"Balanced" Ring of True Strike


Rules Questions

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Dev's opinion on the matter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I remember that thread!


Honestly i didn't read all of this post but this is what i got from all the rules, True strike spell level 1 x Caster level 3 x 1,800 = 5,400
An item that when activated with command as a standard action will grant the effects of true strike for 3 minutes or until an attack roll is made. Usable 5 times a day.

True Strike
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next SINGLE attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.

Rolling a 1 still ends in an automatic Fail.

Now i don't understand why everyone says it cost unreal amounts more then that.

Now let's look at Cape of mountebank the example item for a command word crafted item, Level 4 spell dimension door x Level 7 minimum caster x 1,800 = 50,400 but Cape of Mountebank cost only 10,800 but then again it's only a once a day item so we have to divide the cost. Now a once a day price gets divided by 5 making the item cost only 10,080. I don’t know where the 720 gold comes from, i can only guess its from the smoke that appears in both the spot you disappear from and the spot you appear in but it's only a guess. So an item that granted True Strike once a day would cost 1080, an item that does it 10 times a day will cost 10,800 but the 5,400 original cost is for a 5 times a day item. Now if you wanted to make an item that constantly gave the Effects of the spell True Strike which i would like to remind people can only give its bonus to a SINGLE attack, not every attack you get in one turn just ONE single attack per turn, you would make it continuous which will cost level 1 spell x level 3 caster x 2,000 x 2 (for spell duration minute per level) = 12,000 and this item would only take effect when the wearer or wielder makes a SINGLE attack. Keeping in mind how long it would take to craft these items and when the players would have enough gold to pay for the materials to make these items id say this is fine and very balanced. The command word item would take 6 days of down time or 12 days of active adventuring to craft and the continuous item would take 12 days of down time or 24 days of active adventuring to craft. A party of 4 should not be able to pay for the command item till level 4 or 3 at the earliest and that item would give a +20 to hit and no miss chances for one attack a turn, every other turn, such an item would only be useful to the party till they gain enough money and time to build the continuous item that again would only be good if you don't mind only making ONE attack a turn.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

You resurrected a three year old thread that you didn't even bother to read?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gisher wrote:
You resurrected a three year old thread that you didn't even bother to read?

i dont mean to start any fights or piss anyone off, I just thought id put my two cents in the ring for others to look at it differently, just cause the post ended 3 years ago doesn't mean new players and GMs now are not still looking in to it and talking about it. I don't post often, im not saying im smarter cause im not, I just wanted to post my idea in hopes it might help. dont know why it bothered you Gisher


Better idea. Get a ring of UMD and a wand of true strike.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

cranewings wrote:
1,000,000 dollars...

1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Otherwise known as a Major Artifact

lilwashu wrote:
True strike spell level 1 x Caster level 3 x 1,800 = 5,400

Just don't do it, and if you looked at the chart to come up with that, then you didn't read the item creation rules because the chart is the last resort.


lilwashu wrote:
Gisher wrote:
You resurrected a three year old thread that you didn't even bother to read?
i dont mean to start any fights or piss anyone off, I just thought id put my two cents in the ring for others to look at it differently, just cause the post ended 3 years ago doesn't mean new players and GMs now are not still looking in to it and talking about it. I don't post often, im not saying im smarter cause im not, I just wanted to post my idea in hopes it might help. dont know why it bothered you Gisher

Sorry, my post probably reads as angry or upset, but that wasn't intended. Sometimes it is difficult to convey tone through text. I don't have any problem with people bringing back old threads to revisit old ideas. And as you say, updates can help other people who show up later and are trying to understand the game. I've updated a number of threads that way myself.

I was just confused when you started off by posting "Honestly i didn't read all of this post." It seemed odd that someone want to revisit such a specific topic, but then not bother to read the opening post. I'm thinking now that you meant something like "I haven't read through all of the posts in this thread" which is very different from the way my sleepy brain was reading it.

Anyway, I apologize for phrasing things badly. Please don't let this hold you back from posting further.


Is there a book other then the core rulebook with item creation rules? Am i missing something? The item creation rules in the core mostly speak of the craft DC, how long you can work a day, how to add material cost to the item, how to decrease the items price with other added requirements but other then that i go to the craft wondrous item section and it tells me to use the table that gives me that formula. I then created the item which costs 5,400 gold for a standard action command word activation of true strike 5 time a day. This doesn't seem to be broken to me. I also don't think such a thing is worthy of being an artifact. So what if the level 3 fighter gets +20 to hit 5 times a day, there is still the possibility of rolling a one (ive seen it happen way too often in my group with true strike) and round one is a movement plus activating the item, round two he attacks and lets say he hits and kills a minion oh well. I find this a very smart item to create not a broken one. There is also so many things a GM can do if they feel the item lets say they made it a glove is being over used, the GM can dispel it, steal it, hell have it just straight up disappear. But honestly if there are rules im not aware of could someone let me know what book they are in so I can read up on them. Im a slow learner so sorry if im frustrating anyone.


