I'm looking to create a ring of True Strike which is Use-Activated but limited on charges per day...say 5 to 10. What would the cost of this item look like?
If it's once per day and you cant control it with less than removing the ring, maybe about 10k. I'd double it per additional use.
How do you "use" a ring? Are there any preexisting use-activated rings?
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Use activated for something like this is totally out of any form of balance.
The spell is balanced around the idea that it is:
- limited to casters, 3/4 and 1/2BAB classes
- as a range of personal
- it require a action to cast
A user activated ring would bypass all three limitations and would have to "pay" for the removal of them.
Good question Bobson, I see three of them:ring of Counterspells, Evasion, Feather Fall,
Use activated still requres a standard action Diego.
And its only limited to those classes in as much as they train in UMD.
And it being personal doesn't change here other than if it had 5 uses 5 people could use it once a day or one guy 5.
So it bypasses only one limitation and only slightly.
I'm looking to create a ring of True Strike which is Use-Activated but limited on charges per day...say 5 to 10. What would the cost of this item look like?
A use-activated item activates when you use it. A use-activated lantern functions when you light it. In the case of a ring, you use it by putting it on. Command word activated works much better for a ring. But it doesn't really matter, as it won't affect the cost in this case.
First compare the item to existing items to determine its price. A +20 on attack rolls is most similiar to magical weapons. A +20 weapon would cost (+20 squared x 2000gp) 800,000 gold.(*) But you only get half the effects of a magical weapon (bonus on attacks, not on damage) so half that. 400,000 gold.
For a charges per day item, 5 charges cost the exact same as an unlimited item. So still 400,000 gold. Reducing it to 1/day drops that down to 80,000 gold.
Requires a standard action to activate, and only works on your first attack in the next round.
(*) Pathfinder lacks the 10x epic multiplier for items over 200,000 gold that 3.5 has. A True Strike ring is way more expensive in 3.5.
How do you "use" a ring? Are there any preexisting use-activated rings?
Ring of the Ram,Ring of Chamelon power, Ring of Invisibility to name a few.
For a charges per day item, 5 charges cost the exact same as an unlimited item.
This so much is why the magic item system needs an overhaul for spell effect items. It should not cost the same to make a ring that does a spell 5 times as one that can do it all day.
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Use activated still requres a standard action Diego.
And its only limited to those classes in as much as they train in UMD.
And it being personal doesn't change here other than if it had 5 uses 5 people could use it once a day or one guy 5.So it bypasses only one limitation and only slightly.
You are wrong in all your replies:
This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Use activation doesn't mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.
After donned it don't use actions.
You don't need to use UMD to use a use-activated item.
Range of personal limit it to specific caster classes. Making it a ring that can be used by anyone remove that limitation.
How do you "use" a ring? Are there any preexisting use-activated rings?Ring of the Ram,Ring of Chamelon power, Ring of Invisibility to name a few.
All command word activated.
This so much is why the magic item system needs an overhaul for spell effect items. It should not cost the same to make a ring that does a spell 5 times as one that can do it all day.
For a charges per day item, 5 charges cost the exact same as an unlimited item.
As long as there is people playing the "15 minuted adventuring day" it need to cost the same.
5 uses are more than sufficient have it always available when needed unless the GM enforce long adventuring days with plenty of encounters.
Use activated still requres a standard action Diego.
And its only limited to those classes in as much as they train in UMD.
And it being personal doesn't change here other than if it had 5 uses 5 people could use it once a day or one guy 5.So it bypasses only one limitation and only slightly.
You are wrong in all your replies:
This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Use activation doesn't mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.
After donned it don't use actions.
You don't need to use UMD to use...
Read my bolded part and read the rings i listed for bobson all require activation.
As to the personal part i can make scrolls of True Strike as a wizard and hand them to my party Paladin who has max umd he can cast them all day long.
A Ring of Protection would be use-activated. So would a Ring of Regeneration. Anything that has a constant effect once worn.
Noticed that command word and use activated cost the same thats what the OP is getting at an item with x uses per day.
Lvl 5 spell (Quickened True strike) * CL 9 * 2,000 = 90,000 for all-day, once-per-turn swift action goodness. Nah, I'd disallow it, and go with 400k for a +20 insight bonus to attack rolls, throw in "no miss chance" as a freebie, because paying for a +20 bonus is far past the horizon of diminishing returns.
The ring should take a standard action to activate. That is the only way I would even consider it.
If the ring is always on then it is worse than the truestrike sword.
