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Well, first thing I would do is make sure that you are familiar with the stacking rules for bonuses. In order to get the higher bonuses you will need to stack smaller bonuses.
Strength - This is your bread and butter way for an extra bonus to hit, and you get the gravy of more damage to boot. Starting high is good, but at this point you are looking for anything that increases this that stacks.
Tactics in combat - Make sure you are taking advantage of the combat as a whole. For example, if you make sure you are in a flanking position (+2 to hit) and jump up on a table (higher ground +1 to hit), you are getting some good bonus rolling. Likewise, if the enemy is a position that makes them easier to hit, that is the same as a bonus to hit (prone for instance is effectively a +4 to hit).
Domains - There are some domain abilities that will help you get bonuses to hit. You probably already chose domains though I suppose.
- Animal - Gives you a handy flanking buddy
- Good - Touch of Good will give you 1/2 your cleric level sacred bonus (sacred bonuses are great since they aren't as common, so are more likely to stack).
- Law - A little more odd, but making sure you don't have a low roll is the same as a bonus to hit.
- Luck - Rolling twice on an attack certainly gives you a better chance to hit. The rerolls after level 6 come in real handy too. (while I am not a big fan of true strike you get that as a domain spell, and it most certainly gives a bonus to hit)
- Nobility - Can give a +2 morale bonus to hit for longer than other abilities give a higher bonus. Morale is a more common bonus though.
- Strength - Like Good except this gives an enhancement bonus... which is the most common type of bonus and less likely to stack.
- Sub Domain: Demon - Bonuses for both hit and dmg, but is enhancement
- Sub Domain: Heroism - +2 moral bonus to hit
Spells
- Bless - +1 morale
- Command - You can tell them to drop prone and then get the +4 to hit
- Divine Favor - +1 luck
- Magic Weapon - +1 enhancement to weapon
- Summon Monster X - Set up flanks or aid another on you to hit
- Aid - +1 morale
- Bull's Strength - +4 enhancement to str
- Hold Person - +4 to hit them AND their dex drops to 0 AND you can coup de grace them.
etc.
etc.
You can see where I am going with this. See what stacks, look at durations, you can get some insane bonuses when it is all together. And then unload on them.
Do the same things with items, and you should be set at any level.
Also keep in mind that until you are at really high levels your BAB difference with someone who is full BAB is not real significant. At first through fourth it is a +1 difference... probably outshone by differences in what you and the fighter took for STR depending on your build. Don't be afraid to fight.
Sean Mahoney
Extreme... I believe I'm seeing a trend in your posts, as well as the user name you've chosen.
Clerics are intentionally not as good with melee attacks as full BAB classes. They make up for that by having powerful spells they can cast. Many people think that clerics are the most powerful class in the game because besides having some of the most powerful spells, they ALSO have 3/4 BAB progression.
Until you reach ninth level, the BAB of a cleric is at least within 2 of a full BAB class. That can be overcome with a single "bull's strength" spell, which a cleric can self-cast on themselves.
I play a druid, which is also a 3/4 BAB progression class. Our party is currently 8th level. We are on the "slow" progression for level advancement (five years to get to level 8, so maybe "glacial" would be a better description), and in all that time I've never had an issue hitting the enemy.
If you want full BAB equivalence, then paly a full BAB class. But then you'll have other trade-offs, like not being able to cast "miracle" later in the game...
Extreme, one of the things Pathfinder publicly acknowledged to be a goal of their PF version of 3.5 was to enhance the melee classes so that they were more "balanced" compared to the caster classes. Especially cleric and druid. The result was a serious diminishment of cleric and druid melee (or combat overall) ability and an increase in what pure melee classes could do. Especially fighters.
Even so, even after all the changes, additions and deletions, clerics are still thought by many to be a superior melee class than any pure melee class simply due to their abilities to buff themselves.
