What kind of results do you get if you weight spell level? Having two more level 1 spells might not compare to having access to level 2 spells.
It rarely does. That being said, it also doesn't account for the fact the wizard has permanently won against the sorcerer in terms of being able to scribe lots of random stuff, or craft wands of stuff he wants to spam while using his real slots for stuff that matters.
A sorcerer hits 6th level and he gets his first 3rd level spell. He has to decide between haste, dispel magic, slow, stinking cloud, sleet storm, and summon monster III. The wizard knows all of those, and has been casting most of them since 5th level. Just for poops and giggles, he crafted a wand of summon monster III so he can just drop an angry bison in the battle to be a meatshield or trampling juggernaught, and he has a couple of scrolls of sleet storm if he needs them, and has dispel magic, haste, and stinking cloud prepped, so he can combo with the party's cleric and her animated undead minions. :3
First of all what does amulet of magecraft has to do with spells known? Oh and since it's the bonded object it actually costs 10K and not 20K.
Second, sorcerers who use rod have to use a full round action but the wizard has no such limitation.
About the example of 4 evocation spells, amulet of magecraft helps you with that or just memorize the spells (if you are a specialist you have enough spells), also there is no cone acid spell iirc.
Anyway why are we still discussing generalist wizards as blasters, blaster wizards lose SO much if they don't go evoker.
It's still a 20k item, and you're not going to have it until 8th level at the earliest. Which means you've got an amulet that does nothing until then, OR you're doing double duty and got some extra costs there, too, with a double-enchanted bonded item.
You're missing the point. Look at the amulet. You can sub an evo spell for any other evo spell. That means the wizard, if he wants to cast four fireballs, needs to have 4 evocation spells memorized. It can be ANY FOUR evos...it doesn't matter which ones...but they are still going to be blaster spells, NOT other spells. It's like having fireball x4 memorized, it just LOOKS different. He can't cast any more spells then before, he can just cast DIFFERENT ones...that are in his book.
Which means he's still gimping his spell choices, just marginally less badly. The best way to look at the Amulet, for a universalist blaster, is just a way to change the elemental damage. I'll also note he can swap for spells, NOT metamagicked spells...so if he's got a Cone of Cold and wants fire damage, he's out of luck...it's going to be a fireball, not an Empowered Fireball.
If you want to ignore the 2x cost for off schools, add 1 to the spec mage every other level. Easy enough to figure. The sorcerer still comes out looking good. Also note all those spells are from the same school. Note a spec mage can't use the Amulet of Magecraft.
Sorcerers use Rods like they use all metamagic feats. Why is this a problem for Sorcs and Rods? It's free metamagic. If they need it, the option is there...and on the fly, not ahead of time. And not diving into a spellbook which you don't have time to do in the middle of a fight.
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A sorc can craft tons of magic items and swap them to the wizard who crafts other magic items. Not a problem. Crafting is again no way to compare two builds...each will simply focus on what they do best, and trade with other crafters for stuff they want. Especially consumables. The wizard also has to acquire all those spells for the wands and potions and odd items, which IS an additional cost. It doesn't get the versatility for free...that's the cleric.
I believe there are now Pearls of Power for sorcerers, are there not? Memonto Mori? I don't think they brought in Knowstones yet, however.
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As for hit points vs spells known, the sorcerer has an advantage in that he can spam False Life, and a wizard is gimping his spell choices if he memorizes it more then once. Hit points generally aren't a problem.
Sorcs also get laid more, but you never hear the wizards acknowledging that as a build advantage, either.
===Aelryinth
Ok i had read amulet of magecraft wrong, it isn't as good as i thought it was.
I am not saying that it is harder for sorcs to use a rod than it is for a sorc to use a metamagic feat, i am saying that it's harder for a sorc to use a rod when compared to a wizard.
On the crafting, sorcs are worse than wizards on crafting not only on spell completion, spell trigger and potions but also on all other magic items and that's because of two things: 1st the wizard is INT based (spellcraft is an INT skill) and 2nd the sorc most of the times won't be able to provide the spell needed and have to take the +5 to the DC. So you see why sorcs are worse than wizards at crafting?
Iirc the runestones of power (the pearl of power for spontaneous casters) cost double than the pearls.
What kind of results do you get if you weight spell level? Having two more level 1 spells might not compare to having access to level 2 spells.
Gak. You want to figure this as a SPELL POINT system???
The wizard gets 2 spells/day 1 level sooner then the sorc...but the sorc ALWAYS has more spells/day then the wizard, and almost always has a broader assortment of Spells Known (if human) at any one time then the Wizard. So the wizard tosses his two new cool spells...and then sort of stands around as the sorc keeps casting.
And, as noted, the wizard does have to acquire those spells. He gets nice stuff a level sooner, that's nice, but then loses the advantage for a level, and the sorc gets better. Meh.
The Summon III wand costs 11,250k and you won't have it before 8-9th level generally. It's also eleven days of down time to make yet another consumable. The sorc crafts something more enduring with the same amount of money, doing upgrades that stay with her as your wand eventually becomes useless. C'mon, making offensive spells via wands is kinda dumb.
==Aelryinth
The correct way to put it is the wizard gets more utility out of rods then the sorc does, because he gets access to more meta feats, and can use it without prep.
the sorc just gets access to more meta feats. It doesn't make rods useless for a Sorc...and a rod of quicken actually has the exact same utility for both of them. IF the Sorc has the Quicken feat, then Rods are exactly as useful for him as the wizard on quickened spells.
Being a worse crafter at specific things doesn't mean they are inept at crafting. The wizard is the God of Crafting. So what? the Sorc can make what he can make within the confines of his ability...particularly Wondrous items. The DC for Wondrous items starts at 5, not 10...meaning a sorc can make an item for which he does not have the spell, but has the caster level, every time without fail.
The wizard effectively gains NO BONUS for having the spells known for an item, because the DC is so low, and his Int is so high. His real advantage is if he tries to craft something for which he doesn't have the spell AND doesn't have the caster level...he can do that, the sorc can't. But items like that are generally too pricey for him to craft, anyways.
So, the sorc can effectively make everything the wizard can. The wizard can just sneer over his PhD at her while he does so. His crafting advantage is potentially huge on paper, but almost zilch in the game. It's similar to having +40 to hit an AC of 20...the wizard will hit every time and look magnificent and smug doing so. The sorc with a +20 will also hit every time, and look SEXY doing it.