As for a price, that would depend on whether or not the game was going to higher levels.
I'm looking to create a ring of True Strike which is Use-Activated but limited on charges per day...say 5 to 10. What would the cost of this item look like?A use-activated item activates when you use it. A use-activated lantern functions when you light it. In the case of a ring, you use it by putting it on. Command word activated works much better for a ring. But it doesn't really matter, as it won't affect the cost in this case.
First compare the item to existing items to determine its price. A +20 on attack rolls is most similiar to magical weapons. A +20 weapon would cost (+20 squared x 2000gp) 800,000 gold.(*) But you only get half the effects of a magical weapon (bonus on attacks, not on damage) so half that. 400,000 gold.
For a charges per day item, 5 charges cost the exact same as an unlimited item. So still 400,000 gold. Reducing it to 1/day drops that down to 80,000 gold.
Requires a standard action to activate, and only works on your first attack in the next round.
(*) Pathfinder lacks the 10x epic multiplier for items over 200,000 gold that 3.5 has. A True Strike ring is way more expensive in 3.5.
Hooold it.
Yeah, if it were an enhancement bonus to attack your +20 weapon example would be appropriate.
It's a 1st level spell, not a +20 weapon enhancement.
The first level spell is not use-activated, on all the time. It's a standard action to gain +20 to hit and ignore miss chance on the next attack only (the next round, barring AoO, etc).
Compare the effect with existing items, or effects. The option for an "always on bonus to attack" already has a pricing option, and that's what he used.
This approach is defined in the guidelines (yes, guidelines, not rules) for DM adjudication of custom magic items.
Regardless, I wouldn't allow +20 to anything, especially attacks, and especially always-on. Command word, fine, since you are getting exactly what the spell normally gets you.
It would be fine if it was 'always on' until discharged, and priced accordingly. It's important to remember that true strike has 2 limitations: a duration limitation and a discharge limitation. A persistent true strike effect should be able to bypass the duration limitation, but NOT the discharge limitation-that would put it waaaaay beyond a first level spell. =p
Also, if there is an existing spellcaster in your group, you should be able to get by with a ring of spell storing, and getting your friendly neighbourhood/party spellcaster to top it up as required. Or put ranks into UMD and get a wand of true strike.
Way I see it, the way to achieve what you want within the rules is to get a ring of spell-storing, get some brownie points with your party's spellcaster, then get him a level 1 pearl of power for each time per day that you want him to recharge your ring.
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The funny thing is that in my campaigns the spell 'True Strike' is almost never used because of the limitations of the spell...range personal, standard action to cast, only works on the next single attack. A caster casting this is putting his squishy self into a melee position so that he can use this to hit with something that he is probably REALLY wanting to kill his opponent with so he don't get whacked back.
Take that +20 and toss it on a anyone....like a dude with doing massive melee damage in a suit of "you most likely can't hit me anyway" metal...and I don't think you are staying within the intentions of the spell.
Then look into how many forums have a hundred different people posting about how doing so in their way would be "balanced" where everyone says "no way dude" and then make the Big Boy decision that this isn't supposed to happen in game and let it go.
Or decide that everyone else is wrong and your way should be fine and go with it, what do other people know anyway?
Can't wait to see the "A first level spell ring made my DM cry!!11!!!" thread to follow in a couple months.....
I played a 3.5 game where an arcane archer was allowed to make bracers of true strike with 50 charges in them (1 use = 1 charge) for 8k. The campaign ended soon after as the 3 other players became little more than a distraction. Mega-archer could handle most single foes, had a couple things to handle groups, and of course w/his bracers, speed and range could make ANY shot he wanted on the BBEG's.
I blame the GM. He asked me if I'd have allowed the item if I'd been running the game, I said emphatically NO. He allowed it anyway, figuring the "high cost" would dissuade the player. It didn't ,that happened, and thankfully it's all in the past now...
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A normal use of the spell True Strike (say, as a command word item), makes it so that you are making a single shot once every 2 rounds with that +20 to attack.
The idea of turning it into a use-activated item makes no sense. Use activated True Strike effect is the same as saying use activated Fireball. The duration simply doesn't jive with the way use-activated works.
If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.
True Strike has a duration of "see text", which is "until the next attack, or the end of the next round". This doesn't conform to any of those options, just like how instantaneous isn't in that list either.
It's not a valid spell for use with "Use-Activated or Continuous" pricing. Note, you can't use the permanency spell with it, nor the extend metamagic feat.