My druid is a 3.5 conversion. In 3.5 she was essentially a damage machine, easily outshining the rest of the party. In fact I deliberately nerfed her to make her more comparable to the rest of the party and she still was ridiculously powerful in comparison.
After converting to PF she is much more balanced with the rest of the party. She still has major advantages in flexibility, but she is no longer the party member who could shut down ANY ENCOUNTER by going full-on nova, or wild-shaping.
And frankly, I like it better that way.
Trick to a battle cleric is three fold: extend spell, via metamagic feat and several lesser metamagic rods: domain abilities - one in particular really shines if your group is willing to "go team cleric"; timing is everything. You're correct that if you really want to keep pace - as with monks - putting your stats in STR/WIS/CON/CHA/INT/DEX order will generally get you the most with the least.
Many times your services will be required to assist the other characters rather than yourself as you are the only probable source of useful spells (remove fear, bless) that can really swing things for the entire party.
Besides, your cleric would probably much rather that the meat shield soak the first round or two of nastiness before wading in after a divine favor is cast. That command to fall over is all kinds of nasty as your entire group can hose down the victim PDQ.
If you really need an ace up your sleeve, always prepare a silence spell to cast on yourself (starting at 3rd level) so you can wreck havoc amongst bad guy spellcasters. Later, spell immunity to silence can be a life saver...
After this discussion at least I am sure I did not miss any major Pathfinder option to enhance my melee cleric.Thanks
Oh heck, don't go away thinking that! I'm no cleric specialist. In fact the only pure PF classes I've played so far are witch, druid and sorcerer. There may be ways to enhance your cleric that you've missed.
For example, a single dip into a level of fighter might give you some benefits. Lots of power users do class dips. I tend to like to stick to a single class myself. But there's some value to level dipping.
Also, the buffing can be done outside of combat if your party has a good scout. So you don't lose a combat round casting "bull's strength" which lasts minutes (ya, I know it lasted HOURS in 3.5... just another example...)
Buffing is a perfectly solid tactical maneuver, especially if your party can utilize good tactics.
When you can quicken buff spells, well, that's opening a whole new doorway...
Don't give up on the cleric, if you really want to play one. As I said, my 3/4 BAB druid does just fine in combat. She's not the crazy monster she was in 3.5, but she carries her weight, and then some.
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I'd like to weigh in on the matter, as I'm currently playing a battle cleric in PFS. I'm a cleric 5 of Gorum.
STR 21 (16 +1 level, +2 human bonus, +2 belt)
DEX 12
CON 12
INT 7
WIS 18 (16 +2 headband)
CHA 10
Feats: Toughness, Heavy Armor proficiency, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Domains: Chaos (Protean), Destruction (Rage)
I wear full plate and am pretty fierce in melee. I'll never have iterative attacks worth a damn, so full-attacking is overrated and I stay mobile. 5-foot steps get me out of threat for casting. I hit so hard that other players audited my character sheet at the first few sessions I played. 2h weapon fighting is really simple: get a high strength and power attack. Weapon Focus keeps my BAB at full levels 2-4, full BAB -1 until level 9, and PFS taps out at lvl 12 with me at full BAB -2. Domains give me nifty combat tricks: Bonus damage on destructive smites, and a situational boss debuff. At lvl 8 I'll have barbarian rage and an awesome chaos aura (all enemies must make a will save to even do what they wanted to do that round).
And when I can't (or shouldn't) be in the thick of things, I have my heals, channels, and spells. Yes, a fighter will be a better melee combatant than me... but until that fighter can 5 foot step back and lay down a hold person for the rogue to coup-de-grace, I'm not concerned about it. Until the fighter can hit a critically wounded ally with a clutch 3d8+5 Cure Serious Wounds and take no opportunity attacks getting there with Grace, I'm ok with the power balance. Until the fighter can cast Silence on himself to completely shut down a BBEG caster, I'm completely happy with my role in the party.
Also: buy wands of your buff spells. Use them right before kicking in the door, or in a bottleneck while you wait for the people who beat you in initiative (hint: that's everybody) to clear a path.