Gisher wrote:
lilwashu wrote:
Gisher wrote:
You resurrected a three year old thread that you didn't even bother to read?
i dont mean to start any fights or piss anyone off, I just thought id put my two cents in the ring for others to look at it differently, just cause the post ended 3 years ago doesn't mean new players and GMs now are not still looking in to it and talking about it. I don't post often, im not saying im smarter cause im not, I just wanted to post my idea in hopes it might help. dont know why it bothered you Gisher

Sorry, my post probably reads as angry or upset, but that wasn't intended. Sometimes it is difficult to convey tone through text. I don't have any problem with people bringing back old threads to revisit old ideas. And as you say, updates can help other people who show up later and are trying to understand the game. I've updated a number of threads that way myself.

I was just confused when you started off by posting "Honestly i didn't read all of this post." It seemed odd that someone want to revisit such a specific topic, but then not bother to read the opening post. I'm thinking now that you meant something like "I haven't read through all of the posts in this thread" which is very different from the way my sleepy brain was reading it.

Anyway, I apologize for phrasing things badly. Please don't let this hold you back from posting further.

Yes i did mean i didnt read all the posts in the thread. Its fine i just like to avoid fighting on the internet cause i find it pointless and time consuming. I agree it is very hard to convey tone through text.


lilwashu wrote:
Is there a book other then the core rulebook with item creation rules? Am i missing something? The item creation rules in the core mostly speak of the craft DC, how long you can work a day, how to add material cost to the item, how to decrease the items price with other added requirements but other then that i go to the craft wondrous item section and it tells me to use the table that gives me that formula. I then created the item which costs 5,400 gold for a standard action command word activation of true strike 5 time a day. This doesn't seem to be broken to me. I also don't think such a thing is worthy of being an artifact. So what if the level 3 fighter gets +20 to hit 5 times a day, there is still the possibility of rolling a one (ive seen it happen way too often in my group with true strike) and round one is a movement plus activating the item, round two he attacks and lets say he hits and kills a minion oh well. I find this a very smart item to create not a broken one. There is also so many things a GM can do if they feel the item lets say they made it a glove is being over used, the GM can dispel it, steal it, hell have it just straight up disappear. But honestly if there are rules im not aware of could someone let me know what book they are in so I can read up on them. Im a slow learner so sorry if im frustrating anyone.
It's in the same section:
Quote:

The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item, the GM should require using the price of the item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from the "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" lines of Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.

Example: Rob's cleric wants to create a heavy mace with a continuous true strike ability, granting its wielder a +20 insight bonus on attack rolls. The formula for a continuous spell effect is spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp, for a total of 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica, the GM, points out that a +5 enhancement bonus on a weapon costs 50,000 gp, and the +20 bonus from true strike is much better than the +5 bonus from standard weapon enhancement, and suggests a price of 200,000 gp for the mace. Rob agrees that using the formula in this way is unreasonable and decides to craft a +1 heavy mace using the standard weapon pricing rules instead.


lilwashu wrote:
Gisher wrote:
lilwashu wrote:
Gisher wrote:
You resurrected a three year old thread that you didn't even bother to read?
i dont mean to start any fights or piss anyone off, I just thought id put my two cents in the ring for others to look at it differently, just cause the post ended 3 years ago doesn't mean new players and GMs now are not still looking in to it and talking about it. I don't post often, im not saying im smarter cause im not, I just wanted to post my idea in hopes it might help. dont know why it bothered you Gisher

Sorry, my post probably reads as angry or upset, but that wasn't intended. Sometimes it is difficult to convey tone through text. I don't have any problem with people bringing back old threads to revisit old ideas. And as you say, updates can help other people who show up later and are trying to understand the game. I've updated a number of threads that way myself.

I was just confused when you started off by posting "Honestly i didn't read all of this post." It seemed odd that someone want to revisit such a specific topic, but then not bother to read the opening post. I'm thinking now that you meant something like "I haven't read through all of the posts in this thread" which is very different from the way my sleepy brain was reading it.

Anyway, I apologize for phrasing things badly. Please don't let this hold you back from posting further.