===Aelryinth
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Some people want to use magic to blow stuff up, it's fun, get over it. Go rain on someone elses parade.Cool it Oscar. The first step to being a good blaster is understanding why blasting is bad. If you're a GM, it's a good to know where to address blasting to make it not so terrible.
Giving examples of bad uses and saying "Blasting is lame" is not demonstrating why blasting is 'bad', it is setting up straw men and knocking them down. Whee
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Part Two: Caster Power.Heehee. :3
EDIT: Anyone who paid attention to Schoolhouse Rock or the messages that popped up on their favorite Mortal Kombat arcade machine knows that knowledge is power. :P
Anyone who reads Order of the Stick knows that Power is Power. :P
===Aelryinth
A proper demonstration of the ins and outs of blasting has to be done by actually making a blaster build and demonstrating the repeated damage it can do by level.
Being able to 1/day toss a nasty spell is not good play. :P
And I'm sure any demonstration that would be made would only confirm the fact that until a spellcaster has both higher caster level and higher spell levels to meta a blasting spell up to, it's going to be hard to be a blaster.
==Aelryinth
I would ask that the board set a standard blaster build. I'm not totally up on the mechanics thereof, but it looks like Varisian Tatto (evocation) and crossblooded (orc/something) seem to be the core to a good blaster build.
And that means half-orc sorcs make the best blasters. Add racial trait for additional damage to blaster spells.
Then, you have to pick the other metas and feats to go with it.
Anyone care to present a base build? Once we have it, we can figure out the damage it does. You'd need to present one spell per spell level as a blaster spell. Note that as soon as a sorc gains a new level, she can basically cast that spell FOUR TIMES. Boom!
Half-orc with bloodlines???
Spells by level:
1) Magic Missile or Burning Hands
2) Scorching Ray
3) Fireball, et al.
4) Don't know?
5) Cone of Cold
6) Chain Lightning?
7) Delayed Blast Fireball?
8) Don't know?
9) Don't know (please, not Meteor Swarm)
If magic items are required, note the levels you buy them at. Rods, etc.
Feats will be important, by the level. I'm thinking base is Energize and Empower, Quicken, Spell Perfection at 15th, and ???.
Traits? The one that reduces a MM feat cost by 1? (if it's there)
1) Varisian Tattoo, or does Crossblooded take this?
3) Energize Spell
5) Empower Spell
7) CWI??? Gotta have some magic item creation.
9) Quicken Spell
11) ??
13) ??
15) SPell Perfection (what spell?)
17) ??
19) ??
If you get bonus feats from Sorc bloodlines, add them in.
Just copy the above and post your additions/modifications onto it. We should be able to knock out a 'core' blaster build without getting hugely silly about it.
==Aelryinth
Giving examples of bad uses and saying "Blasting is lame" is not demonstrating why blasting is 'bad', it is setting up straw men and knocking them down. WheeSome people want to use magic to blow stuff up, it's fun, get over it. Go rain on someone elses parade.Cool it Oscar. The first step to being a good blaster is understanding why blasting is bad. If you're a GM, it's a good to know where to address blasting to make it not so terrible.
Good thing I didn't do that, huh? I apologized to Ravingdork for speaking in a way that misrepresented the point I was making, which is a mathematical point. HP scales faster than spell damage. The exception to this tends to be spells that used to be save or die spells but were changed to save or take tons of damage.
I even clarified and showed the math behind it. Then you complained afterwords, unless you just got ninja'd by a few posters before your short post, you can't argue that I gave a lame example and try to twist what I was saying around to mean something else; as I had already taken the time to clarify it.
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For example, let's take something simple like a gnoll with 6 warrior levels. It's CR 4. Its HP is 50 (2d8+6d10+8) assuming he didn't buff his 13 Con to 14 at 4HD, and has +7/+2 BAB, +9 Fort, +1 Ref, and +1 Will. A 5th level wizard could drop a fireball on him for an average of 17.5 damage save for half. On a successful save the wizard wouldn't have even killed regular gnolls without extra HD (who have 11 hp). This is before energy or spell-resistances.
first... who would cast fireball against a single target? Scorching ray is lower level and nearly guaranteed to do 4d6(+X) damage.
second... your example is seemingly contrived specifically to give it maximum hit points for a given CR. Very few GMs would use a creature like that. Few GMs use class levels of warrior except for the lowest level creatures. You are certainly not going to find a Gnoll Warrior 6 in a published module.
So you have a situation where fireball is a poor choice of spells (single target) against a creature that is essentially a bag of hit points.
Reads like a straw man, plays like a straw man... If it's not one, what is it?
Aelryinth, posting huge amounts of pointless mathematics to prove that 6+x is two higher than 4+x does not mean anything. Generalist wizards have 4 spells per day at levels 1-9 at level 20 and sorcerers have 6 spells per day at levels 1-9 at level 20, it goes without saying that with the same casting stat value a sorcerer will have 18 more spells than a generalist wizard.
However a sorcerer will have 9 more spells per day than a specialist wizard and the same number of spells per day as a sin wizard, if the sorcerer is cross blooded it has 9/day spells more than a generalist, the same as a specialist and 9/day less than a sin wizard due to losing one spell per spell level.
The wizard loses some access to two schools of magic for sin wizardry and has to jump through an extra hoop as a specialist, the crossblooded sorcerer which everyone touts for blasting is the same as a wizard with a specialisation but with less ability to craft.
The suposed advantage of sorcerer spells know disappears if you run the half-orc crossblooded blaster build to maximise fire damage as you can't take the 17 extra spells. I'm still not convinced that having 17 extra spells known for a sorcerer is better than a wizard being able to know as many spells as he wants and change spells every day, or 15 mins in an open slot, or 1 min with fast study, most people seem to think that wizards are more powerful due to being able to change their entire spell list everyday but its probably personal preference and heavily influenced by the type of game you play in.
Finally what does this have to do with optimising blasting? Spells known is kind of pointless when an optimal blaster has magical lineage (favourite blasting spell) and will also take spell focus, specialisation, perfection, greater focus, greater specialisation and varisian tattoo for the spell they took magical lineage for and spam the hell out of that one spell, even wizards are spontaneous casters with greater spell specialisation and spell perfection is where most of your meta magic comes from.