What belt gives a +2 to str and wis?
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These are all good considerations and I appreciate them. Let's say that I probably played d20 Fantasy RPG too much and I cannot enjoy anymore some aspects of the game like the ones you mentioned.
I'm not sure what this means, could you clarify?
What I am thinking is: what will I do against an enemy who has AC 40, all savings at +30, after I got hit by a successful dispel magic or even worst a disjunction? But I guess I am going off-topic here...
You'll drop power attack, cast Displacement (domain spell) on yourself, get in its face, and kick its ass with no mercy, like a good cleric of Gorum should. Even with NO BUFFS, you'll only be attacking at -3 or -4 compared to a straight fighter (assuming equal stats, same weapons, etc), so you should be able to land hits even on high-ac monsters. If not, 5 foot step out, cast True Strike (also a domain spell), next round step back in and get that hit. Or, cast that displacement on the fighter, and bless, and doom on the bad guy, and use your touch of chaos debuff to make the bad guy flub his attacks and NEVER get crits. Heal the fighter. Flank the bad guy to give the fighter flanking (or better yet, flank with the rogue). Stand 30 feet back and channel heal your party. All of these strategies work just fine even in the face of whatever horrible creature has ac 40 and +30 saves and hits you with dispels. If the bad guy is wasting actions to strip your buffs, that's fine. The rest of your team will be busy killing him.
Just a suggestion, but the old Golarion book had this:
Holy Warrior (Ex): A cleric with this ability is proficient with her deity’s favored weapon. In addition, her base attack bonus as a cleric equals her cleric level, and her cleric Hit Die becomes a d10.
Class Abilities: Some clerics think of themselves more as holy warriors than proselytizers or shepherds. For these clerics, the ability to fight trumps all other concerns. Taking the above ability requires a cleric to give up both of her domains, including her domain powers.
I never saw one in play, and maybe you're not interested, but it sounds like something to consider. Maybe talk to your GM and see if it's possible. It was removed in the current version, but I don't know why. Seems like a fair trade for a war cleric.
Well, first thing I would do is make sure that you are familiar with the stacking rules for bonuses. In order to get the higher bonuses you will need to stack smaller bonuses.
Strength - This is your bread and butter way for an extra bonus to hit, and you get the gravy of more damage to boot. Starting high is good, but at this point you are looking for anything that increases this that stacks.
Tactics in combat - Make sure you are taking advantage of the combat as a whole. For example, if you make sure you are in a flanking position (+2 to hit) and jump up on a table (higher ground +1 to hit), you are getting some good bonus rolling. Likewise, if the enemy is a position that makes them easier to hit, that is the same as a bonus to hit (prone for instance is effectively a +4 to hit).
Domains - There are some domain abilities that will help you get bonuses to hit. You probably already chose domains though I suppose.
- Animal - Gives you a handy flanking buddy
- Good - Touch of Good will give you 1/2 your cleric level sacred bonus (sacred bonuses are great since they aren't as common, so are more likely to stack).
- Law - A little more odd, but making sure you don't have a low roll is the same as a bonus to hit.
- Luck - Rolling twice on an attack certainly gives you a better chance to hit. The rerolls after level 6 come in real handy too. (while I am not a big fan of true strike you get that as a domain spell, and it most certainly gives a bonus to hit)
- Nobility - Can give a +2 morale bonus to hit for longer than other abilities give a higher bonus. Morale is a more common bonus though.
- Strength - Like Good except this gives an enhancement bonus... which is the most common type of bonus and less likely to stack.
- Sub Domain: Demon - Bonuses for both hit and dmg, but is enhancement
- Sub Domain: Heroism - +2 moral bonus to hitSpells
- Bless - +1 morale
- Command - You can tell them to drop prone and then get the +4 to hit
- Divine Favor - +1 luck
- Magic Weapon - +1 enhancement to...
