concentrating solely on the character that you want to play and then weaving that vision into the game.
I would modify this statement...
Really great roleplaying includes the competency of "listening" to what others at the table are saying/doing in-character, and responding to those characters, npc, the context situation, milieu, in ways that provide dramatic verisimilitude to actually being there. Sometimes, the lost art of "realizing one's character vision through interaction" is lost. Its not always about driving, but also integrating, supporting, or openly engaging in debate with an eye toward resolution in ways that leave all the characters whole and still motivated to quest together.
For example, I could try to "show my character's resentment toward magic" by continually saying, "I dislike magic" but preferrably, the great roleplayer looks for an instance of magic in-game, such as a possession on another character or npc and then engage in some open dialogue with them about it. This shows awareness of others, and connects the PCs disposition to some contextual game element. In short, its not "solely" about focusing on one's character, but rather realizing that character in context.
EDIT: As an afterthought... really GREAT roleplayers develop, over time, character developments (expansions, recoils, or change) based on the influences of others, the game story, and show growth within characters. So again, its not "solely" about the vision you go in with, but rather the organic development within the actual dialogue and character choices over the course of adventures.
Workshop 1 - Character Concept
Point 1: You are not a skeleton.
Your skeleton is not you. It's only a part of what makes you who you are. This is the same thing as letting the character sheet define what the character is. The character sheet just says what the character can do within the rules. Your character has wants, desires, fears, interests, family, friends, favorite haunts, old flames, old enemies, memories, etc. These are what make the character unique. Good roleplaying can't exist without fleshing out some of these features. You want to come up with not only a character concept for the crunch but also a character concept that fits the world and the group.
Point 2: Communication Breakdown!
One of the reasons why groups fail to roleplay is that they don't talk to each other before they make characters. One person ends up building a character that's going to inevitably steal the show, but be completely ineffective at combat. Make sure the group doesn't just cover the crunch of party roles but also talks about why they'd work together. Create a combined history for your group.
Is that what you are looking for?
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...concentrating solely on the character that you want to play and then weaving that vision into the game.I would modify this statement...
Really great roleplaying includes the competency of "listening" to what others at the table are saying/doing in-character, and responding to those characters, npc, the context situation, milieu, in ways that provide dramatic verisimilitude to actually being there. Sometimes, the lost art of "realizing one's character vision through interaction" is lost. <snip>
Excellent add, Pax. Right on.
-Pain
Painlord's Point #3 (Social Game) is important. I'd change the emphasis a little and make the point that it is a TEAM game.
A good role playing experience does not involve one player winning at the expense of another. Or, being so focused on themselves that they negatively impact the experience of others. I'm sure we've all, in the past, either quit a game because one person just made it no fun, or someone else in the group quit for the same reason.
In a self-centered, it's all about me society (social media has helped this mushroom), Role-Playing brings people together to have a group focus in accomplishing goals. I'd wager this is going to be a somewhat new or different experience for quite a few of these people. And it takes a different mindset. Good of others and good of all: it's not just about ME!
Workshop 1 - Character Concept
While I totally agree with your idea of what a character is, and that that should definitely be one of the first workshops. My personal view of what that first workshop should be is: "Why am I here?" Not why am, I, a casual, semi-interested gamer at this workshop. Why am I here at this gaming table? To me this has to be the start because I've sat down with a bunch of players at many different tables, and we all thought the same thing: "I'm going to have some fun gaming." Guess what? Your idea of fun gaming and my idea of fun gaming might be totally different, and it behooves everyone at the table to establish why you are all there first. Why? Because if Jimbob is only here to get away from his nagging wife and screaming kids for a couple hours every month, he's going to have a vastly different idea of what kind of fun should be had in comparison to Joebob. Joebob is at the table because he is a powergamer, knows every rule and how it's applied, and wants to make sure that no one at the table goes outside the rules. Hopefully it wouldn't surprise anyone to learn that these two gamers are probably not going to be having the same kind of fun. Does that mean that they cannot successfully game at the same table? Depends on each of their definitions of successful gaming. Which goes back to the original question, and absolutely impregnates it with multiple demon-children worth of meaning. WHY am I here? In order to answer that question it requires you to take a good hard look at some very specific reasons why you have come to the table, and it must be answered truthfully and publicly in order to create more successful (happy, and fun) gaming experiences.
Why is it so important? I'll tell you why? Because if Sally is only at the table because there's a boy she likes in the group (which I know goes against every stereotypical narrative of gamers and their dating habits) and she's uninterested in the actual game, then that affects everybody. If Sally wants to smooch with Joebob, then everyone at the table needs to know that's the only reason she's there. Chances are, the whole game would be better served if she'd just take a flying leap into the cold reality of dating rejection.
That's a great point, MW. I was just making the assumption that anyone taking a roleplaying workshop would be there because they want to game, not because they fear dating rejection.
That's a great point, MW. I was just making the assumption that anyone taking a roleplaying workshop would be there because they want to game, not because they fear dating rejection.
That's true. Only hard-core, still-living-in-my-parent's-basement gamers fear dating rejection, and they would never stoop so low as to go to a how to be a better roleplayer seminar. In fact they've probably already written a long diatribe about what it means to be a good roleplayer and spread it throughout several postings (under an alias of course) across some messageboard somewhere that is frequented by people who are likewise hardcore into gaming.
:D :P
Wait... I think I just made fun of myself.