A truely optimal blaster would probably be an elf crossblooded black dragon/primal earth tattooed sorcerer 1, thassilonian sin magic wrath admixture subschool x. Magical lineage fire snake (good level for meta magic, shapable and energy) and the feats above with the standard blasting metamagic feats, this would throw out an intensified empowered acid admixtured fire snake and a quickened acid admixtured fire snake each round, using a 7th and 8th level spell slot dealing 30d6+60+x and 15d6+30+x damage each where x is half you wizard level, averaging 264 acid damage before saves and resistances to up to 21 adjacent 5ft squares at character level 16. The caster level would be 21 for that effect at character level 16 (sorc1/wiz15) with spell specialisation and varisian tattoo adding 6 to your caster level for that spell due to perfection and it can pull that trick out 4 or 5 times a day with a good int score spontaneously due to greater spell specialisation and use acid scorching ray (12d6+20 damage without any metamagic) for anything still fighting on round two, if you come up against acid immunity you lose 2 damage per die but in a worst case scenario you can magic missile for 5d4+13 with no metamagic. At low levels i'd grab spell specialisation as early as possible to go with intensify spell and pick the best aoe i could find for that level (probably burning hands at level 3 dealing 5d4+11 without metamagic, into fireball at level 7 dealing 9d6+21 without metamagic, into firesnake level 11). Even with conj and abj barred you still have access to all the illusion and transmutation control and buff spells as well as the enchantment/necromancy SoS spells if you want a change from melting your opponents into puddles.
The biggest drawback is the sin magic restrictions barring two really handy schools in conjuration and abjuration but you can take mage armour as a sorcerer spell and UMD other stuff if you need it, if your not happy with that restriction just take standard specialisation and pick two other schools (necromancy and enchantment) that do very little for blasters.
Not the only way but i believe one of the most effective ways to make a blaster.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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For example, let's take something simple like a gnoll with 6 warrior levels. It's CR 4. Its HP is 50 (2d8+6d10+8) assuming he didn't buff his 13 Con to 14 at 4HD, and has +7/+2 BAB, +9 Fort, +1 Ref, and +1 Will. A 5th level wizard could drop a fireball on him for an average of 17.5 damage save for half. On a successful save the wizard wouldn't have even killed regular gnolls without extra HD (who have 11 hp). This is before energy or spell-resistances.first... who would cast fireball against a single target? Scorching ray is lower level and nearly guaranteed to do 4d6(+X) damage.
second... your example is seemingly contrived specifically to give it maximum hit points for a given CR. Very few GMs would use a creature like that. Few GMs use class levels of warrior except for the lowest level creatures. You are certainly not going to find a Gnoll Warrior 6 in a published module.
So you have a situation where fireball is a poor choice of spells (single target) against a creature that is essentially a bag of hit points.
Reads like a straw man, plays like a straw man... If it's not one, what is it?
Against a CR 4 encounter of 4 regular gnolls, that same fireball becomes a save-or-die effect :)
For example, let's take something simple like a gnoll with 6 warrior levels. It's CR 4. Its HP is 50 (2d8+6d10+8) assuming he didn't buff his 13 Con to 14 at 4HD, and has +7/+2 BAB, +9 Fort, +1 Ref, and +1 Will. A 5th level wizard could drop a fireball on him for an average of 17.5 damage save for half. On a successful save the wizard wouldn't have even killed regular gnolls without extra HD (who have 11 hp). This is before energy or spell-resistances.first... who would you cast fireball against a single target? Scorching ray is lower level and guaranteed to do 4d6 damage.
second... your example is seemingly contrived specifically to give it maximum hit points for a given CR. Very few GMs would use a creature like that. Few GMs use class levels of warrior except for the lowest level creatures. You are certainly not going to find a Gnoll Warrior 6 in a published module.
So you have a situation where fireball is a poor choice of spells (single target) against a creature that is essentially a bag of hit points.
Reads like a straw man, plays like a straw man... If it's not one, what is it?
It's an example of how damage doesn't scale with HD very well. Grabbing another brute enemy off the CR 4 table, we have the dire wolverine at 42 HP, Dire boar at 42 HP, Barghest at 45 HP, Tiger at 45 HP, yeti at 45 HP, etc. In their case, most of those have better Reflex saves than the gnoll is 50 HP by a ton (which means the gnoll was more likely to take full damage, more or less negating his 5 extra HP).
I didn't include a group of enemies because a group wasn't necessary. I was just showing the rate of HP scaling vs direct damage. I had already noted, in another post, that HP/damage scaling favors HP more in later levels, to the point that you can't even wipe out foes who are drastically below your CR.
For example, a delayed blast fireball cast by a 20th level caster is 20d6 fire damage, or an average of 60 damage on a failed save. As you've seen, on a successful save even a CR 4 enemy isn't going to succumb to that damage. There are a number of CR 5 enemies who wouldn't be killed by it even on a failed save. As CRs increase, the likelihood of it being meaningful plummets. Then you also get to add things like energy resistances and immunities into the pot. Also fast healing, incorporeality, evasion, and other problems you must face.
Perhaps my failing here was not addressing both singular and multiple foes being poor options for general blasting, and just demonstrating how HP scales faster than damage.
Against a CR 4 encounter of 4 regular gnolls, that same fireball becomes a save-or-die effect :)
Theoretically. The math favors killing the gnolls on a failed save. The fact you have to roll Xd6 damage makes it uncertain. You could deal as much as 30 damage, or as little as 5 damage. The uncertainty of it makes the Maximize Spell feat more appealing, IMHO.
Personally, I preferred back in 3.0 where empower and maximized stacked, and when I say stacked I mean really stacked. 10d6 became 15d6 which became 15 * 6. An empowered maximized fireball was 90 damage save for 45. An empowered maximized delayed blast fireball could have dealt 180 damage with a save for 90. Blasting was much more effective with the 3.0 feat stacking rules, and way, way easier to deal with at the table (no having to roll the damage, halve it to find your bonus damage, and then adding that to your normal maximized damage). At least with 180 save for half, it was pretty darn useful for wiping out waves of weaker enemies and dealing some respectable damage to stronger ones (180 -30 for energy resistance is still a respectable 150). Especially since you could follow it with a quickened spell.
Ashiel, i agree with your take on blasting damage vs Hd scaling, however the level 15 build i theory crafted would on average wipe out an encounter with 10 cr 14 mount trolls by itself or even against something sensible like 4 cr14 handmaiden devils who have good reflex saves and acid resistance 10 deal over 120 damage on average if they passed their saves, with an average hp of 183 they are not healthy after the blast.