Your avatar looks like Nicholas Cage.
Given their roll as holy men and priests it actually seems a bit odd to me that they would be partial warriors and have a medium HD/BAB & armor use. I'd kind expect them to be robe wearers. The whole point of them having higher HD and armor use seems to be to increase their survivability in melee combat while getting in ranged touch spells.
To eliminate that need, in my custom setting, I'm considering dropping them to unarmored & low HD/BAB. In place of that they would just be able to cast all touch spells as close range spells and get a few more skill points. As that's a major overhaul I'd probably rename them Priests then. I dunno. I'm no good at rebalancing classes.
Let me start by saying that melee Clerics are my favorite class to play since 3.0/3.5.
That said, I would recommend checking out an Oracle with the Battle mystery. It's very similar, you still get the divine caster feel, but if gives the options to really focus on melee combat. I'm currently playing one in a Council of Thieves game and mechanically it's one of my favorite characters since I switched to PF a couple years ago. In that party we have a Cleric (with healing domain) and a Fighter (two-handed archetype). I lag behind each of them in their specialty, but I can switch between roles adequately while also providing some battlefield control.
One of the coolest things about Battle Oracles is that they're quite good at combat maneuvers. With one feat you pick up both improved and greater versions for the relevant maneuver without needing the prerequisite (I have Disarm and Trip).
Warsight, Surprising Charge and Combat Healer are also great revelations that are a lot of fun. I've had a hard time not taking the Extra Revelation feat, none of which has made me OP, but just given me more options during combat. The Battle Oracle is the supreme generalist of melee combat IMO. He isn't the best at anything (except perhaps maneuvers), but he can switch tactics/strategy every round depending on what is most needed. The only downside is the poor saves.
When making one, I recommend having the lowest Charisma needed to cast spells of whatever level you normally get to. If your group plays E6, you only need a 13 or 14 CHA, but if you're playing a typical AP, you need at least a 15 or 16 (if you're mostly interested in melee, I'd go Oracle 12/Fighter X, once you have Heal, you don't need much for spells and the extra feats are more important).
You're avatar looks like Nicholas Cage.
It's surprising how often I get that.
Sean
I would recommend THIS for some more indepth recommendations on making a battle cleric.
Sean
That guide rocks, my PFS cleric is level 9 and has only used a single weapon once. I have used lots of spells and wands. Extreme have you looked at inquisitors yet? They can be a fun class also.
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Silence and Hold Person are just not effective. They have ST and SR and when enemies become truly powerful you strike them down just with melee or heavy spellcasting damage (I do not know PF, but I was used to cast Polar Ray and Sonic Orb with metamagic feats applied, as they do not require SR...). If I cannot create a character that somehow does one of this two things, I just don't have fun. As I was saying I probably played too much, and now my view is quite narrow minded.
I'm not sure what systems you're used to, but in Pathfinder and 3.X edition D&D spellcasters who blast are significantly less powerful than the save or die style casters. Spell Resistance applies to blasting spells too. Many blasting spells also allow a save for half damage.
It seems pretty clear that you don't want to be playing a cleric. You want to be playing a fighter. To which I ask: Why not just play a fighter? I'm playing a melee cleric because I enjoy the mix of martial and divine fighting. I also have a straight fighter for straight melee fighting...
If you wanna kick ass go either Inquisitor (I reccomend Dwarf 2hander with Steel Soul, glory of old and the Witchunter archetype for huge saves) who can swift action use judhements to rock.
If you want cleric a couple of good options are
Human Cleric or Imodae 8/Holy Vindicator10/ Cleric 2
Nets you BAB 17, 9th level spells, heavy armor and Stigmata as a swift action (+5 to hit or damage or saves) and Being a cleric of Imodae (heroism subdomain, archon subdomain) you can cast Good Hope or swift Aura of Heroism. Quicken Spell is your friend.