Treating it as a spell, the only option for reusability is Command Word. Which makes this a standard action to give you a +20 to hit on your next attack before the end of your next round.
This is how the spell was balanced, and how it could remain balanced as a magic item.
"+20 on every attack" or even for a limited number of attacks per day (but still all in a full attack if you wanted) is nothing like the spell itself, and is more like a weapon enhancement for purposes of "always on".
Pricing it as half the weapon enhancement (and ignoring any sane limits to bonuses to attack), forces the price into an astronomical range.
400k doesn't even take into account some factors:
- Insight bonus instead of enhancement bonus (stacking benefits increases the price, see AC and saves)
- Ignores miss chance
I'd probably price this at 1 million or better, which tells me that this is artifact level of power, and nothing that should just be allowed to be crafted on a whim.
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I think as an artifact it could be neat. Something that gave a person the effect of Nicholas Cage's character in the movie Next (IMDB link).
+20 to all attacks, saves, AC, skill checks, etc. All insight bonus, and ignore all miss chances, etc.
Put it in the hands of a commoner who becomes corrupted with the power involved, and you've got yourself a good BBEG. Make it have some "terrible cost" or make it so that the only way to defeat the BBEG is to destroy the artifact... I mean, you don't want this to get into the hands of the players (unless this is end game, and you are ending the campaign with this anyways).
Ring of Quickened True Strike:
Level 5 spell, CL9, unlimited use
Let's say it's use-activated, but special: swift action.That's 90k for a +20 once per round.
Let's see you get that past your GM.
This sort of ring would be the most powerful combat item in the game. It would be more powerful than artifacts.
90,000g.... sure.
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Ring of Quickened True Strike:
Level 5 spell, CL9, unlimited use
Let's say it's use-activated, but special: swift action.That's 90k for a +20 once per round.
Level 5 spell x CL 9 = 45
45 x 2000 = 90,000Then you forgot to multiply for the duration of the spell. A spell with a duration in rounds is multiplied by 4, but True Strike only lasts for 1 round, so at minimum I would adjudicate that to be a x6, but I would probably go with x8.
Minimum cost = 360,000 (x4)
More likely = 540,000 or 720,000
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No such thing. There's a reason even WotC stayed away from such an item.
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Any such item would require a standard action to activate, and function just as if the wearer had used a scroll of true strike. It would be the user's next attack, meaning on the following round. Plus it would take up an item slot.
Not at all broken, any more than a character dipping into wizard and preparing nothing but true strike in all his slots is.
even with the swift action. 90K is a lot of gold. nearly double the price of a +5 weapon and nearly quadruple the price of +5 armor for +20 to a single attack per round. plus there are other rings i would consider a whole lot sooner for that ring slot. ring of sustenance, ring of protection, ring of feather fall, ring of freedom of movement, ring of counterspells, a hypothetical ring of continuous mind blank or death ward, even a ring of blinking or invisibility would be better.
the only thing i really see true strike really being useful for is landing that essential combat manuever that will make the encounter a whole lot easier. and that is a rare situation. otherwise, it's wasted on making sure your first attack hits.
Just the CMB use of a ring like this would make it overpowered alone.
But beyond that, what a true strike ring does is make things like bane arrows or imbued arrows near auto-hits.
It's an awesome magic item. I might be convinced to allow a 400K ring with 5/day uses which take a standard action to cast, but a swift action 90K ring with endless uses? Seriously?
I'm looking to create a ring of True Strike which is Use-Activated but limited on charges per day...say 5 to 10. What would the cost of this item look like?
True strike has an unusual target and duration, so I don't think it fits into any of the usual methods. I've allowed items of true strike in my games for a long time. The method I've traditionally used is use-activated (for a weapon) or command word (for most other things), requiring a standard action, which gets you at best 1 true strike every other round, for around +3,000 gp on a weapon, or 1800 gp on a ring or similar (one you must activate with a standard attack, which means you get it your next attack during the following round, the other you activate the spell and then attack the next round, etc).
For a more fluid version, price it as a quickened true strike, which is spell level 5 * 8 * 1800, or about 81,000 gp. That would give you true strike 1/round as a swift action, and would allow you to use it during a full attack.
True strike, due to its unusual duration and such, cannot be made into a permanent magic item, because it lasts until your next attack; thus if you were to make a permanent true strike ring, it would burn out on your next attack; making it expensive and arguably pretty useless.
Just the CMB use of a ring like this would make it overpowered alone.