Even against a big single target such as a cr 18 very old red dragon (310 hp) it would be expected to deal between 1/3 and 1/2 its hp in a single round, i probably wouldn't dump high level spell slots to aoe a single target though so i'd probably quicken a haste and pop out a wall of force first round and drop back to cold admixture scorching rays after that since losing +2 per die for +50% makes sense.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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Against a CR 4 encounter of 4 regular gnolls, that same fireball becomes a save-or-die effect :)Theoretically. The math favors killing the gnolls on a failed save. The fact you have to roll Xd6 damage makes it uncertain. You could deal as much as 30 damage, or as little as 5 damage. The uncertainty of it makes the Maximize Spell feat more appealing, IMHO.
In this particular case, the chance of rolling at least a 12 on your 5d6 is something like 95% (if I've used my calculator properly, anyway). That strikes me as pretty reliable.
Note to self; make an 'Embiggen Cone' feat.
Doesn't Widen Spell do that?
@Aelryinth
What does caster level has to do with item crafting? It only matters with weapons and armor (and maybe not even then).
The sorcerer makes a better blaster than a wizard because of their spontaneity. A sorcerer can drop a haste or a BFC spell and then blast until the enemies are dead, using whatever spells with whatever shape he needs. Or he can blast with every spell, making sure every blast he drops applies.
This means that a sorcerer can get every last drop out of every spell slot he has available, every day. This is what a blaster needs. Two fireballs and two lightning bolts is not as good as 3 spells that can be any combination of those two, or metamagic'd versions of lower-level spells. A sorcerer who's chosen his spell list correctly will be prepared for every fight, even very similar fights. A wizard, who must prepare for pocket cases by dedicating spell slots, cannot cast every spell in his book every day and have them work at 100% without a bit of luck.
I disagree, what a blaster needs is damage and ways to overcome the resistances of his targets, those resistances are immunities, resistances, saves, SR. The sorcerer falls behind the wizard on most of them.
One thing I find a lot of people don't think about when theorizing about blaster builds, is enemy morale.
If you are fighting a group of monsters with 250 hp each, and you deal nearly 200 damage to ALL OF THEM IN ONE ROUND WITH NO EFFORT, they aren't likely to want to continue the fight. This isn't some arcade game; most creatures want to go on living. Even if they do keep attacking, you've brought them SO LOW that the rest of the party will EASILY mop the floor with them. The fight is over in round one, maybe two.
You just don't have that without a good blaster. At best a good battlefield controller will disable the enemy while the party takes four of five rounds to wipe them out.
A second mistake I find people making is the assumption that great blasters don't have other options. If for some reason the enemy is immune/highly resistant to your blasting spells, fall back on your battlefield control spells, save or die spells, or buff/debuff spells. It's not as if players actually make spellcasters that rely exclusively on blasting (despite what certain people on the internet would have us believe). Heck, trap them with your control spells THEN blast them! It may take a little longer, but you minimize the risk to the party.
It makes no sense to talk about the different spellcasting combat strategies in a vacuum.
One thing I find a lot of people don't think about when theorizing about blaster builds, is enemy morale.
If you are fighting a group of monsters with 250 hp each, and you deal nearly 200 damage to ALL OF THEM IN ONE ROUND WITH NO EFFORT, they aren't likely to want to continue the fight. This isn't some arcade game; most creatures want to go on living. Even if they do keep attacking, you've brought them SO LOW that the rest of the party will EASILY mop the floor with them. The fight is over in round one, maybe two.
Well the biggest problem I see with this is morale is an intangible thing. What might terrify one enemy might just piss off another. You might just spur them to fight harder and dirtier, since fleeing from a mage chucking 400 ft + 40 ft / level spells at them is effectively useless if they're not fiends (who generally have greater teleport at will).
Plus, it's hard to do 200 damage to everything with no effort. I posted previously that even in 3.0 where Empower + Maximize were actually a good combo, 20d6 translated to 180 damage with a save for half, before resistances, energy resistance, evasion, improved evasion, etc. 200+ damage would need a maximized / empowered meteor swarm, which would be equivalent to a 14th level spell.
And it's worse in 3.5 / Pathfinder where Empower+Maximize is nerfed.
So you might be able to wiggle into some sort of build that makes it stronger to help you hit that 200 mark, but you're getting really specific at that point. Getting quickened spells into the mix might help out, but that's also burning through spells faster and using less damage / save DCs.
You just don't have that without a good blaster. At best a good battlefield controller will disable the enemy while the party takes four of five rounds to wipe them out.
Battlefield control is every bit as demoralizing as blasting, insofar as again we're talking about an intangible concept of the character's willingness to keep fighting or their certainty of winning or losing the fight. Most battlefield control and save or suck options are killer, and that's demoralizing too. It's pretty demoralizing when you're a 20th level rogue and can't sneak attack anything because that enemy mage's familiar just dropped an obscuring mist on the field via a wand while the mage unleashed a waves of exhaustion on your entire group, fatiguing them with no saving throw. Pretty demoralizing indeed.
We could toss around what's demoralizing all day long. It's an intangible thing, and it doesn't only come from HP damage, nor is it in the rules. It also heavily depends on what enemies you're fighting. Some simple guards with families and such who are just doing their job? They'll likely beg for mercy. Crazy cultists? Well you just convinced him to run into the party and break his necklace of fireballs. :P
A second mistake I find people making is the assumption that great blasters don't have other options. If for some reason the enemy is immune/highly resistant to your blasting spells, fall back on your battlefield control spells, save or die spells, or buff/debuff spells. It's not as if players actually make spellcasters that rely exclusively on blasting (despite what certain people on the internet would have us believe). Heck, trap them with your control spells THEN blast them! It may take a little longer, but you minimize the risk to the party.
It makes no sense to talk about the different spellcasting combat strategies in a vacuum.
Well every spell you have prepared as a blasting spell is a spell you don't have for general problem solving and control. Since enemies tend to resist control and buffing spells poorly, they are a safer bet the majority of the time. Now personally, I like wands and such for blasting. A good lightning bolt up your sleeve is a sweet way to really ruin a caster's day when you interrupt their spell with it. Maximized lightning bolt is 60 damage, which is a DC 70 + spell level Concentration check. :3
Also, again, blasting tends to be more difficult basted on terrain. Like I said before. Even if you kill your enemies, your might end up destroying all your loot and stuff in the area. It's also very poor when dealing with situations where there are innocents nearby that you don't want to BBQ (either out of a sense of goodness or desire to avoid complications with the law or society).