OR
2 hander cleric of Gorum with Rage Subdomain. You get RAGE and 2 rage powers. Stack your divine Power with Rage and Reckless abandon for big to hit score.
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It looks like you're suffering the effects of extreme power creep from 3.5, which had so many overpowered and outright broken combinations that pathfinder must seem mild by comparison.
Clerics are not the supreme bacon cheeseburger they used to be. Druids are significantly more balanced now as well.
A cleric won't ever have an attack bonus equal to a fighter off the bat. Let's ignore for the moment everything that the fighter and cleric can both have, and focus on specifics.
The big one for fighters is weapon training. Greater weapon focus also helps. But weapon training alone virtually guarantees that the fighter will always have a higher chance to hit.
So what's a cleric to do?
You have a couple options here. Option one is to accept it and move on with min/maxing where you can. Option two is to continue the hunt for a build that surpasses the fighter. That won't happen because of another major change between 3.5 and pathfinder. Most buffing spells went from 1hour/level to 1minute/level or less.
No more permabuffs, unless your party uses the 15 minute adventuring day. So you'll be behind in dpr any time you have to cast those buffs, which will often be during combat, and lose you a round or two of meleeing, while the fighter is destroying enemies.
Third option? Build something that doesn't target regular ac. You don't want to overshadow the fighter in the first place. You want to show off where he's weak, and let him show off where you're weak. That way, all the players get to have fun.
I had the same kind of problem when I started playing pathfinder. Your sense of balance and character power will adjust itself over time. Until then, try to keep in mind that nothing is quite as over the top in pathfinder as in 3.5
Although, the evil part of me wants to direct you towards sap adept and sap master for a future character... Or, ya know, a summoner. *shudder*
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Given their roll as holy men and priests it actually seems a bit odd to me that they would be partial warriors and have a medium HD/BAB & armor use. I'd kind expect them to be robe wearers. The whole point of them having higher HD and armor use seems to be to increase their survivability in melee combat while getting in ranged touch spells.
To eliminate that need, in my custom setting, I'm considering dropping them to unarmored & low HD/BAB. In place of that they would just be able to cast all touch spells as close range spells and get a few more skill points. As that's a major overhaul I'd probably rename them Priests then. I dunno. I'm no good at rebalancing classes.
Actually, they are not based at all off of unarmored, robe wearing holy men. They are based off of the crusaders, the templars, the hospitalrs, and other very martial religious warriors. The HD and Armor do make sense, but the Paladin is kind of screwing it up.
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There are three cleric archetypes that may help you. . .
There is also the Mendevian Priest archtype, I believe from Magic of Golarion. It is kind of cool. Like the Crusader, it is almost what the Cleric should be, I think.
Some other cool things are the Blessing of Fervor spell from APG, (4th I think). Absolutely fantastic spell. Sort of like a cool-guy Haste that allows everyone to pick certain advantages round by round, including a few freebie Metamagic Feats.
There is another one, and I can not think of the name or location, (I want to say Grace of the Crusader), which essentually nets you a Paladin's Smite.
The Holy Vindicator and the Holy Scion (I think, can't recall what book, Magic of Golarion?) are options. Holy Vindicator is a really good broken build, if done right, (supper AC), and with the right Domain, the other one can be fun.
Some one mentioned that the Cleric took a large step back, while every other class took steps forward, I think this is absolutely correct. A lot of spells changed, a lot of things changed that affect the Cleric. Most Domain powers do not work on the Cleric. They are Standard Actions and last 1 round, which means they end just before you could actually use them. The Str and the War Domains in particular are trrible options, (unless you are an NPC robe-wearing Cleric type). Absolutely avoid them. Maddness and Darkness are really cool, . . . but most DM's don't allow other options that disallow them indirectly.
There is one divine spell that can help, Mighty Strength, it's a 4 level spell (Cleric or Paladin) that provides +8 enhacement bonus to Strength. You can find it in Dwarves of Golarion.
Since it's an enhacement bonus, can stack with Divine Power.