But beyond that, what a true strike ring does is make things like bane arrows or imbued arrows near auto-hits.
It's an awesome magic item. I might be convinced to allow a 400K ring with 5/day uses which take a standard action to cast, but a swift action 90K ring with endless uses? Seriously?
Yeah, seriously. I know that sorcerers basically own face at combat maneuver bonuses due to true-strike; as they effortlessly make martial characters look like dweebs, with their +20 insight bonus to hit and longspear proficiency. Combined with the ability to self-enlarge person to give the a 20 ft. reach, sorcerers really do crush traditional warriors in the CMB department when they really want to.
Given this magic item favors warriors more than it favors spellcasters, it's no wonder why spellcasters wouldn't want warriors to have them. I mean, for 81-90k gp, it would mean warriors can pull up their weak attack, and/or bypass certain magical defenses like displacement 1/round. Heaven forbid, really, that those warriors whose options in combat only extend to whacking stuff or knocking stuff over have a 1/round option to more or less assuredly whack something or knock something over that they normally wouldn't be able to.
It might even let my players have some reprieve from the kobold sorcerers kicking their butts around. NPCs have been using true strike to shame martials since Pathfinder came out. In 3.x, it was just an attack roll. In PF, it's combat maneuvers too. Casters can be better at combat maneuvers than martials. Hybrid casters are assuredly so. Yeah, it'd be a bad idea to let martials in on it too. :P
lets look at what this "Ring" eats up.
a precious ring slot. there are many useful rings i would rather have than +20 to a single attack or combat manuever per round.
90K gold. this is almost 2 +5 weapons. this is not pocket change. it's a signifficant investment, even at 20th level.
a swift action, this also eats up any immediate actions you intend to use. so no step up, crane wing, or any of that. you only get one swift/immediate per round.
this only applies to one attack or combat manuever per round. either you guarantee a single hit, or you just wasted a swift action further confirming which would have been an automatic hit anyway. there are points where +20 is just redundant.
this has 2 sides to the coin. either the foe is that unhittable to the point you need it, or they are within the normal AC range and the +20 is wasted. the barbarian's strength surge is better once you can rage cycle. the +20 also applies to the first attack made after casting. this is either the first attack in a given round, or the first attack of oppurtunity you make. there is no save it for later option.
I'm looking to create a ring of True Strike which is Use-Activated but limited on charges per day...say 5 to 10. What would the cost of this item look like?
I'd make it usable 3x/day or 5x/day as a swift action... which means the equivalent of 3 or 5 1st level spells that have been Quickened, i.e. 3 or 5 5th level spells. That's hardly brokwn.
Ashiel, hmmmm....
You make a good point about sorcerers becoming CMB machines with true strike spontaneous casting... I suppose even wizards with pearls of power could be considered just as "broken" using the spell...
Arg.... I hate having to back up in a debate....
But you make a good point...
Not as broken as I initially thought when looked at that way. I suppose I could see it being priced less than 400K... Still not seeing 80 or 90K, but I'm getting closer...
Ashiel, hmmmm....
You make a good point about sorcerers becoming CMB machines with true strike spontaneous casting... I suppose even wizards with pearls of power could be considered just as "broken" using the spell...
Arg.... I hate having to back up in a debate....
But you make a good point...
Not as broken as I initially thought when looked at that way. I suppose I could see it being priced less than 400K... Still not seeing 80 or 90K, but I'm getting closer...
Hey, no sweat man. ^-^
80-90k is prohibitively expensive until the high teens. Even crafting it yourself for about 40-45k (depending on if it's command word/thought or not) makes it difficult to really afford along with your regular gear until post 10th level. In fact, 90k is greater than 1/4th your entire WBL until 17th level, and then it's just a little less than 1/4th your WBL.
A 20th level character is expected to have about 880,000 gp worth of gear. A swift-action true strike ring would still be more than 1/10th of your character's entire allotment. I have to say that +20 insight once per round to an attack or CMB is not that impressive. It's a low-level spell effect that wizards and sorcerers have been doing for 20 levels, and now martials have a chance to use it too.
I mean, what does it really do? It ensures a 95% chance to hit an opponent once per round, on your first attack, or grants a +20 bonus to overcome CMD, which your opponent is likely immune to due to A) flying, B) freedom of movement, C) natural weapons or items preventing or hampering disarms, D) most things you're fighting are bigger, meaner, and have more BAB than you, etc.