EDIT: Dazing spell has made blasting tons more viable though, because it turns all blasting spells you can piggy-back it on into save or suck spells (arguably save or die). Makes a lot of damaging spells, including DoTs like acid arrow very nice. Tossing a dazing acid arrow at a golem pretty much ensures the golem is done for. Tossing the same on an enemy mage will pester him with ongoing concentration checks and a save each round vs daze for 2 rounds.
One would almost say Paizo has made it so we can have our cake and eat it too. :)
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The thing you seem to be missing ashiel is that with the extra damage per die from crossblooded empower/intensify is actually better than maximise, a maximised fire snake deals 15d6+30 damage maximised to 120, an intensified empowered fire snake deals 30d6+60 averaging 165 out of a potential 240.
Elf tattooed crossblooded black dragon/primal earth sorcerer 1/scrollmaster thassilonian sin magic wrath admixture subschool wizard 15
Magical lineage fire snake, reactionary
20 point buy
Str 7 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 11 Cha 7
4 level increases in int, +6 headband, +4 tome = int 34
+6 dex belt = dex 22
Favoured class wizard +15 hp
hd 6+1+15d6+15+15
varissian tattoo
1 spell focus evocation
scribe scroll
3 spell specialisation fire snake
5 intensify spell
greater spell focus evocation
7 greater spell specialisation
9 empower spell
11 improved initiative
spell penetration/elemental focus acid
13 quicken spell
15 greater spell penetration/greater elemental focus acid
spell perfection fire snake
At 16th character level
Init +16 = dex +6, familiar +4, feat +4, trait +2
casting fire snake dc31 or 35 = 10+12int+5level+2sfe+2gsfe (optional +2efa+2gefa)
at caster level 21 = 15+2vt+4ss
overcoming sr +23 or +31 = 21+2race (optional +4sp+4gsp)
as a 5th level spell memorised with intensify for no increase due to magical lineage
admixtured to acid for bloodline arcana
cast once with empower for no increase due to spell perfection 30d6+60+7 acid damage
and again with quicken for no increase due to spell perfection 20d6+40+7 acid damage
which can be cast spontaineously due to greater spell specialisation
average of 289 before saves, sr and resists to up to 21 5ft squares
without any rods or other magical gear
can also cast spells from scrolls using full caster level and feats (cl15 for evocation, dc10+14+spell level)
At lower levels you can focus your efferts on burning hands until character level 7 then fireball till character level 11
Fire snake also one of the best blasting spells out there, its shapable, admixable, it goes to 20d6 with intensify, its level 5 so you can use it with spell perfected quicken and with magical lineage you can still intensify.
This is now the third time i have posted the build method and figures in this thread, even with powerful blasting build suggestions that can end encounters from level 3 and scale as you level, people just seem to gloss over the posts that don't agree with their argument though.
That's because your build is effective at level 16 and requires incredible amounts of specialization.
It has to GET to level 16.
So, BY LEVEL, denote what he's using for blasting spells and what their damage is.
Denote how often he can do it. That wizard can throw one or two of those a day. That's not a blaster...that's a nova technique.
And it's dependent on a DM okaying Magical Lineage for a 5th level spell? There's RAW and there's believable. Spell specialization for a spell you can't even cast? I don't think so. Swap that and Improved Init, please.
And your character dropped everything into that build...even spell focus x 4. It gets the saves up, but, like, wow.
It looks like without Spell Perfection, you're literally doing half damage...you lose caster levels AND Empower is no longer free. I guess SPell Perfection makes the build.
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Crossblooded doesn't give you extra spells castable a day, AFAIK. And don't you have to pick and choose which one of the bloodline spells per level? I didn't think it gave you both, I might be mistaken.
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My two posts were direct rebuttals to the Spells Known argument of Wizards at any one time, and the 'Specialists and Wizards have more power then Sorcerers' argument that Ashiel jumped on without knowing her math.
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Asking for all wizards who want to blast to be Sin Mages probably isn't going to fly, either.
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The argument that wizards aren't spell restricted because they can whip out a spellbook and memorize anything is a bad argument, simply because wizards aren't 100% of the time going to be able to whip out their spellbook and fill in their blanks. They are going to be fighting, or in combat, or in something. If they don't have the spell at the moment they need it, they aren't any better then a sorcerer. Yes, with planning, the wizard tends to shine more. Everybody knows that. If you need raw quantity, the sorcerer shines. Everyone knows that. And blaster builds are generally about quantity over versatility.
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Caster level is still required for higher level spell effects, even if you accept Ashiel's arguments that spell levels for non-caster level priced objects can be mucked around with to minimize craft DC's.
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==Aelryinth
That's because your build is effective at level 16 and requires incredible amounts of specialization.
It has to GET to level 16.
So, BY LEVEL, denote what he's using for blasting spells and what their damage is.
Denote how often he can do it. That wizard can throw one or two of those a day. That's not a blaster...that's a nova technique.
And it's dependent on a DM okaying Magical Lineage for a 5th level spell? There's RAW and there's believable. Spell specialization for a spell you can't even cast? I don't think so. Swap that and Improved Init, please.
And your character dropped everything into that build...even spell focus x 4. It gets the saves up, but, like, wow.
It looks like without Spell Perfection, you're literally doing half damage...you lose caster levels AND Empower is no longer free. I guess SPell Perfection makes the build.
I don't think you realize how well his build synergies throughout the low levels. The feat Spell Specialization allows you to change the spell you are specialized in every time you gain an even level in your spellcasting class. So as was mentioned you start with burning hands, then move to fireball and finally at high levels get your bread and butter with fire snake. Basically the only thing he takes at low levels that doesn't help him be more effective at that level is a single trait, frankly I don't see how any DM would have a problem with that.
Basically you have a good aoe attack spell that does lvl + 2 dice worth of damage plus the extra damage from 2 sorc schools and powerful evocations. Add to that scribe scroll feat for extra versatility and you have a blaster wizard that is fun and effective at all levels.
Personally it is a little too focused for my tastes I probably would drop one or two of the school focus's for some crafting feats or other specific feats for the campaign. I happen to play a blaster wizard in my current campaign and while probably not as optimal as a save or suck wizard it is a lot of fun, and surprisingly versatile. Far more flexible than if I had played a sorc.
Edit: Less snarky :)
Low-level blasting is possible too!