On a more serious note. I get it. My point really was that there a lot of people that get into gaming because it looks "fun." What they don't realize is that, unfortunately, unlike many other social hobbies, this one has the potential to get "unfun" in a hurry if everyone at the table has a different agenda. It's not like joining a chess club where everybody wants to get better at chess, and the object is to win. In RPGs winning means having fun. It's one of those weird things where the game and the social environment cross over, and you judge your success on how much fun you had.
Workshop Topic: Learn to Say Yes
Saying no has a lot of negative consequences. First off, there is scientific evidence that social rejection is registered in the brain in a similar manner to physical pain. Rejection literally hurts.
Saying "no" at the table and flat out rejecting the idea can stall or halt the creative process that is going on. If you've built up some momentum, saying no slows it down, if not flat out stopping it. If an idea is very unworkable, be ready to look for the positive part of it. Ask the person a question and redirect their creativity, but don't flat out reject them.
In experienced players, I often see a lot of no's when they interact with each other. It's kind of like watching two kids playing cowboys and indians and neither is willing to admit defeat.
"I shot you"
"No, you didn't, I shot you"
"Nu-uh"
Learning to say "yes and..." helps keep the story moving forward and the creative juices flowing. This is a common technique for improv acting on stage as well. The "and" is important, it's a positive word, it adds something. If you use "but" you are taking something away, it's a negative word. The thing is, you can pretty much say the exact same thing with either word, so why not just use "and"?
"I shoot you"
"Yes, and I'm lucky the bible in my shirt pocked stopped the bullet"
vs
"I shoot you"
"Yes, but the bible in my shirt pocket stopped the bullet"
Same result in the fiction, but the first one will result in a smoother flow in the exchange of ideas back and forth, meaning a more fluid and creative game.
The game Penny for My Thoughts uses this as one of the primary mechanics and is a great format for practicing the technique.
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Workshop 1 - Character Concept
Point 1: You are not a skeleton.
Your skeleton is not you. It's only a part of what makes you who you are. This is the same thing as letting the character sheet define what the character is. The character sheet just says what the character can do within the rules. Your character has wants, desires, fears, interests, family, friends, favorite haunts, old flames, old enemies, memories, etc. These are what make the character unique. Good roleplaying can't exist without fleshing out some of these features. You want to come up with not only a character concept for the crunch but also a character concept that fits the world and the group.
Point 2: Communication Breakdown!
One of the reasons why groups fail to roleplay is that they don't talk to each other before they make characters. One person ends up building a character that's going to inevitably steal the show, but be completely ineffective at combat. Make sure the group doesn't just cover the crunch of party roles but also talks about why they'd work together. Create a combined history for your group.Is that what you are looking for?
RPGSavant (Very cool name) Yes this is what I'm looking for. For instance, I've never been a part of a gaming group that has gotten together to form a strategy about what everyone wants to play. All of my groups just picked what each person wanted to play, not whats best for the group in most instances. This is a great idea!
I'm thinking of starting next week a workshop teaching gamers how to be a great roleplayer. Our association already has a workshop going on how to teach gamers how to be a great DM. What are your favorite three websites that teach someone how to be a great player? Do you know of any books on the subject?
I'm thinking one or two tips per one hour training session should be enough for one meeting?
What are the subjects I should cover each workshop?
What are some of the greatest tips you've learned about being a great gamer?
I've got five to throw in.
1) Don't cheat at dice.
2) Relax, argue less and accept the possibility of defeat. Don't feel entitled to win all the time, ever fall for a trap or ambush or always get your way.
3) If you want to be a good role-player, then optimisation, having the best stats or magic items at this stage. It is better to say some good lines in character, than to have all the magic item slots filled.
4) To repeat, be the character, don't just bee a stat block.
5) Really getting the rules of the system comes with time (as does effective optimisation); but a truly effective roleplayer can game in any system and slip into a character with ease.
Good points on trust.
You can also start to think about playing archetypes, reading up on them in tvtropes, watching adventure films and reading great stories. I've played everything from happy go lucky and friendly fat wizards to doppelganger assassins for whom deception was the highest art. Strong-willed diplomats to half-insane veterans. Cowards are good fun, as are unhinged rogues (Tajomaru from Rashomon). Playing a chaotic can sometimes be easy, sticking to a code can be a lot more challenging.
Here are some few points which I think every great role-player should follow.
Enthusiasm: About the game, about your character, the setting, the plot and the other player's characters.
Immersion: In the setting, in your characters life, in the story. Avoid using meta game knowledge to get an advantage in the game and rather base his decisions on what is natural for his character.
Flexibility: Be flexible about your vision of your character to allow for changes which makes the character fit better into the setting and the group.
Solidarity: Willingness to share your enthusiasm with other players and not steal their thunder, but allow them to have their own place in the game, including the GM.
Growth: An ability to show how your character grows from his in-game experiences beyond new levels and abilities. Even better if he makes mechanical choices based on such experiences instead of what may be optimal from a mechanical point of view.
Characterization: Make an effort to have your character stand out by using a special voice or speech pattern, taking on minor mannerisms of your character or doing something special to make your character come alive (f.ex I once had a bard player who wrote song lyrics and poetry based upon the experiences the party had been through, and little things like finding a portrait of your character to show the other players.)
Motivation: Let fun be the motivation for gaming, not "winning" or having the most powerful character. Willingness to make in-game choices that are fun, but not necessarily optimal. making sure everyone else is having fun and stepping back if you feel your actions are somehow ruining the fun for one of the other players (including the GM).
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Here are some few points which I think every great role-player should follow.
7 points of awesome.
Good points, Mortagon. Stolen and re-posted to the PFS Boards.
Know the rules of the game.