I really don't see why people seem to think this is so amazing. Is it because of the big numbers? Do people see that "+20" and have a spasm? O.o
No such thing. There's a reason even WotC stayed away from such an item.
Untrue. there's a true strike item in the Magic Item Compendium. Gloves or gauntlets, as I recall, and once or twice a day.
in 3.0, original Sword and Fist, there's a True Strike bow usable only by halflings. You get one shot at +20 every other round, and its a short bow.
If you enforce the standard action to activate the True Strike, it's not all that bad. If you let them True Strike and attack the same round, then you've got a Quickened True Strike, which is MUCH more powerful.
==Aelryinth
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Here's a similar thought-- is it possible to cast True Strike into a Spell Storing weapon? If so, couldn't the fighter just have the wizard cast a True Strike into his magic weapon outside combat and then save it for later? Or would this just give the enemy a +20 instead of the fighter?
Of course, this means that to successfully fire the True Strike, you need to already be able to roll well enough to hit, and thus you probably don't need the +20 anyway.
if this works, then a "ring of true strike" would probably be better off as a Spell Storing weapon.
Wouldn't work since True Strike isnt a Targeted spell.
When a spell's effect is similar to something that is priced out on a per-point bonus basis you use that, instead of anything related to the spell's own level, for pricing out the item. Since True Strike gives a +20 bonus to hit you'd look at the enhancement bonus aspect when making an item that just gives the bonus pretty much all of the time. So, look at it as though it were a weapon with a +20 enhancement bonus:
20 x 20 x 2000 = 800,000 gold and..
The CL of the item will be 3x the enhancement bonus... so... CL 60th.
Sounds about right.. it'd be an artifact, and any 60th level caster would probably want more than 800k gold for you to waste his time making you such a silly ring. He'd be busy ruling the multiverse.
I love all the different ways there are to calculate magic item prices. Makes for such amusing discussions.
As has been explained to me, that's because there are no "rules" for magic item creation of unique items. Only guidelines.
Hmm interesting, I have made a similar item before in my game in the past, but it was only able to be used 1x per day.
Ring of True Strike
Once per day as a swift action you are able to cast the spell true strike.
Quickend True Strike lv5 spell x 5 x 2000 = 50,000 gp. It is only usable once per day so divide that cost by 5 and it = 10,000 gp.
While you think about it the ring can come in VERY handy when you REALLY need to make sure an attack hits. But it is 10k gold for a once per day spell. Useful yes but worth the price when there is so much other gear you can get for 10k that will help your characters all the time? I think it would only be useful if you had the gold to spare and didn't need anything else in that price range.
Comes in VERY handy for those 'nova-strike' attacks that simply have to hit to be successful.
True Strike Gauntlets, page 144 of the MIC. Cost 3500, 1750 to create...gain a +20 insight bonus to your next attack. Standard action to activate. Note: doesn't grant the 'ignore concealment' of the actual spell, either.
Multiply cost by the number of times/day, up to 5, you want the ability usable. Probably double or triple the cost if you want to ignore concealment.
==Aelryinth
the 90'000 gold for the at will quickened command word version isn't as bad as you think.
the +20 enhancement to a weapon voodoo mike suggested would only be worth 800K if it applied to all your attacks and affected damage.
this is not a proper weapon enhancement, in fact, the value drops with the more attacks you make. the 60th level caster who make this weapon, if they were a wizard would be making 6 attacks a round. a 60th level martial would be making 12 attacks a round. this is just from base attack bonus. this doesn't factor dual wielding, rapid shot, haste, or attacks of oppurtunity.
as ashiel said, combat manuevers can be easily countered. and at 17th level (where this is affordable) the 90,000 gold pieces are wasted because combat manuevers are worthless by that time. and if you are a properly built martial. you are already dropping foes in one or two rounds on your own by then without this ring anyway.
a lot of monsters have natural weapons, which makes grapple, disarm, and steal a whole let less effective. and fliers (really frequent) cannot truly be tripped and easily stay out of grapple range. thier larger size, can go above the limit for categories before you can no longer grapple, trip, bull rush, reposition, or overrun them. so your CMB becomes useless pretty easily. most creatures you face by the time you can reasonably afford this are huge or larger. outside the cap for most PC races.
Yeah... +20 to every single attack you make, ever, anytime, isn't broken at all. /sarcasm
And what's this about 60th level characters? Game doesn't go that high in the rules... By 60th level you are basically making things up as you go. But as a yardstick to measure by, 3.5e epic levels didn't grant any more than 4 attacks per round from BAB alone.