For example, if I understand Egoish's build correctly, at level 3 (sorc1/wiz2) he can cast burning hands for 5d4+10 (22.5 avg) with spell specialisation, varisian tattoo and the bloodline abilities. The thasilonian specialisation helps him keep up in terms of spells/day.
That's enough to one-shot most CR 2 creatures and seriously put the hurt on a CR 3 enemy. And when making comparisons to other damage sources, keep in mind that you can be potentially one-shotting more than one CR 2 baddie at a time!
Now, a half-orc cross-blooded draconic primal fire sorcerer can do more or less the same thing... except the sorcerer lacks the awesome admixture school ability to switch to cold damage when faced with, say, a CR 3 medium fire elemental.
Sure, you're super specialised, but you can definitely do it. Is it the best thing ever at this level? Probably not. But it still seems pretty fun!
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Here's a thought, sort of a compromise between the pure blaster and the controller:
Human cross-blooded elemental (water)/orc sorcerer.
Damage is not as good, but in return you get to entangle everyone with Rime Spell!
Regarding versatility, if your enemies are cold immune, just cast your fire spells as fire spells and you can still blast, you just won't get Rime Spell (you still get your bonus damage from the Orc bloodline). You could also do Draconic (Silver) instead of Orc if you liked the other abilities/fluff better. You wouldn't get the bonus damage on non-cold spells the way Orc does, but you'll probably be casting cold spells the vast majority of the time, so probably not a big sacrifice. Note that your Elemental bonus spells always have to deal cold damage, so Burning Hands is always cold. Fireball on the other hand is hot or cold.
At level 4
Feats:
1: Spell Focus: evocation, Varisian Tattoo
3: Rime Spell
A Rime-spell Burning Hands does 5d4+5 cold damage (avg 17.5) and entangles everyone for 2 rounds.
CR 4 Minotaur: HP 45
At level 8
Feats:
1: Spell Focus: evocation, Varisian Tattoo
3: Rime Spell
5: Intensify spell
7: Spell specialization: fireball
A Rime-spell Fireball does 10d6+10 (avg. 45) and entangles everyone for 3 rounds.
An Intensified, Rime-spell Burning Hands does 9d4+9 (avg. 31.5) and entangles everyone for 2 rounds.
CR 8 Stone Giant: 102 HP
At level 10
Feats:
1: Spell Focus: evocation, Varisian Tattoo
3: Rime Spell
5: Intensify spell
7: Spell specialization: fireball
9: Imp. Initiative? Greater Spell Focus? Whatever?
An Intensified, Rime-spell Fireball does 13d6+13 (avg. 58.5) and entangles everyone for 3 rounds.
An Intensified, Rime-spell Burning Hands does 10d4+10 (avg. 35) and entangles everyone for 2 rounds.
CR 10 Bebilith: 150 HP
At level 12
Feats:
1: Spell Focus: evocation, Varisian Tattoo
3: Rime Spell
5: Intensify spell
7: Spell specialization: fireball
9: Imp. Initiative? Greater Spell Focus? Whatever?
11: Empower spell
An Intensified, Empowered, Rime-spell Fireball does 22d6+22 (avg. 99) and entangles everyone for 3 rounds.
An Intensified, Rime-spell Fireball does 15d6+15 (avg. 67.5) and entangles everyone for 3 rounds.
An Intensified, Rime-spell Burning Hands does 10d4+10 (avg. 35) and entangles everyone for 2 rounds.
CR 12 Adult Green Dragon: 172 HP
Conclusion
Even with just the Orc bloodline and metamagic feats for your damage, your damage is between 1/3 and 1/2 of the hit points of equal CR creatures, so you're definitely pulling your weight damage-wise. You really shine when faced with multiple slightly lower CR creatures and can blast all of them at once. Top all that off with the fact that you are entangling everyone lowering their attack rolls and ACs, you're definitely doing some effective blasting!
If you wanted to further emphasize control at the expensive of damage, while still blasting, you could do Cross-blooded Elemental (Water)/Rime-Blooded to also add a slow effect to one target of each of your cold spells.
Thoughts?
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Just looked up the tattooed sorcerer, can't believe I missed that! Human tattooed sorcerer can have spell focus, spell specialization and Varisian tattoo at level 1! And you can pick up the compsognathus for +4 init!
...morale is an intangible thing.
Anyways, my point was that many GMs run every encounter, every enemy, as a fight to the death when, realistically, this should RARELY be the case.
And yes, it will vary widely based on the enemy and circumstances in question.
...morale is an intangible thing.Anyways, my point was that many GMs run every encounter, every enemy, as a fight to the death when, realistically, this should RARELY be the case.
And yes, it will vary widely based on the enemy and circumstances in question.
Most published adventures I've seen have a moral/tactics description for each enemy that details whether or not they will fight to the death, so it's not even that intangible.
Having just hit level 3 in ROTRL Campaign as a Sorcerer this thread has been invaluable!
Could someone tell me if Feats like - Greater Spell Focus - Evo and Elemental Focus/ Greater Elemental Focus are required to beating saves?
How do a Wizards spells scale with enemies saves? Is Heighten Spell required?
I will have to remember those.
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Aelryinith i have not quoted you to keep my post on the shorter side but i will attempt to answer your points.
1st level is a bad one, same as any other crossblooded character, your bread and butter damage is acid splash for 1d3+2, i actually made an error in my stat distribution and should have had cha 11 for colour spray through level 1.
At level two you get a decent blast in burning hands and pick up lots of extra 1st level spells with sin magic. The reason i mention sin magic is as i related in my previous post it gives the wizard build 1 more spell per day per level than the crossblooded sorcerer build, you could take a standard admixture sub school evocation specialist and still be on par with a sorcerer but we are talking about optimisation.
Level 3 gets good, your caster level is 1 sorc/2 wiz+1evoc+2spec, your speced in burning hands and doing 5d4+11 damage when you admix acid, you can do that at least twice with you spec spell slots, you have loads of spell slots spare for silent image control or colour spary from the sorcerer side.
Level 5 second level spells and intensify come online, burning hands becomes a 7d4+14+2 acid cone.
Level 7 you change to spell spec fireball and pick up greater spec, you can now spontaineously cast 10d6+20+3 acidballs whenever you want, no longer bound by memorisation.
Through these levels you probably want to keep a shocking grasp or scorching ray in there somewhere for finishing things ofc, the reason you don't need to memorise loads of blasts is that after the fight while everyone else is picking over bodys and taking 20 looking for loot you can reload the artillery and if your dropping more than two big aoe's in a fight its not going well anyway.