Yes i did mean i didnt read all the posts in the thread. Its fine i just like to avoid fighting on the internet cause i find it pointless and time consuming. I agree it is very hard to convey tone through text.

I've been having the same problem in person recently. I often make dumb jokes with my students, but I've had a bad case of laryngitis this week. I've improved and can speak again, but my voice is just a raspy monotone. Now every time I make a tongue-in-cheek statement I get funny looks from students. I've realized that without any ability to inflect my voice, they can't figure out that I'm being facetious.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

lilwashu wrote:
the craft wondrous item section and it tells me to use the table

No it does not.

It tells you to find a similar item or item of similar power.

If you failed to find anything similar, use the chart.

So a spell that provides and attack bonus, similar item is a +1 weapon.

So a spell that provides AC, similar item is Bracers of Armor.


James Risner wrote:
lilwashu wrote:
the craft wondrous item section and it tells me to use the table

No it does not.

It tells you to find a similar item or item of similar power.

If you failed to find anything similar, use the chart.

So a spell that provides and attack bonus, similar item is a +1 weapon.

So a spell that provides AC, similar item is Bracers of Armor.

In fairness, a +1 weapon provides attack & damage bonuses. There's no direct equivalent for a just bonus to attack item. Still, it should be pretty obvious that a +20 attack shouldn't be cheaper than a +1 att/dam.


thejeff wrote:
James Risner wrote:
lilwashu wrote:
the craft wondrous item section and it tells me to use the table

No it does not.

It tells you to find a similar item or item of similar power.

If you failed to find anything similar, use the chart.

So a spell that provides and attack bonus, similar item is a +1 weapon.

So a spell that provides AC, similar item is Bracers of Armor.

In fairness, a +1 weapon provides attack & damage bonuses. There's no direct equivalent for a just bonus to attack item. Still, it should be pretty obvious that a +20 attack shouldn't be cheaper than a +1 att/dam.

It's not even a +20 to attack. It's +20 to a single attack per turn at the expense of a move action. If you are getting three attacks per round, that's roughly equivalent to +7 to attack. It should probably be lower, because +20 will practically always shoot past the RNG, meaning in reality it isn't much different to +15 or so. Lets say it's equivalent to +6 to all attacks. It also lets you ignore concealment for an attack, but costs a swift. Lets call that a wash. Swift action True Strike every round is roughly equivalent to a +6 insight bonus. Attack bonuses aren't included on the creation chart, but going by unusually typed armor bonuses costing 2500xbonus^2, unusually typed attack bonuses should probably be the same. That comes out to...2500*6*6=...

...90,000 AKA the price of a ring of swift action true strike going by the chart.

Brilliant.


Weapon enhancement bonuses cost double the equivalent armor bonuses, so using the same multiplier for both is a silly thing to do. I could see an argument that it shouldn't be twice the unusual armor formula, but given that the attack bonus portion of an enhancement bonus is by far the most important part of it, I wouldn't say anything beneath a multiplier of 1.8 is fair to use. The ability to overcome DR is irrelevant, as they'll have magic weapons.

The main value of such a ring is that it essentially takes your iterative attacks from "might hit" to "one will hit", essentially giving an extra attack at your full BAB.

Hurray, more rocket tag.


FYI, Cracked Green Ioun Stones can give +1 to Attack and nothing else. They cost 4K. That indicates that competence bonuses to attack are 2000xbonus squared. Competence bonuses are the "common" kind of bonus to attack like Natural Armor and Deflection are for armor, which strongly suggests that Insight to Attack should cost 2.5k like Insight to AC does.


Cheapy wrote:

Weapon enhancement bonuses cost double the equivalent armor bonuses, so using the same multiplier for both is a silly thing to do. I could see an argument that it shouldn't be twice the unusual armor formula, but given that the attack bonus portion of an enhancement bonus is by far the most important part of it, I wouldn't say anything beneath a multiplier of 1.8 is fair to use. The ability to overcome DR is irrelevant, as they'll have magic weapons.

The main value of such a ring is that it essentially takes your iterative attacks from "might hit" to "one will hit", essentially giving an extra attack at your full BAB.

Hurray, more rocket tag.

OTOH, if it costs a move action, then it's "You're making 1 attack, which will hit" instead of "You're making multiple attacks at least some of which would hit".

That's not unreasonable.

If it's a swift and unlimited, you'll use it everytime unless you're a class with something useful to do with your swift, in which case it'll be rare. Swift and limited, you probably will save it for those cases when you really are missing with the first attack - or concealed foes and the like.

If it's +20 to hit to all attacks, no action required, then it's banned. :) Or just beyond what you can afford. Whatever you can afford.

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