Level 7-11 you are throwing around 9-15d6 + 18-30 + 3-5 depending on where you are for metamagic and spell slots, caster level and class level, sometimes intensify is better, sometimes empower is better.
Spell perfection is only available at level 16, which is a bummer, but spell perfection makes the build capable of huge damage for low level spells, it lets you quicken an intensified fire snake for a 5th level spell slot. Without spell perfection the build deals between 1/4 and 3/4 damage but expends more resources depending on level etc, the same as a sorc would without spell perfection, for cheak if you wanted to taking burning or dazing spell to use with a spell perfected acidsnake you could and it would be funny.
To be honest i don't think i'd play that feat selection, +23 to overcome sr at 16 is easily enough and the save dc is if anything over optimised for its level, dc30+ should make most npc's have at best a 50/50 pass chance unless they have a very high save and most have poor reflex by those levels. I'd swap those optional spell penetration and elemental focus feats out for some crafting feats most likely.
Also the order i have put the feats down is not set in stone, if you want to spontaineously cast your spec spell earlier take greater spec at 5 and push back intensify, if your worried about damage take the metamagic sooner. Most of all plan your slots, if you can drop a spell for an intensified empowered 22d6+44+5 acidball at level 11 don't memorise loads of aoe blasts, get a few walls and some single target dd and then fill up on buffs and control.
The crossblooded archtype actually removes 1 spell from sorcerers each level so reduces them to the same number of spells per day as a standard specialist wizard, as i have explained several times over several posts, a sin wizard has 1 more spell per day per level and a scrollmaster just laughs at the notion of spells per day.
The caster level of this character is 1 behind a standard crossblooded sorcerer build but as we can see from the level 16 firesnake casting that he is already 1 level over his maximum for that spell, it may have a minor effect on the odd character levels such as 5, 9 and 13 where applying metamagic could sometimes get the sorc an extra d6+2 damage but this washes out due to the extra 1/2 wizard level damage the admixture specialist always gets and the versatility of the elemental damage changes.
Having already explained twice in this post i will explain one more time in the hope that someone finally reads it, in a contest of quantity the crossblooded sorcerer has 6-1+stat modifier spells per day and the sin wizard has 4+2+stat modifier spells per day, the wizard wins at every level, and due to the sorcerers slower progression the sorcerer dip doesn't even delay spell level aquisition compared to the full sorcerer. Like i said you don't have to be a sin wizard, a standard specialist can equal the sorcerer but if your trying to optimise sin magic is the way to go.
Caster level does matter but being 1 behind is not a big deal when your casting at level 5 as a level 3 character.
I have thrown everything behind blasting in the spec as well, except for listing no equipment other than the obvious, with cwi and ss this character can have a library of scrolls and enough boosting items and pearls of power to literally ruin any arguments about spells per day, with the scrollmaster archtype he applies all of his feats etc to scrolls as well and can have a UMD class skill from sorc as high as you wish to optimise.
Wasn't sure if anyone would notice the compy tattoo familiar by the way, well done Beebs.
One last thing to mention is skill points and knowledge checks, this blaster has level+3+int in all of the key knowledges so he knows when to use acid, when its better to use fire/cold for vulnerabilities and when the target(s) are immune or resistant to acid, this allows a quick bit of math to determine the best type of damage to do for maximum destrution or if he needs to fall back on his stave/wand of force effects.
The crossblooded archtype actually removes 1 spell from sorcerers each level so reduces them to the same number of spells per day as a standard specialist wizardCrossblooded removes one spell known not the number of casts per day.
Wow i mis read that, my apologies. Its actually even worse though, the quantity is the same as the sin wizard but its so much more limited unless you use the human alternate favoured options.
Even running a blaster i can't imagine my only spell at level 1 being a 2d4+4 burning hands, i'd much rather take silent image then get an extra 5 first level slots at level 2 from sin wizard to add in blasts and buffs.
My point still stands that the sorcerer has no quantity advantage over a sin wizard, having 1 spell per day per level less is a big deal if you chose to go for a basic specialisation but the sorc still loses the admixture damage, energy substitution and energy aura as well as any potential racial benefits if you decide to use human to gain more spells.
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That's because your build is effective at level 16 and requires incredible amounts of specialization.
It has to GET to level 16.
This is a great point that is constantly hand waved in the theory craft threads.
The game is designed for you to be starting at level one and moving forward. Just because you can design something that will be very effective in a certain circumstance at a fairly high level doesn't me a) you will survive being undervpowered until you get to that level and b) that very specific set of circumstances will occur.
That's because your build is effective at level 16 and requires incredible amounts of specialization.
It has to GET to level 16.
This is a great point that is constantly hand waved in the theory craft threads.
The game is designed for you to be starting at level one and moving forward. Just because you can design something that will be very effective in a certain circumstance at a fairly high level doesn't me a) you will survive being undervpowered until you get to that level and b) that very specific set of circumstances will occur.
I just posted a level 1-16 build breakdown and it is effective at every level other than debatably 1 during which time it has the same problems as any blaster sorcerer build and most spellcasters in general.
The very specific set of circumstances are all class abilities and feat selections so yes they will happen because the player gets to pick them.
I understand that you may want to disagree with blasting being viable, i agree myself that control is better than rolling fist fulls of d6 but please at least read the information before blindly critisising it.
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That's because your build is effective at level 16 and requires incredible amounts of specialization.
It has to GET to level 16.
This is a great point that is constantly hand waved in the theory craft threads.
The game is designed for you to be starting at level one and moving forward. Just because you can design something that will be very effective in a certain circumstance at a fairly high level doesn't me a) you will survive being undervpowered until you get to that level and b) that very specific set of circumstances will occur.
I just posted a level 1-16 build breakdown and it is effective at every level other than debatably 1 during which time it has the same problems as any blaster sorcerer build and most spellcasters in general.
The very specific set of circumstances are all class abilities and feat selections so yes they will happen because the player gets to pick them.
I understand that you may want to disagree with blasting being viable, i agree myself that control is better than rolling fist fulls of d6 but please at least read the information before blindly critisising it.
No, you posted an very rough outline with presumptions of the right spells at the right time, memorized in the right quantities.
When you actually play the game, you don't know what you are going to encounter on a given day, how many of them you are going to encounter, etc...
I think blasting is perfectly viable, in the right group dynamic. I also think the hyper specialized usually end up in a lot of trouble at some point in a campaign.
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I agree that i do assume that the build has a spell available to cast at all times that will be useful in any given encounter, but considering it can cast silent image or colour spray 3/day from its sorcerer levels i think that is a fair assumption.
I would go with silent image in my sorcerer spell slot with ray of frost as a spamable touch spell, then at level 2 my adventuring spells would be 2 burning hands (2d4+5 dc17), charm person (dc16), vanish and enlarge person.
At level 3 i would have an extra 1st level slot that i would leave open to cover any usage i needed to replace after an encounter or two, the burning hands is now 5d4+11 damage.
That is about as prepared as any level 1-3 arcanist can be, no sorcerer would have a better selection of spells per day before level 3, a standard tm wizard build would probably have a control spell in place of two burning hands and would hit 2nd level spells a level earlier, but wouldn't have an extra 3 silent images a day.
While i agree with what your saying that preparing for the day ahead is a hard choice you seem to think that its harder for this character to prepare than any other.
Mostly i think memorisation is personal preference but at level 3 with 3 silent images, a charm, 2 aoes dealing 33 average damage, a buff for the fighter and an escape mechanism as well as a spare slot to fill in blanks your about as prepared as you can be.
Blasting cannot be the right thing to do in every situation but just because a character is optimised for blasting does not mean it cannot still control, this one deals hp damage insted of summoning but can still throw up an illusion or hammer home a debuff or pop out a haste. Your problem Ciretose seems to be with memorising spells rather than anything else and that is far more a personal point than an optimisation one.
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I just wanted to run through one of the suggested builds above. The sorc1/wizard 19
Crossblooded for the extra damage bonuses.
I'd go with draconic for the first one. That provides +1 damage per die for the appropriate energy type. Let's pick fire to make this easy on me.
For the second bloodline, I'd go with the orc bloodline. It adds 1 point of damage per die rolled.
Grab the Tattooed sorcerer for the varsian tattoo feat and add one caster level to your evocation spells. Pick up magical knack (wizard).
For wizard, pick up admixture school. This gives you 1/2 your wizard level to damage, min +1
At level 1, you'd be looking at burning hands for 2d4+4
At level 2, same spell, 3d4+7
At level 3, same spell, 4d4+9
At level 4, same spell, 5d4+11
We're at the cap for burning hands now. A level 3 wizard has 2nd level spells to choose from now. We're just able to hit scorching ray now.
At level 5, with scorching ray, we're doing 4d6+10 to a single target with scorching ray. Or, we can use that scorching ray slot to cast an intensified burning hands for 6d4+14. The scorching ray is dealing an average of 24 to one target. The burning hands is doing an average of 29 damage in a cone. Burning hands it is, for now.
At level 6, with burning hands, we're doing 7d4+16 damage. Or we get a second scorching ray, dealing 4d6+10 plus 4d6+10 to potentially one target. That's 48 average damage. The burning hands is dealing 33.5 average damage to a group.
At this point, I'm going to decide to go for the maximum damage for a single target. If we're burning groups at this point, they're probably dying by now.
At level 7, scorching ray hardly changes. It's 4d6+11 plus 4d6+11. Burning hands will be doing 8d4+19 or 39 average.
At level 8, we finally move to the fireball. We could have moved there at level 6, but now we have 4th level slots as well. So. A level 8 fireball deals 9d6+21. The fireball is dealing 52.5 damage now. The scorching ray? 4d6+11 and 4d6+11. 50 average damage. It falls below the fireball. But wait! Burning hands intensified and empowered. 13d4+29 damage. 61.5 average damage.
Level 9. Fireball hits its cap at 10d6+24 damage. It's ok though, we've got the slots to intensify it if we want.
Level 10. An intensified fireball deals 11d6+26 damage. Let's just take a step back for a moment though, and revisit burning hands. Right now, we have access to 5th level spells. Burning hands is a 1st level spell. We'll intensify it to 2nd level. Then we'll empower it. That knocks it up to 4th level. The same as an intensified fireball. What's it look like? 15d4+34 damage. Remember, the bloodlines work off number of dice rolled. Our burning hands is dealing 71.5 damage now, as compared to the average 64.5 of our fireball.
Level 11. Intensified fireball is rolling 12d6+29, or 71 average damage. Almost as much as the burning hands.
Level 12. Hello damage spike. We can go with an intensified, empowered fireball now. 19d6+43 damage, or 109.5 average damage. Of course, that's our 6th level slot right there. If we really want to burn our resources up, we can add a quickened first level spell. Another burning hands for 5d4+15. It knocks the total average up to 137... but it's very costly.
Level 13. Fireball is 21d6+48 damage. Toss in another 5d4+16 burning hands if you like. total average damage? A cool 150.
Level 14. More fun! We cap out the intensified fireball dice here. 22d6+50. But we opened up another tier of spells. So let's make that burning hands an intensified burning hands. 10d4+26. Total average? 178
As a point of review, the average hitpoints of a cr 14 creature is 200.
Honestly, an evocation specialist should focus on getting those bonus caster levels wherever he or she can. The caster level ioun stone is only 30k.
at 14th level, the evoker is doing an average of 89% of his opponents health in damage.
at 1st level, the evoker was doing an average of 9 damage against a cr 1's average 10 hitpoints. or 90%.
From 1st level to 14th, there's a 1% drop in average damage. I'm sure that other people can figure out more optimal spell use than I can. Especially since I'm doing this at 7am when I haven't slept for a few days.
Note also that at first level, the wizard/sorc is using 1/3 of his highest spells per day. At 14th level, he's using two of his 6th level spells. He's got one more 6th level slot, one seventh level slot, and all the other slots left open.
Anyhow, sleepy time for me. There are probably errors here somewhere, but they shouldn't be huge glaring ones. I hope.
Ok, I guess im missing something here... I know Intensify Spell lets you bump the damage dice up by 5, but how are you getting 21 die fireballs? Did something change with empower?
14d6 intensified fireball is empowered to 21d6 since it adds half again to the variables and intensify increases the variables by 5 dice.
Thats new to me, our group have never run Empower that way; we allways rolled up the damage and multiplied by 1.5.
Thats new to me, our group have never run Empower that way; we allways rolled up the damage and multiplied by 1.5.
That's right. You still get the same average, though. I was glad to see that bonuses are also added in, now for the empower effect.
Add up your dice + any bonus, then x 1.5. That makes the feat a little more worth it.